Look,
sorry, I don't usually start this class sux, threads but I've been going over the fighter archeypes alot the last few days.
I can't see why you'd take this class.
You give up weapon training completely (other archetypes get an ability that still grants +4 or better bonuses to attack/damage)
You give up armor training completely (other archetypes get an ability that still grants +4 or better bonuses to AC or something quite powerful instead)
All for a (admittedly nice) bonus to saves vs enchantment/mind affecting (which is the only real thing it has going for it) and the ability to reroll a couple of saves.
Doesn't the SAMURAI do this far, far better?
1.He gets challenge damage (Unbrakeable gets no wpn training damage)
2.Can take fighter feats so =/=, and free quickdraw with favorite weapon and +2 Crit confirm
3.Gets inbuilt save rerolls, condition removal (resolve vs die hard and the rest of the Unbreakable features)
4.Gets a Mount and Mounted archer feat. Point to Samurai
5. Gets Banner/Gtr Banner vs Unflinching. Fear and Compulsion Saves vs Saves against mind effecting. I give this one to banner cause it benefits allies as well and you get a reroll.
6.3 selectable Bonus feats vs 9. Point to Fighter.
7. Honourable Stand, Demanding Challenge, Last Stand AND Order vs...what?
Seems if I wanna make a badass warrior who can REALLY take it to the face!, shrug off spells and be an all round badass, SAMURAI does this far better.
So,
Why the hell play an Unbreakable?
Most Fighter archetypes, I can see being ok (in limited fashion) or downright awesome (Dervish for example).
I'm not seeing this one.
I'm inclined to say that some of the earlier classes/arcehtypes were really beta versions of later classes. For instance, oracles were done arguably the way sorcerers should have been done, the magus has abilities that the Eldritch Knight arguably should have had, and the samurai is arguably a better-done version of what they tried to achieve with the unbreakable, with some oriental flavour thrown in for good measure.
The Core monk was arguably this too, until they introduced all the spiffy options in the later books that made the monk awesome. Now if they would just do the same for the sorc and eldritch knight...
Alternatively, I for one really look forward to Pathfinder 2.0.
I dunno dude, but the archetype doesn't appear as crap as you're making it out to be. Just looking over the class you've got a character who simply rocks at not being disabled by enemy casters.
You lose some offensive abilities (weapon training entirely), some defensive abilities (tower shields, armor training 3 & 4), and gain a whole lot of bonus vs. status effects and saving throws. Considering that, as a fighter, status effects and failed saving throws will eff your day up the ability to build a character who can shrug them off efficiently is a really attractive concept.
It's not great for every player/campaign, but it maintains the versatility of the fighter while providing a huge defensive bonus in the fighter's weakest area: saves.
It doesn't look all that bad to me
*You get a total of +5 will vs mind effecting spells,
*1 extra fort save of your choosing 4/day
*to delay a harmful condition for 1 round 1/day
*To recover from fatigued in 15 min
*becomes uneffected by fort or will savs that would normly still effect you with even a sav,
*Just becomes fatigued win exhausted
* May roll twice to recover from ongoing effects and take the best roll
*Becomes immune to mind effecting magic
All in all not bad trades really. And maybe you don't want the mount, the banner and the built in orders of the caviler. {the fact the caviler should be a fighter archetype itself is a moot point}
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Doesn't the SAMURAI do this far, far better?
Seems if I wanna make a badass warrior who can REALLY take it to the face!, shrug off spells and be an all round badass, SAMURAI does this far better.
So,
Why the hell play an Unbreakable?
You might choose the Unbreakable over the Samurai, if you're one of those players who scream "GET YOUR DIRTY STUPID ANIME WUXIA POKEMON ASIAN CRAP OUT OF MY CAREFULLY RESEARCHED, HISTORICALLY ACCURATE MEDIEVAL EUROPEAN SIMULATION, COMPLETE WITH WIZARDS AND TALKING WOLVES!!!1!1!1!!11"
Or if you have to play under a GM who takes the same attitude.
And none of your group are capable of reskinning anything.
CAREFULLY RESEARCHED, HISTORICALLY ACCURATE MEDIEVAL EUROPEAN SIMULATION, COMPLETE WITH WIZARDS AND TALKING WOLVES!!!1!1!1!!11
Indeed! =D
What, there are people who wouldn't take Unbreakable?
I mean, you get to call yourself Unbreakable. What more do you want?
That does seem to be the train of thought Paizo is using for mechanical design these days, doesn't it? :P
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I dunno dude, but the archetype doesn't appear as crap as you're making it out to be. Just looking over the class you've got a character who simply rocks at not being disabled by enemy casters.
You lose some offensive abilities (weapon training entirely), some defensive abilities (tower shields, armor training 3 & 4), and gain a whole lot of bonus vs. status effects and saving throws. Considering that, as a fighter, status effects and failed saving throws will eff your day up the ability to build a character who can shrug them off efficiently is a really attractive concept.
It's not great for every player/campaign, but it maintains the versatility of the fighter while providing a huge defensive bonus in the fighter's weakest area: saves.
THIS - I just made an unbreakable fighter for an 8th level, planes hopping pbp for this exact reason. I knew by this point that casters were going to begin winning the arms race against melee fighters so I wanted to be as resistant to their spell effects as possible. Plus, the flavor of unbreakable was perfect for this character.
For the curious, here is my 8th level unbreakable fighter, Thoroar Silentall
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Because you are cognizant that not all choices are equal and you want to play one?
It doesn't look all that bad to me
*You get a total of +5 will vs mind effecting spells,
*1 extra fort save of your choosing 4/day
*to delay a harmful condition for 1 round 1/day
*To recover from fatigued in 15 min
*becomes uneffected by fort or will savs that would normly still effect you with even a sav,
*Just becomes fatigued win exhausted
* May roll twice to recover from ongoing effects and take the best roll
*Becomes immune to mind effecting magicAll in all not bad trades really. And maybe you don't want the mount, the banner and the built in orders of the caviler. {the fact the caviler should be a fighter archetype itself is a moot point}
VS
*Standard Action to REMOVE Fatigued, Shaken, Sickened, Exhausted, Frightend, Neauseated, Staggered.
*Roll any Fort or Will Save TWICE and Take better result.
* Reduce unconscious to Staggered.
* Negate Critical Hits
Min 10 times a day+More for defeating your challenge.
*Immune to Shaken, Frightened, Panicked, reroll any save and gain Die Hard vs 7Challenge Targets a day.
Seems a bit =/=, however the Samurai gets alot more. I haven't even touched on the Awesome Order of the Warrior or Dragon etc.
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Two months ago, I watched an Unbreakable Fighter/Paladin stand tall where the other three-quarters of the party fled one of the "end-bosses" in Carrion Crown. We all peed our jammies, and he made the save. He continued to stand and fight the thing until our panic faded, and in the end stood remaining with -11 hit points, single-digit con, and had managed to deliver the final blow on the thing. We had to perform major surgery (read: lesser restorations and cure wounds spells) afterwards, but the features of unbreakable allowed him to stand against a very punishing foe, and prevail.
As well as not tracking what has already been printed.
Wow...that's just sad. It must be a roleplaying thing. :P
VS*Standard Action to REMOVE Fatigued, Shaken, Sickened, Exhausted, Frightend, Neauseated, Staggered.
*Roll any Fort or Will Save TWICE and Take better result.
* Reduce unconscious to Staggered.
* Negate Critical Hits
Min 10 times a day+More for defeating your challenge.*Immune to Shaken, Frightened, Panicked, reroll any save and gain Die Hard vs 7Challenge Targets a day.
Seems a bit =/=, however the Samurai gets alot more. I haven't even touched on the Awesome Order of the Warrior or Dragon etc.
And again that comes with baggage I may not want. I may not want preselected archery feats or to be mounted or have an order. A feat per level goes a long, long way to building just what I want.
I love the samurai archetype, it is well done, but it may not be what I want. Unbreakable is a way to get some of that, without having to take a class I really may not want to play and does not fit my concept.
Unbreakable is nice. If you didn´t notice, Paizo decided that they had done enough ´Fighting Style´ Archetypes... You know, the ones where you get even better in one style (which the game encourages you to do anyways) in exchange for Weapon Training versatility and Armor Training. So this was one of their ´let´s develop an Archetype extending A DIFFERENT ASPECT OF FIGHTERS´. Namely, Bravery in this case. Some people decide that they don`t need even bigger numbers to attack/dmg (Weapon Focus) or need to Tumble in heavy Armor (Armor Training) but what Unbreakable grants is their sort of thing.
The Archetype gives you stuff that Samurai can´t compare too.
...Negating effects which happen even on failed Saves!?
You probably can make the case that Samurai as a whole gets more stuff. (mostly irrelevant to Unbreakable trope)
The real question is: can they pass appropriate CR challenges, such as found in Paizo APs?
I haven`t seen anybody complain that they can`t do that.
One reason: Evil emo unbreakable gladiator gnome with purple-black hairs as an antagonist in a performance combat.
The the players they have to win the crowd in an arena or they all get executed. (And be sure to prepare another way for them to escape, just in case)
Let him, after foreshadowing The Evil Champion (tm) and after a lot of cheers and drums rolls, enter the arena through a gigantic door with a couple of goons. Let your players take a laugh at him.
Them show them how making all saves, having a charisma bonus and owning the crowd is not good for them. Have him play with them like a cat do with mices.
And just enjoy being evil.
Because it is one of the best single level dips in the game; diehard at level one is very, very good. Half orc barbarians trying for the deathless chain need to circle this class in pen.
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I'd say that the Unbreakable archetype, as it stands, is perfectly balanced for the flavor it represents. If you're going for damage per round, it's not for you. But if you're sick and tired of having your character yanked around by mind control and status effects, and want someone who can take a lickin' and keep on tickin', you might want to make an Unbreakable. This time, when the mind-flayer tries to blast your consciousness into oblivion before eating your brain, you just give him the finger and then head-butt him to death.
GT
...to Tumble in heavy Armor (Armor Training) but what Unbreakable grants is their sort of thing.
Unbreakable Fighters can Acrobatics in heavy armor... they get up to Armor Training 2.
"Pass the dip..." - Summoner
For when you absolutely, positively can't afford to pass out.
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I dunno. Both the samurai and the unbreakable classes actually seem fairly independent to me (having just read over both of them). The main difference is that a samurai is most effective during mounted combat, and while fairly resilient, that's not their main purpose.
An Unbreakable on the other hand compensates the DPR of a standard fighter to help alleviate the fighter's biggest (and some might even argue only) weak spot: the low will save. If you only have one fighter and an enemy casts charm person on them...that's a bad sign right there. But an Unbreakable Fighter can stand his ground a lot more consistently than a normal fighter. That aside, as Gorbacz stated previously, a Fighter still gets bonus feats up the wazoo as usual, he just isn't nearly as combat effective anymore. On the other hand he has less to fear from spellcasters.
Thing is, samurai have too much baggage. Some DMs might not have an asian-themed area in their world, and thus samurai might make no sense. Or perhaps the GM is big on dungeon-crawls. A mount's not nearly as good in a confined environment. The thing is, in terms of balance, the two classes are fairly even. Unbreakable gets the feats, samurai gets the banner and challange, they both get fairly similar defensive abilities against magic. Its all a matter of what you want and what materials you have to work with.
Personally, i think an Unbreakable is most useful in a heavily magic campaign where you want to play a fighter. And I mean fighter the class,. as in, I want more feats than all my party put together. But you'd be at a severe disadvantage when over 80% of the bad guys sling effects against your weakest save. In which case, this is the answer.
Remember the intention of archetypes was to adapt certain character ideas towards different goals. This is a good example. Besides, samurai are supposed to be more support-based, while these guys are more front-line or whatever. i dunno, I wouldn't go for either one, but they seem equal to me.
Because you're Bruce Willis?
Wow. Necro.
I'm playing a Samurai in crimson throne. Not a mounted friendly campaign.
I'm building towards Deadly Stroke (double challange damage ftw) and I kick ass.
Resolve and By my honor mean I haven't sucked a spell/poison yet.
An unbreakable would do ok but I'm seeing this as a dip for Mike schnider's Deathless chain barbarian.
If your looking Mike, what was the build again? Not sure if it works but it looks awesome.
All the pizzaz aside, Unbreakable is still a Fighter, so you get your truckload of feats to customize yourself how you see fit, unlike the pigeon-holed Samurai.
Exactly. I play a Samurai and it's a great class but you do have to work within fairly narrow constraints (esp. since there is only one archetype currently available).
My impression is that the Unbreakable Fighter is a great chassis for building a tough, brawling SOB (at the cost of weapon training and armor training 3+).
this was only rough. in a hurry
Dwarf, take glory of old trait and steel soul feat at 1st level. You now have +5 vs spells (same as +5cloak of resist). this will stack with the unbreakable will save bonus.
this frees up your cloak slot for cloak of displacement.
Take blind fight and then moonlight stalker and stop there.
Unbreakable sux beacause it completely loses weapon training. but you are a fighter. you need +'s to hit and damage or you suck. They are hard to kill. but why would an enemy bother when even the cleric hits harder?
We need to fix that.
1- Steel soul, weapon focus (Naodachi- martial eastern weapon)
2- Cleave
3- Blindfight
4- Weapon Spl, retrain cleave for combat expertise
5- Stalwart
6- stepup
7- following step
8- Gtr Weapon Focus
9- Critical Focus
10- Moonlight Stalker
11- Pindown
12- Improved Stalwart
13- Staggering Crit
14- Crit Mastery
15- Gtr weapon spl
16-
17- Stunning Crit
+2 moonlight stalker (comes online as soon as you get the cloak.)
+2 gtr weapon focus(gtr wpn spl)
Go two handed. Wear Adamantine Fullplate.
so you get +4 to hit and +6 to damage. (you no longer suck at killing stuff) and you get all the Save negation stuff the unbreakable has.
You can pin foes and kill them via stepup and pindown
It should be noted though the Lore warden is far better for moonlight stalker. with it I can get:
+10 to hit and +12 damage with 0 buffing. +18 on cmb and cmd (strength surge barbs will cry)
Saves are still good via dwarf/trait/steel soul
Cloak gives miss chance....
Other than damage?
Fighter!
The whole other than damage, I could see, if you were playing a Brawler or Lore Warden or Tactician.
Unbreakable's abilities only make you better at taking it to the face!
Sounds nice but if you are not a threat, you are ignored.
The build i posted between Heavy Armor, Improved Stalwart for DR, is a tank.
Thing is Tanks are supposed to have a big gun!!!
Like i said, was in a rush.
Maybe move stuff around. Sickening crit is ok.
Unbreakable is a trope (not meant to insult, I like the trope).
He/she doesn't have to be the stongest or fastest or he doesn't have to deal the most damage or have the most attacks.
But, they are relentless. They will not stop, nor break. They are meant to be the "last man standing".
Villains, comment... "Why won't you fall?!" They draw aggression, which is a main "tank function". They can keep the enemy busy longer, especially with a nice buffed AC.
Now, while they keep the enemy busy, hopefully the party is made up in a manner that can take advantage of that... rogues flanking for sneak damage, spellcaster debuffs, archer shooting into melee. He buys time for strategy.
Typically, I find people "panic" and shoot their wad (non-optimized), before the stage is properly set. because they're afraid to be hit and go down. So everyoe just piles on. The Unbreakable is a nice chew-toy for the bad guys.
That said, yes they are Fighters and can be customized in several different ways for several different styles of play... some optimized (is optimized the new min-max?), some not. There are those who stress RP (role-play instead of roll-play).
Now, their "class features" are kinda blah. I'll agree there. But, again... not everyone has high Charisma and can dip 2 levels into Paladin for AWESOME Will Saves. So, the bonuses are gradual and non-attribute specific.
I would have more enjoyed: Broken Wing Gambit, Deft Stand, Catch Off-Guard, Disruptive, Fast Healer as part of the base Unbreakable archetype.
I'm thinking about taking a dip into it with my alchemist. He'll be able to go to well below -25 hit points and keep fighting. Sure, that probably means he'll die young, but such is the life of the reckless adventurer.
I'm thinking about taking a dip into it with my alchemist. He'll be able to go to well below -25 hit points and keep fighting. Sure, that probably means he'll die young, but such is the life of the reckless adventurer.
Its not really a justification for the archetype in general I guess, but when considering an EK with one level fighter, I was highly tempted to take unbreakable for the same reason stated above. As long as I'm going to be sticking my neck out with lower hp and lighter armor...
Lvl dip to enter horizon walker, living monolith, or other endurance/die hard needing prestige classes or feat chains. Also, stalwart.
I have a Barb/Magus going into unbreakable so he can nab stalwart and go into living mono. He's a spire magus, might pick up 3 lvls of horizon walker to always double his dr (desert immunity!)
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i could see an unbreakable as a pin down or a trip fighter. something designed to stop people from moving while your teammates dpr the target down. you have an insane number of hp, with deathless + regeneration (ring), so if you could stop teleportation, they have a feat for this, and prevent movement through your squares, combat patrol, you could make this archetype awesome.
my rule of combat is "i dont need to hit for 500 points of damage a round, if my team mates do it for me" basically i just need to fufill a role for my group and stopping things from getting to my teammates seems like a very important one.
holy crap and i just thought how crazy you could make a character if you added 6 levels of paladin to the mix. with fey foundling, or what ever that feat is called, sheesh you would be a beast.
I had an idea for an alchemist that uses the Deathless line of feats as well but was going to use Barbarian for his dip rather than fighter as Rage stacks so nicely with Mutagens and the Deathless feats. I did, however, also give Unbreakable serious consideration on the one level dip. Those two feats are very nice if they were going to be included in your build anyway. Endurance is usually a "wasted" feat so getting it for free is highly beneficial.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5uw0?Dark-Knight-Prestige-Class
An Unbreakable Fighter gets Endurance and Diehard for free in place of the 1st level Bonus Feat, so you only need to devote one feat to qualifying for the class.
You want to play a pain taster and grab all the whip talent feats.
I'm planning an unbreakable with Ranger dip for my Orc enforcer build.
With the new feat orc weapon expertise you can deal one point of nonlethal in addition to yout normal damage when using an orc weapon.
One point is enough for enforcer.
And as I see my orc, he has to be tough as nails, so the unbreakable seems perfect.
More so as I absolutely want to have armor training 1 and the other interesting archetypes lose it.
it's definitely an interesting combo, not an 'offensive style specialist' and not for anybody who thinks they NEED weapon training for offensive effectiveness, but retaining armor training 2 (+2 AC and tumbling in heavy armor) getting crucial will save bonus and re-rolls/immunities, along with the very nice negation of spell effects that would normally work even on a Save... all that makes a nice combo.