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Reading the Core rules I found this, which I never paid much attention to...
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a f ighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one.
So the question is, do the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies granted by the class count as "bonus" feats? Can a fighter exchange heavy Armor Proficiency for a new Bonus feat?
No -- he doesn't have the heavy armor proficiency feat he simply has proficiency with heavy armor.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Reading the Core rules I found this, which I never paid much attention to...
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a f ighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one.So the question is, do the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies granted by the class count as "bonus" feats? Can a fighter exchange heavy Armor Proficiency for a new Bonus feat?
Note that the name of the class feature you're reading is actually called "Bonus Feats". The gaining and the replacing of feats is all part of a single package - the "Bonus Feats" class feature. You can only use the class feature to replace feats gained via said class feature.
No -- he doesn't have the heavy armor proficiency feat he simply has proficiency with heavy armor.
Always thought that was getting the feat.
No -- he doesn't have the heavy armor proficiency feat he simply has proficiency with heavy armor.Always thought that was getting the feat.
Nope -- just like racial proficiencies with the weapon it's 'automatic' with the class. It's not "you gain light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency and heavy armor proficiency as bonus feats" it's simply "you are proficient in these armors".
Elves are proficient in rapier, long sword, longbow and short bow. They don't have proficiency feats in these, they are just proficient.
Much like a skill bonus isn't skill ranks these are feats they are just proficiencies.
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No -- he doesn't have the heavy armor proficiency feat he simply has proficiency with heavy armor.Always thought that was getting the feat.Nope -- just like racial proficiencies with the weapon it's 'automatic' with the class. It's not "you gain light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency and heavy armor proficiency as bonus feats" it's simply "you are proficient in these armors".
Elves are proficient in rapier, long sword, longbow and short bow. They don't have proficiency feats in these, they are just proficient.
Much like a skill bonus isn't skill ranks these are feats they are just proficiencies.
Actually, they do get the Heavy Armor Proficiency Feat.
You are skilled at wearing heavy armor.
Prerequisites: Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency.
Benefit: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Normal: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Special: Fighters and paladins automatically have Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
Emphasis mine.
Well let me reassess my position and get back to you all tomorrow then.
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Reading the Core rules I found this, which I never paid much attention to...
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a f ighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one.So the question is, do the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies granted by the class count as "bonus" feats? Can a fighter exchange heavy Armor Proficiency for a new Bonus feat?
Good question, especially with your later quot eof the Heavy Armor Profiency text, but my understanding is it only refers to the feats that you have a choice of gaining, the ones gained at 1st level, 2nd level, and every even numbered level thereafter as "Bonus Feats" in the level-up table.
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Good question, especially with your later quot eof the Heavy Armor Profiency text, but my understanding is it only refers to the feats that you have a choice of gaining, the ones gained at 1st level, 2nd level, and every even numbered level thereafter as "Bonus Feats" in the level-up table.Reading the Core rules I found this, which I never paid much attention to...
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a f ighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one.So the question is, do the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies granted by the class count as "bonus" feats? Can a fighter exchange heavy Armor Proficiency for a new Bonus feat?
The RAI is definitely the feats from the Bonus Feats Class Feature, but the RAW may allow it. The deciding factor is if the bonus feats mentioned in the clause are only the ones from the Bonus Feats Class feature, or any and all Bonus feats. With a reading of the latter definition, you could theoretically retrain ranger or monk bonus feats if you were to take 4 levels in Fighter. I would rule that this would not be allowed, although YMMV.
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The RAI is definitely the feats from the Bonus Feats Class Feature, but the RAW may allow it. The deciding factor is if the bonus feats mentioned in the clause are only the ones from the Bonus Feats Class feature, or any and all Bonus feats. With a reading of the latter definition, you could theoretically retrain ranger or monk bonus feats if you were to take 4 levels in Fighter. I would rule that this would not be allowed, although YMMV.Good question, especially with your later quot eof the Heavy Armor Profiency text, but my understanding is it only refers to the feats that you have a choice of gaining, the ones gained at 1st level, 2nd level, and every even numbered level thereafter as "Bonus Feats" in the level-up table.Reading the Core rules I found this, which I never paid much attention to...
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a f ighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one.So the question is, do the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies granted by the class count as "bonus" feats? Can a fighter exchange heavy Armor Proficiency for a new Bonus feat?The Heavy Armor Pro feat states that fighters and paladins automatically HAVE the feat, not that they automatically LEARN it. Also, they are not getting the bonus feat through the Fighter's 'Bonus Feat' class feature, they are getting the feat as a bonus simply because they are a member of the Fighter class.
Also, if the feat replacement rule appears under the Fighter's 'Bonus Feat' class feature heading, I'd say that the replacement rule only applies to feats 'learned' through the Fighter's 'Bonus Feat' class feature.
This would be my reading as well. I would never think of allowing any feats but those to be retrained.
Ehh, you can retrain your bonus feats, and it states fighters gain it as a bonus feat.
I'd rule RAW it's doable, but houserule it out if I where gming most likely.
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Ehh, you can retrain your bonus feats, and it states fighters gain it as a bonus feat.
I'd rule RAW it's doable, but houserule it out if I where gming most likely.
I was about to state that. I can see, with justification, that a GM could allow it. Heavy Armor Proficiency is a bonus for the base class, but as we have see with all the new archetypes out there, there is always room for change.
Say you have a fighter that is built around speed and agility. Why should they be penalized for having a feat they never use?
Again, there would have to be good justification and I wouldn't let a player do this more than once [i.e. they couldn't replace their Shield Proficiency at lvl 8].
Now, as a really mean GM, I would then give the party a set of Agile Platemail at some time.....
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If you check the table for feats in the core book, there is an * next to many feats. At the bottom of the table there is this:
* This is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat
If you look, none of the armor, simple weapon, or martial weapon proficiencies have the *. They are not bonus feats for the fighter, but free feats that are granted at first level.
the text for the fighter bonus feats also backs this up:
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
So, even if the fighter takes a combat feat as a regular feat as he levels, he cannot swap it out later. Only the bonus feats granted by the class ability can be swapped out.
I was about to start ranting about how fighters now have no excuse for not trading out Martial Weapon "bonus feats" at 4 8 12 16 and 20 for better ones, but under Martial Weapon Proficiency
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.
So maybe you could argue trading out Armor Profs, but I think RAW* the Retraining is meant for Bonus Feats you pick up via the fighter progression, not armor prof, Human Bonus Feat, or Feats you gain as your level increases.
*: Edit
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If you check the table for feats in the core book, there is an * next to many feats. At the bottom of the table there is this:
* This is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat
If you look, none of the armor, simple weapon, or martial weapon proficiencies have the *. They are not bonus feats for the fighter, but free feats that are granted at first level.
the text for the fighter bonus feats also backs this up:
So, even if the fighter takes a combat feat as a regular feat as he levels, he cannot swap it out later. Only the bonus feats granted by the class ability can be swapped out.Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Nice catch. I think I would still let it happen if they could explain why. But only has a houserule.
Ok so now I am very confused does this mean that a fighter at 3rd gains armor Training AND any feat with an * next to it (like for arguments sake improved unarmed strike)?????
Ok so now I am very confused does this mean that a fighter at 3rd gains armor Training AND any feat with an * next to it (like for arguments sake improved unarmed strike)?????
No, you only get the bonus feats at even levels, with the exception of 1st. Of course, don't forget about the feat that every character gets at third (and every odd) level.
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I think Happler's answer is the correct interpretation of the RAW.
As GM you have the final say in your game though - maybe have your player review the available class 'archetypes' and see what's available that fits what he is looking for? In the very least you will probably see what the game designers feel is an adequate substitution for Heavy Armor Proficiency... If I recall correclty there is an archetype that forgoes heavy armour...
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I think Happler's answer is the correct interpretation of the RAW.
As GM you have the final say in your game though - maybe have your player review the available class 'archetypes' and see what's available that fits what he is looking for? In the very least you will probably see what the game designers feel is an adequate substitution for Heavy Armor Proficiency... If I recall correclty there is an archetype that forgoes heavy armour...
There are probably several that trade out various armor and shield proficiencies for other things.
The Lore Warden archetype, from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, for example, gives up medium & heavy armor, and shield, and gets extra skill points and a bunch of additional class skills, along with gaining Combat Expertise at second level as a free feat.