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A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.
.....He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
Now the issue is this, that by the rules if a monk is wearing armor he can't flurry. Being proficient in it does nothing to remove that penalty. I think this needs errata.
bump
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The Sohei's "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" class feature modifies and supercedes the vanilla monk's one. So the line about "when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities" doesn't apply anymore.
The Sohei's "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" class feature modifies and supercedes the vanilla monk's one. So the line about "when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities" doesn't apply anymore.
Good job with the logic and reading skills.
The Sohei's "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" class feature modifies and supercedes the vanilla monk's one. So the line about "when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities" doesn't apply anymore.
I am 100% sure that was the intent however in order for a rule to officially change it has to be stated. There is no such statement.
The Sohei's "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" class feature modifies and supercedes the vanilla monk's one. So the line about "when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities" doesn't apply anymore.I am 100% sure that was the intent however in order for a rule to officially change it has to be stated. There is no such statement.
Each base class in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game draws upon a central idea, a basic concept representing Classes from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter’s weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue’s +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn’t jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
He's right -- it's replaced not changed. As such the text needed is gone.
The Sohei's "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" class feature modifies and supercedes the vanilla monk's one. So the line about "when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities" doesn't apply anymore.I am 100% sure that was the intent however in order for a rule to officially change it has to be stated. There is no such statement.He's right -- it's replaced not changed. As such the text needed is gone.
Each base class in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game draws upon a central idea, a basic concept representing Classes from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter’s weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue’s +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn’t jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
Who is right and why?
As I understand things the original class rules apply unless they are overruled. A monk getting proficiency in and of itself or from another class only means the monk is proficient in armor. Neither case dismisses the rule for a monk not losing certain class features.
When you look at the Magus archetypes that or change armor, they include text about arcane spell failure.
I take this to mean that if they had meant for the sohei to not be able to use their class abilities that are explicitly listed under the sohei archetype as possible for the sohei to do, they would have said so.
When you look at the Magus archetypes that or change armor, they include text about arcane spell failure.
I take this to mean that if they had meant for the sohei to not be able to use their class abilities that are explicitly listed under the sohei archetype as possible for the sohei to do, they would have said so.
I dont get the first sentence.
Did you mean to say " When you look at the Magus archetypes that change armor, they include text about arcane spell failure."?If so give an example.
In my opinion they didn't include the text about losing class abilities while in armor because he doesn't lose class abilities in armor. It's not a case of 'we forgot to include this line' its a case of 'this ability replaces the first ability -- unless stated otherwise it replaces the ability in its entirety'.
Please note the staff magus:
A staff magus is proficient with simple weapons only. He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a magus wearing medium armor or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
This replaces the normal magus weapon and armor proficiency feature.
compared to the normal magus:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A magus is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. A magus is also proficient with light armor. He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a magus wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Staff magus has the exact same lines about ASF because it's replacing the ability.
Sohei does the same thing -- he's not proficient with monk weapons at all. He's only proficient with simple, and martial weapons as well as light armor. The monk's unarmed strike is a separate class feature from his proficiencies.
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There is not one single word in the text of Sohei that modifies Flurry of Blows.
-- A sohei cannot Flurry while (a) wearing armor, or (b) using a non-appropriate weapon. Because that's how FoB is limited, per text, in monk.
Proficiency has nothing to do with it.
If the intent was otherwise, then it should be FAQ'd immediately.
(The real reason to play a sohei is to hold your nose and suck until 6th level, until you can flurry with a lance.)
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There is not one single word in the text of Sohei that modifies Flurry of Blows.
-- A sohei cannot Flurry while (a) wearing armor, or (b) using a non-appropriate weapon. Because that's how FoB is limited, per text, in monk.
Proficiency has nothing to do with it.
If the intent was otherwise, then it should be FAQ'd immediately.
(FWIW, I hate "trapternatives" like this which lead you on until you're told later that your build is worthless and doesn't work. I.e., why even bother giving a sohei all these proficiencies if he can't use them?)
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
So me the line in that where it says that a monk cannot flurry of blows in armor.
You can't. Why? Because it's not there, instead it's here:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
What gets replaced by the Sohei?
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.
Finally we have this ability:
Weapon Training (Ex)
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon.
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In my opinion they didn't include the text about losing class abilities while in armor because he doesn't lose class abilities in armor. It's not a case of 'we forgot to include this line' its a case of 'this ability replaces the first ability -- unless stated otherwise it replaces the ability in its entirety'.
Please note the staff magus:
A staff magus is proficient with simple weapons only. He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a magus wearing medium armor or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
This replaces the normal magus weapon and armor proficiency feature.
compared to the normal magus:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A magus is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. A magus is also proficient with light armor. He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a magus wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.Staff magus has the exact same lines about ASF because it's replacing the ability.
Sohei does the same thing -- he's not proficient with monk weapons at all. He's only proficient with simple, and martial weapons as well as light armor. The monk's unarmed strike is a separate class feature from his proficiencies.
I see the issue now
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.
Because the monk is not called out as losing his class features while wearing armor he does not lose them for this archetype, but it should have been worded in such a way as to state that the penalty is now gone for ease of understanding.
edit:clarification.
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There is not one single word in the text of Sohei that modifies Flurry of Blows.
-- A sohei cannot Flurry while (a) wearing armor, or (b) using a non-appropriate weapon. Because that's how FoB is limited, per text, in monk.
Proficiency has nothing to do with it.
If the intent was otherwise, then it should be FAQ'd immediately.
(The real reason to play a sohei is to hold your nose and suck until 6th level, until you can flurry with a lance.)
Writing in big shiny letters and italics doesn't make you more right.
Sohei proficiencies are not the monk's, including the absence of penalty for not being able to use FoB, period.Because sure, the intended design was obviously to make you suck during half the game for most campaigns.
Because the monk is not called out as losing his class features while wearing armor he does not lose them for this archetype, but it should have been worded in such a way as to state that the penalty is now gone for ease of understanding.
This I agree with. Real exceptions like this one should be highlighted. Even if the rules assume you'll understand it correctly, some class features are assumed to work a definite way by a lot of players, and this leads to understandable misinterpretations. If I didn't read a similar topic with the "class feature is TOTALLY changed" explanation, I would probably have missed it...
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Because sure, the intended design was obviously to make you suck during half the game for most campaigns.Really?
Look at Titan Mauler, and tell me that's never true.
Using one of the few examples that no rules lawyer can make useful doesn't serve as a true comparison with an archetype where the better explaination is also the better : here, that like any archetype, the class feature simply changes and doesn't include the FoB limitation anymore.
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If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue’s +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.He's right -- it's replaced not changed. As such the text needed is gone.
The operative word is "replace" -- many GMs (and players) are going to look at sohei and conclude that it only replaces the middle sentence (of three) of the monk's standard WaAP, and there's nothing in the game-system which explicitly advises them otherwise.
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APG page 72.
There is not one single word in the text of Sohei that modifies Flurry of Blows.
-- A bunch of stuff...
Abraham, you just changed my mind on this and I'm not sure I like it.... But I think your interpretation is both correct and hard to refute.
Abraham, you just changed my mind on this and I'm not sure I like it.... But I think your interpretation is both correct and hard to refute.There is not one single word in the text of Sohei that modifies Flurry of Blows.
-- A bunch of stuff...
What can I say... I'm sorry? To be far Maxximilius said it first, I simply pointed out all the references that proves the point.
6 levels of this before going fighter would rock really hard.
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(I think it's just precious the way drive-by readers mark "Favorite" one-line cryptic responses. Well, thanks for, uh, sharing....
Anyway:
APG page 72.The operative word is "replace" -- many GMs (and players) are going to look at sohei and conclude that it only replaces the middle sentence (of three) of the monk's standard WaAP, and there's nothing in the game-system which explicitly advises them otherwise.If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue’s +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.He's right -- it's replaced not changed. As such the text needed is gone.
Well, given that the italicized quoting above to which I responded is the very same APG72 you're alerting me to....*ahem*.
-- The text is not explicit in that the entirety of an entry is replaced.
Tell me: do you think that GMs watching a sohei flurrying for four two-hander martial-weapon attacks (three Flurry + one Ki) at 6th level at no worse than fighter-esque TWF attack-bonus -- while enjoying armor, evasion and high will saves on top of it -- won't be Hell-bent to nerf this broken archetype as far up the butt medieval-style as possible?
I know I would be, because permitting it unrestricted means every other melee PC at the table is hopelessly outclassed.
(Not to mention that Sohei is in Ultimate Combat; and the player of a sohei at a PFS table is not required to own the APG; and the judge might not have it either. -- I hate to appear pedantic about these issues, but these sorts of maddeningly unspecific rules have enormous significance in PFS. This is particularly the case with archetype features since they potentially affects literally thousands of characters in the campaign.)
I never considered that a monk would be able to flurry in armor, Abraham makes a good point here but it isn't all that obvious. Paizo should have mentioned this very significant piece of information in the sohei's description I think, the fact that it is not there makes me doubt wether it was the intention to allow FoB in armor, also the logic as stated by Abraham would mean that a single level dip in fighter would allow you to FoB and use monk abilities in heavy armor.. I am not at all sure that is the intent.
possibly even better is a level dip or two in monk before going another heavy armored warrior class.
I never considered that a monk would be able to flurry in armor, Abraham makes a good point here but it isn't all that obvious. Paizo should have mentioned this very significant piece of information in the sohei's description I think, the fact that it is not there makes me doubt wether it was the intention to allow FoB in armor, also the logic as stated by Abraham would mean that a single level dip in fighter would allow you to FoB and use monk abilities in heavy armor.. I am not at all sure that is the intent.
possibly even better is a level dip or two in monk before going another heavy armored warrior class.
Not quite the archetype replaces the monks prof. Fighter merely adds to it not replaces it.
Not quite the archetype replaces the monks prof. Fighter merely adds to it not replaces it.I never considered that a monk would be able to flurry in armor, Abraham makes a good point here but it isn't all that obvious. Paizo should have mentioned this very significant piece of information in the sohei's description I think, the fact that it is not there makes me doubt wether it was the intention to allow FoB in armor, also the logic as stated by Abraham would mean that a single level dip in fighter would allow you to FoB and use monk abilities in heavy armor.. I am not at all sure that is the intent.
possibly even better is a level dip or two in monk before going another heavy armored warrior class.
Ofcourse the fighter proficiency section doesn't mention monk limitations at all by default, that was my point. Since the sohei would delete the limitation not just for light armor but any kind of armor that might be beyond the intention of the developers, certainly a fighter/sohei can attain scary high AC easily, though I am doubting it will be unbalanced really, just wondering wether it was an intentional consequence of the archetype.
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[...] would mean that a single level dip in fighter would allow you to FoB and use monk abilities in heavy armor.. I am not at all sure that is the intent.
"When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities."
"AC Bonus (Ex) : When unarmored and unencumbered..."
"A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor."
"Monastic Mount (Su): [...] This ability replaces fast movement and increased unarmed damage."
=> With 1 level dip in fighter and within a heavy armor, even though you have the class feature, you don't get the AC bonuses. By being a sohei, you plainly don't get the fast movement class feature.
So the only thing you can still use is Flurry of Blows.
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Tell me: do you think that GMs watching a sohei flurrying for four two-hander martial-weapon attacks (three Flurry + one Ki) at 6th level at no worse than fighter-esque TWF attack-bonus -- while enjoying armor, evasion and high will saves on top of it --
Two-hander is irrelevant, during a flurry a monk applies only his strength bonus, not 1-1/2 this bonus, even with a two-handed weapon.
They may enjoy armor, but they don't get their AC bonus when wearing one.
Evasion may only be used in light or no armor, so at best, a sohei will be using a mithral chainmail, or simply wear nothing and still have a better AC.
Armored flurry is irrelevant. It's not much different than fighting with the TWF feat when multiclassed with fighter. That it stacks is irrelevant. The designer of the archetype and/or the developers built in a handicap by not allowing it on weapons until level 6. None of this is game changing in a significant way.
The monk's WIS bonus to AC is a potential issue. Not that it works; by itself it's fine. The Sohei would simply have a higher AC than than his companions. This is not unacceptable on a class that is largely built on defensive abilities (the monk and it's archetypes).
The bonus is an issue because of SAD divine casters. Every min/maxed Cleric and Druid from here on out would be dumb Not to take a dip level of Sohei. It's not broken it's cheesy and an unnecessary boost to classes that already step on the toes of other classes.
Put simply a cleric with a chain shirt now has a higher AC than a cleric with a breastplate and gets to sidestep one of the few class limits that are built in, reduced speed from armor. Druids even worse, as reduced armor options were their handicap.
This is what I do not like about this.
I actually am a proponent of lightly armored monks.
In my mind there is very little difference between padded armor and winter clothing or furs as far as weight, mobility and encumbrance goes. I've always accepted the monks lack of armor as a check on multiclassing.
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Tell me: do you think that GMs watching a sohei flurrying for four two-hander martial-weapon attacks (three Flurry + one Ki) at 6th level at no worse than fighter-esque TWF attack-bonus -- while enjoying armor, evasion and high will saves on top of it --Two-hander is irrelevant, during a flurry a monk applies only his strength bonus, not 1-1/2 this bonus, even with a two-handed weapon.
Yeah, but he can Power Attack twice as hard as the fighter having half his attacks, and with a good martial sword or polearm instead of a crappy staff. Give him a fauchard or falchion and he's a slaughter-machine with four attacks. (Afterwards, he goes Cavalier, takes Horse Lord for a full AC-mount at 11th, and is multiplying Challenge bonus in a 15-20 threat two-hander used in a Ki/Flurry.)
If that doesn't make you nauseous, skin him as an archer who gets to ignore all of the limitations reigning in a Zen archer, and watch him Flurry/Rapid/Manyshot/Ki/Haste/WeaponTraining/DuelingGloves with a bow. (He can have it all by 8th as a sohei6/fight2.)
Yikes.
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Zag, you need to read the Monk's AC bonus text.
There is nothing in the Sohei that counter-acts the Monk's AC bonus being lost in Armor. A Sohei has his Wisdom to AC when out of armor (which is cool for political functions or sailing or whatnot) but it doesn't change his armored AC.
If you only dip 6 into sohei, you don't care about that anyway because wisdom won't be a prime stat; you'll be wearing mithral breastplate or celestial armor.
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Yeah, but he can Power Attack twice as hard as the fighter having half his attacks, and with a good martial sword or polearm instead of a crappy staff. Give him a fauchard or falchion and he's a slaughter-machine with four attacks. (Afterwards, he goes Cavalier, takes Horse Lord for a full AC-mount at 11th, and is multiplying Challenge bonus in a 15-20 threat two-hander used in a Ki/Flurry.)
He can still do this without armor and with a better AC at mid-to-high levels, which was originally the subject of incomprehension highlighted in this topic. So, nothing new under the sun.
Is the Sohei good ? In my humble opinion, it's one of the most underrated archetypes from the last books. But I admit that some clarification wouldn't be luxury.|
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The attacks/round disparity will be most acute in the mid-levels.
A melee character with Evasion, high AC, no saving-throw weaknesses, and Power Attack and Combat Reflexes with a fauchard for four attacks (three primary) at 6th level is going to utterly cake-walk if not outright solo almost every single PFS module ever written for his tier, and could probably breeze through "playing up" as well.
No other archetype in the game can make even three let alone four two-hander attacks with a better-than-monk-junk weapon at 6th.
The attacks/round disparity will be most acute in the mid-levels.
A melee character with Evasion, high AC, no saving-throw weaknesses, and Power Attack and Combat Reflexes with a fauchard for four attacks (three primary) at 6th level is going to utterly cake-walk if not outright solo almost every single PFS module ever written for his tier, and could probably breeze through "playing up" as well.
No other archetype in the game can make even three let alone four two-hander attacks with a better-than-monk-junk weapon at 6th.
How are you getting 4 attacks at 6th level?
Edit i assume your mean Ki pool usage but if thats the case we can include the wildrager under three two handed attacks a round.
Edit i assume your mean Ki pool usage but if thats the case we can include the wildrager under three two handed attacks a round.WRs have so much baggage that they're almost unplayable (or at least un-play-with-able). A sohei has no apparent weaknesses at all in exchange for his uber awesomeness.
3/4th BAB if they move, still probably wearing light armor even if they can wear better, still somewhat MAD though not as much.
And the Wildrager is fine as long as you have a responsible player behind the wheel.
His AC will be alright... but it's not going to be great. Armor is going to limit his Dexterity and it still not going to include his wisdom (which is stated as only applying when unarmored).
He's a lightly armored unit with good saves that has some heavy hit power. Don't surround him, make him move to you and hammer him with full attacks when he does.
I would be more worried if the Sohei took ranged weapons with weapon training after some fighter levels but even then he's only so dangerous (and certainly no more so than a zen archer).
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I would be more worried if the Sohei took ranged weapons with weapon training after some fighter levels but even then he's only so dangerous (and certainly no more so than a zen archer).Look back several posts of mine:
If that doesn't make you nauseous, skin him as an archer who gets to ignore all of the limitations reigning in a Zen archer, and watch him Flurry/Rapid/Manyshot/Ki/Haste/WeaponTraining/DuelingGloves with a bow. (He can have it all by 8th as a sohei6/fight2.)
Yikes.
A sohei archer leaves a Zen archer in the dust. At 8th, not counting Ki, a Zen (monk8) with WF+WS is....
+7/+7/+2/+2
...whereas a Sohei (monk6/[rang2 or figh2]) with WF+WT+Gloves is....
+8(x2)/+8/+8/+3
The Sohei is not prohibited from using Rapid Shot or Manyshot while flurrying with a bow, and the fact that he gets Weapon Training means he can amplify it with Gloves of Dueling. (He's also doing d8+3(WT) dmg per arrow versus the Zen's d10+2(WS) at 8th; the Zen does not pull ahead damage/arrow-wise until 12th.)
A Sohei does not lose any flurry-able monk weapons, while a Zen can exclusively only flurry with a bow. A Zen must keep his Wisdom up, because he depends upon it for AC; a Sohei is happy with a 12 or 14 and starts with uber DEX. At 9th, a sohei6/fighter[weapon master]3 has Weapon Training in one specific weapon and one category of weapons, and can Flurry with all of them plus the monk ones (so the thing to do is take bows with Weapon Master and a category with Sohei for maximum flexibility).
-- You know that a new archetype is broken when it can use a certain weapon demonstrably more effectively than an established archetype of the same class specifically intended to use that particular weapon, and the new archetype has none of the penalties the weapon-specific archetype was saddled with to rein in its power-potential. This is particularly the case when the established archetype is already regarded as one of the best in the game.
Well as you proved I would be right to be worried now wouldn't I? It's almost like I was right to call out ranged weapons as a worry... wonder why that would be.
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<stare>
He can pull the same stunt dual-wielding wakizashis instead of firing a bow. In fact, he can do both, making not only the Zen archers and rangers look like chumps, but TWF crit-fisher melee guys as well.
<stare>
He can pull the same stunt dual-wielding wakizashis instead of firing a bow. In fact, he can do both, making not only the Zen archers and rangers look like chumps, but TWF crit-fisher melee guys as well.
Please show me which of the following weapon groups have Wakizashis.
bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons
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<stare>
He can pull the same stunt dual-wielding wakizashis instead of firing a bow. In fact, he can do both, making not only the Zen archers and rangers look like chumps, but TWF crit-fisher melee guys as well.
Average barbarian comes, sunders bow.
You cry, he wins.Average archer fighter comes, fires bow.
You die, he wins.
While this was not why I stared the thread the information is valuable. I have only skimmed, but it seems Mike is correct. This is a lot better than I first thought.
I am tempted to put it to the DPR test to see how it works out.
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He can pull the same stunt dual-wielding wakizashis instead of firing a bow. In fact, he can do both, making not only the Zen archers and rangers look like chumps, but TWF crit-fisher melee guys as well.
Actually he has no reason to dual wield Wakashi's since it's still flurry of blows and therefore he can't two weapon fight with it.
He'll also only get strength bonus with two handed weapons instead of 1.5 strength bonus.
The only place he gets more of a bonus than normal is with archery using rapid shot and multishot.
<stare>
He can pull the same stunt dual-wielding wakizashis instead of firing a bow. In fact, he can do both, making not only the Zen archers and rangers look like chumps, but TWF crit-fisher melee guys as well.
Please show me which of the following weapon groups have Wakizashis.
bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons
He can get it with fighter weapon training since it says weapon training, and the weapon training of Sohei stacks with that of fighter.
He can get it with fighter weapon training since it says weapon training, and the weapon training of Sohei stacks with that of fighter.<stare>
He can pull the same stunt dual-wielding wakizashis instead of firing a bow. In fact, he can do both, making not only the Zen archers and rangers look like chumps, but TWF crit-fisher melee guys as well.
Please show me which of the following weapon groups have Wakizashis.
bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons
Ah missed the multi class bit. So the Sohei is great if its more than a Sohei. I'm sure the zen archer can claim the same.
Ah missed the multi class bit. So the Sohei is great if its more than a Sohei. I'm sure the zen archer can claim the same.He can get it with fighter weapon training since it says weapon training, and the weapon training of Sohei stacks with that of fighter.<stare>
He can pull the same stunt dual-wielding wakizashis instead of firing a bow. In fact, he can do both, making not only the Zen archers and rangers look like chumps, but TWF crit-fisher melee guys as well.
Please show me which of the following weapon groups have Wakizashis.
bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons
Not to the same extent -- as pointed out the Sohei can flurry with a longbow and also use rapid shot and many shot with it to do so.
At 20th level this would mean:
+16(x2)/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1
and if he spends a ki point:
+16(x2)/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1
He will need 14 levels in Sohei monk to make this happen which leaves 6 levels of fighter available.
Not sure on exacts the sohei has the advantage but the zen can also fire around corners or depending on his level deal up to 2d10 per arrow. 2d6 if he goes for 14zen/6weapon master fighter.
Though 15th would be better for the extra attack on flurry.