A village of NPCs, and Average Joe Farmer is a professional.

[BobJoeJim]

I adore this thread, and I have done a lot of similar analyses in the past. I have a huge number of thoughts to share when I'm not at work, and after I've had time to put them in order, but for now this is just a bump to remind myself to come back to this thread later.

[BobJoeJim]

Okay, lunch break, time to try to get some of my thoughts down.

First of all, this topic interests me on a lot of different levels, and if I don't reign myself in and talk about things one at a time, I will end up with a dozen pages worth of incomprehensible text before I'm done writing. So for now, I am going to start with a specific emphasis: macroeconomics. I want to track the resources and goods either generated or consumed by different types of communities, for the purpose of mapping out kingdoms and trade routes.

The OP (and further discussion) in this thread is a great breakdown of a typical farming village - but it tracks everything in terms of GP. Now this isn't a flaw, it's accurate per the rules, and it's also accurate from an accounting standpoint - you track things by their monetary value.

That said, I think it is useful to remember that a farmer who earns ~360 gp/year by making Profession (Farmer) checks weekly, and who has annual expenses of 120 gp/year, is NOT necessarily having 360 actual gold coins come into his possession over the course of the year, then spending 120 of them on himself, leaving 240 gold coins in his coffers to use to support his family. Most of the gp value is in the form of trade goods (mostly food), and coinage never plays a part in the conversation.

I would say that the cost of living expense in a medieval society is probably at least 50% food. A "common meal" in a tavern costs 3sp, which works out to 9gp/month - 90% of the cost of an "average" lifestyle. Now it's cheaper to cook at home, and a farming family will do so, but out of their 348gp/year living expenses I am comfortable assuming that at least 175gp of that represents the market value of the food they eat over the course of a year. Obviously, as a farming family, they wouldn't be buying that food at market, they would be growing it, selling their surplus at market to meet the REST of their expenses. We can discuss that 50% figure and adjust it if we want, when we're ready to make more detailed calculations, but for now let's go with 50% for simplicity's sake as I illustrate the concepts I'm considering.

And this brings us to those profession checks. The farmer who earns 360gp/year from his profession checks does not end up with 360gp, in my view, he ends up with 360gp WORTH OF FOOD. He can then eat that food, or sell (or barter) it in the village. In this case, his family eats 175gp of it, leaving them 185gp in surplus that they can sell.

This lets us calculate the net food surplus of the entire town. Obviously this farming village should produce more food than it consumes - it's villages like this taking their surplus to larger town to sell that provide the food eaten by all the urban city-dwellers who would otherwise starve to death.

You came up with a combined gross farming income of 10,565gp/year, so that's the village's food supply. For the town's overall income, you said "New figures: Gross 14,257gp Net 3,783gp", which shows total expenses of 10,474, which with our 50% figure means you need 5,237gp worth of food to feed the entire village. So each year, this village has 5,328gp worth of extra food, which they take to a nearby city or town to sell, using the money to purchase the manufactured goods that they need, but don't have the capacity to produce themselves in the village.

Shifting gears slightly, a major metropolis probably has a lot of people living a poor lifestyle, some average, and a lucky few who are super wealthy. For a super rough estimate, lets say that each urbanite has an average monthly cost of living of 5gp, which at 50% over 12 months means 30gp worth of food. So if you're mapping out your kingdom, and you want to plop down a capital city with 25,000 people and no internal food sources, then that city will need to import 750,000gp worth of food each year in order to survive. So after you draw in your little star to represent the capital, go dot in 141 little farming villages in the surrounding area to feed it, and you have the beginnings of a valid economy.

The next step is to map out this same information for other types of communities, like a mining town in the hills, or the like. Figure out the net imports and exports of each community type - food, resources like lumber or iron or gold, manufactured goods - and now you can draw in trade routes into your map. Now the next time your PCs want to hire on as caravan guards, you can figure out exactly what sort of goods that caravan is likely to be carrying.

This is only the tip of the iceberg of things I want to dive into, but I think it's more than enough for now. My lunch break is over anyway, so go ahead and let me know what you think about the above, and I'll be back later with some of my thoughts on methodology. Since so far all I've discussed is purpose ;)

[spalding]

So I was leafing through the Ultimate equipment guide today and realized a few things:

1 Lb of coffee beans costs 5cp.
1 sheep is 2 gp.
1 Lb of wool is 6 gp.
1 Lb of nuts is 3 cp
1 Lb of turnips or potatoes is 2 cp.
1 Lb of maple syrup is 1 gp as is a pound of honey.
1 Lb of chilies, cardamom, cumin, fennel, ginger, saffron, pepper, or vanilla is 2 gp a pound.

However saffron is also listed at 15 gp a pound, so pick your poison on which one is right.

Now I would like to point to one problem BobJoeJim -- we already know the average cost of living is 10 gp a month. That is given to us in the core rulebook (it's also the price I quoted on the first post) and as such you're going to need to look at doubling the prices you are assuming in your work above (not to say your work is bad, just that we have a fixed price already and therefore have a base we should stick too since we have already used that price for all our other calculations).

Also while we know that this covers food, we don't know the exact nature of what is eaten. This is slightly important because it will shape the surrounding farms and what is grown. Also we need to know what other than food is being produced at these farms since we need to know the commodity markets for wool (as I mentioned) and cotton (8 gp a Lb by the way) since that is going to have a direct impact on industry and farm land available.

Please note that I have a serious problem with any model that is going to assume that average is the average since that is exactly what it is.

As such I would suggest that the workings of a major metropolis should be based on the premise that the average person there is living an average life style -- not a poor one.

Finally I'll provide the population ranges for each settlement size so we can build based on the populations we are looking at for each such thing:

Thorp < 20
Hamlet 21~60
Village 61~200
Small town 201~2000
Large town 2001~5000
small city 5000~10000
large city 10001~25000
Metropolis 25000+

Also if someone would like to dig up the population totals for major cities in Golarion that would probably be helpful too so we can see what could be around them as well.

I would suggest that up through the small town could be small enough to be food positive (terrain dependent of course).

Next we need to consider the bounty of the sea however. While water will limit the amount of farm land available the sea also provides a huge amount of food (and employment) that definitely needs to be considered. I would offer that seafood is probably the most common source of protein for most people.

Small game also needs to be considered in the food equation as it's highly likely that it too will play a huge part in the economy (both in hide and in food).

[Son of the Veterinarian]

I'd go with the 15gp price for saffron, though even that seems a bit low.

[BPorter]

BobJoeJim wrote:

<Post full of AWESOMENESS!>

I love this thread. There's a TON of great info in it. But this post deserved a special shout-out.

Great stuff, folks.

[BobJoeJim]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Now I would like to point to one problem BobJoeJim -- we already know the average cost of living is 10 gp a month. That is given to us in the core rulebook (it's also the price I quoted on the first post) and as such you're going to need to look at doubling the prices you are assuming in your work above (not to say your work is bad, just that we have a fixed price already and therefore have a base we should stick too since we have already used that price for all our other calculations).

Also while we know that this covers food, we don't know the exact nature of what is eaten. This is slightly important because it will shape the surrounding farms and what is grown. Also we need to know what other than food is being produced at these farms since we need to know the commodity markets for wool (as I mentioned) and cotton (8 gp a Lb by the way) since that is going to have a direct impact on industry and farm land available.

Please note that I have a serious problem with any model that is going to assume that average is the average since that is exactly what it is.

As such I would suggest that the workings of a major metropolis should be based on the premise that the average person there is living an average life style -- not a poor one.

Finally I'll provide the population ranges for each settlement size so we can build based on the populations we are looking at for each such thing:

Thorp < 20
Hamlet 21~60
Village 61~200
Small town 201~2000
Large town 2001~5000
small city 5000~10000
large city 10001~25000...

There is a difference of semantics between referring to the mathematical average of everyone's cost of living in a city, and referring to the cost of living for an "average" lifestyle. It does depend a lot on your perspective. I prefer a grittier game style, more reminiscent of historical medieval living, while many people prefer a more utopian high fantasy style. This is a matter of preference, though, and there is definitely nothing in the rules as written that says "average" quality of life is THE arithmetic mean of the costs of living of all people in the world.

If our large cities even remotely resemble the large cities of medieval Europe, like London or Paris, then "untrained laborers or commoners" would be much more common than "skilled experts or warriors" within the populace. The former have a Poor cost of living, and the latter Average. If you have three of the former for each one of the latter, plus a few wealthy aristocrats, you hit my 5gp/month/person as the arithmetic mean quite easily. And as a sidenote, your 200 person village had a combined annual cost of living of 10,474gp, which is 52.37/person/year, or only 4.36gp/person/month (since you assumed a Poor lifestyle for all the children). That's even lower than the five I gave to the metropolis, so I'm actually saying that on balance life in the city is better than village life, which may be generous. I would contend that I don't need to double anything.

As for the commodities, you're spot on. When I said that I had only touched on the tip of the iceberg, stuff like the different types of food represented by that block gp value, and the impact this has on types of industry was exactly the next point I planned to make, so way to beat me to the punch on that one.

Since you mentioned wool, I feel it's worth pointing out that Profession (shepherd) is listed as separate from Profession (farmer). One is about raising herd animals (and the "gp" generated would be in the form of wool, milk, and meat), while the other is about growing plants. The other complication comes about when you look at the craft skill, because once the shepherd has sheared his flock and sold the wool, now you have to make something out of it. Raw materials costs are 1/3 of the value of the finished product, but how many links are in that chain? I would probably say that 1 gp worth of wool becomes 3 gp worth of cloth, which then becomes 9 gp worth of clothing, through two separate skill checks (since Craft (cloth) and Craft (clothing) are listed separately in the skill description), but if you have a woodcutter his 1 gp worth of lumber only gets multiplied once via Craft (carpentry) to end up as 3 gp worth of finished goods. Is this the best way to model it? Or is the second step in the clothing crafting process redundant from an economic modeling perspective?

Also, some professions (like miller, baker, etcetera) are very tempting to treat as crafts instead, since they require raw materials and produce finished goods, but by RAW they are clearly listed as professions.

My instinct with small game is that it would mostly be for personal use, but a family member with survival could do a lot to defray that cost of living. If you can catch enough small game to cover 20% of that farming family's food needs, then instead of eating 175gp worth of their crops, they can instead eat only 140gp worth of what they grew, and get an extra 35gp from their sales at market. Some basic crafting can serve a similar purpose - even untrained, over 50% of people can hit DC 10 by taking 10, and craft can be used untrained. That's enough to make most of the "typical items" that most people need. The farmer's wife probably makes the family's clothing, which doesn't technically generate revenue, but does reduce the need for expenditures, and so probably could be counted as a "payment" toward the cost of living, meaning less outflow of what precious coin they have.

Fishing is of course huge near any major body of water. Mechanically it's super simple, just profession checks, not really different than the farming. As a sidenote, though, I do also have an interest in the more fully simulationist analysis as well. While there is a lot of material that I've been able to find on medieval crop yields, and how much land a single medieval farmer could till, and such, to get a detailed analysis of what a farmer's income *should* be (a topic for another post) as a double-check on the results generated by the profession checks (cliff's notes, it's actually quite valid and realistic for farmers - not so much for some other professions), I have NOT been able to find any similar data on medieval fishing yields. If anyone can point me toward a good source for that, I would be grateful.

Certainly any size of community could potentially be food positive, or at least food neutral, but generally the larger a community grows, the lower the percentage of people devoted to producing food becomes. This is purely a generality and not at all an absolute. And not every hamlet or village will be food positive, either. A mining village could be 100 people devoted almost entirely to extracting as much from the ground as they can, and importing all of the food they need.

Notice how every paragraph I type starts at one point, then goes off on a tangent, and ends elsewhere? There's SO MUCH to talk about here. Overload! This is fun :)

[Diego Rossi]

@BobJoeJim
Having access to a good number of copies of Medieval and Renaissance maps of cities I can assure you that they had plenty of cultivated lands withing the walls.
They were mostly kitchen gardens, but that would mean lettuce, beans, peas, artichokes and often some hen.
Pleasure gardens often had fruit trees. A single persimmon will produce a surprising number of fruits.
So a city without food production within the walls was a rarity. The habitants were unable to feed themselves only with was produced within the city walls, but they were capable to integrate what was brought from the market with the garden products.

[Diego Rossi]

BobJoeJim wrote:

If our large cities even remotely resemble the large cities of medieval Europe, like London or Paris,

Paris, yes, but London wasn't a large medieval city at all.

[BobJoeJim]

Diego Rossi wrote:

BobJoeJim wrote:

If our large cities even remotely resemble the large cities of medieval Europe, like London or Paris,

Paris, yes, but London wasn't a large medieval city at all.

Between 1100 and 1300 AD, the population of London grew from 15,000 to 80,000. Considering you are a metropolis at 25,000 per the rule set we're basing this analysis on, I would say that qualifies as a large medieval city. I mean no, nothing like the huge cities elsewhere in the world, Constantinople it was not, but it was large.

Edit: You do make a good point about food production inside the walls. No, a city wouldn't have to import 100% of its food supply. It will almost certainly be food negative, though, so just assume that my math on the 25,000 person metropolis before was actually talking about a larger city, which produced enough food within its walls to feed all *but* 25,000 of its residents. Good correction :)

[R_Chance]

One thing - do any of you have a copy of the old Chivalry and Sorcery RPG (1st edition, 1977, Fantasy Games Unlimited) and the C&S Sourcebook? Everything you might want to know about medieval economics was there in exquisite detail. It's a great source for things like farm yields, etc. The costs are more in line with rl as well. There have been several editions since my old original, but I don't know if they continued their fixation on "real" economics and a fairly complex simulation of medieval society.

While PF / D&D might not have "realistic" economics having a metric of real life (or close to it) to compare it with might be nice.

In more current terms "A Magical Medieval Society" from Expeditious Retreat Press (2003). The second edition is still available in PDF format on the Paizo store, is a pretty good resource. I gather the new version (2008) has expanded bits on feudal warfare and the integration of magic into it, etc.

I had both of those at hand when I trashed and rebuilt economics etc. for my homebrew game world. Great stuff. And I think you would enjoy the read (if you haven't already).

[BobJoeJim]

I have a copy of Magical Medieval Society, but not the Chivalry and Sorcery one. I will need to look for it.

Is the focus more micro or macro economics? I'm more interested in the latter, I don't care as much about a more historically accurate price list, I'm fine using the list we have that (in theory) is designed to balance gameplay, and extrapolating from that where we must.

[R_Chance]

BobJoeJim wrote:

I have a copy of Magical Medieval Society, but not the Chivalry and Sorcery one. I will need to look for it.

Is the focus more micro or macro economics? I'm more interested in the latter, I don't care as much about a more historically accurate price list, I'm fine using the list we have that (in theory) is designed to balance gameplay, and extrapolating from that where we must.

Both really. It's about realistic prices and (more importantly to me) the yields of feudal manors etc. It had a system for creating feudal manors and determining their output (and of course what the lord could squeeze out of his domain). Quite detailed.

[spalding]

Something to remember BobJoeJim is that I'm really not here to force the system to conform to accounts we have of the past, instead to see what the system itself presents and if it is a sustainable and plausible system.

[BobJoeJim]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Something to remember BobJoeJim is that I'm really not here to force the system to conform to accounts we have of the past, instead to see what the system itself presents and if it is a sustainable and plausible system.

Quite right, and my goal is the same. However I'm easily distracted. I think it's INTERESTING to compare the results we get to historical accounts, and it plays a factor in deciding if those results are plausible, but it's no more than that, and it ISN'T my goal. My goal is to work within the system, and you nailed it with the key word "sustainable". I want to see if the system that exists can be framed in such a way that there is a genuine and vibrant sustainable economy as our backdrop - which I don't feel is the norm.

So please, when you catch me going off on my tangents, as I will from time to time, don't hesitate to point it out and reign me back in, I will appreciate it!

[Diego Rossi]

In Pathfinder, with its unlimited cantrips, we have Purify Food and Drink that alone would change the face of medieval food economy.
I am sure that wizards and other spellcaster would have developed their version of that spell as, together with create water, it is probably the most influential spell for the common people.

As written it will not simply remove taints from food (as in older editions) but it would return it edible status, restoring even the rotten parts.
Magical cabinets casting that cantrip once every 24 hours on the content would be the equivalent of a modern freezer and have a relatively moderate cost (approximately 200 gp for cubic foot). Even pricing it as a constant item it would be affordable by wealthy people (1.000 gp for cubic foot).

[chaiboy]

This got me thinking about how big each of the hexes is in kingmaker. It gives us a point of reference area wise.

There are 640 acres per square mile.

A hex 12 miles across has about 8 miles length for each side(2/3rd length of 12 miles) which gives us 166 square miles per hex.

So every hex has 106,240 acres to play with.

I would assume 10% would be unusable(rocks, streams roads, corps) for simplicities sake which gives us 150 square miles(or 150 slots if you want to keep the math from getting to crazy) that we could use to use for an area. The acres would be a little over what was discussed earlier but we can assume it includes fences, walls, farm house, barn, stables, ranch etc.

a farm would need 1 sm (640 acres) per crop? or is it assumed mixed use?
a cattle herder would need 2 sm (1280 acres)
a sheep herder would need 2 sm (1280 acres)

does that sound about right?

[Vod Canockers]

chaiboy wrote:

This got me thinking about how big each of the hexes is in kingmaker. It gives us a point of reference area wise.

There are 640 acres per square mile.

A hex 12 miles across has about 8 miles length for each side(2/3rd length of 12 miles) which gives us 166 square miles per hex.

So every hex has 106,240 acres to play with.

I would assume 10% would be unusable(rocks, streams roads, corps) for simplicities sake which gives us 150 square miles(or 150 slots if you want to keep the math from getting to crazy) that we could use to use for an area. The acres would be a little over what was discussed earlier but we can assume it includes fences, walls, farm house, barn, stables, ranch etc.

a farm would need 1 sm (640 acres) per crop? or is it assumed mixed use?
a cattle herder would need 2 sm (1280 acres)
a sheep herder would need 2 sm (1280 acres)

does that sound about right?

Looking at farm size from an historical point. In the US, the average farm size has pretty much always been around 400 acres. I use this, because in the Kingmaker AP it is a similar situation of moving to "empty" land. Pre-modern fertilizers, and powered farming equipment, only 1/3 to 1/2 of the land would be farmed with a grain; wheat, corn, rye, barley, oats, etc. the rest of the land was left fallow or was planted with something that would replenish the soil. The farmers knew what worked, but not the why it worked. Most farms would have some livestock; chickens, goats, pigs, sheep or cows if they were wealthy. They would also have an extensive garden, fruit trees, berry patches, etc.

Land used for grazing is incredibly varied, depending upon the natural plant growth. Cattle needs anywhere from 1-2 acres per cow to 15-20 or more depending upon conditions.

Kingmaker has some serious problems, in that you can only do one thing per hex. That hex that you put a town in, is going to be surrounded by farms. Amd all those "farming" hexes are going to have towns of some sort in them, because the farmers cannot cart their surplus food 100 miles to market.

[notabot]

Diego Rossi wrote:

In Pathfinder, with its unlimited cantrips, we have Purify Food and Drink that alone would change the face of medieval food economy.

I am sure that wizards and other spellcaster would have developed their version of that spell as, together with create water, it is probably the most influential spell for the common people.

As written it will not simply remove taints from food (as in older editions) but it would return it edible status, restoring even the rotten parts.
Magical cabinets casting that cantrip once every 24 hours on the content would be the equivalent of a modern freezer and have a relatively moderate cost (approximately 200 gp for cubic foot). Even pricing it as a constant item it would be affordable by wealthy people (1.000 gp for cubic foot).

Spell-casting services of even the 0 level variety is going to be out of the reach of farmers except in dire emergencies (such a cure or remove disease to be able to keep working). Most wizards or clerics aren't going to be bothered to be a cantrip slave for Robert the turnip farmer.

As for wealthy people, sure some might see the novelty in such, but honestly, its probably cheaper and more sensible to just have their servants acquire more fresh food. A cubic foot of food is not that much, you need multiple cubic yards of food storage for practical long term storage. After all, how many pounds of food will just 2 people eat in a week? A rich person will not only have their family (probably at least 4 people) but several if not dozens of servants (servants are cheap in this system, but the cheaper they are the more you need).

As for the food and water cantrips, I've always seen them as more of a travel spell. Something to keep the group the wizard/cleric is traveling in supplied with fresh food and water. A wealthy caravan or a well off ship might spring for a wizard or cleric to travel with, but lets be honest, retaining a long term service of such is going to cut into profits, and just carrying enough travel food and using a route with good water is going to be cheaper and cheaper means better profit margins.

Edit: The 400 acre US farm is a modern thing, more like 1970s, the homestead act was 160 acres (and that was unproven land, some of it going to wasteland, but still part of the plot, and it took awhile for a farmer to get all of that ready for planted crops). In a muscle driven economy farms were tiny, probably less than 10 acres per family

[mdt]

notabot wrote:

Spell-casting services of even the 0 level variety is going to be out of the reach of farmers except in dire emergencies (such a cure or remove disease to be able to keep working). Most wizards or clerics aren't going to be bothered to be a cantrip slave for Robert the turnip farmer.

I think there is a bad assumption here. Why would the farmer not be an adept, and have his own orisons at beck and call? For that matter, a 13yo kid with one level of adept can cast create water all day (and probably does it often right over his or her siblings heads when the parents are not around), as well as purify food and water.

Remember, farmers don't hire out for what they need, they breed up what they need. And a farmer can be any NPC class and still be a good farmer. The average farm wife is likely a 2nd or 3rd level adept, while the farmer is an expert or warrior or mix (depending on how hostile the environment around the farm). Or, reverse it if the wife is the farmer and the husband is the child raiser.

[notabot]

mdt wrote:

I think there is a bad assumption here. Why would the farmer not be an adept, and have his own orisons at beck and call? For that matter, a 13yo kid with one level of adept can cast create water all day (and probably does it often right over his or her siblings heads when the parents are not around), as well as purify food and water.

Remember, farmers don't hire out for what they need, they breed up what they need. And a farmer can be any NPC class and still be a good farmer. The average farm wife is likely a 2nd or 3rd level adept, while the farmer is an expert or warrior or mix (depending on how hostile the environment around the farm). Or, reverse it if the wife is the farmer and the husband is the child raiser.

Its a fine assumption, there aren't that many adepts in a farming village. The training or natural talent is not something that is just going to happen for the average person. You are also using the assumption that Joe dirt farmer's wife is a 3rd level caster. Sorry, don't see that happening. To put that in perspective, thats like saying a highly trained (3rd level irl is like college educated) nurse (adepts basic healing ability) is the average farm wife in a vaguely medieval society.

[Diego Rossi]

notabot wrote:

Spell-casting services of even the 0 level variety is going to be out of the reach of farmers except in dire emergencies (such a cure or remove disease to be able to keep working). Most wizards or clerics aren't going to be bothered to be a cantrip slave for Robert the turnip farmer.

1) If you look the whole post you will see that I am speaking of magic items mostly.

2) Non adventuring have to gain their money somewhere, you know? And there is little request for a guy firing fireballs outside the army or navy. What will pay is casting cantrips.

3) Another factor you seem to have missed is that the spell apparently recover the portion of food that has perished. That is an incredible advantage when we are speaking of meat or other food that won't last at room temperature.

4) Even without that a simple 1 cubic foot crate with a use activate effect would purify his content from mold, rat excrements, insects and so on every time it is filled.
Let's assume filling and emptying it will require 3 rounds for the whole operation. That is 200 cubic feet in 1 hour, 4.800 in one day. Translated in weight we are speaking of 49 pounds for each operation (from this handy calculator), 9.800 pound in a hour, 235.200 pounds in a day. Translated in metric tons it is 107 metric tons in a day. And you would have to treat the wheat only once shortly before selling it.
Today 10% of the world production of wheat is lost from bad preservation, in medieval times it was way worse, this little gadget would prevent that.
From up-tread, 1 pound of wheat is wort 1 cp. If you treat 100.000 pounds of wheat this way in 1 day and recover even 1% of your product you would recover 1.000 pounds of wheat and make 10 gp. In 100 days you have recovered the cost of your 1.000 gp item. After that you would start to gain.

Risk of theft? Low. This item can be a structural part of a storage silo, so hard and time consuming to steal.
Easy to use? Make it part of the delivery chute of a storage silo and there will be no need to operate it in any special way.

A difference of 1% in wheat conservation can change a lot of things for a nation. And that is assuming a very low efficiency for the system.

[Diego Rossi]

notabot wrote:

mdt wrote:

I think there is a bad assumption here. Why would the farmer not be an adept, and have his own orisons at beck and call? For that matter, a 13yo kid with one level of adept can cast create water all day (and probably does it often right over his or her siblings heads when the parents are not around), as well as purify food and water.

Remember, farmers don't hire out for what they need, they breed up what they need. And a farmer can be any NPC class and still be a good farmer. The average farm wife is likely a 2nd or 3rd level adept, while the farmer is an expert or warrior or mix (depending on how hostile the environment around the farm). Or, reverse it if the wife is the farmer and the husband is the child raiser.

Its a fine assumption, there aren't that many adepts in a farming village. The training or natural talent is not something that is just going to happen for the average person. You are also using the assumption that Joe dirt farmer's wife is a 3rd level caster. Sorry, don't see that happening. To put that in perspective, thats like saying a highly trained (3rd level irl is like college educated) nurse (adepts basic healing ability) is the average farm wife in a vaguely medieval society.

James Jacobs wrote:

smashthedean wrote:

What rough percentage of a large city, say Korvosa's, population is made up by PC classes (fighter, wizard, etc) compared to the rough percentage of NPC classes (commoner, expert, etc)?

I'd guess maybe 25% to 35% of Korvosa has non-NPC class levels, with most of them being 1st level fighters and rogues and wizards and clerics.

Let's assume that fighter and rogues are 4:1 against wizard and clerics. we are still speaking of 5% of a city population, 1 person every 20. Middle ages families were large, a 20 person extended family all living in one farm wasn't unusual.

To have 3 cantrips you only need to be first level.

[notabot]

On the magic item: I'm kind of curious on where you are getting cost from, and how it works. And who is making them.

Also, how many farmers can afford the upfront investment, which translates to months of work, and also afford the 100 days of labor to get to the break even part?

Lets look at it in a modern perspective. North America, Europe, India, and most of Latin America has what we would call a post green revolution farming style. Heavy investment in machines and chemicals gives us massive returns in yields. This requires farmers to have farms large enough to support the costs, and a financial infrastructure robust enough to pay the upfront cost for it all (in the forms of loans, but also to facilitate large transactions). Africa and parts of Asia do not practice this form of farming despite the huge gains in yields it would provide and periodic famines they suffer under. Why? Social and economic reasons. Lack of capital, lack of security (large farms need strong legal and physical protections), low social development, lack of infrastructure, lack of access to markets ect.

Now you could have farms in a dutch analog area (rich farm lands, proximity to markets) where there IS the required infrastructure and capital to make it work. Even then the average farmer isn't going to personally own such gizmos, when the guy down the lane can just specialize in storing and processing grain. This isn't any different than a farmer sending his grain off to be milled (how many farmers had their own grain mill?).

Personally I find that a highly prosperous farming area to be the exception, most are going to be subsistence level for free farmers (maybe enough free money to get some nice things after a long period prosperity, but even then... bandits and conflict can wipe that out in a day) The richest farmland is going to be locked up by big landholders (possibly in some sort of estate system that is parallel to general feudalism, which provide the security for prosperous farming).

[Diego Rossi]

With the idea that the richest land his locked in big landholders hands you are assuming a higher population that what is in Golarion.

The gizmo would work for a large farm or grain merchant.

The cost is easy:
Magic item creation
Use-activated or continuous: Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp (A 0-level spell is half the value of a 1st-level spell for determining price.)
The item is bulky and not portable so no extra cost for the no space option.
No similar item to price it, so we use the above guidelines.

You could say that it should be multiplied by 4 or more as the original spell has no duration, but even with a x5 or x10 increase in cost it would be a good investment for a grain seller, losses to pests and mold had a heavy toll on food storage.

You had the capital to have one made but you don't own a farm big enough to repay it in a reasonable time frame? Make one for communal use. It would be the equivalent of a mill, people pay you a fee to pass their product through your "purifying loop", you get rick and hated like most millers in medieval times.

Checking "storage silo cost" I find a site that give me a cost of 32,000 something (dollars, I suppose, as it use a comma and not a point as divisor) for a vertical silo, like those you see in almost any farm today. My playing group usually use a comparison of 1 gp = 50 € as buying power, so that would be around 500 gp.

Sending the grain to the miller isn't a loss for the farm owner. It is the way in which he make money. If the grain merchant get more product from the same initial volume of grain he will get more money and a small percentage of that will trickle down to the farmer.

[Weirdo]

I can see that as part of a large food shipping operation, or as a for-fee-resource in a larger town owned by a particularly rich farmer or local noble. Probably not something that each individual farmer will own, though.

As for the adept/cleric farmwife, 25% PC levels is very generous. The method I'm using (based on the 3.5 generation rules) only gives at most 6% PC levels, under 0.5% clerics. And the 3.5 DMG indicated that the adept population was about 0.5-1%. So we're talking maybe 2% of the population being able to cast Purify Food and Drink. Obviously James Jacobs knows what he's talking about when it's Golarion, but I think that's a bit of a departure from the assumptions many of us are using, given that as far as I know PF hasn't produced an alternate system to replace the 3.5 demographics rule of thumb.

Even at 5-10% of the population, we're only talking about one or two members of an extended family being a level 1 caster, not most farm wives being a 2-3rd level adept.

Also pretty sure adepts don't get unlimited 0-level spells. That's an ability granted specifically by the cantrips/orisons class feature, which adepts don't get.

[notabot]

I have the idea that the best land is tied up in rich land holders because of the assumed social structure of the major inner sea powers. Cheliax uses large slave populations, which implies a plantation style farming style. Taldor's major exports involve olives and wine, which also has a large landowner style of farming (that and the byzantine social structure it is based off of). Qadira has limited farmland and a social structure that implies that anybody not noble born or city born is a foreigner or slave. Osirion has a large slave populations that work the fields that support the urban areas.

Any farm that is going to escape these kind of conditions is going be either undesirable due to size, productivity, or access to markets. A farmer that doesn't have access to larger markets is going to make enough food to support his family, and enough to trade with the local craftsmen and to pay his taxes.

Which makes the average family farm unlikely to be able afford the cost of the magic grain box.

[spalding]

Lets remember the populations we are talking about though -- a 'large' slave population traditionally still isn't very high, and the land to population ratio for Golarion is significantly lower than Europe had during much of its history.

I'm thinking we are going to see more renaissance era social structures than we are earlier times.

[Diego Rossi]

"olives and wine, which also has a large landowner style of farming"

Maybe in the US. In Italy practically every farmer has a vineyard with 10 or 20 rows of grapevines and working them don't require great numbers of workers.

Olives have a mixed style of cultivation, it is more dependent on the area climate but several of the farmers I know have a small number of olive trees and don't need any particularly big organization to cultivate them.
They only need access to a oil mill.

You should remember that a large percentage of the US has a low level of precipitations when compared to Europe. Apparently the Inner Sea region is more similar to Europe than the US in that regard.

For Celiax an the plantation style cultivations you probably are right even if the nation seem varied enough to allow for some difference depending on the area, and that can apply to Taldor, too. Quadira is an arid land so there is little chance of large plantations, Osirion had a recent change in government, so I don't know if there has been the time to concentrate the land in the hands of a few landholders.
Even if you were right with your assumptions, you are speaking of a limited percentage of the whole Inner sea region, maybe 1/8 of the land and of territories where the kind of village that Abraham is analyzing don't exist at all or is a rarity.

Let's look the other lands:
Thuvia e Rahadoum are semi-arid lands and probably have a different organization that those analyzed by Abraham;
Nex and Geb have theirs problems too.
Andoran, Druma, Galt, the River Kingdom, Varisia, Ustalav, Lastwall and Brevoy seem good candidates for this kind of village. That is about 1/5 of the map.

Looking at the map it seem that this kind of village would appear in locations with a climate and political situation similar to that of France, Germany or Northern Italy, not surprising locations where this kind of village existed during the middle ages and the renaissance on our world.

A typical Chelaxian or Taldoran large estate with annexed village will be different, probably the upper class would be richer and the lower class poorer, with little in between, but Abraham calculation about the total wealth produced by the the area wouldn't be far off. Simply the distribution of that wealth would be different.
And it would be a land where a gitzmo like mine would be even more interesting, as the rich landowner would want it, either as a novelty or for its benefits on production.

[notabot]

Eh, maybe I'm looking too much into what cultures the main powers of the inner sea are copies of. The North African Muslim powers practiced slavery on a massive scale, much of the agricultural work was done by slaves (and in some parts, still to this day despite being "illegal") and indentured servants treated little better than slaves. The Byzantines were a major destination of slaves, the Slavic people were so often slaves the race became the base word for slave... Slaves were so common that the Roman Pope had to ban several slavery practices (selling Christians to non Christian areas).

Christian Europe didn't have slave based economy, but the Arab/North African areas were often reliant on slaves for their bottom level economic activity (and considering how their current treatment of foreign labor can be seen... some things don't change much), and even their armies (Egypt ended up being ruled by a class of slave warriors for awhile, and the slave warriors in the Ottoman Empire played a good game of Praetorian Guard style intrigue/revolts).

Since the southern coast of the inner sea is essentially North Africa, and Taldor is the Byzantine Empire in all but name, and Qadira is obviously a Turkish style country, and Osirion is an Egypt copy, I hope people can understand where I'm coming from. Now the powers to the north of Cheliax and Taldor, and between the two of them would have much lower slave populations due different social structures (particularly Andorans). These countries would have an estate system more in line with France, HRE, and England. That is to say an interlocking system of feudal demesnes, yeoman farms, and important trade cities.

Also, slave populations in Ancient Greek world were really high, 1 slave per citizen, and some areas 3 slaves per citizen. Roman Empire had 1/3 or so slave population. In the southern United states some areas were mostly slave population (mainly in the areas with the best farmland in South Carolina, Georgia, and the low country of Mississippi and Alabama. The population of Brazil might as well been 2/3rd slaves, and that area had a low land to population ratio as well (admittedly a colonial situation rather than a home grown society). I'm just not seeing were the slave populations not being traditionally large excluding the areas where the western roman empire were (even then excluding the Muslim controlled parts).

[mdt]

I'm honestly flabbergasted by some of the posts.

I stated adept farmwife. And people are telling me 'there aren't that many classes' in a village.

NPC's are, as everyone is agreeing, about 75% NPC classes. And Adept is an NPC class, not a PC class!. I see nothing in the rulebook saying that only one spell caster per city.

Let's assume only 20% of the world are caters. That means that in an average Village (120 people) that 25 people are casters. The highest level they're have is 3rd level spells. That's a lot of casting, and when talking about cantrips, I see no reason why the local casters would not be willing to cast purify food and water for their neighbors a couple of times a week to help everyone keep fed. I also don't see any reason why farmers wouldn't be adepts, again, we're talking about an NPC class here, not Druids or Clerics. Sheesh.

[Vod Canockers]

mdt wrote:

I'm honestly flabbergasted by some of the posts.

I stated adept farmwife. And people are telling me 'there aren't that many classes' in a village.

NPC's are, as everyone is agreeing, about 75% NPC classes. And Adept is an NPC class, not a PC class!. I see nothing in the rulebook saying that only one spell caster per city.

Let's assume only 20% of the world are caters. That means that in an average Village (120 people) that 25 people are casters. The highest level they're have is 3rd level spells. That's a lot of casting, and when talking about cantrips, I see no reason why the local casters would not be willing to cast purify food and water for their neighbors a couple of times a week to help everyone keep fed. I also don't see any reason why farmers wouldn't be adepts, again, we're talking about an NPC class here, not Druids or Clerics. Sheesh.

You do realize that for thousands of years the human race survived without a refrigerator or icebox.

[mdt]

Vod Canockers wrote:

You do realize that for thousands of years the human race survived without a refrigerator or icebox.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? The real world is not the realm codified within the RAW. The real world also survived for thousands of years without antibiotics, computers, genetics, and thousands of other things.

There was also massive infant mortality, the black plague, starvation on a massive level, and tons of other really nasty things.

However, none of those are required in the PF realm construct, due to magic. And given the prevalence of magic, there's no reason there would ever be starvation from food going bad, like there was before the vaunted fridge.

[notabot]

mdt wrote:

I'm honestly flabbergasted by some of the posts.

I stated adept farmwife. And people are telling me 'there aren't that many classes' in a village.

NPC's are, as everyone is agreeing, about 75% NPC classes. And Adept is an NPC class, not a PC class!. I see nothing in the rulebook saying that only one spell caster per city.

Let's assume only 20% of the world are caters. That means that in an average Village (120 people) that 25 people are casters. The highest level they're have is 3rd level spells. That's a lot of casting, and when talking about cantrips, I see no reason why the local casters would not be willing to cast purify food and water for their neighbors a couple of times a week to help everyone keep fed. I also don't see any reason why farmers wouldn't be adepts, again, we're talking about an NPC class here, not Druids or Clerics. Sheesh.

Of the 5 NPC classes, 1 can cast spells. The majority of the NPCs are going to be commoners, experts, warriors, and aristocrats. Now there isn't anything official I can remember in PF rules, but in 3.x by far the majority of a settlement would be non casting NPC classes. Now personally I've always associated the Adept class being that crazy old man with dabbles in magic, the local mystic, or medicine woman. 1 per village, maybe an apprentice.

[mdt]

I do not see anything saying only 1 in 100 NPCs are adepts.

[R_Chance]

notabot wrote:

mdt wrote:

I'm honestly flabbergasted by some of the posts.

I stated adept farmwife. And people are telling me 'there aren't that many classes' in a village.

NPC's are, as everyone is agreeing, about 75% NPC classes. And Adept is an NPC class, not a PC class!. I see nothing in the rulebook saying that only one spell caster per city.

Let's assume only 20% of the world are caters. That means that in an average Village (120 people) that 25 people are casters. The highest level they're have is 3rd level spells. That's a lot of casting, and when talking about cantrips, I see no reason why the local casters would not be willing to cast purify food and water for their neighbors a couple of times a week to help everyone keep fed. I also don't see any reason why farmers wouldn't be adepts, again, we're talking about an NPC class here, not Druids or Clerics. Sheesh.

Of the 5 NPC classes, 1 can cast spells. The majority of the NPCs are going to be commoners, experts, warriors, and aristocrats. Now there isn't anything official I can remember in PF rules, but in 3.x by far the majority of a settlement would be non casting NPC classes. Now personally I've always associated the Adept class being that crazy old man with dabbles in magic, the local mystic, or medicine woman. 1 per village, maybe an apprentice.

Given they cast divine spells and meditate / pray for them I always figured "village priest" was a good role for Adepts. Having the heavily armed and armored Cleric in that role always seemed overkill to me.

[R_Chance]

mdt wrote:

I do not see anything saying only 1 in 100 NPCs are adepts.

Quote from the PFRPG Core Rulebook (page 163) under Spellcasting and Services:

"In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster
of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must
travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably
assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level
spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for
3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level
spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a
metropolis isn’t guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able
to cast 9th-level spells."

This may simply be a reference to spellcasting for hire, finding someone who knows specific spells or it may be making assumptions about the presence of spellcasters in the general population. Ymmv.

Edit: settlement sizes (from above):
Thorp < 20
Hamlet 21~60
Village 61~200
Small town 201~2000
Large town 2001~5000
small city 5000~10000
large city 10001~25000...

[spalding]

Which is to say in a smaller settlement it's hit or miss, and from small town and higher you can expect a spell caster capable of casting level 1 spells.

Please note that at the end it states that even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local caster able to cast 9th level spells... which by itself suggests that you are pretty much guaranteed to find the other spell levels in the the town size associated with them.

[R_Chance]

R_Chance wrote:

mdt wrote:

I do not see anything saying only 1 in 100 NPCs are adepts.

Quote from the PFRPG Core Rulebook (page 163) under Spellcasting and Services:

"In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster
of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must
travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably
assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level
spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for
3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level
spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a
metropolis isn’t guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able
to cast 9th-level spells."

This may simply be a reference to spellcasting for hire, finding someone who knows specific spells or it may be making assumptions about the presence of spellcasters in the general population. Ymmv.

Edit: settlement sizes (from above):
Thorp < 20
Hamlet 21~60
Village 61~200
Small town 201~2000
Large town 2001~5000
small city 5000~10000
large city 10001~25000...

And updated from the Game Mastery Guide (page 205):

Thorp 1st
Hamlet 2nd
Village 3rd
Small town 4th
Large town 5th
Small city 6th
Large city 7th
Metropolis 8th

Additionally there are a number of factors that can raise or lower the spell casting level...

[Diego Rossi]

R_Chance, by your post (and the data on the Game Mastery Guide) thorps without special modifiers will have a spellcasters capable to cast any 1st level spell. That give at least 1 spellcaster every 20 NPC or even more as you would need at least 1 arcana and 1 divine spellcaster to cover the most common spells.

I have tried to find some exact data about the number of priestly types (monks, mendicant orders, parish priest, personal priest of nobles, eremites and so on) during the late middle ages in the books I have at hand and Internet, but I was unable to find any clear reference.
Going from the memory of several conferences on the medieval times in Italy they being the 5% of the population (or even more) don't seem a strange number. That number can be wildly different in other countries.

The monasteries generally had some kind of economical activity and a large percentage of the monks and nuns where working there, tending vineyards and crops or producing fabrics or even printing books and engravings. So even the priestly types were producers and not only consumers in the economical cycle in the middle ages and Renaissance.

[Vod Canockers]

Diego Rossi wrote:

R_Chance, by your post (and the data on the Game Mastery Guide) thorps without special modifiers will have a spellcasters capable to cast any 1st level spell. That give at least 1 spellcaster every 20 NPC or even more as you would need at least 1 arcana and 1 divine spellcaster to cover the most common spells.

I have tried to find some exact data about the number of priestly types (monks, mendicant orders, parish priest, personal priest of nobles, eremites and so on) during the late middle ages in the books I have at hand and Internet, but I was unable to find any clear reference.
Going from the memory of several conferences on the medieval times in Italy they being the 5% of the population (or even more) don't seem a strange number. That number can be wildly different in other countries.

The monasteries generally had some kind of economical activity and a large percentage of the monks and nuns where working there, tending vineyards and crops or producing fabrics or even printing books and engravings. So even the priestly types were producers and not only consumers in the economical cycle in the middle ages and Renaissance.

There is the Paris Tax Rolls of 1292, it was used to create this: http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm

If you can read French (which I can't) here is a Google book with a copy of the original tax rolls: http://books.google.com/books/about/Paris_sous_Philippe_le_bel.html?id=YTwD AAAAYAAJ

[mdt]

@R_Chance

Yes, I used those numbers when I posted, if you look, I said 3rd level spells in a village, with 120 people (60-200, approx 120 being averagish). Which means there should be quite a few casters in town, and as was pointed out, that's just what you can find for hire. If I can find every possible spell up the 3rd level for hire in a village, then there must be quite a few casters given that most of them are NPC adepts, per rules, and logically not everyone who can cast is willing to hire out their abilities. To me, that says that even the farmer families if they have 6-10 people (including kids) probably have at least an adept on the farm.

It has always annoyed me that there are no arcane npc classes to represent hedge wizards/witches.

[vuron]

Personally I think there should be a NPC class version of each of the big 4 meaning a hedge mage NPC class and a thug NPC class. I dislike having to use expert to represent NPC class rogues.

Technically there really is nothing keeping any NPC with higher than average wisdom from selecting adept class levels. Being able to heal injuries with a cure light, or cast endure element or detect evil/protection from evil would be a compelling ability for many villagers to develop.

The number of 4th level adepts (necessary to cast 2nd level spells) and 7th level adepts (necessary to cast 3rd level spells)are going to be quite low.

But I could definitely see a number of goodwives in the average village being something like commoner 2/adept 1 to represent induction into whatever clerical mystery cult dominates in the village.

[Chemlak]

A handy link for people (check your opinion on the veracity of the data presented yourself), also, measurements are in km (multiply miles by 1.6093).

Medieval Demographics

[notabot]

I just personally find it hard to believe that housewife of average ability would have 3 levels and 10-14 hit points. Give her a frying pan and her angry house cat and she could TPK a level 1 group that lacks a fighter class.

[vuron]

It just really depends on where you draw the line in terms of NPC competence. The NPC Codex and GM guide have templates for city guards of Warrior 3 so I'm quite comfortable in having experienced famers/goodwives at Commoner 3 (or Commoner 2/Expert 1 or Commoner 2/Adept 1).

CR 1
HP 11 (3d6)
BaB +1 with a Knife or a Club
No Armor (or maybe Padded Armor)

Yeah that's really going to TPK a group.

Even an Adept 3 is maybe going to have a Sleep Spell prepped and that's hardly a TPK vs a level 1 party.

[GeraintElberion]

notabot wrote:

I just personally find it hard to believe that housewife of average ability would have 3 levels and 10-14 hit points. Give her a frying pan and her angry house cat and she could TPK a level 1 group that lacks a fighter class.

This woman:

Housewife 1 CR 1
XP 400
Female Human (Taldan) Adept 3
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init -1; Senses Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 9, touch 9, flat-footed 9 (-1 Dex)
hp 14 (3d6+3)
Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +4
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Club +1 (1d6/x2)
Adept Spells Prepared (CL 3):
1 (3/day) Cure Light Wounds, Cure Light Wounds, Cure Light Wounds
0 (3/day) Purify Food and Drink (DC 11), Create Water, Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 11, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 9
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 10
Feats Great Fortitude, Self-sufficient, Skill Focus (Profession [farmer])
Skills Diplomacy +0, Handle Animal +5, Heal +9, Profession (farmer) +10, Spellcraft +4, Survival +7
Languages Common
SQ +3 to stealth checks, deliver touch spells through familiar, empathic link with familiar, share spells with familiar
Other Gear Club, 7 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+3 to Stealth checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.

is little threat.

[notabot]

I think you forgot the racial ability bonus.

I'm betting you would change your tune if she prepared a burning hands (3d4 cone, average 7.5 damage save for half) or a sleep (you know, to kill those pesky rats or use sleep to stop fights between the kids).

And yes, I've defeated PCs with low level adepts. Don't pick on that crazy cat lady!

I'm just finding it hard to believe that villagers need heroes against goblins or other typical low level encounters (beginning of rise of the rune lords for good example) if the farmers have 3 levels and they are married to an adept who can burning hands for more HP than goblins have. Add in their oldest son who just joined the militia and then you even have a 15 (13+racial) strength level 1-2 warrior (2 combat related feats) to smack around the goblins with.

[Weirdo]

mdt wrote:

NPC's are, as everyone is agreeing, about 75% NPC classes. And Adept is an NPC class, not a PC class!. I see nothing in the rulebook saying that only one spell caster per city.

I'm not agreeing that there are 75% NPC classes. I acknowledge that James Jacobs presented that as an estimate for a large cosmopolitan city like Korsova, but that number seems way too high to me as a general rule for settlements given that in 3.5 the rule of thumb was ~90% 1st-level commoners.

mdt wrote:

Let's assume only 20% of the world are caters. That means that in an average Village (120 people) that 25 people are casters. The highest level they're have is 3rd level spells. That's a lot of casting, and when talking about cantrips, I see no reason why the local casters would not be willing to cast purify food and water for their neighbors a couple of times a week to help everyone keep fed. I also don't see any reason why farmers wouldn't be adepts, again, we're talking about an NPC class here, not Druids or Clerics. Sheesh.

There's also the question of level. You wrote "The average farm wife is likely a 2nd or 3rd level adept, while the farmer is an expert or warrior or mix." There's a big difference between saying "many farm wives may have at least one level in adept" and saying "the average farm wife is a 2nd-3rd level adept." UE describes a 3rd level expert as an "experienced nurse, in high demand and usually employed full-time by wealthy merchants or nobles." A 3rd level adept with ranks in heal should be similarly in demand. There would not be such a demand for 3rd level skilled NPC classes if these characters were common (the typical farm wife).

One problem I have with the current PF materials is that the NPC book and the spellcasting availability for settlements suggest high rate of higher than 1st level characters and skilled or spellcasting classes, but then they go and describe a 3rd level expert as being rare and in high demand.

[spalding]

But this isn't 3.5 -- which makes a huge difference.

Also I would offer that the average farmer's wife (or farmer) probably isn't magic using. After all we have stats for average already.

Also the average level in pathfinder has been given as 3~8 with 3~5 being the main area to look at.

[GeraintElberion]

notabot wrote:

I think you forgot the racial ability bonus.

I'm betting you would change your tune if she prepared a burning hands (3d4 cone, average 7.5 damage save for half) or a sleep (you know, to kill those pesky rats or use sleep to stop fights between the kids).

And yes, I've defeated PCs with low level adepts. Don't pick on that crazy cat lady!

I'm just finding it hard to believe that villagers need heroes against goblins or other typical low level encounters (beginning of rise of the rune lords for good example) if the farmers have 3 levels and they are married to an adept who can burning hands for more HP than goblins have. Add in their oldest son who just joined the militia and then you even have a 15 (13+racial) strength level 1-2 warrior (2 combat related feats) to smack around the goblins with.

She has an AC of 9 and her dcs are pretty thin.

A typical party of four (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric) with 15-point buy are going to murderise her with ease.

And, in any case, who said the level one party should be badass? They're heroes because they've got the stones, they're working on the skills.