For me the idea that an experienced villager might be a commoner 2/warrior 1 or a commoner 2/adept 1 really doesn't undermine verisimilitude for me.
Golarion (insert other generic fantasy world here) is a violent place, it really stands to reason that the average farmer has probably seen his share of conflicts if he's older than 18 or so.
Yeah most of what he does on a daily basis is relatively boring Profession (Farmer) stuff but he's probably been recruited to function in the militia and has probably been used to beat of the occasional goblin raid. In border areas with a high level of conflict he's probably even served in the king's military a handful of times. Most of that is just marching a drilling but he knows how to hold a spear and set a shield wall.
He's probably even got a set of leather armor (or padded armor) in a trunk that he can pull out if the constable needs help.
His wife has some skill at herbalism/healing on top of the profession (farmer) and profession (cook) skills. She's also been inducted into the local temple as a acolyte of Erastil so can function as a adept.
Most mornings she prepares a cure light wounds or maybe a cause fear spell (in case there are known predators in the area). Burning Hands or Sleep are rarely prepped.
Has anyone said that the NPC gallery might be good to look at?
She has an AC of 9 and her dcs are pretty thin.
A typical party of four (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric) with 15-point buy are going to murderise her with ease.
And, in any case, who said the level one party should be badass? They're heroes because they've got the stones, they're working on the skills.
Well its hard to do anything about the AC, though she probably should switch Str and Dex, making that a 10. average 15 point character will have a +1BAB if they are a fighter type, with a +3 str bonus, needs a 6+ to hit, but the cleric, rogue and wizard are unlikely to be as good off.
The DC if the racial ability score was on wisdom would be 13. Against burning hands the cleric and wizard are likely to fail, the fighter probably has a 50/50, and rogue should make it most of the time. 6-15 HP on a lvl1 PC (yeah, unlikely the wizard will have 10 con, but I've see it happen), burning hands hits for 7.5, most PCs are going to be sorely hurt, with a chance for pcs to drop if the dice roll well. A sleep spell DC of 13 will probably drop the fighter, rogue, the wizard might make it, and the cleric is safe more often than not.
Keep in mind I'm assuming that she only has 1 spell ready for self defense, and the rest for cure spells or whatever. This is an encounter where you have a NPC class, with the 3 point NPC buy, no combat gear, can drop half or more of the party with a sleep, or knock off half of the parties HP with a burning hands.
Now assuming that the average level in this campaign world is 3-8, why do we get to play heroes that start out weaker than the villagers we have to act as murder hobos for?
Has anyone said that the NPC gallery might be good to look at?
That's where most the NPCs in the thread came from up until this point.
You seem to be assuming that NPCs would be getting the elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8) instead of the base standard (13,12,11,10,9,8) or the bog standard (11,11,11,10,10,10).
A Human Commoner 2/Adept 1 might have the following array:
Str: 10 Dex: 10 Con: 12 Int: 9 Wis: 13 Cha: 11
The +1 on Con and Wis give the Goodwife a slightly more robust frame (+3 HP, +1 to Fort Saves) and good skill checks (+1 to Wisdom based skills). Save DCs on her spells are pretty low but she rarely needs to cast an offensive spell.
Has anyone said that the NPC gallery might be good to look at?That's where most the NPCs in the thread came from up until this point.
I must have missed that... I thought you were using the GMG not the NPC Gallery...
EDIT: Sorry NPC Guide.
EDIT2: The 11 & 10 Stat Lines is mostly for Monsters... The Base NPC and Heroic NPC Stat Lines are more for the 0HD Racial NPCs.
I think you forgot the racial ability bonus.
I'm betting you would change your tune if she prepared a burning hands (3d4 cone, average 7.5 damage save for half) or a sleep (you know, to kill those pesky rats or use sleep to stop fights between the kids).
And yes, I've defeated PCs with low level adepts. Don't pick on that crazy cat lady!
I'm just finding it hard to believe that villagers need heroes against goblins or other typical low level encounters (beginning of rise of the rune lords for good example) if the farmers have 3 levels and they are married to an adept who can burning hands for more HP than goblins have. Add in their oldest son who just joined the militia and then you even have a 15 (13+racial) strength level 1-2 warrior (2 combat related feats) to smack around the goblins with.
When do these villagers have time to go hunt goblins? While they can possibly protect their village from goblins, they don't have the time or resources to go out and hunt down the goblins.
Being willing to defend your home from brigands or goblin raiders is one thing. You should reasonably expect to see the militia being called out to deal with an Ankheg infestation.
Actually heading into the wilderness in order to trackdown the source of the goblin raids or the brigand camp is generally left to the professional soldiers or adventurers.
I typically make a large number of the NPCs of a village level 2 NPCs (Commoner 2, Expert 2, Commoner1/ Warrior 1) simply because CR 1/2 allows me to use a good number of them before completely overwhelming the low level PCs.
But honestly having somewhat competent NPCs really helps provide the resources needed by PCs plus means that even a low level party of PCs is going to have to somewhat mind it's manners in the average village.
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But this isn't 3.5 -- which makes a huge difference.
Also I would offer that the average farmer's wife (or farmer) probably isn't magic using. After all we have stats for average already.
Also the average level in pathfinder has been given as 3~8 with 3~5 being the main area to look at.
Where has it been given, aside from inferences in the NPC guide? This is a serious question, since I recently went looking for a settlement population/NPC generator in PF and had to default to the 3.5 system (which I had previously mothballed). I was disappointed to find that there was no PF version, and only found out today that James Jacobs had made that 25% PC class statement (again in the specific context of a Golarion metropolis).
If so, the UE entries on hirelings are clearly in error since if the average level is 3-5 then a 3rd level character should by no means be considered a particular expert in their field.
Also note that the CRB and the Gamemastery Guide contradict each other as shown earlier in this thread, since the former says "In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells...." and the latter indicates that 1st level spellcasting is available in a Thorp, and a small town typically has 4th level casting freely available.
Can you see where my confusion is coming from?
The difference is the Spellcasting in a Thorp might be via a traveling mage or a NPC with UMD or an Adept priest who can be called to the village. or Might simply be a Level 4 Paladin or Ranger. & can easily be removed by the settlements traits.
Remember Generic NPCs for Golarion are expected to be no more than Level 10. The GMG NPC Gallery is pretty much out of date.
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The difference is the Spellcasting in a Thorp might be via a traveling mage or a NPC with UMD or an Adept priest who can be called to the village. or Might simply be a Level 4 Paladin or Ranger. & can easily be removed by the settlements traits.
It's natural for there to be a number of spellcasters who travel between thorps too small to have their own casters. However, if you take the spellcasting level as "guaranteed" rather than "usually the maximum" then there always has to be at least one travelling priest and mage in town.
Remember Generic NPCs for Golarion are expected to be no more than Level 10.
Is this setting specific, or is it the basic assumption for the PF system (in terms of availability of spellcasting, hirelings, etc)?
The GMG NPC Gallery is pretty much out of date.
Because the NPC Gallery came out? Bestiary 2 and 3 didn't exactly make the first Bestiary out of date, aside from expanding monsters like the kyton or sphinx into a selection of related creatures. Or have they been slowly adjusting the "typical" farmer, guardsman, or noble?
I am saying that NPC Guide is superior in the creation of its NPCs over the GMG NPC Gallery...
And IIRC it actually has been mentioned in many places that most basic/generic NPCs (those with NPC Class levels) are below Level 10 & that most Heroic/Level 11+ NPCs are unique and rare.
And honestly the NPC Guide seems like it has nicer levels of power for the NPCs.
Does it say that the Spellcasting is Guaranteed or is that the highest you might can get?
EDIT: If the village is a Hamlet or smaller a single trait (Superstitious) can negate any possible Spellcasting. & actually can fit with just a little bit of fluffing.
Yeah that can definitely happen with a Hamlet or smaller (and it's cool that it can in my opinion) -- and possibly there could be fluff reasons a larger settlement might not have as much spell casting either.
Realizing now that we are talking two different books (I did confuse the reference to the NPC gallery with the GMG) what do we have in the NPC gallery that is different from the GMG?
Page 242 of NPC Codex has the relevant info on how to run them. They say the NPC classes they give are just suggested generics.
As for how they level them, they are all mono class, a 2nd level commoner is a pig farmer (typical farmer, for some reason they forgot the racial bonus in the statline). A typical local shaman is a lvl 2 adept. They put the barmaid at lvl 5 commoner (understandable considering bar-fights lol). Guards are still warrior 3.
They specifically say anything higher than lvl 10 is legendary heroes and PCs only. For instance a king is lvl 10 aristocrat.
Its a pretty useful book IMHO, and can be used with the GMG NPCs without much overlap. If nothing else its worth the PDF price if not the full hardback price.
Of the top of my head:
-A King/Queen is now Aristocrat 10.
-A Prince/Princess is Aristocrat 2.
-A Farmer/Pig Farmer is Commoner 2.
NOTE: The Stat Blocks are called King, Princess, & Pig Farmer.
Ninja'd: I really just look at the GMG's NPC Gallery & the NPC Guide as inspiration. Though I might end up pulling out some NPCs such as the King. Maybe the Falconer.
EDIT: Some NPCs, like the Squire, seems to be identical to their GMG predecessor.
& yes it is worth the PDF Price at the very least.
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You must consider that there is the "Pathfinder Chronicles: NPC Guide" too.
It is Golarion specific and has things like:
Absalom: Arcanamirium Maven
Human wizard 3
While the vulgar adventurer may wield magic like a hammer, the senior students of Golarion’s oldest school direct it like an
artisan’s tools. After years of hard study and brutal abuse, the
mavens stand ready to graduate and change their world with
their arcane skills.
Absalom: Puddles Thug
Human rogue 1/warrior 3
Andoran: Eag le Knight CR
Human ranger 4
Brevoy: Duelist For Hire
Human fighter 1/rogue 1
Hellknight Armiger
Human fighter 3
Trained in battle against devils so that they fear no mortal
threat, the Hellknights are a powerful force of order in Cheliax
and nearby lands. Those who have not yet attained the rank of
Hellknight are called armigers.
Cheliax : Scion of Thrune
Human aristocrat 3
A noble line counts more than just immediate descendants among its family tree. As a house succeeds, more and more opportunists crawl out of the branches, claiming whatever tenuous blood relation they can and fighting for scraps of wealth and power. Since the ascendancy of the thrice-damned house of Thrune, its ranks have swollen tenfold as every
cousin and half-blood bastard tears into each other in an orgy of political violence. The wisest enjoy magical assistance, but never rely entirely upon it.
Lastwall: Cavalry Officer
Human fighter 2/aristocrat 1
Linnorm Kings: Raider
Human barbarian 2/rogue 1
Taldor: Elite Cavalry
Human fighter 2/ranger 2
Varisia: Sczarni Legbreaker
Human expert 1/warrior 2
Varisia: Sczarni Smuggler
Human rogue 2
and so on.
I have cited only a few of them those that seem (to me) good examples of a trend in how NPC are generated by Paizo.
Generally people that had a good level of training or some direct experience with life troubles is between 2nd and 4th level.
Those guys are the base standard of their groups, not the elite.
The varisian Sczarni are particularly useful as a reference, I think. The rank and file of the organization are second level in PC classes or 3rd in NPC classes.
From that I infer that most NPC are between 2nd and 4th level. What make the difference for the characters like the nurse or doctor is how they have focused on something.
The nurse and the doctor have good wisdom, maximized ranks and skill focus in healing, so the typical 3rd level doctor cited in UE has a modified skill of 8-10 (depending on his wisdom) and the typical nurse 6-8.
The Sczarni legbreaker probably has skill focus intimidate.
Outside their narrow focus those character are generally weaker than low level PC, but in their chosen field they are on par or even better.
The point of all this rambling is that a typical NPC seem to have between 2 and 4 levels, generally in in NPC classes or a mix of PC and NPC classes, with a narrow focus in a couple of abilities.
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Ah, now I see - they've adjusted a few levels/builds. Glad to see that the prince/princess isn't an 8th level Aristocrat, that always bugged me about the GMG. I haven't really looked at the NPC Guide because I like to make my own NPCs, but I might at least get the pdf.
From that I infer that most NPC are between 2nd and 4th level. What make the difference for the characters like the nurse or doctor is how they have focused on something.
The nurse and the doctor have good wisdom, maximized ranks and skill focus in healing, so the typical 3rd level doctor cited in UE has a modified skill of 8-10 (depending on his wisdom) and the typical nurse 6-8.
The Sczarni legbreaker probably has skill focus intimidate.
Outside their narrow focus those character are generally weaker than low level PC, but in their chosen field they are on par or even better.
Makes sense, most professionals tend to specialize and Skill Focus is a bit of a no-brainer for an Expert.
Does it say that the Spellcasting is Guaranteed or is that the highest you might can get?
It's a little vague, unfortunately.
Spellcasting: Unlike magic items, spellcasting for hire is listed separately from the town's base value, since spellcasting is limited by the level of the available spellcasters in town. This line lists the highest-level spell available for purchase from spellcasters in town. A town's base spellcasting level depends on its type.
Some people read this as "the highest possible, may be lower in some settlements" while others read it as "the highest level spell is always X."
I don't have the NPC Guide although you people have me thinking about the PDF. I've always done my own NPCs and it doesn't sound too different.
For 3.x I decided time on the job = levels for NPCs. I figure from 3-6 years should equal a level depending on the environment (safe, dangerous, urban, countryside, etc.) and the class (i.e. Warriors working as watch will level up faster than a ceremonial guard in a quiet palace) with characters starting out at the appropriate age (by class) at level 1. For example a 32 year old farmer in a village who's been at the job since he turned 16 (and left dear old Dad's farm as a 1st level Commoner) and goes up every 5 years will be a 4th level Commoner. If said farmer was a yeoman farmer and militia member (the Yeomanry) who lived in a dangerous environment and leveled every 4 years he would be a 5th level character probably Warrior 2 and Commoner 3. A grocer in a safe district in a city might level every 6 years and be a level 3 Commoner. It's fairly easy to determing levels from age and class / environment and everything else pretty much falls into place (skills, feats, etc.). When they retire double the years to level up and consider a different class that reflects their changed status.
A few decisions have allowed me to populate my setting with NPCs whose level I find appropriate for the world they live in. My PCs have learned to respect the NPCs and not take thing for granted. And, I haven't gone crazy trying to determing every NPC as a blank canvas. I just need the role (ie. farmer, smith, watchman, etc.), the age and the place they are from. Fill in the details (stats, skills, feats) as needed (or use a standard set).
*edit* One of the things I found immediately attractive about 3.x was the ability to lay out your entire NPC population and have something besides 0 level "ordinary people" and retired adventurers. As a GM I love the NPC classes, it really helps bring the setting to life.
I agree that making them myself is usually a better solution but if I need a generic NPC I can pull them from the NPC Guide. It is really helpful and doesn't take much work converting the NPCs race or Archetype.
It can even be a great source of Pregenerated Characters if you want.
I have a Feeling I will be converting Valeros into a TWW for the next time I play in a 20 PBS game.
& yes most of the ones I referenced were based on the GMG. Though they did add in some new NPCs which are nice. Such as the Aloof Archer.
I also like how they aren't all Humans. THAT was my biggest complaint about the GMG Gallery.
Great thread. Now that the discussion has turned to NPC level demographics/ranges I feel the need to link to my npcs get experience too post which links to SKR's own 1xp a day article and many great NPCs and old threads from ENWorld about how NPCs will level up.
It too has most adult NPCs in the 2-4 cl range. (See the excellent MavrickWeirdo threads) Higher level ones often get age modifiers keeping hp and combat ability stagnating or even deteriorating.
Great thread. Now that the discussion has turned to NPC level demographics/ranges I feel the need to link to my npcs get experience too post which links to SKR's own 1xp a day article and many great NPCs and old threads from ENWorld about how NPCs will level up.
It too has most adult NPCs in the 3-4 cl range. (See the excellent MavrickWeirdo threads) Higher level ones often get age modifiers keeping hp and combat ability stagnating or even deteriorating.
Sweet! Now I just need to figure out how much XP the time breaks are in my Setting...
I have a chart I use, based upon age, and the diligence of the NPC. For the average NPC it takes 1 year per level you are making to go up a level. So 2 years for level 2, 3 years for level 3, etc.
I like the 1xp a day method or the suriving a year is CR x encounter method much better as it does not scale linear and has a cutoff at about level 8 iirc. I.e. you don't get to level 20 after 20 years.
Unfortunately craft skills do not translate into earned income in pathfinder and this is quite frankly correct. I did take into account that farmers are still doing stuff during the winter time which is accounted by the unskilled labor rate -- unfortunately they didn't spend their skill points on a second profession, quite likely because they couldn't find a teacher for that profession.
Realize that it could just as easily be the woman out in the fields and the man taking care of the house -- it really doesn't matter which is which. It's highly unlikely that both are going to be available for full time professional work, especially if they are crafting things (eats up a lot of time by the crafting rules even as it saves a lot of money). Crafting could easily be doubling some parts of the family income however that is likely to be seen in ways that would directly appear in the income stream of the family (hidden revenue and good will from the neighbors, perhaps a few cure disease from the priest for donations and what have you).
Again it's not impossible that a 'mature' family will be earning much more than suggested -- if you check out the innkeeper you'll notice that he and his daughters are readily raking it in...
The difference isn't the level of skill or quality of work, it's much more time, place, and circumstances -- things that afflict many people the world over even to this day.
Um what? Read the first sentence after "Check:" in the craft skill. Crafting most definitely translate into earned income in pathfinder and I've had several characters and NPCs earn money this way. So according to your post a smith earns nothing for his work? Absurd and incorrect.
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[...] I feel the need to link to my npcs get experience too post which links to SKR's own 1xp a day article and many great NPCs and old threads from ENWorld about how NPCs will level up.
I like the 1xp a day method or the suriving a year is CR x encounter method much better
Ah it seems I misrembered: SKRs theory about peasants postulates surviving the month is a CR 1 encounter for which the farmer gets some xp (which he shares with his wife and kids...).
MavrickWeirdo has the learn something new every day method (i.e. 1xp per day) and the other ENworld thread treats the year as a CR 2 encounter on average (also giving progressions for CR 1,3,4 years )
All of which surprisingly result in a very similar progressions.
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Um what? Read the first sentence after "Check:" in the craft skill. Crafting most definitely translate into earned income in pathfinder and I've had several characters and NPCs earn money this way. So according to your post a smith earns nothing for his work? Absurd and incorrect.Unfortunately craft skills do not translate into earned income in pathfinder and this is quite frankly correct. I did take into account that farmers are still doing stuff during the winter time which is accounted by the unskilled labor rate -- unfortunately they didn't spend their skill points on a second profession, quite likely because they couldn't find a teacher for that profession.
Realize that it could just as easily be the woman out in the fields and the man taking care of the house -- it really doesn't matter which is which. It's highly unlikely that both are going to be available for full time professional work, especially if they are crafting things (eats up a lot of time by the crafting rules even as it saves a lot of money). Crafting could easily be doubling some parts of the family income however that is likely to be seen in ways that would directly appear in the income stream of the family (hidden revenue and good will from the neighbors, perhaps a few cure disease from the priest for donations and what have you).
Again it's not impossible that a 'mature' family will be earning much more than suggested -- if you check out the innkeeper you'll notice that he and his daughters are readily raking it in...
The difference isn't the level of skill or quality of work, it's much more time, place, and circumstances -- things that afflict many people the world over even to this day.
with craft you don't earn an income, you produce something that has a value and can earn you an income. Or that can cover some expense you would have to cover without crafting what you need, or increase your wealth without producing any income.
If you craft a armor for yourself, you have produced an income? no. You have got an armor at a reduce cost.If you craft an armor and then leave ti at home and never sell it, you have produced an income? no. You have accumulated some waluable object, but no actual income.
If you take eggs, a fire and a pan and produce an omelet, you have produced income? no, but you have got a meal at a lower cost than that of buying the same meal in a inn.
To get an income for a craft skill you should use it purposefully to get that income, for a full working day, in a location where using that craft can get you an income. You can use craft (jewelery) as much as you wish while living alone in a island in the middle of the sea, until you get to a actual market you accumulated work hasn't earned you any income.
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while thinking about household income levels i came across this. Has some good links to life in the time of the settings.
http://www.cracked.com/article_20186_6-ridiculous-myths-about-middle-ages-e veryone-believes.html
Another thing to keep in mind is that with the amount of wandering monsters in PF. I would think most farmers are warrior 1/expert 1. it would only be in the capital or very secure areas that a farmer could get away with expert 2.
I would say different years should be worth a certain CR.
Say:
Peaceful Year(Little to No Threats): CR1
Standard Year(Moderate Threats): CR2 or CR3
Wartorn Year(Major Threats): CR3 or CR4
Cataclysmic Year(Near Apocalypse/Low chance of survival): CR5
Realize that later on in the thread I point out that they've changed the language and now you can use straight up craft checks to generate wealth as you can with a profession check.
...the average level in pathfinder has been given as 3~8 with 3~5 being the main area to look at.
What is this stated?
[...] I feel the need to link to my npcs get experience too post which links to SKR's own 1xp a day article and many great NPCs and old threads from ENWorld about how NPCs will level up.
I like the 1xp a day method or the suriving a year is CR x encounter method much betterAh it seems I misrembered: SKRs theory about peasants postulates surviving the month is a CR 1 encounter for which the farmer gets some xp (which he shares with his wife and kids...).
MavrickWeirdo has the learn something new every day method (i.e. 1xp per day) and the other ENworld thread treats the year as a CR 2 encounter on average (also giving progressions for CR 1,3,4 years )
All of which surprisingly result in a very similar progressions.
I've tinkered with 1 xp per day, varied it by level, etc. The math on a given NPC tended to get a bit complex. That's when I decided to go by age / years in profession. It's simpler. I went with a straight progression assuming that as NPCs leveled up they would pursue things which would gain more experience and continue their path on a linear progression. I assumed that the experience they gain is derived from a combination of pursuing their profession / craft, dealing with social challenges as well as the usual PC methods. That has led me to consider whether a dangerous area should be much more of an xp booster. I settled on it being slightly more advantageous; a year faster depending on class (more for Warriors).
I would only use it for Key NPCs.
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...the average level in pathfinder has been given as 3~8 with 3~5 being the main area to look at.What is this stated?
It's been stated at least once by paizo staff and bears out in everything else we see in print too -- after all they've given us the 'average farmer' and so forth and they are all averaging around 3~5th level. Straight from the GMG to the NPC gallery.
ON TO OTHER THOUGHTS:
I want to get back to the crafting thing a minute. Let's start with the premise that the village I posted produces raw materials for the most part. Let's also suppose that said village could be refluffed to instead be a mine, prime fishing location, or whatever for a certain resource.
Now if this is the case and the village is producing a net of 3,783gp as I originally opined, then we have a significant amount of raw materials. In fact we have enough raw materials to make 11,349gp worth of 'stuff'. Let say the DC for the 'average' craft check is 15 (this covers armors up to +5 AC, martial weapons, composite long and short bows, crossbows, and high quality items)
If the craftsman is much like the farmer (a fair assumption I think) then he'll have 2 ranks, a +1 ability modifier, and skill focus giving him a +9 on his roll. If he takes 10 he'll have a 19 meaning he can regularly make his craft without fail. 15x19 gives us 285sp or 28.5 gp worth of work each week consuming 9.5gp in goods.
With 9.5gp x 52 weeks a year the average craftsman can use up about 494gp in raw materials a year, making 1,482gp in products a year. This means the produce from each village can support 7.65 craftsmen.
So if we take out the costs of raw materials and nothing else then the average craftsman is going to make about 988gp and if he only can sell it for half price to a merchant then he'll only make about 497.4gp a year -- putting him slightly ahead of a farmer for yearly income.
Now I feel this needs adjusting.
1. There is no reason to include the innkeeper's income in this -- after all he's more of a services and final sales guy instead of an actual 'producer'. If we were to subtract his income (and the others like him including the guards and aristocrat's butler) we have a net income for the village of raw materials of 1,715gp, which only supports
about 3 and a half craftsmen.
2. This doesn't include the 'magical' economy -- yet. Since spell casting is functionally an unlimited resource I suggest it's going to be a demand based service industry.
In conclusion I would suggest that crafting as a part of the economy works at this point in time. The craftsman comes out a little better than the raw goods producer and there is room for the merchant to make profit from his sales of the goods made by the craftsman.
I want to continue this experiment because I would like to see if we can prove the prices for spells as given in the goods and services pages can be proven to be the optimal profit that is sustainable by the market (i.e. the most the spellcasters can get without cutting out huge sections of the market thereby requiring a much richer lord class to peddle to directly in a patronage system).
ALSO I would also like to next take a look at the labor rates for hirelings and what not in the book and see if we can't match them up as well.
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with craft you don't earn an income, you produce something that has a value and can earn you an income. Or that can cover some expense you would have to cover without crafting what you need, or increase your wealth without producing any income.
f you craft a armor for yourself, you have produced an income? no. You have got an armor at a reduce cost.
If you craft an armor and then leave ti at home and never sell it, you have produced an income? no. You have accumulated some waluable object, but no actual income.
If you take eggs, a fire and a pan and produce an omelet, you have produced income? no, but you have got a meal at a lower cost than that of buying the same meal in a inn.To get an income for a craft skill you should use it purposefully to get that income, for a full working day, in a location where using that craft can get you an income. You can use craft (jewelery) as much as you wish while living alone in a island in the middle of the sea, until you get to a actual market you accumulated work hasn't earned you any income.
That doesn't make any sense. I mean it's true, but irrelevant. The same exact argument applies to all Profession skills. If nobody's paying, you don't make any money. If you farm, but nobody buys your produce, how is that different from making a suit of armor and nobody buying it.
The PF rules say you can make X gold/week with a Craft or Profession check. It is assumed you're in a place/situation where there's a market for whatever your skill is.
If you were on a desert island you wouldn't be making day job checks.
Irrelevant? I cook food in my house for myself instead of eating at a restaurant, I reduce my expenses but it don't produce any income.
Conundrum was arguing that craft checks translate to a direct income, that is not true. If I am alone in my desert island I must make my Profession and Craft checks to eat and live but that don't produce any income.Same things for housewives that care for the family but don't sell what they produce. Attending the ailing grandfather will avoid the expense of paying a nurse, but it will not produce money.
So you don't make a craft or profession check and automatically get the money, you need to make it with the aim to raise money and not for other reasons.
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I've tinkered with 1 xp per day, varied it by level, etc. The math on a given NPC tended to get a bit complex. That's when I decided to go by age / years in profession. It's simpler. I went with a straight progression assuming that as NPCs leveled up they would pursue things which would gain more experience and continue their path on a linear progression. I assumed that the experience they gain is derived from a combination of pursuing their profession / craft, dealing with social challenges as well as the usual PC methods. That has led me to consider whether a dangerous area should be much more of an xp booster. I settled on it being slightly more advantageous; a year faster depending on class (more for Warriors).[...] I feel the need to link to my npcs get experience too post which links to SKR's own 1xp a day article and many great NPCs and old threads from ENWorld about how NPCs will level up.
I like the 1xp a day method or the suriving a year is CR x encounter method much betterAh it seems I misrembered: SKRs theory about peasants postulates surviving the month is a CR 1 encounter for which the farmer gets some xp (which he shares with his wife and kids...).
MavrickWeirdo has the learn something new every day method (i.e. 1xp per day) and the other ENworld thread treats the year as a CR 2 encounter on average (also giving progressions for CR 1,3,4 years )
All of which surprisingly result in a very similar progressions.
Probably working for 1 year multiplied by the level you are getting would work better.
Example: 16 guy ending his apprenticeship with 1 level of expert.After 2 year of work he become level 2 and is 18 years old.
After another 3 year he get become level 3 and is 21 years old.
Another 4 years and he become level 4 and is 25 years old.
After a further 5 years he become level 5 and is 30 years old.
Still a bit too fast, but acceptable. To get to level 10 this way you would have to live 70 years.
naturally it would require an appropriate "race multiplier" to avoid plenty of 20th level dwarves and elves.
What's this NPC Gallery I keep hearing about? I have the GameMastery Guide's NPC Gallery, and I have the NPC Codex. There's also a Golarion Specific one that was mentioned up thread. Are you referring to one of those or am I missing out on a potentially valuable resource?
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What's this NPC Gallery I keep hearing about? I have the GameMastery Guide's NPC Gallery, and I have the NPC Codex. There's also a Golarion Specific one that was mentioned up thread. Are you referring to one of those or am I missing out on a potentially valuable resource?
NPC Gallery is the name of a section of the GMG.
The other examples you give are uses of the skill, but not paying work.
Exactly my point, so why you are shouting against that?
There are uses of the craft and profession skills that don't pay.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another point about craft that I think is often underlooked, and that fixes a lot of the "problems" that I've often seen people complain about, is that you have to remember about aid another checks. Many "skilled labor" that earns 3sp/day, per the core rules, are people making DC 10 checks with a 0 mod. One common complaint that I've seen about craft is that it takes too long to make big ticket items. So let's look at a sailing ship worth 10,000 gp.
Say a master shipwright (expert/5) has a net craft mod of +15 (+2 INT, +2 from masterwork tools, +5 from ranks, +3 from class skill, +3 from skill focus). It could be higher, but let's go with this for now. I assume a ship is a "complex item", so craft DC of 20. Working on the ship by himself and taking 10, he gets 25 on his check, completing 25*20 = 500sp = 50gp worth of work in a week. So it takes 10,000/50 = 200 weeks = 4 years to craft a full fledged ship on his own. Most analysis I've seen stops here, and says "BROKEN!!! IT SHOULDN'T TAKE THAT LONG!!!"
Well now let's give him a team of 50 untrained laborers working as a crew on the ship. This seems a lot more reasonable, large objects like this wouldn't be built by a single man. Even if none of them has a rank in the skill, each week 55% of them can hit DC 10 with their +0 mod, so that's a +55 to his weekly check. Now he's hitting 80. Of course he'd add +10 to the DC, because why not, so with his team's help, the shipwright is now completing 80*30 = 2,400sp = 240gp of work each week. Now it takes 42 weeks (less than a year to build the ship).
Why aren't all the grunt laborers taking 10 to automatically succeed on their aid another checks? Fifty men should be adding +100 to the master carpenter's check. If the master takes 10 as well (no reason not to with that much help) he would have a total result of 125.
125 x 30 = 3,750sp = 375gp of work each week, or 26.6 weeks
That's just over half a year. That also means he can pay his laborers less and earn even more profit.
Does aid another say that? *goes to look it up*
EDIT: Darn.
Another thought is you could simply have multiple craftsmen working on the same project all at once.
Some projects are large enough they can be compartmentalized allowing for a more optimum mix of skilled and unskilled labor to build the larger whole.
I'm not going to sit down and do the math right now, but I could see a point where a patron for a ship might hire a master boatwright and his 3 apprentices to build a boat. The master being the level 5 presented above and the apprentices being regular craftsman (level 2). Given some unskilled labor each you could get three people making DC 30 (20 +10 to get it done faster) craft checks (using enough unskilled labor to make up the difference in the check) giving us 900sp x3 = 1,800sp worth of work done a week (assuming at this point the master craftsman is actually spending his time making sure it all gets done right instead of making the actual craft check).
I'm not sure where the actual break off for profitability to time saved would be for this, but it stands to reason it could be done.
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Um what? Read the first sentence after "Check:" in the craft skill. Crafting most definitely translate into earned income in pathfinder and I've had several characters and NPCs earn money this way. So according to your post a smith earns nothing for his work? Absurd and incorrect.I read that as you agreeing with Abraham and disagreeing with Conundrum that you couldn't translate craft skills into earned income in the same way you could profession skills.
If all you meant is that you can use craft skills outside of the day job rule, then I guess that was so obvious I couldn't believe that was your point.
As I read Conundrum position as "making a craft check will always earn you an income", I felt there was the need to specify that it is not true.
The slowness of the forum in these days (form me at least) helped in making the post unclear as it freezed wen I did hit submit. So it was impossible to return and edit the post to make it clearer. I wasn't even sure that piece was posted until I returned this morning.
The other examples you give are uses of the skill, but not paying work.Exactly my point, so why you are shouting against that?
There are uses of the craft and profession skills that don't pay.
Perhaps I misunderstood you from the start. This started with this exchange:
with craft you don't earn an income, you produce something that has a value and can earn you an income. Or that can cover some expense you would have to cover without crafting what you need, or increase your wealth without producing any income.Unfortunately craft skills do not translate into earned income in pathfinder and this is quite frankly correct.Um what? Read the first sentence after "Check:" in the craft skill. Crafting most definitely translate into earned income in pathfinder and I've had several characters and NPCs earn money this way. So according to your post a smith earns nothing for his work? Absurd and incorrect.I read that as you agreeing with Abraham and disagreeing with Conundrum that you couldn't translate craft skills into earned income in the same way you could profession skills.
If all you meant is that you can use craft skills outside of the day job rule, then I guess that was so obvious I couldn't believe that was your point.
Third time addressed but I feel it is important:
The language under the craft skill changed since the beginning of the thread. As such some of what was said before isn't true anymore as craft now has the ability to be a means of direct wealth generation like the profession skill.