Flurry of Manuevers


Rules Questions

Lantern Lodge

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So since this ability replaces flurry of blows, am I correct in assuming that the monk can execute a flurry of manuevers regardless of the weapon he/she is wielding? So finally I can now play a monk who, by lvl 2 (1 multi with free-hand fighter), is disarming his opponents and killing them with their own weapons!?


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1) i´m not sure if it has been clarified yet exactly how flurry of maneuvers works.

2) regardless, ANYBODY, whether they are a normal monk flurrying, or a non-monk full attacking, can substitute disarms for any attack they make (attack action, iteratives, AoO´s) regardless of the weapon they are wielding. this has always been the case in PRPG.


It seems like the way it is written, you wouldn't be that much of a badass at 2nd level. You might be able to disarm and automatically pick up the weapon, but you'd still be limited to other maneuvers only. Since the ability is Flurry of Maneuvers, you wouldn't get any weapons attacks while flurrying. Even if you did, it seems that you can still only flurry with monk weapons. And let's not forget that you need proficiency with a given weapon to even get in a decent hit.

Lantern Lodge

submit2me wrote:
Since the ability is Flurry of Maneuvers, you wouldn't get any weapons attacks while flurrying.

Hmm text states "as part of a full attack action, a manuever master can make one additional combat manuever". It never says that all of the attacks must be combat manuevers. So theoretically couldn't you free disarm at a -2 penalty and then carry out your normal full attack action?

Quandary wrote:
You might be able to disarm and automatically pick up the weapon, but you'd still be limited to other maneuvers only... Even if you did, it seems that you can still only flurry with monk weapons.

It never states that all your attacks must be manuevers and doesn't say anything about limited to monk weapons. I feel this is intentional because otherwise the ability is useless.


You can only flurry with monk weapons. There is no reason to assume it works differently with this archetype. They probably didn't bother mentioning it in order to save space and assumed people would understand that the case is the same here. Also, the ability is called Flurry of Maneuvers. It replaces Flurry of Blows. The text of Flurry of Maneuvers only mentions maneuvers, not unarmed strikes or other weapon attacks. If you're using a weapon to perform a maneuver, that is another thing.

This ability really confused me too until my GM pointed out that it is worded the exact same way as Flurry of Blows. You just replace all attacks (with a possible disarm or trip in place of an attack) with all maneuvers instead (meaning ALL maneuvers, even ones that are their own separate action that can't normally be used in place of an attack).

Once I realized that the text is basically the same for both abilities, I quickly dismissed this archetype and moved on with my life. Flowing Monk (mixed with Sacred Mountain) is much cooler.


submit2me wrote:
You can only flurry with monk weapons. There is no reason to assume it works differently with this archetype.

You can only use Flurry of Blows with monk weapons. There is no need to assume the archetype works differently; it clearly does as written, no assumptions needed.

Barring errata, you may Flurry of Maneuvers with any weapon, or while wearing armor, as the only restrictions on such for any 'Flurry' in the monk class are on the Flurry of Blows class feature, not Flurry of Maneuvers.

You can't use 'Flurry' as shorthand for both; they are completely different abilities.

That would be like saying Master's of Many styles are weapon restricted for Fuse Style because it replaces Flurry of Blows.. Its simply incorrect.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Wait wait wait.

The very first line on Flurry of Maneuvers says "as part of a full-attack action".

The ability never states ANYWHERE that the attacks that are part of the definition of a full-attack action get replaced by maneuvers.

Seems to me that a level 1 maneuver master can make a full attack (one attack, as normal) plus a maneuver.


Jiggy wrote:

Wait wait wait.

The very first line on Flurry of Maneuvers says "as part of a full-attack action".

The ability never states ANYWHERE that the attacks that are part of the definition of a full-attack action get replaced by maneuvers.

Seems to me that a level 1 maneuver master can make a full attack (one attack, as normal) plus a maneuver.

Absolutely. Why would it work differently than that?

Thats the whole idea :)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought people were saying that the entire flurry was nothing but maneuvers (no normal attacks allowed).


Jiggy wrote:
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought people were saying that the entire flurry was nothing but maneuvers (no normal attacks allowed).

Its pretty much a completely awesome ability.

Even if it weren't weapon unrestricted, since Maneuver Masters have monk unarmed strike, they could perform their maneuvers unarmed and still make a full-attack with their weapons normally. Which is probably why they didn't bother to restrict it; such restrictions are (nearly) irrelevant with how it actually functions.


Kaisc006: You seem to be quoting me... but aren´t actually, that´s what Submit2me wrote.

Anyhow, besides the 2 points I made, I think that technically you can´t GRAB THE OPPONENTS WEAPONS as part of the Disarm... Not even Greater Disarm does that, and although I have a feeling there exists SOME Feat to let you do this, I don´t think you will be doing it at 2nd level... at least without a lenient GM. Per RAW, if the weapon drops in an adjacent square you can pick it up, but that would be a Move Action and not be something you can do mid-Full Attack/Flurry and continue attacking.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Quandary wrote:
Anyhow, besides the 2 points I made, I think that technically you can´t GRAB THE OPPONENTS WEAPONS as part of the Disarm...

I presume his idea was that the disarm was performed without a weapon, per this rule:

Combat Maneuvers: Disarm wrote:
If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.

This would require an extra -4 on your disarm attempt (as stated in the preceding paragraph in the disarm rules) and - since you wouldn't be using a weapon - wouldn't get enhancement bonuses and such, but it would get you their weapon if you managed to pull it off.


Quandary wrote:

Kaisc006: You seem to be quoting me... but aren´t actually, that´s what Submit2me wrote.

Anyhow, besides the 2 points I made, I think that technically you can´t GRAB THE OPPONENTS WEAPONS as part of the Disarm... Not even Greater Disarm does that, and although I have a feeling there exists SOME Feat to let you do this, I don´t think you will be doing it at 2nd level... at least without a lenient GM. Per RAW, if the weapon drops in an adjacent square you can pick it up, but that would be a Move Action and not be something you can do mid-Full Attack/Flurry and continue attacking.

It comes down to this line:

Disarm wrote:
If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.

I'd say that "automatically" means "without spending an action" in this case. But you'd be eating the -4 from this:

Disarm wrote:
Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.

As a random side point, just to be clear, IUS does not get you around that -4 penalty, correct? Or does it? I can't decide. It says that you are considered armed even while unarmed... so you aren't unarmed and don't take the -4? Or you are still unarmed so you do?

EDIT: Ninja'd on point 1. I've managed to talk myself into both positions on point 2. Anyone who knows more than me want to help?


Thanks, I was confused with all the talk of Monk Weapons, etc...

I agree that IUS wouldn´t get around the -4 penalty, to say so would require considering IUS to both simultaneously NOT be a weapon (to allow grabbing the weapon) and being a weapon (to avoid the penalty). Both of those aspects of unarmed Disarm are right next to each other, as mentioned, and since IUS is such an obvious, core part of the rules, if you weren´t meant to apply one of those aspects (while applying the other), I would imagine it would say so directly.


Bascaria wrote:
As a random side point, just to be clear, IUS does not get you around that -4 penalty, correct? Or does it? I can't decide. It says that you are considered armed even while unarmed... so you aren't unarmed and don't take the -4? Or you are still unarmed so you do?

Attempting a disarm while unarmed has a penalty.

Are you armed? If so, no penalty.

Being armed is not the same as using the weapon to disarm.

You can hold a sword (thus, armed) and disarm someone without using the sword. No penalty, you're armed. You didn't use a weapon, so you can pick up the item.

Improved Unarmed Strike does not turn your hands into weapons.

The Disarm combat maneuver is not a spell or effect that enhances or improves either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Thus, for the purposes of Disarm, a monk's unarmed strike is not a weapon.


Quandary wrote:

Thanks, I was confused with all the talk of Monk Weapons, etc...

I agree that IUS wouldn´t get around the -4 penalty, to say so would require considering IUS to both simultaneously NOT be a weapon (to allow grabbing the weapon) and being a weapon (to avoid the penalty). Both of those aspects of unarmed Disarm are right next to each other, as mentioned, and since IUS is such an obvious, core part of the rules, if you weren´t meant to apply one of those aspects (while applying the other), I would imagine it would say so directly.

But here is the argument for why IUS would get around it.

You can grab the weapon if you disarm without using a weapon. IUS is not a weapon, thus if you use IUS to disarm, you can grab the weapon.

The -4 comes from attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed. It's a bit subtle, but there is a distinction. And IUS says:

Improved Unarmed Strike wrote:
You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.

The clause after the hyphen, I think, is just a clarification of one implication of this, not the sole implication of being considered armed even while unarmed. IUS does not, however, make your fists into manufactured weapons (which I think we can safely read "without a weapon" in the disarm rules to mean "without a manufactured weapon").

So, with IUS, you are considered armed when using your fists, but your fists are not manufactured weapons, and thus you would be able to grab the disarmed weapon automatically, but you would also not be making the attempt unarmed, thus no -4 penalty.


Yeah, I can see that reading... It´s definitely arcane enough that by any reasonable standard for rules editing, that needs to be spelled out directly because it´s not just a normal application of common rules, but rather something that is probably totally unique and doesn´t come up anywhere else in the game but here. Calling out how Improved Unarmed works here hardly seems a huge drag on the rules, and would make it 100% clear to EVERY player/GM, rather than something easily over-looked/mis-interpreted/etc.

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