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For some reason i seem to remember that Kobolds were kind of Dog like...I suppose i think of angry little Chihuahuas walking on their hind legs with daggers.
Am I crazy thinking this? In the D&D game when did they become reptilian? Whose brilliant idea was it to associate the Kobold with the dragon? where did that come from?
So were Kobolds ever dog like? were they always reptilian?
Thanks
They were dog-like in 2E.
They went dragonic in 3E.
And after Meepo, there's no turning back.
They were described as "dog-like" in the 1st edition Red Box too!
They were dog-like in 2E.
They went dragonic in 3E.
And after Meepo, there's no turning back.
They were reptilian in 1E so it has turned full circle
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I believe they were always reptilian, BUT they had a dog-like appearance in the earlier versions of the game (red box through 2nd Ed).
In 3rd Edition they played up the reptilian aspect and dropped the dog-like appearance all together.
*Edit- Ninjad by the Set himself. And yeah I remember them being described as "yappy" also.
BTW who ever created auto spell correcting needs to be shot. It changed yappy to happy. (did it again too!) Idiot programers...
As I recall the original AD&D Monster Manual described their language as sounding like dogs barking.
As I recall the original AD&D Monster Manual described their language as sounding like dogs barking.
+1. This is how I was taught, Kobolds look lizard like and bark.
YIP!
(yes)
The pre-4e/Pathfinder core rules on kobolds:
A. Reptilian Kobolds
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual, 1977, p.57.
"If 200 or more kobolds are encountered in their lair there will be the following additional creatures there: 5-20 guards (as bodyguards above), females equal to 50% of the total number, young equal to 10% of the total number, and 30-300 eggs."
"The hide of kobolds runs from very dark rusty brown to a rusty black. They have no hair."
(For the scales, see the kobold artwork on pp. 57 & 58.)
Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, 1981 (Moldvay), p.B37
"They have scaly rust-brown skin and no hair."
Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, 1983 (Mentzer), Dungeon Masters Rulebook, p.32
"They have scaly, rust-brown skin and no hair."
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monstrous Compendium Volume 1, Kobold page
"Barely clearing three feet in height, kobolds have scaly hides that range from very dark rusty brown to a rusty black."
"In a lair there will be 5-20 (5d4) bodyguards, females equal to 50% of the males, young equal to 10% of the males and 30-300 (3d10x10) eggs."
Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia, p.187
"They have scaly, rust-brown skin no hair."
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monstrous Manual, p.214
"Barely clearing three feet in height, kobolds have scaly hides that range from very dark rusty brown to a rusty black."
"In a lair there will be 5-20 (5d4) bodyguards, females equal to 50% of the males, young equal to 10% of the males and 30-300 (3d10x10) eggs."
Dungeons & Dragons Third Edition Monster Manual, p.124
"Kobolds are short, reptilian humanoids with cowardly and sadistic tendencies."
"A kobold's scaly skin ranges from a dark rusty brown to a rusty black color."
Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Monster Manual, p.161
"Kobolds are short, reptilian humanoids with cowardly and sadistic tendencies."
"A kobold's scaly skin ranges from a dark rusty brown to a rusty black color."
B. Dog-Like Kobolds
Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, 1981 (Moldvay), p.B37
"These small, evil, dog-like men usually live underground."
Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, 1983 (Mentzer), Dungeon Masters Rulebook, p.32
"These small, evil, dog-like men usually live underground."
Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia, p.187
"These small, evil, dog-like men usually live underground in clans of 10 to 60 members."
(There are references to kobolds having yipping dog voices in the 2nd and 3rd edition monster collections, but not to the kobolds being dog-like.)
C. Dwarf-Like Kobolds
Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, 1977 (Holmes), p.29
"These evil dwarf-like creatures behave much like goblins, but are less powerful."
D. Dragon-Like Kobolds
Beyond the description of their language as Draconic in the 3.x Monster Manuals, there were no references at all to dragons in any of the core kobold monster entries published at any point prior to the 4th Edition Monster Manual/Pathfinder Bestiary.
TL;DR of the above:
Kobolds have been reptilian since 1977; they were undescribed prior to that. They were dwarf-like in Holmes rules. They were both doglike and reptilian simultaneously in the non-Advanced D&D line back when there was such a line. Dragon-ness is a very recent feature.
In 2e they were dog-lizards. Before that I think they constituted as goblins.
The 1e DMG has an illustration of kobolds fighting a dragon on page 21. They have a distinctly canine appearance. But then, so do the illustrations in the 1e Monster Manual, albeit also with scales.
Whatever the text says, the art is lizardy dog men in 1e.
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In 2e they were dog-lizards. Before that I think they constituted as goblins.
What is it, exactly, that causes people to say blatantly incorrect things like that when somebody else just checked the actual text and, in fact, quoted it?
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Thank you all for your very helpful posts. So i can see i am not completely crazy....just somewhat crazy.
See thank you for providing all of those quotes. it seems in some places they were described as dog like: yippy yip yip, and in others reptillian, hairless with scales and yappy.
and dog like with scaly skin.
now i see why i was confused...not that it takes much.
Again thanks for the post research, and directions to illustraitions
Elyas
See, dude, its a technicality. Chill. I don't remember if there was a split between the Advanced D&D and a second edition non advanced. All i remember is AD&D and I'd imagine a lot of people are in the same boat even IF they're not getting all of their information from a history lesson.
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In 0E, they were described as goblin-like.
In 1E, there were described as having a hide, not scales. The picture showed a dog-like humanoid.
In 2E, Monstrous Compendium, they are described as having scaly hides, dog-like yapping, and the picture doesn't really resemble a dog-man or a dragon-man; looking more like a stunted goblin. The Monstrous Manual updated the picture, but they look more like a rat-man than a dog-man or a dragon-man.
In the Rules Cyclopedia, they are are described as dog-like humanoids.
In 3.5, they are described as reptilian humanoids, with yappy dog-like voices. The picture looks like a (rather goofy) dragon-man.
Even in 1st edition, they were drawn with scales (and horns, and described as hairless), so, even with the more dog-like snouts of those days, they weren't really little dog-men.
Although I do remember them being described as 'yappy' at least once.
I love that picture. But I was never quite sure what spell that was supposed to be.
in the Dungeons and Dragons arcade game, they were little furry dog-like creatures with tiny horns...they left out the scorpion on a stick, but it was pretty much like the 2e pic IIRC
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I'm not THAT old ;)They were described as "dog-like" in the 1st edition Red Box too!They were dog-like in 2E.
They went dragonic in 3E.
And after Meepo, there's no turning back.
I am, and he's right; they were described as dog-like in the red box. And in the prior "pink box", AND in the printing before that. I'd have to break out my copy of the white box to check the description there...
Yes, I am old(er). ;)
I love that picture. But I was never quite sure what spell that was supposed to be.Even in 1st edition, they were drawn with scales (and horns, and described as hairless), so, even with the more dog-like snouts of those days, they weren't really little dog-men.
Although I do remember them being described as 'yappy' at least once.
Confusion, I believe.
Even with 3rd edition, the Kobold for me never changed. they will ALWAYS be doglike.
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Even with 3rd edition, the Kobold for me never changed. they will ALWAYS be doglike.
And this is why the who conversation is kinda dumb. If you like your kobolds dog-like, then the only thing that has to change is the physical description. Why do they think they are descended from dragons? Well, because kobolds, whether dog-men, dragon-men, or anything else, are pretty damn stupid. So you don't even have to change that aspect.
Or maybe they just think that Smaug got jiggy with Fenris.
I love that picture. But I was never quite sure what spell that was supposed to be.Confusion, I believe.
Isn't casting confusion on kobolds a bit redundant? I mean, they're little yappy dog-men that think they're descended from dragons.
Isn't casting confusion on kobolds a bit redundant? I mean, they're little yappy dog-men that think they're descended from dragons.
They were a pain in the arse in DRAGON MOUNTAIN though. That was a good adventure. Had the same artist for the Dark Sun Campaign setting too, not Brom, I mean the penciller for interiors.
I removed a post and a reply to it. Civility, please.
In AD&D second edition they were doglike small humanoid creatures. This is how I will always remember kobolds. It will be a challenge for me to imagine them as Draconic looking hairless creatures.
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In AD&D second edition they were doglike small humanoid creatures. This is how I will always remember kobolds.
According to both the AD&D 2nd Edition "Monstrous Compendium Volume One" and then later the AD&D 2nd Edition "Monstrous Manual", the 2nd edition kobold was described as a "hairless reptilian humanoid with horns, a rat-like tail, and a yipping voice". Nowhere in 2nd edition is the kobold described as dog-like. Even the pictures in both sources do not have them looking anywhere near dog-like...