There are a couple of useful items for that:
- glove of storing (free action to recover the infusion);
- spring loaded wrist (swift action to get a potion in hand from the sheath)
Thanks.
Still doesn't solve the problem if administer a elexir to an unconscious creature as a full-round action.I guess errata and Dennis's suggestion (the spell or the spear) still is the only fix.
Token thanks, instant brushoff.... classy.
It wasn't my intent.
The intent was I think you are wrong but do I appreciate the feedback.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Token thanks, instant brushoff.... classy.
It wasn't my intent.
The intent was I think you are wrong but do I appreciate the feedback.
Actually, that was from your comments to James, not to me. It may not have been your intent, but from my POV it seemed pretty much what you communicated.
Communications, a modern miracle, a lost art.
I cant see any other interpretations.
The verbal component is "take one down, pass it around" and everyone drinks a sip as part of the spellcasting?
Am I missing something? James never said it was a move action to take out an extract and a standard action to drink it, he said that about infusions.
From what I read, Zark seems to think James was talking about extracts.
The two are different, are they not?
Or am I indeed missing something?
Or am I indeed missing something?
- An extract can be used as a Standard action. This includes drawing and drinking.
-An extract cannot be used on other people.
-Infusions can be used on other people, but by raw there's no listed action type to use them. James is saying (if I'm reading him right) that its a standard action for the alchemist to use an infusion on someone else since he's "Casting" it but a draw and drink (= 1 full round) action for someone to use on themselves?
It doesn't quite mesh up with what he said before about infusions being a draw/drink action for anyone.
Actually, that was from your comments to James, not to me.
Yes I know, and my answer was It wasn't my intent.
Communications, a modern miracle, a lost art.
It may not have been your intent, but from my POV it seemed pretty much what you communicated.
Came back for one more swing? Classy. I don't mind, but get of your high horse or live up to your high moral standard.
Your are good with words. You are better than me anyway and you should be. Communication - a lost art? You know what? You are probably right.That's why we have this thread.
That's why there is a rules forum
That's why there is a FAQ button at the top right of each post.
That's why there is a FAQ with FAQ answers.
That's it took Paizo two YEARS to answer the very much recurrent question: Do I need a trip weapon to trip. Surprise, surprise, when the FAQ answer was out posters started to argue over the trip FAQ answer , because the answer was unclear, and that's why Paizo rewrote the FAQ answer on Trip.
We, and the Devs too, are only humans. Sometimes we make mistakes and we all fail from time to time. Devs and the community alike. This includes JJ, you, me and the rest of the world. And if the Paizo has any aliens, elf, gnomes or ogres working for them let's include them as well.
Failure is nothing to get upset about. It's a fairly normal condition; an inevitability in ninety-nine percent of all human undertakings. Success is rare -- that's why people get so cranked up about it.
not my bold
Communications, a modern miracle, a lost art.
stuff
Important stuff. Deserves its own thread. Really!
We should all treat each other with respect and perhaps it is time to raise a debate on that.How do we treat each other? Are we scaring off the Devs and other people/posters? Are Devs turning their back to us because we scared them off and/or because we don't treat them with respect?
I work at a call center. Every day I have people calling me moron, idiot, d*ck, jerk, c*nt, *sh*le, etc. Same goes for my colleagues. They too are called names and get abuse EVERY DAY, but not from ALL of our customers.
People shout at us, some people cry, some even threaten us. Can I go to my boss and say: Couldn't we turn our back to the customers if they don't start treating us with respect?
I try to be professional and don't let it get to me. Do I fail? Yes, I human. Sometimes it does get to me. I guess it's the same for the people working for Paizo.
But turning your back on the customers because they talk back? Because they want a FAQ that is actually updated REGULARLY?
Turning your back on the customers because they don't trust you?
I have never met JJ. I have never spoken with him on the phone.
I don't know him. I have however asked him many things and he has helped my many times. Most of the times I trust him. I do not however trust him every time. Nor do I trust all of my friends all the time. But when I choose to ask him I have allready desided to trust him. I ask JJ because I have choosen to ask JJ, not Jason or Sean.
I have notice one thing. At work, when I get upset its often the same thing. An upset customers call. I do my job and try to help. The customer isn't satisfied so I try to help some more. The customer still isn't satisfied. Instead of saying. "Sorry I can't help you. You just have to wait until XXX calls you" I get engaged and I do something I usually shouldn't do. I try to make up for XXX mistake by trying to fix something XXX should be fixing.
My bet it is often - but not always - the same thing here. If community would get to their the FAQ question eventually, be it within a month or two (or 3) people would be more cool.
If JJ said, hey you have to wait for the FAQ, but here is my take on it. Things would probably different.
You see, the customers may also turn their back on the Devs and their products. Respect goes both ways. Let me give you a telling example. There have been some confusion regarding energy drain and negative levels. Especially what is a level-dependent variable and how is it affected by negative levels. Does a 5 level wizard with one negative level cast a fireball with 4d6 or can't ha cast any fireball. It was debated in more than one thread. Jason B's when it to the thread. Made some snark remarks and locked the thread. Is that showing people respect? And we still to this day haven't gotten an answer. And the Devs can't even agree on the drain rules. Even Zurai got confused in the end:
The more I think about this, the less I like it.
I think we have to restrict it to character level-dependent, rather than class level-dependent. Why?
Because BAB and Saving Throw Bonuses depend on class level, but not character level. If we apply the "level-dependent variable" text to class levels, any multiclass character is utterly and completely hosed.
So, I withdraw my statement that Caster Level is a level-dependent variable. It's a class level-dependent variable, but that way lies madness.
I can't think of any character level-dependent variables off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's some somewhere.
Respect is earned, and implying your fans is stupid and then end with "I am going to lock this one down. If folks want to discuss... start a new thread" is not showing people respect. Nor is ignoring questions or posters. If the answer is obvious it would have taken Jason 1 minutes to answer. The same time it took him to write the snark remark and look the thread. If the answer isn't obvious and needs some thoughts then it's obviously deserves a FAQ spot.
Is this showing respect":
"Yeah.. this old thread is full of suppositions that I do not believe to be true. I am going to lock this one down. If folks want to discuss... start a new thread.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing,
JJ has my respect even if it may not seem so and I'm glad the issue was brought up. I will try to think before I post.
Putting the three answers together this is what i get.
1) An alchemist with the infusion discovery can, when preparing his extracts for the day*, make any extract as an infusion. If he does so the infusion is effectively a potion for the purpose of being used and has to be drawn (move action) and drunk (standard action)by either the alchemist or the person he hands it to. I was certain you could make infusions of true strike, now i'm only pretty sure.
2) An alchemist using an extract is casting a spell. The rest is just flavor text. If the alchemist has the infusion ability, they can cast spells that are legal to be cast on others on others. Whether they pour it over someone's head or quickly do the boxer in a corner thing and squirt it down their throat is rather irrelevant. You could not "Cast" true strike on someone else in this fashion. I'm unsure how this is supposed to work with multiple targets, but the alchemist does have access to spells like mass fly which explicitly have to work on multiple people. I could see it taking time to pass the bottle around or the alchemist having an instant wet t shirt contest with the party.
*lets just leave the leaving slots open thing alone for a moment
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@ BNW
Possibly it work with him imbibing most of the extract (and so activating it with his magic aura) and sprinkling the other targets with a few drops of it.
As long as the other targets of the spell have to be within touch range or a relatively small area, like when you cast haste, it can work.
We could add some fluff saying that the charged droplets are magically directed to the spell targets by the alchemist aura.
A bit stretched as an explanation, but it don't seem bad mechanically and acceptable as the image of the thing go.
"Sparking trails of drops moving from the alchemist to his targets, charged with magic."
I have seen images like that one in some film and cartoon.
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No, you don't understand!
Because he works so hard at his job and treats customers so well, that gives him the right to be rude, dismissive and demand immediate attention for his problems on the internet.
/sarcasm/
Its really the fault of the developers. If they would only stop being so lazy and just answer the FAQ requests on the forums instead of working on new content and products for their customer base, people would be far less angry about things.
/sarcasm/
The Internet: Serious Business.
I was simply pointing out a mistaken assumption on your part.
Sorry but I don't understand. No Irony or sarkasm from my behalf.
I really don't understand what you mean or meant.
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This is the kind of question I would shoot at Skip Williams over at Kobold Quarterly.
If you can't trust The Sage (erm, The Kobold!) then who the heck can you trust? :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This is the kind of question I would shoot at Skip Williams over at Kobold Quarterly.
If you can't trust The Sage (erm, The Kobold!) then who the heck can you trust? :)
If he doesn't care about James Jacob's opinion on the issue then why would he care what Skip thinks? James wrote the class and is one of the senior developers at Paizo.
stuff
I never claimed my posting was work related and perhaps you are not implying it. I wanted to point out that I can sympathies with the Devs when they have to deal with angry/rude customers and I also know why it sometimes gets to you, at least some of the reasons. Shutting down a call center because 5 - 10 % of the customers acts like jerks is just as stupid as the Devs turning their backs on the messageboards.
I don't need two weeks off from work, but I probably need some time off from the messageboards. Actually a good idea.
JJ is not the only one who raised the question on we treat the Devs (and fellow people on these boards). Jason Bulmahn have made a similar statement so perhaps the topic needs some more attention.
Listen up,
I got a thick skin. You have to in this industry, especially when your designs go out for public playtest. I expect some percentage of folks, who have no decorum or respect, to be rather rude and irritating. Believe it or not, I still get something from their posts, but let me tell you, it makes my life a lot easier if folks remember that I am a person like anyone else and if we work together and be polite toward each other, this whole process goes a lot smoother.
I know that some things are not working as planned. That happens. That is why we playtest. If you want to participate and help me make the class better, great, welcome aboard. If you can't be respectful and polite to me and the fellow people on these boards, you are going to find yourself mostly ignored by me, and possibly given an extended time out.
There are host of bits and pieces of this class that are going in for a redesign or tuning. You can either be part of the process... or you can just rail against everyone else for not seeing things your way, bounce from thread to thread insulting everyone who disagrees with you, and be completely marginalized. Your choice...
@ CaptainSockPuppet: That is not what I said, but obviously I had it coming. The Internet.
I'm of, got some rereading to catch up on.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rbr
Alchemist, Chirurgeon, breath of life: How can I use this extract to bring someone back from the dead?
The normal action economy hinders the chirurgeon's ability to use its power over death class ability (which adds breath of life to his formula book).
Normally, drawing and drinking an extract is a standard action.
Normally, administering a potion to an unconscious creature is a full-round action (the rules don't state what action it is to do so to a dead creature, but it is presumably the same).
Because breath of life must be used within 1 round of death to restore the subject to life, these action requirements mean the chirurgeon can never use this extract to restore someone to life.
In the interest of having power over death actually fulfill its intended purpose (giving the archetype the ability to restore the dead), that ability will be changed to allow the chirurgeon to draw and administer a breath of life infusion to another creature as a full-round action.
This will be updated in the next printing of Ultimate Magic.
I've totally forgot about this (embarrassing) thread of mine..... my sins come back to haunt me.
PDT, thanks for the answer.
Does this mean the Chirurgeon must be within 5 feet of the creature when it ‘dies’ ?
The victim must be ‘cured’ within 1 round of death, so no room for the Chirurgeon to move? Or I’m I wrong?
That appears correct. Otherwise, it would have to be a standard action (or less).
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By the time you have Breath of Life, there's probably someone in the party who can cast Dimension Door to get you into position. If not, there's the Quick Runner's Shirt which gets you an extra move action.
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That the Chirurgeon's breath of life can now restore life at all is an improvement, but you're still left seeking extra action economy to make it practically usable. One option is to purchase (not craft) a wand of breath of life, but that trick can be done by anyone with a good UMD modifier.
Breath of life is a 6th level spell. You can't put it into a wand, you need a staff.
Aargh, 5th level spell!
Slip of the finger. Bad finger, bad.
:P
It is added to the chirurgeon's list as a 4th level extract at 10th level
edit:
Looking at the first two posts by James Jacobs, my gut feeling tells me he got a point and I also feel there is something with the PDT ruling that feels unfulfilling, or at least there is something wrong with this ability.
We are not talking about potions, but infusions right?
Shouldn't drinking an infusion equal casting a spell? So the Alchemist drink the infusion/casts the spell, moves to the target and touch the target.
Just as a Cleric can cast CLW and touch herself or touch an ally, shouldn’t it be the same when it comes to infusions?
edit:
Looking at the first two posts by James Jacobs, my gut feeling tells me he got a point and I also feel there is something with the PDT ruling that feels unfulfilling, or at least there is something wrong with this ability.
We are not talking about potions, but infusions right?
Shouldn't drinking an infusion equal casting a spell? So the Alchemist drink the infusion/casts the spell, moves to the target and touch the target.
Just as a Cleric can cast CLW and touch herself or touch an ally, shouldn’t it be the same when it comes to infusions?
Infusions aren't spells. You can't pass out spells to your party at 2nd level, for example.
There are some things infusions can do that spells can't and some things spells can do that infusions can't. They are not the same.
I know this, but the way breath of life works feels awkward. There must be a simpler way to deal with the problem.
Infusions aren't potions, in fact they are closer to spells, but they seem to be treated as potions.
First, I'm glad that the PDT resolved this issue. I'm not thrilled with the answer--I would have preferred it could still be administered as a standard action so that you weren't required to be luckily standing within 5' of the guy when he drops in order to breath of life him--but I appreciate the resolution.
That said, I really want to touch on this comment:
In fact... I think the community could benefit a LOT from embracing the philosophy of "It's okay to play the rules via a different interpretation than someone else-EVEN if that someone else is Jason Bulmahn or someone from Paizo."
I could not agree with this sentiment more, because I think table variation is an extremely important and positive part of roleplaying that has been slowly dying out due to a general lack of trust in GMs.
However, I can't help but point out that Paizo (though not necessarily James Jacobs) created and encouraged this problem themselves, by creating and supporting Pathfinder Society.
Table Variation only works for home games. It can't exist in a game structured to be part of a global community with shifting GMs and "official" continuity. It's not possible because it's actually not allowed--PFS GMs are shackled to RAW in a way other GMs aren't.
So, while this would never be an issue in a game I ran (I make the changes that allow Breath of Life to, you know, work), it could have been a real issue in a PFS game and thus resolution was necessary.
One other thing:
It's true that I'm not on the design team. But I did design the alchemist, and that design work is available for anyone to look at-it was basically the first playtest incarnation of the class, more or less. It then went through the same playtest feedback/development process as the other base classes-a process I was NOT involved in. Furthermore, I was not involved in the design of the chirurgeon archetype...
...but that said, I do have a LOT of experience with the Pathfinder rules. And I've worked with Jason for nearly a decade. I feel pretty confident that the majority of rulings I would make on the game would be the same as his rulings-with a few exceptions where our fundamental philosophy on gaming differs. And where those philosophical differences cause different takes on rules elements, I cede the ruling to Jason and the design team (but only after stating my case so that they've got another take on the ruling to consider before making their decision).
Folks are free to treat my advice and rulings and help on these boards as "unofficial" or "optional" or even "untrustworthy" if they want, and I try not to let that bother me... but I've seen that attitude pop up enough on these boards that I generally don't answer rules-based questions on the rules forums.
And since I'm one of the most active Paizo employees on these boards, that means that folks have more or less "scared off" what could be a pretty handy resource for them to resolve questions and conflicts in their own game. Which is kind of sad. So... hopefully folks take my previous post in the way it was intended: as helpful advice and a look behind the philosophy of my own game design and interpretations of the rules.
In fact... I think the community could benefit a LOT from embracing the philosophy of "It's okay to play the rules via a different interpretation than someone else-EVEN if that someone else is Jason Bulmahn or someone from Paizo."
I have to admit on pulling a "James isn't official" one time that I remember. I would like to apologize, even though James said it doesn't bother him, just because it shows disrespect. And we should always try to show respect to others on the boards and in the game.
I know why I used it that time, because conversation tends to stop once we have an authoritative response. Appeal to authority isn't a really a fallacy when the authority is the company that publishes the game and write the rules we are discussing.
So I hope I didn't contribute much to "scaring off" James, or anyone, from posting in an official or other than capacity. Your desire to share your insights is similar to my desire to continue the conversation: discuss why it would or wouldn't work that way.
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sorry to revive an old thread, but it made more sense than creating a new one.
can the "healing bomb" discovery be used in conjunction with a breath of life infusion to give a ranged option?
Healing Bomb*: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it heal damage instead of dealing it. Creating a healing bomb requires the alchemist to expend an infused extract (Advanced Player’s Guide 31) or potion containing a cure spell. A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bomb. Creatures in the splash radius are healed for the minimum amount of damage the cure spell is capable of healing. A healing bomb damages undead instead of healing them.
it seems like that would solve a lot of the confusion and make it worthwhile for a chirurgeon to have. I've ended up the primary healer in a homegame of runelords (we lost our life oracle), and I'm trying to get the most bang for my buck. currently, if I wasn't right next to the dead player, I'd need to use a hero point to get the extra action necessary to pull the infusion, move the the corpse and cast. I'm not sure if my GM allows potions in a spring loaded wrist sheath.
apologies if this was answered elsewhere and I couldn't find it.
basically, I'm trying to differentiate the line "Creating a healing bomb requires the alchemist to expend an infused extract or potion containing a cure spell." is that an infusion, or a cure potion? or is it a cure in infusion or potion form?
there are a lot of applicable infusions that could be use as healing bombs that aren't cure spells. any of the "remove" spells immediately come to mind, in addition to keeping "breath of life" a single round action.
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I've looked into the tumor familiar (rabbit) which should give me the ability to deliver touch spells 50 ft away. I cast into the familiar, familiar moves to target and standard to deliver breath of life.
I don't know what you mean by "real alchemist" but I won't have anywhere near 50 ft of movement. he's a healer with some offensive abilities in the form of bombs. too busy keeping everyone else alive to buff himself a ton.