Hey folks.
I'm running Kingmaker, just started it as a matter of fact. So far we are having a blast. We're only one game session in, but some pretty exciting things have happened.
One of my players is playing a Paladin of Erastil. The God was chosen based on the recommendation of the Player's Guide. It also happens that this Player has the highest Charisma in the party, and the group has pretty much already decided that he'll be taking the spot of King.
But then we started thinking . . . man, doesn't it seem weird that a Paladin of Erastil would want to grow a city? Doesn't Erastil despise the stench of cities? I know Erastil is not fond of Abadar, for instance.
Has anyone else come across this problem? I feel like the doctrine of Erastil may be hard to maintain in the face of a growing Kingdom. Followers of Erastil are supposed to preserve the integrity of rural communities . . . not necessarily spend tons of BP's trying to build up one urban center after another.
Erastil is obviously being pushed pretty hard in this adventure path, but I can't help but wonder if he's the best thematic choice for the overall adventure.
What do you guys think? Am I the only one with this problem? Am I mistaken about the doctrine of Erastil?
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not necessarily! Granted, just by looking at the wiki, it says
Erastil teaches his followers to embrace traditional and simpler ways of life, free of the constraints of modern civilization
A small town firstly might not have that issue, but may I suggest the concept of someone wanting to build a town/city that still embraces these folksy ways, in essence, a city at peace with itself, and at one with nature?
That last one'd make the druids happy, right? The idea of an actual integration of nature and civilization could be an aspiration to some.
It's a pipe dream, sure, but people can dream
You're not entirely wrong, but it's not that he's opposed to cities as much as he's opposed to new ideas. A country with Erastil as it's patron will have cities, but they will be more likely to be smaller, more conservative ones. Think Denver during the old west period, or Anchorage today.
Erastil dislikes "cities", yes. But not towns and communities. He's not the god of the wilds (in Golarion, that's Gozreh).
At the risk of a political reference: he's very Red State. But not anarchic or back-to-nature. He might get along with Druids, but he's not one of them, nor a valid alignment for one.
Erastil might impose some sort rule about "no cities larger than 2 or 3 districts" or somesuch.
Honestly, that's best for the game. The Kingmaker campaign works the best when you have a large area, spread-out with cities. The minmaxing works best to have one huge city and no lands around it. Enjoy the exploration and the taming of the wilds!
My player and I have sat down and read everything we could find about Erastil. It really did leave us scratching our heads on a few issues.
I guess I'm not super sure where a community with traditional values turns into an urban mess. I'm also not sure how the mechanics will reflect the change from one into the other -- for instance, I know cities start to get Thieve's Guilds and such.
I'm curious if a Paladin can really get behind endorsing the role of a Spymaster in a leadership position. I'm also feeling like a Paladin won't be able to allow things like Black Markets and Brothels inside the community.
I don't know if those restrictions will allow the mechanics of the city building to flourish against future threats, or if it will take away mechanical values the players may need to eventually succeed.
When I consider a Paladin of Erastil, I start wondering what other restrictions should be placed on the build of the city. I like the idea of limiting it to a couple of districts, but I'm worried that the gold value won't be high enough, or that the defensive value won't be high enough later on . . . or that building choices will be made that might seem to run antithetical to the doctrine of Erastil. I guess I just have a lot of concerns going ahead. I've only read the first two modules so far, and I definitely haven't played with the mechanics of the city building yet.
The biggest thing to keep in mind, is that from a "game" perspective, the "kingdom building minigame" is rediculously easy to "win."
Don't think of it like combat: where it's "hard to win", because that encourages players to make "smart" or "tactical" descisions. If they don't, they "lose" (ie "die").
The initial founding of the kingdom is a little rough, and there will be some stress at first. However, during this time you'll be the type of small villiage that Erastil would want, so your Paladin can put his heart in it. And buildings like "Theive's Guild" or "Brothel" aren't tthings you could afford, so it's a non-issue.
Once you get back those first 6-12 months, then the Kingdom Building game gets easy. Stupid easy. You can chose to not have all sorts of buildings and be just whimsical and you won't lose. (Just keep your hex-count until control.) It's simply not-an-issue.
So sure, have your Paladin put in all sorts of restrictions: it won't collapse the game.
And if things like "brothels" bother you (they bothered me), then change them. In my game, they are "gambling halls", and provide the same bonuses and penalties. *shrug*
Thank you guys, I really appreciate your input.
I'm glad to know that I'm not setting my players up for disaster if I try to inject a little verisimilitude into the potential Paladin King. I was really worried about that.
Also discussed here;
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/kingmaker/archives/clericsOfErastilHowDoYouThinkTheyFareWithAGrowingCivi lization
Also, you're falling into the trap that a lot of people do and forgetting that... well, to put it bluntly, your PC is just one man. Even if your entire party were composed of Erastil worshipers, it's likely that the thousands of colonists that come from all around aren't. They'll demand larger - and safer - cities and communities.
It should also be noted that the population figures given in the kingdom building rules are pretty ludicrous. Build a house and immediately get 250 people! Right...
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The paladin of Erastil was also chosen to be the king in our campaign. He's taken on more of the 'community' aspect of Erastil and less of the 'nature & forests' aspect of him. So, the king is all about promoting and supporting the community and families and whatnot, not about keeping balance with nature. As a matter of fact:
Also remember we are talking about what the followers are doing -- not the god. We know that many times followers don't get things right, they exaggerate parts leave other parts out or chose to do or not do parts they know they should.
The gods don't step down to smite these people or correct them because it's simply not worth it. Even at level 20 you are still very minor in the grand scheme of things, sure you can take out a balor or five... but just how many balors are there out there? You are simply sitting at about their power level.
Basically you finally made it over floor sweeper at that point -- he might care enough then to actually correct some of your ignorance.
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Here's my take on it...
Erastil is an Ancient God. Like all of the Ancients, his followers have changed and evolved over time. They've adapting and re-interpreting their faith many times over. No longer the Stag Worshipers from centuries past.
In my Golarion, followers of Erastil seeks to find a place of balance in the wake of the expanding civilized world of man. Family has become a main focus. The Church amasses a huge collecting birth and death records, family tree and purity of bloodline documentation.
Civilization is not feared or shunned, instead it is treated with respect and balance with nature is considered at every stage of development. A second Ancient who has great strength in the region, is Gozreh. At this stage of our timeline, their goals currently march parallel, so strife between them (or their followers) is non-existent.
I think the point I'm trying to make by sighting my own examples, is that the Gods/Religion in this setting is intended to add flavor and give some guidance to your game's direction. You should never feel like you're being held hostage by ANYTHING written in any RPG material! Change it to suit your game's flavor and your player's style of play.
You're the best judge of that!
As I frequently play Erastil worshipers in-game I've thought about this a fair bit.
The 'sound-bite, knee-jerk reaction' in my opinion is 'Cities Eat People. Communities Feed People.'
Your Paladin of Erastil is going to want to make sure that the 'Cities' in ?his? kingdom don't eat people, i.e. minimize/eliminate things like slums/tenements, make sure that city hexes have enough farm hexes around them to cover their maintenance BP costs, things like that. Obviously those are 'meta' terms, but they are also a good starter metric for how well he is taking care of his community. Unrest is a supposed to be an indicator that the community (in this sense the kingdom population as a whole) is or is not being properly cared for.
Also the paladin might view himself as a sacrifice in order to protect the common people in the villages "around" and "close" to the city, also he might chose to not live in a palace (like) building but instead live in a small house.
My group also was quite nature focused, and didn't like the idea of building many cities. Therefore, I came up with the following rules:
Presented below are additional buildings and improvements that can be building outside of cities. Please note that constructing any of these improvements takes the place of the "build a farm" action in your kingdom turn.
Please also note that Camps, Farms, Lands, and Mines are mutually exclusive - you can have a farm OR a mine OR a camp OR a land in a hex. None of these improvements represent a single building in a 12-mile hex. It's not just one farm, or just one mine, or just one camp. Building it means you have devoted the primary physical and human resources of that hex to the activity of farming (farm), mining (mine) or logging (camp).
Allied Tribe (4 BP): An allied tribe Hex provides the country with an internal trade partner and defensive force. +2 Economy, +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier. An allied tribe hex does not cost any consumption per turn. An allied tribe hex can only be established in a hex containing a tribe of humanoid creatures with which the PCs are on friendly terms.
Fishing Camp (4 BP): A fishing camp can be built in a hex including or adjoining a lake. However, only one fishing camp can be build per lake. A fishing camp reduces consumption by 3 BP per turn.
Fort (12 BP): A sturdy structure that serves as a guard post
and lookout for danger. +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier; Unrest –1. A fort can be build in any hex containing a road or river, even if a camp, farm or mine has already been established. If a city or town is built in an area with a fort, the fort is treated as a watchtower.
Logging Camp (6 BP): A logging camp can be build in a forest area with a road or river. +1 Economy, +1 Stability. The economy bonus is doubled if the hex contains a resource like rare lumber: +2 Economy, +2 Stability.
Mine (6 BP): A mine is used for recovering valuable or less valuables minerals, ores and gems. A mine can be built in hills or mountains if a road or river is present. +1 Economy, +1 Stability. The economy bonus is doubled if the hex contains a resource like gold or silver ore: +2 Economy, +2 Stability.
Rivers: Much like roads, rivers can be used for commerce. For every 4 hexes of navigable rivers your kingdom controls that contain navigable rivers, you gain +1 Economy. (Yes, hexes with a river and a road count for both.)
Pastoral lands (1 BP in plains, hills only): Instead of a camp, farm or city, you can choose to assign an area as pastoral lands for nomads to graze their herds. This does not require a road. Pastoral Lands reduce Consumption by 1BP; +1 Economy and +1 Loyalty.
Settled (1 BP in plains, forests, hills / 4 BP in swamps, mountains): Instead of a camp, farm, city, or pastoral lands you can choose to lightly settle a claimed hex. This does not require a road. Settled lands reduced Consumption by 1; +1 Stability.
A town overall functions like a city with the following exceptions:
Location: A town can be created in a hex that already contains a camp, farm or fishery. A town can only contain one district, and a town district consists of 4 2x2 city grids.
Costs: Cost for preparing a town district site and time for preparation are reduced, to reflect the more limited size of the town.
Preparing a Town District Site
Terrain___Cost__________Time to Prepare
Forest_______2 BP__________1 month
Grassland____1 BP__________Immediate*
Hills________1 BP__________1 month
Mountains___6 BP__________ 2 months
Swamp______4 BP__________2 months
Consumption: Town districts add 0.5 a BP to consumption. Consumption is rounded up.
Buildings: Only the following buildings can be build in a town: Alchemist, Barracks, Brewery, Brothel, City Wall (1 max), Dump, Granary, Graveyard, Herbalist, House, Inn, Keep, Mansion, Mill, Monument, Park, Piers, Shop, Shrine, Smith, Stable, Tannery, Tavern, Tenement, Town Hall, Tradesman, Watchtower.
Upgrading to a city It is possible to upgrade a town to a city. However, this takes time and costs BP identical to the cost of preparing a town district.
A Village overall functions like a city with the following exceptions:
Location: A village can be created in a hex that already contains a camp, farm or fishery. A town can only contain one district, and a village district consists of a one 2x2 grid.
[b]Costs: Cost for preparing a village district site and time for preparation are reduced, to reflect the more limited size of the village.
[b]Preparing a Village District Site
Terrain___Cost__________Time to Prepare
Forest_______1 BP__________1 month
Grassland____1 BP__________Immediate*
Hills________1 BP__________1 month
Mountains___3 BP__________1 month
Swamp______2 BP__________1 month
Consumption: Village districts don’t add to consumption.
Buildings: Only the following buildings can be build in a village: Brewery, Brothel, Granary, Herbalist, House, Inn, Mill, Shop, Shrine, Smith, Tannery, Tavern, Tenement, Tradesman, Watchtower.
Upgrading to a town: It is possible to upgrade a village to a town. However, this takes time and costs BP identical to the cost of preparing a town district.
Erastil is always my Exhibit A in "Why Paizo Needs To Hire A Folklorist."
Something that's also relevant about the city building game is that it isn't necessarily something that the characters are in charge of as much as a game the players are playing. The game is called "Kingmaker," not "General Contractor," much less "Zoning Board Member." The city building is going on around them, both at their directives and in spite of them. Having a party of teetotalers doesn't mean there won't be taverns, just that any taverns will actually be speakeasies.
Personally, this is the sort of thing I think is better approached as an RP challenge. OP is very correct that there's a tricky distinction to "where a community with traditional values turns into an urban mess," but in my thinking, that's what's makes it fun to play out.