I like that, adding 1/2 the dice to normal strikes is good. I still think they desperately need more +hit.
My goal was to not necessarily make them really good at hitting things, but rather to develop it so that when they did hit things...it hurts. Even when they're not flanking.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
The biggest issue I'm seeing is that they have tons, literally tons, or precision damage, but no precision to go with it. Precision implies being able to "hit" first and foremost, the rest of it is "a vulnerable point for more damage", the problem is, and the rogue is literally the only melee-exclusive class with no bonus to hit.
Monks are more accurate with their flurry of blows, Barbarians gain a bonus to strength, and Cavaliers get bonuses on their charges, typically associated with their order. Every other class is capable of switching between melee and ranged with equal proficiency.
The classes I mentioned also get, or function as though they have, a full BAB. The obvious solution is to give the rogue a bonus to hit.
Personally, I think canning Sneak Attack would be a good idea to start with. It may be the iconic feature of the Rogue, but it's also rarely useful, as it is pretty difficult to actually get into a position where it can be used. As such, I think replacing it with other combat abilities that are useful more often may be a good idea.
Of all the classes in the core book, the rogue seems to me to be the one least in need of help from tweaks.
As Lockgo mentioned earlier, there are copious avenues for improving the sneak attack. The rogue in the primary game in which I play, he sneak attacks nearly every round of combat. If he's not rolling a whole box full of dice for damage, he's instead tripping and stealing something from the opponent. That's pretty darned rogue-y.
Secondly, I think the Rogue needs something unique that other classes do not get. At the moment they do not have this. As for what that could be, however, I still need to do some thinking.
What the rogue gets in spades, far more so than any other class (other than possibly the fighter), is versatility. The same character class, as written in the core rulebook, with no other supplements, can create more varied, functional types of character than any other. If you find your rogue can't do anything very well, then he's probably doing everything in the game not very well. A rogue can be built as a smart fighter (as in the case of my party member), as a magical trickster (through magic-use rogue talents), as a controller of environments (skill distribution), or as a Baggins-family lucky doofus.
If I were looking for classes to pick on, I'd steer more toward the ranger, or maybe the wizard vs sorcerer.
... literally the only melee-exclusive class with no bonus to hit.
Why do you see the rogue, or even the sneak attack, as "melee-exclusive"? Ranged attacks are eligible to be sneak attacks within 30', and always are made with the target at least being denied their Dex bonus to AC.
... literally the only melee-exclusive class with no bonus to hit.Why do you see the rogue, or even the sneak attack, as "melee-exclusive"? Ranged attacks are eligible to be sneak attacks within 30', and always are made with the target at least being denied their Dex bonus to AC.
That is very hard to pull off effectively and consistently.
To the point where rogues may as well be only melee.
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... literally the only melee-exclusive class with no bonus to hit.Why do you see the rogue, or even the sneak attack, as "melee-exclusive"? Ranged attacks are eligible to be sneak attacks within 30', and always are made with the target at least being denied their Dex bonus to AC.
How do you deny the enemy its dexterity bonus to AC from 30 feet away?
The issue is that if Rogues got full BAB, then they're a warrior class. Rogues are presented as opportunistic hooligans, lacking the discipline or overt power/training to be a dedicated warrior.
My proposal was +1 to hit per SA die when delivering SA. It hilights their "aptitude" for being underhanded.
The other one was for a set of Rogue Combat Styles, similar to a Ranger, except they would include such things as...
They'd get additional feats and talents which cater to the combat form.
As for OUTSIDE of combat, I think the Rogue is fine as-is. Especially since the combat enhancements will free up existing feats and talents for stuff which gives the Rogue the edge for his skills.
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This is how to fix Rogues
1.)Make the party more willing to sneak
A.) Give them the ability to detect fights they can not win before initiative is rolled
B.) Improve AID ANOTHER so that the Rogue can significantly help his party sneak2.) Improve the Rogue's abilities to act like a Rogue in combat
A.) Casting spells is not acting like a Rogue
B.) Just adding bonuses to to hit and damage is not acting like a Rogue
C.) Some ways that are 'acting like a rogue' are dirty trick and poison use, but what are some others?
I would say that given the rogue's class skill in UMD, and their minor and major magic rogue tricks, casting spells could very well be roguelike. Maybe not for your rogue, but I would sure like a few extra magical rogue abilities.
Then again, I'd probably make a ninja. *Invisibles off*
This is how to fix Rogues
1.)Make the party more willing to sneak
A.) Give them the ability to detect fights they can not win before initiative is rolled
B.) Improve AID ANOTHER so that the Rogue can significantly help his party sneak2.) Improve the Rogue's abilities to act like a Rogue in combat
A.) Casting spells is not acting like a Rogue
B.) Just adding bonuses to to hit and damage is not acting like a Rogue
C.) Some ways that are 'acting like a rogue' are dirty trick and poison use, but what are some others?I would say that given the rogue's class skill in UMD, and their minor and major magic rogue tricks, casting spells could very well be roguelike. Maybe not for your rogue, but I would sure like a few extra magical rogue abilities.
Then again, I'd probably make a ninja. *Invisibles off*
UMD and casting spells are clearly not the same thing.
Invisibility has a lot of weaknesses that stealth does't. What I think would be far more rogue-like would be for him to be convincing people he can go invisible when, in fact, his stealth is just that good.
Unless it's one of those "I'm invisible when no one is looking at me" things, I don't see how that's possible. Without magic.
Admittedly I have not read through the entire posts, however I not sure I see the rogue "problem" as anything other than a party problem.
I am currently playing CotCT, and we have a rogue who is extremely effective.
This may be because the rest of the party is aware of setting up the rogue for sneak attacks.
I play a fighter who can outlay good damage, however the rogue with sneak attack does immense damage. I have invested in all the drag feats to aid the rogue in setup and we have a monk who bounces around the battlefield to set up flanking.
I realize that maybe the Rogue suffers from having to worry about these things where a barbarian is mostly operating at full damage capacity all the time but the rogue has other skill sets too such as talking us out of many sticky situations that the rest of the group couldn't do.
just my opinion,
Munchkin time: Multiply skill points level (before Int mod and such) by 2 and increase class skills list (all classes), maybe a choose what you add. Give Rogues the option to make one increase to either HD size, BaB progression or a save (or make it 2 and add Proficiencies).
Ran the numbers and came up with the DPR for my modifications.
My modifications to the Rogue class.
Overall, it's about 75 DPR when flanking while optimized, and around 40 when attacking at other times, again, while optimized (two-weapon fighting).
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Ran the numbers and came up with the DPR for my modifications.
My modifications to the Rogue class.
Overall, it's about 75 DPR when flanking while optimized, and around 40 when attacking at other times, again, while optimized (two-weapon fighting).
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I would add one more thing to the rogue.
Force of Personality(Ex): The Rogue can use their Charisma modifier in place of their Wisdom modifier for all sense motive, and perception checks as well as will saves.
That eases a lot of the rogues MAD problems and it fits well into the idea of a rogue not being the wisest person, but somehow blustering through on bravado and personal charisma.
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My thought is that has hard as it would be to set up mechanically what the rogue needs is dirty fighting. Let the fighter be king of combat -- the rogue should be the king of never fighting fair. Poisons, positioning, dirty tricks, tripping, underhandedness, the whole kit... the question is how to do it in such a way that is:
1. Rogue only.
2. Within the verisimilitude of the game.
Ran the numbers and came up with the DPR for my modifications.
My modifications to the Rogue class.
Overall, it's about 75 DPR when flanking while optimized, and around 40 when attacking at other times, again, while optimized (two-weapon fighting).
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I would add one more thing to the rogue.
Force of Personality(Ex): The Rogue can use their Charisma modifier in place of their Wisdom modifier for all sense motive, and perception checks as well as will saves.
That eases a lot of the rogues MAD problems and it fits well into the idea of a rogue not being the wisest person, but somehow blustering through on bravado and personal charisma.
I don't know, I usually think of rogues as pretty wise.
You don't get too far if you aren't careful. Smooth talking is there to get you out of trouble when you screw up.
Ran the numbers and came up with the DPR for my modifications.
My modifications to the Rogue class.
Overall, it's about 75 DPR when flanking while optimized, and around 40 when attacking at other times, again, while optimized (two-weapon fighting).
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I would add one more thing to the rogue.
Force of Personality(Ex): The Rogue can use their Charisma modifier in place of their Wisdom modifier for all sense motive, and perception checks as well as will saves.
That eases a lot of the rogues MAD problems and it fits well into the idea of a rogue not being the wisest person, but somehow blustering through on bravado and personal charisma.
I don't know, I usually think of rogues as pretty wise.
You don't get too far if you aren't careful. Smooth talking is there to get you out of trouble when you screw up.
Wise people stay at home where it is safe, and don't go out on adventurers in the first place.
I can't help but wonder if it might be interesting to give the Rogue limited spellcasting, something along the line of 4th-level spells like the Paladin and Ranger, but arcane instead of divine, and Int-based and memorised as a wizard does.
I could easily see the Rogue as picking up such minor magical skills as it advances. I mean after all, it can already disable magical traps and use magic devices, so to me, learning how to cast a spell or two would be right up its alley.
As far as I'm concerned, this would help give the rogue the added oomph and flexibility it needs to be more viable outside the urban niche.
For a more "charismatic" rogue, you could always opt for Cha-based instead of Int-based, but I'd feel we'd be stretching the rogue's ability requirements too thin.
Lets not forget 3.5 assassin. :p
I think I was mostly ignored. :( "Thanks the Old Guy, at least someone read my wall of text. :p"
So I guess overall this comes to the other issue. Versatility vs optimization. This is why Bard and Rogues are always consider on the lower tiers. They are suppose to be able to do a lot of things. Not great at any one thing, but optimizer will claim that is a horrible idea.
Which technically, at higher levels, yeah, that can be.
Again, I mention that sneak attack feat from Dragon magazine. maybe a revision of it. Sack x sneak attack hit dice(s), get +(2*x).
Maybe critical hits could also add something to sneak attack damage? For every Sneak attack Dice you roll, you gain an additional +1 to critical damage, BEFORE MULTIPLIER.
I'm sure mister double keen rapier/scimitar will love getting +20 damage 30% of the time.
You will probably start seeing a lot of double light picks and hand axes too, and it will feel like the good old luck rogue. "5-10% of the time, but damn will you feel it in the morning."