They should be the best at hitting people with sticks and other pointy things. They should also be the best at hitting people with blunt things. Or at doing things well many times in a day (as rarely as that comes up...).
I do enjoy verisimilitude though.
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Well, if you're all in favor of a spell letting a 3rd level wizard be just as good of a rogue as a 10th level rogue, why not a spell that lets a 3rd level wizard be just as good of a fighter as a 10th level fighter?
Hell, why not a spell that lets a 3rd level wizard be just as good as a 10th level wizard?
Because that's silly and gamist.
You're defining "a rogue" solely by his ability to be sneaky. I would certainly hope that being invisible would be better than even the best sneaker ever. You're still visible while sneaking around!
Honestly, I have absolutely no problem with beings that are able to disregard physics and manipulate eldritch energy to change reality to better suit themselves being better at stuff than classes that rely on physics.
If I wanted balance, I'd play other systems!
I don't know if it's ironic or whatever, but afaik DnD / PF are the most balanced systems I have tried. None of the other systems I have played attempt balance to the same degree as these.
In fact one of the reasons I initially was very much against DnD was becaeuse it was balanced, while my previous systems (mainly Drakar & Demoner) (called DoD for short) wasn't.
For example, DoD has a scribe class. Can use weapons. Knows a lot of stuff. Can't cast spells. When I say they CAN use weapons I mean that they can learn to use them... Just like every other character.
It also has a monk class, specialized i knowing stuff about religion and... They have some moderate weapon skills. Yep. This isn't the DnD monk.
And they have the wizards who pwn everything.
I was specifically referring to a certain other system that didn't have halflings in the player's guide.
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My suggestions for overhaul:
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Rogues are fragile compared to warrior classes - they should be.
Rogues generally don't hit as hard as warrior classes - they shouldn't.
Rogues SA for the same or less than a warrior class - they should do more, because it happens less often, and is harder to pull off.
Rogues have fewer combat options than most warrior classes - they should, but the Rogue should by default have more options than SA. My suggestions for overhaul:
Increase SA to +1d6 more at levels 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 (so they get +2d6 on the levels where they lose out on BAB). This will also improve the effectiveness of some of the SA traits.
The Rogues should get a combat style, and get bonus feats for it (a la Ranger or Monk): Dirty Tricks, Steal, Feint, etc. are the kinds of moves that rogues use. When using their combat style against a flanked or dex-denied foe, they add +1 per SA die to their CMB on the maneuver. This lets them, for example, use a dirty trick on a dragon.
I'm sure it's been mentioned above, but giving the rogue full BAB while flanking or attacking a flat-footed or denied-dex enemy would contribute a lot to helping out rogues. I'd say also that they should benefit from full BAB while using the dirty trick or steal, or disarm manoeuvres. This, plus some bonus feats would justify reducing their sneak attack damage, and make them the tricky class vs the high-damage-but-only-when-my-ducks-are-in-a-row class.
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I'm sure it's been mentioned above, but giving the rogue full BAB while flanking or attacking a flat-footed or denied-dex enemy would contribute a lot to helping out rogues. I'd say also that they should benefit from full BAB while using the dirty trick or steal, or disarm manoeuvres. This, plus some bonus feats would justify reducing their sneak attack damage, and make them the tricky class vs the high-damage-but-only-when-my-ducks-are-in-a-row class.
I was actually proposing an increase of SA damage, by around +50%. Fighters and Barbarians and Rangers and Paladins (oh my!) can deliver more pain than a Rogue, all the time. They even outdamage SA when built correctly, and even then, when a Rogue uses TWF for comparable damage, it means he's standing still and not hidden, and thus vulnerable. Boosting SA makes the risk more worthwhile, and also puts mechanics to a statement: "I'm no warrior, but you don't want to turn your back on me."
Since PF (or any d20 variant) is combat-heavy, what the Rogue needs is a combat boost that's in line with their role.
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Oh, so 2d6 at level 1, and 5d6 at level 5? Personally I'd rather keep sneak attack the way it is now and have a higher chance of hitting.
Yes to the +2d6@1, 5, 9, 13, 17, and +1d6@3, 7, 11, 15, 19.
Even though I disagree with the BAB idea, and would rather simply give a stealthing Rogue the +2 to hit from being effectively invisible to the victim, I completely understand your point, and even reinforce it by pointing out that SA is described in the book as precision-based damage. Precision is a form of accuracy, which translates well to "attack bonus".
The reason I disagree is simply because a Rogue is not a warrior, and I believe a Rogue shouldn't ever function as one, when the +2 Flank bonus, or the lowered AC from FF, should be sufficient to hit.
Also, full BAB makes TWF more viable (b/c that -2 is less of an issue), and I despise the idea of making TWF an implied "must have" for Rogues. It squashes the flexibility of concept by making non-TWF rogues an inferior choice.
Implied "must-haves" destroy the viability of variety.
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I think they should get their intelligence bonus to hit when using sneak attack. They should also get intelligence to AC, all the time. This would help them a lot. I also think they should get to pick one additional good save at character creation.
Another option is that sneak attack should always work.
The Rogues should get a combat style, and get bonus feats for it (a la Ranger or Monk): Dirty Tricks, Steal, Feint, etc. are the kinds of moves that rogues use. When using their combat style against a flanked or dex-denied foe, they add +1 per SA die to their CMB on the maneuver. This lets them, for example, use a dirty trick on a dragon.
This actually sounds awesome. Rogues are not weapon-oriented, but strategy oriented. Giving them a skill-using strategy (or even CMB-using with say the option of using level instead of BAB for that particular trick), and giving it as a by default choice would make an interesting improvement of the rogue in-combat usefulness. For example, 4 Winds introduced «Throat Threat» in Strategists & Tacticians: you can grapple a flat-footed opponent as long as you're unthreatened, and you put a blade on it's throat; if people try something weird of which you are aware (I'm simplifying), you can have a single attack as an immediate action with auto-hit and auto-critical (+ sneak of course since the dude is still flat-footed), and it's Fortitude save against damage dealt or be stunned for 1 round (so possibly coup-de-graced?). Now that would make a lot of sense if the rogue went around the whole battle to get the vulnerable player (say wizard) as a hostage in case things turn bad. You could even take the baby dragon to convinced her parent to be a good lizard. :)
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Well, if you turn someone into a statue or a box turtle, you've effectively done "all" of their hit points worth of damage even if you've technically dealt 0 damage.
It doesnt have to be killing the enemy, but you know, contributing in combat.
Fighters kill stuff.
Clerics heal your allies, and make your allies do more damage, and they kill stuff.
Druids Kill stuff, and summon animals to keep the enemy occupied and wear them down a bit.
Wizards disable enemies, limit enemies ability to harm you (giving you free rounds to beat on their friends unharmed), keep them occupied and wear them down like a druid, or remove them from the fight in any number of ways that dont use damage.
Rogues... Kill stuff, but not very well, and only in specific circumstances. They suck at disarming and disabling opponents, suck at using the steal maneuver (ironically) etc. What's left? Try to flank and sneak attack. Whoop dee do. Oh. I suppose the rogue contributes in one other way: One more layer between the front lines and the squishies at the back.
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MAYBE the fact that the only type of encounter in which every class participates is combat is the problem. The majority of the party doesn't want to have the kinds of adventures in which the rogue shines, so he never does.
Most classes dont have the ability to get good enough at stealth for it to be worth the effort, so they dont bother.
I like infiltration. It makes for good plot. But youre right. Sneaking past the guards doesnt work so well when only 1/5 players can do it.
In 3.5, I'd have everyone jump into my big bag of holding and let them out on the other side, but Pathfinder took that away.
1) Get the Strength Damage Rogue Talent
2) Get the Prereqs for Shadowdancer
3) Become a Shadowdancer
4) Get a Shadow
5) /hug your flanking buddy (ie the Shadow)
6) Enjoy killing things due to Str Damage
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1) Get the Strength Damage Rogue Talent
2) Get the Prereqs for Shadowdancer
3) Become a Shadowdancer
4) Get a Shadow
5) /hug your flanking buddy (ie the Shadow)
6) Enjoy killing things due to Str Damage
Okay so level 14 or so? That Strength damage talent is an advanced talent. I don't think it's very fair, or nice, to make someone suck for 13 levels.
Seems too complicated.
Perhaps something where how well you hit the enemy would work. Maybe that's what you were going for atarlost, but my brain is fried.
Anyways, you'd keep track of how many SA dice you have. So, 1 at level 1, 2 at level 3, etc.
At level one if you beat the AC by one point or more, you add 1d6 damage dice.
At level 3, if you beat the AC by 2 points or more, you add 2d6. If you only beat it by 1, you get 1d6.
Etc, etc. You add as many dice as you beat the AC by, up to a limit of your sneak attack dice.
Doesn't require flanking or flat-footedness (although flat-footedness would always add all your dice, just 'cuz.)
Nevermind. This requires the GM to let the players know what the AC is.
I think that would be okay, but there is a problem with it: it's very hard for a rogue to beat something's AC, this would also make a lot of feats less useful.
...Yea. So getting rid of sneak attack. The question is, do I go with a full BAB and some new offensive abilities, or a 3/4 BAB and even more offensive abilities?
...Yea. So getting rid of sneak attack. The question is, do I go with a full BAB and some new offensive abilities, or a 3/4 BAB and even more offensive abilities?
I wouldn't get rid of SA, but I would tone SA down a bit, while giving them other things. Like maybe half the SA progression. Give them DEX to damage and a scaling, flat bonus to damage with Finesse-able weapons as class features. I'd also throw in something more than Tumble that lets them disengage quickly if they look like they're about to be overwhelmed.
Don't know about the full BAB, though, or specific numbers for the damage bonus, as I don't feel like doing the math right now, but that's where I'd start from. The goal would be to have them do comparable damage to the more damaging fighting types without getting SA, and then pulling ahead a little when they do get SA.
Okay so level 14 or so? That Strength damage talent is an advanced talent. I don't think it's very fair, or nice, to make someone suck for 13 levels.1) Get the Strength Damage Rogue Talent
2) Get the Prereqs for Shadowdancer
3) Become a Shadowdancer
4) Get a Shadow
5) /hug your flanking buddy (ie the Shadow)
6) Enjoy killing things due to Str Damage
Not really.
I will say I had a tough time, but first, I went for Shadowdancer (so my steps are out of order :P ), which you can get at level 6. Hide in Plain Sight really helps since as a rogue you should be the skill monkey and put as many points into stealth as possible. This means you can do a fairly decent job of stealthing around and hitting enemies in blind spots (combine with acrobatics if necessary). Find a way to get yourself into flanks with your allies. Always a good thing to keep in mind.
Then get enough levels in Shadowdancer to get a Shadow (awesome companion). Level up in Rogue for your Advanced Rogue Talent, and you are golden.
Now another thing to realize that a lot of people are forgetting is that rogues are not made to be a damage class. They are skill monkeys, trap finders, and all around flank buddy. They can deal out some heavy damage if they can get the rolls and have sneak attack. There are also various builds like someone can be a str rogue if they want to be more of a brute. Either way, the rogue isn't meant to be hitting like a barbarian, fighter, cavalier, eidolon, etc. However, they are good for distractions and keeping people locked down.
One of my best experiences as a rogue/shadowdancer was the final encounter in Second Darkness, where I locked down the final boss while my companions dealt with the minions in the room. There was no way we could deal with that boss while the minions were up, so I took the liberty of being the fall guy and keeping the boss distracted. Funny thing though was the shadow was killing the boss :P Forced the boss to retreat and come back later haha!
I think Rogue is fine. If you're looking for a heavy hitting rogue, fourth edition is a good choice. Not saying don't play PF, btw. I'm just saying if Paizo wanted Rogues to be heavy hitters, I think they would have designed them that way. And besides that, I've had my fun with rogues! They are awesome!
EDIT: But if the GM and players agree to change a class, it's their game as well. Always remember to have fun!
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I like infiltration. It makes for good plot. But youre right. Sneaking past the guards doesnt work so well when only 1/5 players can do it.
Sure it does. Sneak past the guards, do your infiltration thing, and come back with a bag of holding full of fat lewt!
(Makes for a hell of an awesome side adventure between sessions :D)
Gotta correct you. You come back with a small bag full of a bit of loot. At least as far as the rest of the party is concerned.
Not really.Okay so level 14 or so? That Strength damage talent is an advanced talent. I don't think it's very fair, or nice, to make someone suck for 13 levels.1) Get the Strength Damage Rogue Talent
2) Get the Prereqs for Shadowdancer
3) Become a Shadowdancer
4) Get a Shadow
5) /hug your flanking buddy (ie the Shadow)
6) Enjoy killing things due to Str Damage
Yes, really. Crippling strike is an advanced rogue talent. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/rogue.html#_rogue
No matter which way you go about it, you need 14 levels to make that work, yes, you can have your shadow buddy at level 9, but that's still a long way to go while not being very good.
@Kthulhu:Why does the party even know about the bag?
I want to propose the following addition to the rogue. It has potential to screw multiclassing stuff up, so feel free to fix it.
New ability gained at level 1 or maybe 2.
LIGHT WEAPON AFFINITY
The rogue gets a +2 bonus to hit with daggers (and similar very small weapons, specify details later) and a +1 bonus to hit with short swords, rapiers etc. etc.
So the rogue will get an actual advantage over other classes in bab early on, which gradually diminishes as he increases in levels.
I haven't done any actual calculations on this yet, though, so it might turn out broken as hell...
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Change the "aid another" rules to fix this problem. Also, add in more skill tricks which can't be replicated with spells.
As an example, assume everyone needs to make a stealth check vs. DC 23. The fighter fails. The rogue can make a second stealth check vs. DC 23. If he succeeds, the fighter can reattempt his stealth check. If the rogue fails, then both rogue and fighter are treated as having failed.
This is pretty cool! you might be onto something.
This is pretty cool! you might be onto something.Change the "aid another" rules to fix this problem. Also, add in more skill tricks which can't be replicated with spells.
As an example, assume everyone needs to make a stealth check vs. DC 23. The fighter fails. The rogue can make a second stealth check vs. DC 23. If he succeeds, the fighter can reattempt his stealth check. If the rogue fails, then both rogue and fighter are treated as having failed.
Yeah, that is something that has always bugged me about stealth and ambushes.
Watch fantasy movies, and you have a group of inexperienced adveuturers traveling with a veteran. The veteran gives this guidance on survival, sneaking, etc.
With the survival skill, you can do this. There are rules for one person providing food and shelter for an entire group. There needs to be a rule where a sneaky character can boost the stealth abilities of their entire group by taking a penalty to their own stealth check.
So a rogue with a party of 3 can take a -6 to their stealth, but everytone gets to add half of the rogue's stealth modifier to their checks. This represents the rogue being distracted by making sure the others stay hiden.
I was thinking about how the rogue's spot has been larger replaced by the bard. It is not because of damage, but rather, the bard can do ok damage while bringing some really solid buffs and utility to the table.
I think the rogue needs some more debuffs that they can apply. This also fits into the whole dirty fighting theme that rogues are so big on.
- A talent that makes a successful sneak attack cause a temporary mobility reduction that lowers the targets dodge bonus by 1 + 1/5 levels for a round or two. This would boost the rogue damage output since it would make their iterative attacks more likely to hit, but it also boosts the rest of the groups damage as well.
- An ability that lets you blind a flat-footed opponent for a round or 2.
Ultimately, the mechanics of the Rogue class are not the problem; it's the game the class is in.
In Pathfinder, if you want to deal lots of damage in melee, you must stack Strength. To be a Rogue who does lots of damage in melee, you still need to stack strength, which is fine mechanically, but doesn't fit how people see Rogues.
The "patch" for this in 3rd edition and 3.5 was to use two-weapon fighting; however, Fighters and other big melee guys do more damage now, and while there are now almost no monsters that are immune (only elementals and oozes I believe), getting the damage to happen reliably is hard. It looks good on paper, but ultimately its a trap - Sneak Attack damage either can't be set up at all or can't be set up against a worthwhile target. When Sneak Attack does work, it runs into the problem of overkill - odds are, if you got a target, you only have one target, so when it drops your turn ends. It's similar to the problem that weapons like the scythe have - 20x4 looks like its the same as 18x2, but it tends to waste more damage.
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Finally, there's the concept of a "Rogue" itself. They are supposed to be dashing, charismatic, humorous guys who dart and dash around the battlefield, using their training, wit, and cleverness to beat their opponents. Yes, archtypes like "thug" and "assassin" should be supported, but the "assumed default" is supposed to be a, well, Rogue.
Believe it or not, this sort of character is already completely supported by the core book - take Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise, and Improved Feint; pair with Rogue talents that let you taunt opponents with bluff and go to town. It'll be a while before this kind of Rogue can pick up feats like improved Disarm, but that's the beauty of the archtype - Feint renders the opponent flat-footed, which reduces their Combat Maneuver Defense (just like it does AC), plus flat-footed characters can't make Attacks of Opportunity, so you don't...
The rogue does need some help...but what about a two-pronged approach, and also modifying some adventure settings? Or would we be touching on something that's too much of a sacred cow?
There's a reason that adventure, smash, treasure works as a basic formula, after all.
Regarding BAB: One of the designers had made a comment regarding the monk. One big reason the monk's BAB wasn't changed was because altering it would change the class from defensive to primarily offensive. This might apply to the rogue. If that's the case, then other/different abilities may be the way to go (that is, alterations that reward desired rogue traits, such as sneakiness).
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Its worth noting that class usefulness is largely based on playstyle.
I ran a city campaign last year, and the player who was playing the bard, kept talking the party out of every combat situation.
Several of the other players (the wizard, the barbarian, and the fighter) started complaining that they didn't get to do anything because the bard kept stealing the spotlight.
It was an eye-opener of one of the possibilities for running campaigns where the antagonists are almost universally humanoids.
Since he wasn't doing it via powers, merely via skill ranks and being CHA focused, a rogue could have done the same.
That is very far from the typical playstyle though, and combat usually matters a great deal more than it did in that campaign.
A few options I've thought about using are:
*Give the rogue a rogue talent every level. There are enough now to make it worthwhile for many different styles, and more cool tricks help restore rogues to the role of a skill specialist.
*Increase sneak attack damage to 1d8.
*Instead of limited Trap Sense, make it a luck bonus and apply it to saving throws, AC, Sense Motive, and Initiative. Call it Danger Sense now, as it's more of a "preternatural alertness" type ability. Other classes that get trap sense are unchanged.
*Instead of Trap Sense, give them maneuver training just like the Monk.
*change sneak attack so that you get +1 base damage per sneak attack die when you crit, on top of your normal damage. EX: if you strike with a short sword for 1d6 and have 3d6 sneak attack damagage, you deal 2d6+6 damage + 3d6 sneak attack damage (1d6+3, shortsword has a x2 modifier)
*instead of Trap Sense (noticing a theme here? It's their weakest feature) let them re-roll a d20 once per day per bonus trap sense normally grants. Maybe cap it at 5 rerolls a day at level 15 and let them force someone else to reroll at level 18? I don't know. But it would certainly help with any build to be able to re-roll, even if you're not a combat type.
*let them add their Int or Cha mod to base damage. Maybe cap it by level like the Duelist ability? Mining the Duelist prestige class for abilities to give the rogue isn't a bad idea, actually.
*increase the range you can deal ranged sneak attacks to 60'.
I'm not suggesting implementing ALL of these, but they're ideas I've been pondering, and I may experiment with some or all of them and post how that's gone.
Here's what I did:
note: numbers and power probably need tweaking
Sneak Attack (Ex)
If a rogue can catch an opponent when she is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can make precise strikes that target the opponent’s vulnerabilities. The rogue can place such attacks anytime her target would be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a weak spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot normally sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
A sneak attack gives the rogue a bonus to attack. The bonus to attack is +1 at 1st level, and it increases to +2 at 5th level and to +3 at 9th level. From 3rd level, a sneak attack also has a secondary effect which a rogue can inflict on her target. At 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th level a rogue learns one secondary effect which a rogue can inflict on her target, but the rogue can only inflict one such effect per sneak attack and must choose which effect to inflict when her sneak attack hits. A target must actually be damaged in order to suffer the effects of a secondary effect. If the sneak attack does 0 damage (for instance, due to damage reduction) no secondary effect takes place. A rogue can select effects from the following:
Bleeding Attack: A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 point of damage each round for every 2 levels the rogue has. Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.
Crippling Strike: A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent hit by one of her sneak attacks also takes 1 points of Strength or Dexterity damage. This penalty is cumulative on multiple sneak attacks. A rogue must be at least 7th level before she can take this secondary effect.
Deft Strike: A rogue with this ability deals precision damage equal to her Dexterity bonus on a successful sneak attack.
Disarming Strike: A rogue may immediately make a disarm attempt versus the target of the sneak attack as a free action. This attempt does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Dispelling Attack: Opponents that are hit by the rogue must make an immediate concentration check of DC 15 + double spell level or lose the lowest-level spell effect active.
Disruptive Attack: Opponents that are hit by the rogue must make a concentration check whenever they try to cast a spell on their next turn. The DC is 15 + double spell level, and if the concentration check fails the caster loses the spell. This concentration check is in addition to any other concentration checks, such as for casting defensively.
Easy Target: A target hit by the rogue’s sneak attack has a -1 penalty on armour class for 1 round. This penalty is cumulative on multiple sneak attacks.
Exploit Weakness: A rogue with this ability deals precision damage equal to her Intelligence bonus on a successful sneak attack.
Hamstring: A target hit by the rogue’s sneak attack has his speed lower to half his normal speed for 1 round. A target’s speed cannot be lowered beyond half his normal speed.
Hindering Attack: A target hit by the rogue’s sneak attack has a -1 penalty on attack rolls for 1 round. This penalty is cumulative on multiple sneak attacks.
Lower Defences: A target hit by the rogue’s sneak attack has a -1 penalty on saving throws for 1 round. This penalty is cumulative on multiple sneak attacks.
Relocate: A rogue may immediately make a CMB check against the target of the sneak attack as a free action. If she succeeds, she may move the target 5 feet, or an additional 5 feet for every 5 points by which she exceeds the target’s CMD. This attempt does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Slow Reactions: Opponents hit by the rogue's sneak attack can't make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Tripping Attack: A rogue may immediately make a trip attempt versus the target of the sneak attack as a free action. This attempt does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Canny Defence (Ex)
A rogue does not merely try to dodge a blow, a rogue also tries to understand and predict the opponents’ movements in order to form an active defence against them. A rogue adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) to her Dexterity modifier to determine her total effective Dexterity modifier for Armour Class. This total bonus to Armour Class is still limited by the armour the rogue is wearing, just like a normal Dexterity bonus to Armour Class would be.
A rogue does not benefit from Canny Defence when wearing medium or heavy armour or carrying a medium or heavy load.
This ability does not stack with a similar ability using another ability score.
Dodge (Ex)
At 2nd level, a rogue learns to dodge blows as part of her combat style. When wearing light or no armour, she gains 1 point of dodge bonus to AC for every 2 rogue levels she has. If another class grants this ability, you can add the number of their class levels together to determine your dodge bonus to AC.
Critical Strike (Ex)
At 5th level a rogue targets a weak spot as part of an exceptional hit. When a rogue rolls a critical threat, add her sneak attack bonus to the confirmation roll. If the attack is a successful critical hit, the attack is a successful sneak attack and the rogue can apply one of her secondary effects. If the critical hit already counted as a sneak attack, the rogue can apply two different secondary effects.
Scoundrel’s Luck (Ex)
At 10th level a rogue learns to bend fate to her favour. She gains a pool of Luck Points with which she can ‘cheat the system’. The rogue gains an amount of Luck Points equal to 2 + the rogue’s Charisma modifier. The points are refreshed on a full rest. With the Luck Points a rogue can do the following:
Reroll a skill check: A rogue can use 1 Luck Point to reroll any skill check she has made, but she must take the reroll. A rogue can use this ability immediately after learning the result of the original roll.
Make a full attack as a standard action: A rogue can use 2 Luck Points to make a full attack as a standard action.
Attempt to dodge a blow: A rogue can use 1 Luck Point to force an attacker to reroll one attack and take the result of the reroll. A rogue can use this ability after the result (hit or miss) of the original attack is known.
Emulate a class feature: A rogue can spend 3 Luck Points to emulate a class ability of another class. She only gains the benefit of any ability for one action. A rogue cannot use this ability to cast spells. A rogue could for example use this ability to Lay on Hands, gain Weapon Training for one round, go into Rage for one round or make a Bardic Performance for one round.
Here's what I did:
note: numbers and power probably need tweaking
** spoiler omitted **...
They can hit now, but not for any significant amount of damage, also: deft strike is the single best ability there, everyone's going to take it. The crippling strike is basically Pressure points only without the heal check. I think adding a trip attack to it is probably a bad idea, they take a -4 to AC, so basically 4 successful hits from easy target. I think also adding in intelligence bonus to damage will get a little excessive, especially considering how this will stack up with some of the other classes.
It might be time to drop the d6. Give the rogue an extra +2 to hit and to damage while sneak attacking (scaling every three levels?), and let it multiply on a crit. Also let her take critical feats with rogue talents, using her rogue level in place of BAB.
I'm working on an archetype for Rite Publishing that's along these lines. Not exactly like that, but you have the rough idea. So far playtesting is showing that this works pretty well. Although you should reduce the bonus to-hit to +1, IMO. We found +2 per increase was a bit too much to-hit.
They can hit now, but not for any significant amount of damage, also: deft strike is the single best ability there, everyone's going to take it... I think also adding in intelligence bonus to damage will get a little excessive, especially considering how this will stack up with some of the other classes.
Does not compute. They 'do not hit for significant amounts of damage' but 'deft strike + intelligence bonus gets a little excessive'? Do note they don't get free 1d6's any more , and it is still only on a sneak attack. They need a +7 total modifier from Dex or Int to emulate 2d6 sneak attack. You can't get both Dex and Int on an attack because only one of these secondary effects is allowed, unless you score a sneak attack critical hit. Anyway my rogue is not designed to do significant damage, but debuff instead, which gives it a unique role.
The crippling strike is basically Pressure points only without the heal check. I think adding a trip attack to it is probably a bad idea, they take a -4 to AC, so basically 4 successful hits from easy target.
They don't get an automatically successful trip, they need to make the CMB check, at their 3/4 BAB. A heal check for crippling strike is a good idea (it was originally a tweaked down advanced rogue talent).
To reiterate: abilities DO NOT STACK. You can gain multiple but MUST CHOOSE ONE each sneak attack. You get two on a successful sneak + crit from lvl 5 because of Critical Strike.
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How many times you as a rogue find yourself in a situation when you are stealthing and able to hit? Your suggestion mainly affects a rogue using ranged weapon and even then within 30' range and highly situational as well (need cover).
To be able to hit while stealthing you should be standing next to your target while at the same time hiding behind cover or get concealment of some sort. And on top of that after your first strike you're not stealthing anymore anyways.
We are using stealth rules which make sense. That goes a long way.
The ruling we often use is: You can use a Stealth check to leave your hiding spot and sneak up on someone. The stealth check vs. perception check represents your ability to use timing and skill to quietly and quickly move up to them before they notice. The exception is if the target is actively performing a perception check (via a Move action or Standard action) on something in the same general direction of the hiding spot.
Does not compute. They 'do not hit for significant amounts of damage' but 'deft strike + intelligence bonus gets a little excessive'? Do note they don't get free 1d6's any more , and it is still only on a sneak attack. They need a +7 total modifier from Dex or Int to emulate 2d6 sneak attack. You can't get both Dex and Int on an attack because only one of these secondary effects is allowed, unless you score a sneak attack critical hit. Anyway my rogue is not designed to do significant damage, but debuff instead, which gives it a unique role.
They don't get an automatically successful trip, they need to make the CMB check, at their 3/4 BAB. A heal check for crippling strike is a good idea (it was originally a tweaked down advanced rogue talent).
To reiterate: abilities DO NOT STACK. You can gain multiple but MUST CHOOSE ONE each sneak attack. You get two on a successful sneak + crit from lvl 5 because of Critical Strike.
It's the whole first 2 levels of not being useful thing. They have to wait until 3rd, then they get a +5 damage, it's only a bit much when you start multiclassing. For example, say I take this on the ninja, then take pistolero/mysterious stranger gunslinger, then I would be adding Dex, Int, and Cha(with a grit point). The average DPR leaps up like a spider bit it's taint. Especially with two-weapon fighting.
On it's own, it's harmless, combined with other things it's horrifying.
It's still only on a sneak attack which normally gave an average of +7 damage at that level so I don't see the problem.
How many times you as a rogue find yourself in a situation when you are stealthing and able to hit? Your suggestion mainly affects a rogue using ranged weapon and even then within 30' range and highly situational as well (need cover).
To be able to hit while stealthing you should be standing next to your target while at the same time hiding behind cover or get concealment of some sort. And on top of that after your first strike you're not stealthing anymore anyways.
We are using stealth rules which make sense. That goes a long way.
The ruling we often use is: You can use a Stealth check to leave your hiding spot and sneak up on someone. The stealth check vs. perception check represents your ability to use timing and skill to quietly and quickly move up to them before they notice. The exception is if the target is actively performing a perception check (via a Move action or Standard action) on something in the same general direction of the hiding spot.
That is in line with the stealth rules that are currently in playtest. The new stealth rules actually help the rogue and any other characters that rely on stealth to sneak attack out a bit.
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Does not compute. They 'do not hit for significant amounts of damage' but 'deft strike + intelligence bonus gets a little excessive'? Do note they don't get free 1d6's any more , and it is still only on a sneak attack. They need a +7 total modifier from Dex or Int to emulate 2d6 sneak attack. You can't get both Dex and Int on an attack because only one of these secondary effects is allowed, unless you score a sneak attack critical hit. Anyway my rogue is not designed to do significant damage, but debuff instead, which gives it a unique role.
They don't get an automatically successful trip, they need to make the CMB check, at their 3/4 BAB. A heal check for crippling strike is a good idea (it was originally a tweaked down advanced rogue talent).
To reiterate: abilities DO NOT STACK. You can gain multiple but MUST CHOOSE ONE each sneak attack. You get two on a successful sneak + crit from lvl 5 because of Critical Strike.
It's the whole first 2 levels of not being useful thing. They have to wait until 3rd, then they get a +5 damage, it's only a bit much when you start multiclassing. For example, say I take this on the ninja, then take pistolero/mysterious stranger gunslinger, then I would be adding Dex, Int, and Cha(with a grit point). The average DPR leaps up like a spider bit it's taint. Especially with two-weapon fighting.
On it's own, it's harmless, combined with other things it's horrifying.
First of all, I don't think mysterious stranger and pistolero are meant to be taken together (the fact that pistol training doesn't replace gun training is likely a bug). That being said, how are you sneak attack full attacking with pistols?
First of all, I don't think mysterious stranger and pistolero are meant to be taken together (the fact that pistol training doesn't replace gun training is likely a bug). That being said, how are you sneak attack full attacking with pistols?It's the whole first 2 levels of not being useful thing. They have to wait until 3rd, then they get a +5 damage, it's only a bit much when you start multiclassing. For example, say I take this on the ninja, then take pistolero/mysterious stranger gunslinger, then I would be adding Dex, Int, and Cha(with a grit point). The average DPR leaps up like a spider bit it's taint. Especially with two-weapon fighting.
On it's own, it's harmless, combined with other things it's horrifying.
+1 distance revolvers, sniper goggles, or use the sniping rules, with a ridiculous + to stealth. Let's say, you take the 2 levels of inquisitor, 5 levels of gunslinger, 3 levels of ninja, at 10th level. Using longshot you have a maximum touch range of 300 feet, 20+10X2 distanceX5range increments. That's a -30 to their perception roll, but you are taking a -20 to your roll to stay stealthed while doing this, so they have a -10.
The other option is to use snap shot, at level 8, as a gunslinger5/ninja3 or rogue3, you can have point blank shot, rapid shot, snap shot, TWF, and ITW. That's 6 shots/round, in melee, threatening your target, say you have an 18 dex, that's +12 hit, +13 in 30 feet -4 from TWF/Rapid shot, so +9/+9/+4 then +9/+9/+4 for 1d8+5 baseline, not including Int or Cha. Assuming a 16 int and 20 cha, that's 6 shots at +4 minimum against touch, for 1d8+13. Most opponents will have a touch of 10-14, meaning you need at least a 6, at most a 10 to hit.
Yes, it takes a bit of doing, but the DPR on this is like 153 against a touch AC of 14.
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First of all, I don't think mysterious stranger and pistolero are meant to be taken together (the fact that pistol training doesn't replace gun training is likely a bug). That being said, how are you sneak attack full attacking with pistols?It's the whole first 2 levels of not being useful thing. They have to wait until 3rd, then they get a +5 damage, it's only a bit much when you start multiclassing. For example, say I take this on the ninja, then take pistolero/mysterious stranger gunslinger, then I would be adding Dex, Int, and Cha(with a grit point). The average DPR leaps up like a spider bit it's taint. Especially with two-weapon fighting.
On it's own, it's harmless, combined with other things it's horrifying.
+1 distance revolvers, sniper goggles, or use the sniping rules, with a ridiculous + to stealth. Let's say, you take the 2 levels of inquisitor, 5 levels of gunslinger, 3 levels of ninja, at 10th level. Using longshot you have a maximum touch range of 300 feet, 20+10X2 distanceX5range increments. That's a -30 to their perception roll, but you are taking a -20 to your roll to stay stealthed while doing this, so they have a -10.
The other option is to use snap shot, at level 7, as a gunslinger4/ninja3 or rogue3, you can have point blank shot, rapid shot, snap shot, TWF, and ITW. That's 6 shots/round, in melee, threatening your target, say you have an 18 dex, that's +11 hit, +12 in 30 feet -4 from TWF/Rapid shot, so +8/+8/+3 then +8/8/+3 for 1d8+5 baseline, not including Int or Cha. Assuming a 16 int and 20 cha, that's 6 shots at +3 minimum against touch, for 1d8+13. Most opponents will have a touch of 10-14, meaning you need at least a 7, at most an 11 to hit.
How do you avoid misfires? What do you do until level 10? How do you respond to the idea that Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero aren't meant to stack, based on the fact that 'Pistol Training' was probably meant to replace 'Gun Training'?
How much grit are you using to hit Touch AC at 300 feet? A pistol has a range increment of 20 feet, and with distance and longshot you can hit touch AC at 80 unless you spend one grit per shot per increment. How are you getting that deed at level 5 with the Pistolero archetype, who (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't get deadeye until level 7?
Also, why are we talking about things the Gunslinger can/can't do when this discussion is about improving the rogue?