I am looking into Pathfinder, thinking to compare with 4E, as I run games where some people are a bit fed up with the lack of flexibility in 4E.
My biggest concern is the Warlord from 4E - my fav class. The biggest issue is granting attacks - can anyone see any problems with a PF class granting an attack to an ally with a standard action?
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Depends on what they are allowed to do with it. If it's just 'I spend my standard action to let my ally make a single attack' I don't see a problem with it.
Not sure how close it is to what you want, but Tome of Secrets has a Warlord class. Here is some discussion on it.
I've had a look at the SRD - nowhere does it suggest the ability to grant an attack as a standard action. I guess I'll try and houserule this ability, or make it a feat.
Thanks for the rapid responses!
(Shameless ad)
You could look on my homebrew Captain and see if it fits your expectations of leader class or just salvage elements you find useful of it while doing your own version of Warlord.
I have even less shame than Drejk! This product of mine has a cavalier (Inspiring Commander) archetype that's like the Warlord. It's also quite like the Battle Herald PrC. This product also has the Shogun archetype for samurai, which does give an extra attack to allies (as a full-round, and eventually a standard) to regain points of Resolve, and can keep the troops alive! The whole product was inspired by the playstyle of the Warlord from 4e, the Battle Herald PrC, the Warlord from ToS, and the War master from SGG.
This is the War Master by SGG, and it's a solid take on the concept.
The ToS version is honestly a bit weak.
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The Pathfinder Chronicler gains the ability to grant allies actions, both move and standard, as a swift action (remember the class stacks with bardic music, which means this works) by expending 1 use of Bardic Music. Granted, you need to be 14th level to do this, but it's a REALLY powerful ability. In addition, Pathfinder Chronicler specifically states that it stacks with classes that even give a similar ability to Bardic Music, which means you can qualify for the class as a Bard, Cleric, or Monk (with the right archetypes). If you wanted to make it a houserule, I'd look at the Paladin and replace Smite Evil with Bardic Music (Maybe just Inspire Courage & one other song). Totally serious. I'd just make it a flat switch. This way, you get to keep some of the healing flavor of the Warlord, and get to qualify for Pathfinder Chronicler as an armor-wearing, combat heavy class.
This seems like a Cavalier archetype variant to me. Take the existing ability which grants a teamwork feat and replace [teamwork feat] with [one attack, as an immediate action]. The scaling that the class feature already has works pretty well, and it would save you a lot of effort.
...And I was ninja'd by Cheapy
I've had a look at the SRD - nowhere does it suggest the ability to grant an attack as a standard action. I guess I'll try and houserule this ability, or make it a feat.
Thanks for the rapid responses!
There is precedent set for granting attack actions. A Pathfinder Chronicler can do it around character level 15.
The issue I have with granting that ability earlier in a 3/4ths BAB class is that it's often more advantageous to let the full BAB guy smack someone than you doing it.
I've had a look at the SRD - nowhere does it suggest the ability to grant an attack as a standard action. I guess I'll try and houserule this ability, or make it a feat.
Thanks for the rapid responses!
There is precedent set for granting attack actions. A Pathfinder Chronicler can do it around character level 15.
The issue I have with granting that ability earlier in a 3/4ths BAB class is that it's often more advantageous to let the full BAB guy smack someone than you doing it.
I can see your point - in the 4E, the Warlord has roughly the same chance to hit with his own attack as any attack he grants.
What about granting it at his own attack bonus?
I've had a look at the SRD - nowhere does it suggest the ability to grant an attack as a standard action. I guess I'll try and houserule this ability, or make it a feat.
Thanks for the rapid responses!
There is precedent set for granting attack actions. A Pathfinder Chronicler can do it around character level 15.
The issue I have with granting that ability earlier in a 3/4ths BAB class is that it's often more advantageous to let the full BAB guy smack someone than you doing it.
I can see your point - in the 4E, the Warlord has roughly the same chance to hit with his own attack as any attack he grants.
What about granting it at his own attack bonus?
And how would this tie into the actual game world? Remember one of the key differences between pathfinder and 4E is that the rules are strongly tied to what they represent. Abilities are meant to work within a system of rules and not be a relatively independant element within them.
So HOW would a warlord grant an attack at his own attack bonus to an ally? I dont see a coherent way for that to happen do you? Does he call out to his ally 'attack that orc over there, but only do it as well as I would, and not as well as you can!'?
And how would this tie into the actual game world? Remember one of the key differences between pathfinder and 4E is that the rules are strongly tied to what they represent. Abilities are meant to work within a system of rules and not be a relatively independant element within them.
So HOW would a warlord grant an attack at his own attack bonus to an ally? I dont see a coherent way for that to happen do you? Does he call out to his ally 'attack that orc over there, but only do it as well as I would, and not as well as you can!'?
Very well put. This is going to be the crux of the problem with the conversion. I would not allow the class in the game that I run until this was answered in such a way as to maintain verisimilitude. Simply saying "go attack that guy" is not sufficient to grant an extra attack, and yet the Warlord class from 4E is not a magic-based class as far as I can remember. Although, admittedly it has been a while since I opened my 4E books.
Very well put. This is going to be the crux of the problem with the conversion. I would not allow the class in the game that I run until this was answered in such a way as to maintain verisimilitude. Simply saying "go attack that guy" is not sufficient to grant an extra attack, and yet the Warlord class from 4E is not a magic-based class as far as I can remember. Although, admittedly it has been a while since I opened my 4E books.And how would this tie into the actual game world? Remember one of the key differences between pathfinder and 4E is that the rules are strongly tied to what they represent. Abilities are meant to work within a system of rules and not be a relatively independant element within them.
So HOW would a warlord grant an attack at his own attack bonus to an ally? I dont see a coherent way for that to happen do you? Does he call out to his ally 'attack that orc over there, but only do it as well as I would, and not as well as you can!'?
Kolok's question is regarding the use of the action-giver's attack bonus for the attack.
If the archetype is all about being a commander, then giving an attack by saying "go hit that guy" does make sense.
Very well put. This is going to be the crux of the problem with the conversion. I would not allow the class in the game that I run until this was answered in such a way as to maintain verisimilitude. Simply saying "go attack that guy" is not sufficient to grant an extra attack, and yet the Warlord class from 4E is not a magic-based class as far as I can remember. Although, admittedly it has been a while since I opened my 4E books.And how would this tie into the actual game world? Remember one of the key differences between pathfinder and 4E is that the rules are strongly tied to what they represent. Abilities are meant to work within a system of rules and not be a relatively independant element within them.
So HOW would a warlord grant an attack at his own attack bonus to an ally? I dont see a coherent way for that to happen do you? Does he call out to his ally 'attack that orc over there, but only do it as well as I would, and not as well as you can!'?
Kolok's question is regarding the use of the action-giver's attack bonus for the attack.
If the archetype is all about being a commander, then giving an attack by saying "go hit that guy" does make sense.
Correct, I dont have a problem with granting actions, so long as there is some kind of explanation (such as a supernatural or extraordinary aura of comand that inspires your allies to perform beyond their normal abilities. So if the warlord had an ability called 'Forced March', that granted allies an additional move action, for instance I'd be fine with that. I dont have a problem with a warlord finding a way to grant actions through it's abilities (be they supernatural or extraordinary), but I do have a problem with purely gamist ideas like granting an attack but not at the allie's attack bonus in order to maintain balance.
Granting an attack action is better than granting a standard action.
Then it can't be used to cast spells, which is a huge issue.
If this is a full BAB class, then a standard action to give an attack action isn't super bad. Why? Because you could hit just as often, all things being equal. You're trading your attack, for theirs.
I still wouldn't grant this until about level 7 though.
I did not intend to suggest that granting another player an action is not possible. I was saying that doing so requires more explanation than just "'cause I said so". The example given by Rory is a magical effect. If the commander/warlord has an ability like this, or a samurai's banner or something else, then I would be fine with it. It is the explanation of how the player is able to grant the attack that interests me.
Rory, SGG's War Master does something very similar to that.
Hamilcaro, email me at hyrum@otherworlds.cx and I'll send you a free copy of the war master for you to check out and see if it fits your idea for the warlord. :)
Hyrum.
Hamilcaro, email me at hyrum@otherworlds.cx and I'll send you a free copy of the war master for you to check out and see if it fits your idea for the warlord. :)
Hyrum.
Awesome, thanks heaps!
I like the idea of the Warlord being able to gift his attacks to other party members at a fairly low level, as that was my take on the main thing that the Warlord from 4E has that other classes don't have so fundamentally. I am not wanting it to be an unbalancing ability, but something that is not significantly more powerful than the Warlord's own melee attack. I'm not thinking too mechanically, but I found it fun to be playing a character who directed as well as fought him/herself.
The options seem to be building it off a full BAB class, or having having a lower attack bonus than the full BAB classes would use. To justify the lower attack bonus:
"But, the fighter is a highly skilled warrior acting at near the max of his potential. The warlord isn't trained as a grunt, he's trained as an officer. So, the warlord's knowledge of what an effective opening is is somewhat limited. Consequently, the quality of the opening he can offer the fighter is somewhat limited.
would be an excellent explanation in terms of flavour.
The issue I have with a low-level character that doesn't have full BAB granting extra attack actions is that it becomes better for them to grant the action than to attack themselves. That doesn't sit well with me.
If it's a full BAB class that trades their standard action for someone else's attack...that's not so terrible.
I take it you banned Spell Compendium's Snake Swiftness or whatever it was then?
Why don't you have problems with non-Full BAB classes granting super to-hit and damage bonuses?
Not sure what the spell is (but I can infer), but since it's from SC, probably :)
I don't have a problem with bonuses to hit / damage because they aren't granting extra attacks.
It's when a lower BAB class's best action is almost always to grant that attack that I'm iffy about. And after your main spells are already in play, it'd almost always be better to grant an extra attack to the guy who can do the most damage, rather than cast a less effective spell, or whatever.
It's like the old adage of balancing. If something is taken and used by almost everyone, you should look at that thing real hard.
The issue I have with a low-level character that doesn't have full BAB granting extra attack actions is that it becomes better for them to grant the action than to attack themselves. That doesn't sit well with me.Why?
It is often far better for a wizard to cast haste (granting extra attacks to all), a bard to Inspire Courage (extra bonuses to all), etc. than to attack themselves.
There are a plethora of examples where characters all the time assist other party members rather than attacking a foe directly themselves.
See my answer above.
Druid and wizard spell that grants one ally an extra immediate attack.
Not sure what the spell is (but I can infer), but since it's from SC, probably :)
That's better than unlimited trading of attacks, since it's using up a spell slot.
I'm curious to learn why people think an unlimited ability (since we are basing it off the Warlord's at-will power) for less than full BAB characters is a good idea.
I don't have a problem with bonuses to hit / damage because they aren't granting extra attacks.
It's when a lower BAB class's best action is almost always to grant that attack that I'm iffy about. And after your main spells are already in play, it'd almost always be better to grant an extra attack to the guy who can do the most damage, rather than cast a less effective spell, or whatever.
Haste grants extra attacks. They aren't immediate attacks, but they are at the recipient's full BAB and carry over from round to round. And they apply to multiple people.
A core bard's best action is almost always to Inspire Courage the party (and themselves ) before they attack a foe themselves.
It's like the old adage of balancing. If something is taken and used by almost everyone, you should look at that thing real hard.You can't really use this adage on a core class feature.
- Any full caster casting spells would not be balanced via that adage.
- A fighter that refused to attack with a weapon would be rather impotent.
- A warlord that didn't Inspire attacks from others wouldn't be a... warlord?
I never said that you had to get rid of the ability if everyone always used it. Just had to look harder at it and really think about it's balance.
I'm still not convinced at what level this would be appropriate for a full BAB class vs what level it'd be good for a non-full BAB. I'm not saying granting extra attacks is a bad thing. Not at all.
I wrote an entire book on archetypes that was about this very concept of a warlord. Someone who gets some entities to work together to be more efficient. One of them grants an extra attack from level one! It's a full BAB class though (and the purpose isn't so much the extra attack as what they get from granting it).
Shrug.
I'm curious to learn why people think an unlimited ability (since we are basing it off the Warlord's at-will power) for less than full BAB characters is a good idea.I would not propose it to be unlimited, but that's just "haggling price".
Let's assume it is unlimited.
At 1st level, if that's all the warlord could do, then granting an extra attack would be little different than making a clone of another (full BAB) character. More flexible perhaps, but close to balanced.
At 6th level, unless the warlord can do more, then granting an extra attack with a standard action would be less then making a clone of another (full BAB) character due to losing out on full round attack options.
At 11th level, it gets even worse.
So, there is a definite point to balance around on the ability.
Why is making this class a good idea?
Meh, that is opinion land. The OP wants to play this character archetype in a balanced fashion. People (like me) also like to play healers, even though many people say "you won't often heal in combat". All people just don't play the game the same. And that's okay.
Precisely! It's a good fit for a full BAB class, since they'll generally do as good as another full BAB class.
My only issue is giving it to a non-full BAB class, and at what level is reasonable for that.
Precisely! It's a good fit for a full BAB class, since they'll generally do as good as another full BAB class.
My only issue is giving it to a non-full BAB class, and at what level is reasonable for that.
You lost me...
All other things being equal, a full BAB class is more powerful than a non full BAB class.
Hence, a non-full BAB class should get it at an earlier level, or a more powerful version, to compensate.
Yes?
Nope!
My issue is that a non-full BAB class getting this ability would make it more useful at low levels to use this ability rather than whacking people yourself. As in, it would be strictly more optimal for your bard / cleric / wizard / whatever non-full BAB class to grant that raging barbarian an attack, rather than taking an attack yourself.
This would overshadow quite a few of your abilities as well as your attacks. I know if I was a low level Bard and we had one other martial type, it wouldn't be clear cut on whether my first action should be to use IC or grant the barbarian an attack.
Precisely! It's a good fit for a full BAB class, since they'll generally do as good as another full BAB class.
My only issue is giving it to a non-full BAB class, and at what level is reasonable for that.
You lost me...
All other things being equal, a full BAB class is more powerful than a non full BAB class.
Hence, a non-full BAB class should get it at an earlier level, or a more powerful version, to compensate.
Yes?
Nope!
My issue is that a non-full BAB class getting this ability would make it more useful at low levels to use this ability rather than whacking people yourself. As in, it would be strictly more optimal for your bard / cleric / wizard / whatever non-full BAB class to grant that raging barbarian an attack, rather than taking an attack yourself.
This would overshadow quite a few of your abilities as well as your attacks. I know if I was a low level Bard and we had one other martial type, it wouldn't be clear cut on whether my first action should be to use IC or grant the barbarian an attack.
Shouldn't that be the point, though? The Warlord is a support class. Why would it be such a big deal to have one of the main ways of supporting the party at low levels be to allow the other members to get extra attacks? Why must the Warlord be the one that has to do the attacking themselves?
Maybe make it an archetype and have the ability replace something else, but if it's an option, I really think it should be pretty much the key feature of the build at low levels. Some people really like playing Lazylords and I don't see why it shouldn't be an option available.
Are they meant to be front line combatants? Then full BAB.
3/4ths? Well, here's an example from the product I mentioned above for a summoner:
At 6th level, the celestial
commander can, as a standard action, issue a bolstering
command to his allies. The bolstering command affects
one ally plus one additional ally for every three
summoner levels you possess. All allies must be within
30 feet of you. Affected allies gain a +2 insight bonus on
attack rolls, AC, and combat maneuver defense for one
round. In addition, they gain a number of temporary hit
points equal to your Charisma modifier. These
temporary hit points last for one minute or until used
up. Temporary hit points gained from this ability do not
stack with each other, but rather overlap. At 10th level
and every 4 levels thereafter, the range of this ability
increases by 15 feet. This is a language-dependent,
mind-affecting effect. This ability replaces maker's call
and transposition.
It's much the same idea as giving an extra attack, writ large. Use up your standard action to help out your allies for one round. Since nothing but the temp HP lasts for longer than a round, the bonus can be (in fact, has to be!) decent, and "+2 is enough". This is similar to the Leadership subdomain's ability, which is unlimited usage as well, but a standard action.
Other ideas include taking the ranged aid-another ability from Cloistered Cleric, and applying it to attacks / AC.
Shrug, I spent a long time thinking of ways to help your teammates for the product. This discussion has convinced me that a full BAB giving an attack as a standard action is fair from level 1.
I still don't think anyone should be giving standard actions out until level 10 at the earliest. A wizard getting a full move and a spell is a bit much for me to swallow.
I do think SGG's warmaster will be what OP (Harmicalo?) wants. I'm not sure if they can grant attacks, but the rest of it is solid.
bah, confused myself. Will respond later scylis.
Here's a homebrew conversion and re-imagining of the old 3.0 Marshal.
Marshal
BAB: +3/4
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim.
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier.
Marshals are proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor, and Shields (but not tower shields).
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Minor Auras, Project 1 Minor Aura, Skill Focus
2. Major Aura, Major Aura +1, Project 1 Major Aura, Teamwork
3. Grant Extra Action 1/day (Standard Action to activate)
4. Great Ally +3
5. Major Aura +2
6. Grant Extra Action 2/day, Teamwork
7. Project 2 Minor Auras
8. Great Ally +4, Improved Aid Another (move action)
9. Grant Extra Action 3/day (Move Action to activate)
10. Major Aura +3, Teamwork
11. Project 2 Major Auras
12. Grant Extra Action 4/day, Great Ally +5
13. Project 3 Minor Auras
14. Teamwork, Widen Aura
15. Grant Extra Action 5/day (Swift Action to activate), Major Aura +4
16. Great Ally + 6, Greater Aid Another (swift action)
17. Free Auras
18. Grant Extra Action 6/day, Teamwork
19. Project 4 Minor Auras
20. Project 3 Major Auras, Major Aura +5, Great Ally +7, Move Self
Minor Auras (Ex). At 1st level, the Marshal knows 2 minor auras. He learns 1 additional minor aura each class level. Each aura affects all allies within 60 feet. Minor Auras provide a bonus equal to the Marshal's Charisma bonus (minimum +1). Each aura provides a bonus to something different.
Projecting an aura is a swift action, and the aura persists until the Marshal takes another swift action to change the aura or a free action to cease projecting the aura.
At 7th level, the Marshal can project 2 Minor Auras simultaneously.
At 13th level, the Marshal can project 3 Minor Auras simultaneously.
At 19th level, the Marshal can project 4 Minor Auras simultaneously.
Confirm Critical Hits
Combat Maneuver Bonus
Combat Maneuver Defense
Fortitude Saves
Reflex Saves
Will Saves
Caster Level Checks and Concentration checks
AC vs. AoOs
Attack rolls on AoOs
Damage rolls on AoOs
Damage rolls when flanking
Charisma checks
Constitution checks
Dexterity checks
Intelligence checks
Strength checks
Wisdom checks
Damage when charging
AC vs. Charge
Added to Cure spells and Channel Energy
Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
x5 to speed when using the withdraw action
x5 to speed when charging
Initiative and Perception checks
Skill Focus. The Marshal gets Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Major Aura (Ex). Beginning at 2nd level, the Marshal can project a Major Aura. The bonus granted by a Major Aura is +1. At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, the amount of the Major Aura increases by +1. A Major Aura affects all allies within 60 feet of the Marshal.
The Marshal learns 1 Major Aura at 2nd level, and 1 additional Major Aura at every even level thereafter.
Projecting a Major Aura is a swift action. A Major Aura persists until the Marshal takes a swift action to change the aura, or he takes a free action to cease projecting the aura.
At 11th level, the Marshal can project 2 Major Auras simultaneously.
At 20th level, the Marshal can project 3 Major Auras simultaneously.
Each Major Aura provides its bonus to one of the following.
DR 1/-
Damage rolls
Attack Rolls
AC
Saving Throws
Speed increases by 5 feet per bonus
Energy Resistance (acid, cold, electrical, fire, or sonic) 5 x bonus
Fast Healing (up to one half the ally's maximum hit points)
Energy Shield 2 x bonus
Spell Resistance 5 + 5 per bonus
Ability Damage and Ability Drain Resistance
Negative Level Resistance
20% chance to negate extra damage from a critical hit or sneak attack
per plus.
10% miss chance per plus.
+1 to the Save DC of any extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural ability
Teamwork (Ex): At 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the Marshal gains a bonus Teamwork Feat that he qualifies for. In addition, the Marshal can spend a swift action and grant a number of allies equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1) the benefits of any Teamwork feat he knows for a number of rounds equal to half his level.
Grant Extra Action (Ex). Beginning at 3rd level, the Marshal can spend a standard action to grant all allies (except himself) within 60 feet an extra move action once per day. Each ally must use this extra move action immediately. At 9th level, it only costs the Marshal a move action to activate this ability. At 15th level, it only costs the Marshal a swift action to activate this ability.
At 6th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the Marshal gains an additional daily use of this ability.
At 6th level, the Marshal can spend 2 of his daily uses of Grant Extra Action and grant an extra standard action to all his allies within 60 feet. Each ally must use this extra standard action immediately.
At 9th level, the Marshal can spend 3 of his daily uses of Grant Extra Action and grant an extra full round action to all his allies within 60 feet. Each ally must use this extra full round action immediately.
Great Ally (Ex). Beginning at 4th level, whenever the Marshal uses or benefits from the Aid Another action or flanking, he provides or receives a +3 bonus instead of +2. This increases to +4 at 8th level, +5 at 12th level, +6 at 16th level, and +7 at 20th level.
Improved Aid Another (Ex). At 8th level, the Marshal can use the Aid Another action as a move action instead of a standard action.
At 16th level, he can use Aid Another as a swift action.
Widen Aura (Ex). At 14th level, the Marshal can choose to use 1 less than the maximum number of one type (Major or Minor) of aura he can project and double the range of the other auras of that type.
Free Auras (Ex). At 17th level, the Marshal can project a new aura as a free action instead of a swift action. This allows him to project or change multiple auras in the same round.
Move Self (Ex). At 20th level, the Marshal can affect himself when he uses the Grant Extra Action ability.
It can easily be explained. the Extra attack granted could be handled a bit differently. The Warlord designates the target the ally will attack, granted as an attack of opportunity, the warlord sees an opening and points it out in time for the ally to react and take advantage. The bonus could be either at the Warlord's attack bonus because it's the warlord pointing out the opening so it's only as good as his own personal best, or it could be handled based on that the ally could use their attack bonus due to them knowing how to take full advantage, whichever works for whatever design someone wants.
Sounds like a plausible explanation. Fine by me. As I said in a subsequent post, I am not against the mechanic of granting an attack, I just want a reasonable explanation as to how the Warlord class can do something that other classes cannot unless using a spell to do so.
Sounds like a plausible explanation. Fine by me. As I said in a subsequent post, I am not against the mechanic of granting an attack, I just want a reasonable explanation as to how the Warlord class can do something that other classes cannot unless using a spell to do so.
It can easily be explained. the Extra attack granted could be handled a bit differently. The Warlord designates the target the ally will attack, granted as an attack of opportunity, the warlord sees an opening and points it out in time for the ally to react and take advantage. The bonus could be either at the Warlord's attack bonus because it's the warlord pointing out the opening so it's only as good as his own personal best, or it could be handled based on that the ally could use their attack bonus due to them knowing how to take full advantage, whichever works for whatever design someone wants.
Because it's a class ability.
I think you'd be more interested in GURPS.
Because it's a class ability.I think you'd be more interested in GURPS.
So the descriptive text of class abilities is just a waste of print? GURPS it is then.
