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So a friend of mine and I were glossing over Inner Sea Magic and we both came to the conclusion that Golarion is overloaded with evil higher level casters. The only non-sketchy folks are Artokus the 20th level alchemist and Galfrey the Paladin leader of Mendev and a couple others, but no good guys have reached past 15th level in their spellcasting class.
And BTW, no wonder Andoran can't do anything against Cheliax. Have you seen how loaded their ruling class is? No wondering the devils have not run amok in Cheliax. What the?!
It falls under the 'Evil doesn't bother' rule.
Also, a lot of those evil high-level casters are
a) dead-but-dreaming (Tar-Baphon and his cronies, the Runelords)
b) the bosses of APs.
a) dead-but-dreaming (Tar-Baphon and his cronies, the Runelords)
b) the bosses of APs.
And all are endangered by the legions of goody-goody adventurers out there. Thankfully, evil is a renewable resource...
Seriously though, PC are intended to be the good-aligned high level characters of the setting; they don't need NPCs competing for the glory.
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The PCs are the good guys and that is why they are needed.
... PC are intended to be the good-aligned high level characters of the setting; they don't need NPCs competing for the glory.
And the group of high level PC's is an appropriate challenge for the single even higher level BBEG. Or is it the other way around...
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Besides your mainstays of evil (runelords, Tar-Baphon, Baba Yaga, etc.), take a look at Cheliax:
Abrogail Thrune II - LE female human Aristocrat 2 / Sorcerer 16
Kaltessa Iyis - NE female human Cleric of Mammom 10 / Diabolist 10
Kholas - NE male vampire sorcerer 14
Lrilatha - LE female erinyes Inquisitor 13
That's a pretty ballin' ruling elite for a country (I know Kholas is an Ambassador to Cheliax but still). Pretty sick.
The other thing I was thinking, if you wanted to buy 8th and 9th level scrolls, where are you going to find good high level spellcasters to make them (before you are able to at least)? Just a thought.
And I know the PCs are supposed to be the heroes and that's why there's not many good high level folk. But still, Golarion is overwhelmed with sketchy folks.
Creative Director
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While it IS worth keeping in mind that a lot of the bad guys listed in that section of Inner Sea Magic are "dead or dreaming," it's absolutely true that the majority of Golarion's high level NPCs are evil and/or bad guys (the two don't always go hand in hand).
This is SPECIFICALLY because we want the PCs to be the good guys.
... if you wanted to buy 8th and 9th level scrolls, where are you going to find good high level spellcasters to make them (before you are able to at least)? Just a thought...
I home my GM doesn't think of that. By the end of the AP, my wizard's spell book is libel to be a bit on the wrong side of thin.
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Abrogail Thrune II - LE female human Aristocrat 2 / Sorcerer 16
Kaltessa Iyis - NE female human Cleric of Mammom 10 / Diabolist 10
Kholas - NE male vampire sorcerer 14
Lrilatha - LE female erinyes Inquisitor 13
Bah. By the end of kingmaker a puny group of lords in the stolen lands could probably take the whole court down without too much trouble.
Bah. By the end of kingmaker a puny group of lords in the stolen lands could probably take the whole court down without too much trouble.Abrogail Thrune II - LE female human Aristocrat 2 / Sorcerer 16
Kaltessa Iyis - NE female human Cleric of Mammom 10 / Diabolist 10
Kholas - NE male vampire sorcerer 14
Lrilatha - LE female erinyes Inquisitor 13
Sure, if the Cheliax ruling elite was stupid enough to face them in direct combat. Its important to remember that these villains have the strength of a HUGE nation backing them up, along with a portion of the legions of Hell. Its not just the fruits of their own labor they have access to, its the work of their predecessors. The PC's at the end of Kingmaker most likely don't have the same resources.
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This is SPECIFICALLY because we want the PCs to be the good guys.
But I'm partial to the aims and goals of some of Golarion's bad guys. I'm actually a huge proponent of spreading the teachings of the Whispering Way and releasing Tar-Baphon.
/I just have a soft spot in my heart for liches.
//I think Voldemort and Sauron would have changed their respective worlds for the better.
///And they would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling "kids"!!!
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While it IS worth keeping in mind that a lot of the bad guys listed in that section of Inner Sea Magic are "dead or dreaming," it's absolutely true that the majority of Golarion's high level NPCs are evil and/or bad guys (the two don't always go hand in hand).
This is SPECIFICALLY because we want the PCs to be the good guys.
+1
I think that pretty much says it all. :)
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While it IS worth keeping in mind that a lot of the bad guys listed in that section of Inner Sea Magic are "dead or dreaming," it's absolutely true that the majority of Golarion's high level NPCs are evil and/or bad guys (the two don't always go hand in hand).
This is SPECIFICALLY because we want the PCs to be the good guys.
And that's why I love Golarion.
The PCs are the heroes. There's no "yeah, let's drop it, Elminster or Heroes of the Lance can handle that". It's you against all the nasty stuff of this world. I can't stress how much I adore this facet of world building philosophy at Paizo.
(...) Its important to remember that these villains have the strength of a HUGE nation [BOLD]backing them up[/BOLD], along with a portion of the legions of Hell. Its not just the fruits of their own labor they have access to, its the work of their predecessors. (...)
Because Evil only fights Good? The Cheliaxian Nobles are all working to power up and defend the Queen, how about the church of Asmodeus?
I always used the "Good fights Evil" and "Evil fights Good and Other Evil" as a way to long-term (until the PCs Heros are needed!) balance the large presence of Evil vs Good powers.
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I think James Jacobs makes an excellent point. By making sure the PCs are the good guys, we avoid the "Forgotten Realms syndrome". As much as i liked the 3.5 version of the world, I cant tell you how annoying it was in a game to have one of the seven sisters or chosen of mystra ie kheleben black staff or Elmisnter show up and set things right.
That's the Player's job with their characters, not some published PC's job.
One final thought. The Pathfinder Society is probably loaded with high level adventurers. They aren't published because, of the same reason.
On another thread where i asked people to post their 12 level Pathfinder Society organized play characters, when last I looked the list keeps growing I counted roughly 67 registered named 12 level characters.
By class thanks to Feral's spread sheet the break down is
Alchemsit: 2
Barbarian: 4
Bard: 5
Chavalier: 1
Cleric: 6 clerics, the majority worshiped Sarenrae
Druids: 7
Fighters: 10
Monks: 4
Oracle 1 (flame)
Paladins: 5 (2 Sarenrae, 2 Iomedae, 1 Abadar)
Ranger's 8
Rogue 8
Sorcerer 4
Witch 1
Wizards 5
Thats more level 12 adventurers then you can shake a stick at. Hypothetically, if the Decemverate sent all of those 12 level adventureres after the ruler of Cheliax, (minus the 10 chelaxian ones) that would be 57 12 level adventures, this could break down to 14 4 member teams. I think even Celiax would have trouble dealing with such a plague of adventurers.
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What about Old Mage Jatembe(for me the npc with the coolest history)? in the Inner Sea Magic he is true neutral , but i always thought he was Neutral Good.
I honestly like to see a few more neutrals, but at the same time most of the means of living for more than your natural lifespan are evil it makes since that evil creatures would be the ones that have lasted longer than they should.
Question: How many of each alignment are 'unavailable' at this time, and how many have perused forms of immortality.
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Yes, but canonicly we're not part of Golarian's universe or chronology, at least not at a consensual level. AFter all, the Decemberivate didn't send 67 adventurers to any given adventure, but only the canonical 4-6.I think James Jacobs makes an excellent point. By making sure the PCs are the good guys, we avoid the "Forgotten Realms syndrome". As much as i liked the 3.5 version of the world, I cant tell you how annoying it was in a game to have one of the seven sisters or chosen of mystra ie kheleben black staff or Elmisnter show up and set things right.
That's the Player's job with their characters, not some published PC's job.
One final thought. The Pathfinder Society is probably loaded with high level adventurers. They aren't published because, of the same reason.
On another thread where i asked people to post their 12 level Pathfinder Society organized play characters, when last I looked the list keeps growing I counted roughly 67 registered named 12 level characters.
By class thanks to Feral's spread sheet the break down is
Alchemsit: 2
Barbarian: 4
Bard: 5
Chavalier: 1
Cleric: 6 clerics, the majority worshiped Sarenrae
Druids: 7
Fighters: 10
Monks: 4
Oracle 1 (flame)
Paladins: 5 (2 Sarenrae, 2 Iomedae, 1 Abadar)
Ranger's 8
Rogue 8
Sorcerer 4
Witch 1
Wizards 5Thats more level 12 adventurers then you can shake a stick at. Hypothetically, if the Decemverate sent all of those 12 level adventureres after the ruler of Cheliax, (minus the 10 chelaxian ones) that would be 57 12 level adventures, this could break down to 14 4 member teams. I think even Celiax would have trouble dealing with such a plague of adventurers.
True enough, I doubt the Decemverate would ever do something like that. I don't think toppling despots would be of any interest to them-rooting around in royal tombs for artifacts lost manuscripts and treasure to take back to the grand lodge...yes
While only the printed characters which appear in a source book are "cannon", I thought the PFS was a good source to go to for PCs. they are reported and verified so to speak, unlike a home game.|
Director of Brand Strategy
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What about Old Mage Jatembe(for me the npc with the coolest history)? in the Inner Sea Magic he is true neutral , but i always thought he was Neutral Good.
He was NG. The reference to him being N was a typo.
But he's another one that's dead or dreaming. Unless you want to run a campaign in which he's "woken up," which would actually make a pretty near adventure!
I'll second that Jatembe is one of the coolest characters around, with bonus points to being NG. Who on staff originally came up with his concept?
What books is Jatembe from? I've never heard of him before Inner Sea Magic. He seems like a very interesting character.
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What books is Jatembe from? I've never heard of him before Inner Sea Magic. He seems like a very interesting character.
There have been references to him salted throughout the Campaign Guide and World Guide. As I understand it, he was a Mwangi mage who lived millenia ago, codified a lot of the system of what is now arcane magic today, and battled demons and the like alongside ten 'Magic Warriors' that he personally trained. His full name/title is 'Old Mage Jatembe'.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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There's also a bit of information on Jatembe in Heart of the Jungle. You can read about him on PathfinderWiki as well!
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Where's the love for veteran adventuring Summoners?! Where's the love? I sayeth fie to your endless army of evil necromancers.
I want a chaotic summoner who organizes fantastic celestial street parades when he/she is particularly happy and fiendish terrier packs running amok when she/he is unhappy.
I want a Rovagug worshiping summoner who draws upon the Pit to birth bitey horrors upon the world on a permanent basis using some dark artifact he's unearthed.
I want a timid politician summoner who draws upon celestials constantly for advice and counsel in everything he does.
I want a tricksy summoner whose eidolon is a near-perfect carbon copy of himself/herself that they use to dupe, mystify and slam attack foes and rivals.
Where's the love for veteran adventuring Summoners?! Where's the love? I sayeth fie to your endless army of evil necromancers.
I want a chaotic summoner who organizes fantastic celestial street parades when he/she is particularly happy and fiendish terrier packs running amok when she/he is unhappy.
I want a Rovagug worshiping summoner who draws upon the Pit to birth bitey horrors upon the world on a permanent basis using some dark artifact he's unearthed.
I want a timid politician summoner who draws upon celestials constantly for advice and counsel in everything he does.
I want a tricksy summoner whose eidolon is a near-perfect carbon copy of himself/herself that they use to dupe, mystify and slam attack foes and rivals.
I want a halfling broodmaster summoner whose eidolons are as many as eight halfling Charlie's Angels. :P
... I want a halfling broodmaster summoner whose eidolons are as many as eight halfling Charlie's Angels. :P
Lordy, but I hope my group doesn't read this one.
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Creative Director
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Where's the love for veteran adventuring Summoners?! Where's the love? I sayeth fie to your endless army of evil necromancers.
Summoners, unlike pretty much every other base class (INCLUDING gunslingers), don't really have a "niche" pre-built into Golarion. We've had alchemists and oracles and witches and the like as part of the game setting from the very start... but we haven't done anything like that for summoners.
A very early idea of the summoner (well before the first public playtest) had a version of the summoner who didn't summon eidolons—instead, they summoned specific pre-existing types of outsiders, like demons or angels or elementals, similar to how a druid works with pre-existing types of animals.
The eidolon, alas, doesn't really have a "niche" pre-built into Golarion, and as such, the summoner feels, to me, out of place unless they specifically summon angels or demons or elementals or the like as their "eidolon."
We've tinkered with a few summoners here and there in adventures and supplements, but it's EASILY the class that is the rarest in Golarion among NPCs.
Where's the love for veteran adventuring Summoners?! Where's the love? I sayeth fie to your endless army of evil necromancers.
Summoners, unlike pretty much every other base class (INCLUDING gunslingers), don't really have a "niche" pre-built into Golarion. We've had alchemists and oracles and witches and the like as part of the game setting from the very start... but we haven't done anything like that for summoners.
A very early idea of the summoner (well before the first public playtest) had a version of the summoner who didn't summon eidolons—instead, they summoned specific pre-existing types of outsiders, like demons or angels or elementals, similar to how a druid works with pre-existing types of animals.
The eidolon, alas, doesn't really have a "niche" pre-built into Golarion, and as such, the summoner feels, to me, out of place unless they specifically summon angels or demons or elementals or the like as their "eidolon."
We've tinkered with a few summoners here and there in adventures and supplements, but it's EASILY the class that is the rarest in Golarion among NPCs.
I can understand that, if for no other reason than you're essentially designing two NPC's. They are oddballs compared to the other classes, but doesn't that give you more options on where to put them? Or is the lack of specificity a bigger problem than I think?
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Summoners seem to be one of the most Planes-conscious adventuring classes in the game. More so than wizards, even. A wizard can hurl fire and build homunculus without knowing where this arcana is coming from. A summoner who has to locate and create ties to a alien, extra-planar being has to be very familiar with this lore.
So wherever you have spell-casters with a sophisticated awareness of the outer and extra planes, you should be getting summoners.
Perhaps summoners come from strange Planar Observatories or settlements near Extra-Reality Sinkholes the same way monks come from Hidden Monasteries. They could be trainee sorcerors who are tempted into furthering their binding magic to unimagined levels.
I think Eberron excelled because they carved out a huge and believable niches for their new classes. Think of the psionic and artificer classes place in Eberron. Now think of the Summoners place in Golarion and you can see they haven't been half as lucky. Yet witches, who are from the same book, receive an entire nation and alchemists have changed the face of Golarion politics with the invention of Sun-Orchid Elixir.
Perhaps the Summoners niche in Golarion is hidden. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
"Meh I use summoners the same way I use fighters, as a meatshield." -- Anonymous Wizard
The closest relationship the Summoner may ever develop is with a vague undefined ( in game terms) outsider. It may simply be that after years of summoning the eidolon to him the high level summoner chooses to journey to his eidolon's home. Wandering the planes is often the fate of spellcasters with no political aspirations; it would seem that the Summoner is more susceptible than most.
Where's the love for veteran adventuring Summoners?! Where's the love? I sayeth fie to your endless army of evil necromancers.
Summoners, unlike pretty much every other base class (INCLUDING gunslingers), don't really have a "niche" pre-built into Golarion. We've had alchemists and oracles and witches and the like as part of the game setting from the very start... but we haven't done anything like that for summoners.
A very early idea of the summoner (well before the first public playtest) had a version of the summoner who didn't summon eidolons—instead, they summoned specific pre-existing types of outsiders, like demons or angels or elementals, similar to how a druid works with pre-existing types of animals.
The eidolon, alas, doesn't really have a "niche" pre-built into Golarion, and as such, the summoner feels, to me, out of place unless they specifically summon angels or demons or elementals or the like as their "eidolon."
We've tinkered with a few summoners here and there in adventures and supplements, but it's EASILY the class that is the rarest in Golarion among NPCs.
What about summoning something like a unique leng spider?
