Ninja build help


Advice


I'm trying to figure out how I should build a ninja and all I know is that dual-wielding katana's is my best option probably for weapons. Feat wise no clue.

For a 15 point buy, I did
str- 10
dex - 16
Con- 10
Int- 12
Wis- 8
Cha- 14


zauriel56 wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how I should build a ninja and all I know is that dual-wielding katana's is my best option probably for weapons. Feat wise no clue.

For a 15 point buy, I did
str- 10
dex - 16
Con- 10
Int- 12
Wis- 8
Cha- 14

A negative Wis modifier is a very risky idea. That save is going to be very low to begin with and that is just going to make it worse.

Duel wielding wakizashi is probably a better idea since they are light weapons. Rogues have enough problems hitting already. Weapon Finese is required to use Dex to hit and you'll probably want Weapon focus to help you hit.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I'm not a fan of 15 PB, but as it is, you may want to consider Int as your dumpstat (I'm not a fan of low int chars either). You have loads of skill points already.


I agree with Vaellen. As a ninja, you get more SP than you need to be effective. I'd switch INT and WIS, or at least make them both 10

Liberty's Edge

Dual wielding katanas is a very bad idea. They're not useable with weapon finesse or piranha strike as they're not light weapons, and as your offhand weapon is not light you'll take severe penalties to hit. I'd be more inclined to dual wield wakizashi.

I'd probably go:

Str 13
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 7
Wis 12
Chr 14

Halfling will make your stats look a bit more respectable, though your dpr will suck if you're not getting backstab (at least until you get a pair of agile weapons and piranha strike).

For feats you're going to want: Weapon Finesse, TWF, Piranha strike, improved two weapon fighting, and maybe weapon focus: Wakizashi, toughness, iron will, great fortitude.


We're allowed any one magic item we want so I think I'm going with a sun blade, so I carry one katana in my main hand and my sun blade in my off-hand.


zauriel56 wrote:
We're allowed any one magic item we want so I think I'm going with a sun blade, so I carry one katana in my main hand and my sun blade in my off-hand.

Alright, you wanna dual wield, so you're taking the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. This is not up for debate. Now that that's out of the way, lets look at what else you'd like to do.

People are recommending that you dual wield Wakizashis, because of the way Two-Weapon Fighting works. If your off-hand weapon is a light weapon, your attacks are only made at a -2 penalty instead of -4. They're suggesting that you use one in your main hand as well so that you can take the feat Weapon Focus (Wakizashi), giving you a +1 to hit with your main hand and your off hand. If you want to wield a katana and a sun blade, Weapon Focus isn't as efficient. You would have to take the feat twice, once to apply to your katana and once to short swords. That being said, you don't have to take Weapon Focus at all if you really don't want to. It's just that, for Ninjas, hitting is more of a problem than actually doing damage, so dual wielding wakizashis with Weapon Focus is a very common, effective build.

Now, the most important part of why people are recommending wakizashis: Weapon Finesse. Strength determines your ability to hit and deal damage in melee. You have no strength. If you want to do anything in combat at all, you need Weapon Finesse. Now, Weapon Finesse only works with light weapons. A Sun Blade counts as a short sword, so you're okay there, but if you really want to wield a katana then you will be very bad at hitting things. You can't do damage if you don't hit anything. To recap:

Katanas require strength to be effective. If you want a katana, stack strength.

If you want to stack dexterity and not be useless in combat, get the Weapon Finesse feat and use light weapons. Wakizashis are the best light weapons in the game.

If you want to dual wield, make sure your off hand weapon is a light weapon.

Also, it's really difficult to stay stealthy when carrying around a three foot long glowing sword. Just sayin'


Sun blade counts as a bastard sword and a short sword for weapon focus in 3.5 dmg. Is it different in pathfinder?


zauriel56 wrote:
Sun blade counts as a bastard sword and a short sword for weapon focus in 3.5 dmg. Is it different in pathfinder?

No, it's not different, a sun blade counts as both.

But it still doesn't change the fact that it's more efficient to dual wield two of the same weapon with Weapon Focus, nor does it change the fact that your katana will have a terrible chance to hit since it doesn't benefit from Weapon Finesse and you only have 10 strength.


You can have the "agile weapon" enhancement for +5000 on both your wakzashis, so for 14000 overall cost you have 2 +1 wakizashi with your weapon focus on it, get your DEX to hit with weapon finesse and the "agile weapon" lets you have your DEX as added damage per blade.
Guess you can more than hold up with that.
Take Double Slice for more damage, because you substitute STR with DEX too there. You can even make them flat-footed with Two weapon feint for the sake of one attack, what is really nice because you can fight oponents all alone now and still get your sneak attack.
Only mind your AC then. A trick is taking medium armor and having it made of mithril. Mithril Kikko armor costs 4180, mithril chain 1100, but kikko armor has +1 more on armor and later the enchantments kick in.
Mithril kikko armor +2 has the same stats as mithril chain +3, but is 2100gp cheaper. You don´t need to worry about the medium armor because the armor check penalty is 0 and the mithril makes it light.
The only thing you really need to worry about is hitting then, John of Arc is right.

I guess thats some relict of D&D, that rogue/ninja are lower BAB, maybe because they are only backstabbers.
Therefore its worth for everyone who has use magic device to take up three feats plus the hedge magician trait and build their own magic arms and armor and wondrous items. You will be off far better, since nearly no feats can account for all the boni you get from the magic stuff.
(very much to my own annoyance).


For a 15 point buy, I did
str- 10
dex - 16
Con- 10
Int- 12
Wis- 8
Cha- 14

-Ok, Dual wielding is generally a bad idea. You need to spend feats to build yourself UP to the level of some schmuck just swinging a two hander.... except you'll have a lower bonus to hit.

This is especially true for rogues, who rely on backstabbing to do extra damage. Each - to hit when you sneak attack means less chance of sneak attacking, which sucks. I know its iconic, but rogues (even ninjas) are low powered as it is. You have to optimize or sink.

Any melee character, especially rogues, are rough to do on a 15 point buy.

I would highly recommend half orc. Not only can you see in the dark, but you can pick up a bite attack if you happen to be lucky enough to full attack while flanking.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


For a 15 point buy, I did
str- 10
dex - 16
Con- 10
Int- 12
Wis- 8
Cha- 14

I'm curious as to your stats. Why the high Int, low Con, and low Wis? I'd do Con 12, Wis 10, Int 8. I know it's awesome to have a bunch of skills and even 8 + Int runs out quickly when you look at the skills that you want, but Con is nice for keeping you alive and Wis is nice because your Will save sucks and Perception is awesome.

As for race, if you don't mind a Str penalty halfings are awesome. IMO.

Grand Lodge

One of my player's switched at 3rd level from a Rogue to a Ninja. He decided to drop the dual short sword wielding dex-based Rogue for a 2-handed katana wielding Ninja.

When he was a Rogue, he would kill things when both attacks hit while flanking. Which I think happened all of twice on the medium xp track from levels 1 to about 3.5. When not flanking, or when fighting anything with a decent AC, or when ever something didn't just stand there and get blended ... he missed, a lot. Also, trying to use stealth to set up a flat-footed assault was terrible.

Now as a Ninja, he uses the ki point for the extra attack and kills things. He deals good damage when the target moves. Flanking basically guarantees hits. He has feats to make him better, not just up to par. And he doesn't need to stealth in combat, he just uses vanishing trick and runs in.

He was dead set on dual wielding. He thought, "it ruined the idea of a rogue if they don't dual wield." ... He will now never play a dual wielding rogue again, because he actually enjoys being effective.

In conclusion, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out something that someone in the same boat went through. 3.x/PF is not friendly towards dual wielding 3/4 BAB classes. I don't know your DM. I let my player switch because sometimes player happiness > story continuity. It just sucks to see people get stuck with characters that aren't fun.


STR 16
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 14

If it were me i would go with the above. You're a rogue, you hit things. That means strength in D&D, unless you want to waste an already feat starved class on getting weapon finesse.

Dex makes you ok at dodging and your skills. Stealth doesn't need to be uber, after level 2 you'll have +20 when you need it.

Int get you skill points.. you already have 8 of those. You can live with 7

wis: i'd like more, but 15 point buy is tight

cha: more ki! Ninja ki is awsome. It lets you extra attack. Keep in mind that throwing stars are a free action to draw , so you can declare a full attack, attack with your katana, and if you finish off your opponent, throw a throwing star at someone else.

Your goal is to get 1 ki point per combat round in a day.

Traits: reactionary +2 init
Toothy: Secondary Bite attack.

1: feat weapon focus katana
2: trick: Vanishing trick
3: feat: Extra Ki
4: trick: Shadow Clones
5: -Take a level of unarmed fighter. Pick up your free improved unarmed strike (you are a ninja after all) and grab Dragon style, which lets you charge through allies, difficult terrain, provides some ok bonuses, AND lets you punch really hard. You're in it for the charge, the rest is just gravy. Also grab iron will.
6th: more ninja
7th: Improved iron will, Pressure points (the dragon can't fight with a 0 dex)

Someone more familiar with rogues might know some better talents for you to take (you can take all the rogue talents you want). I'm a little underwhelmed by most of the other ninja tricks.

Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.

Grand Lodge

Hmmmm. Unarmed Fighter you say BigNorse? I'll mention that to my Ninja player.

I agree with all of the above (Especially Shadow Clones as an "Oh Snap" button), except Extra Ki. Ki is great for the ninja, but you get 1/2 your level. At level 1-5 that is gonna be rough. But at level 10 you will look back with your 7 ki points and probably say, "I wish that feat was something that let me sneak attack creatures in dim lighting or with blur." That's why I say level 3 feat should be:

Shadow Strike: You can deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).

Also, Weapon Focus: Katana and Iron Will have to be switched, as Weapon Focus requires BAB +1. If you're starting at higher than level 1 I would take Unarmed Fighter as level 1. +2 HP and all that.

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