Does a ranger with humanoid (human) favored enemy get the benefit of favored enemy if he is attacking a human druid that has shape shifted into an animal?
Last night I was running The Slumbering Tsar and our group of 4 8th level characters decided to an old-school school yard type fight by the flag pole against Skeribar (CR9) and all 7 of his Rangers (CR4).
The Userer had them settle the fight in The Desolation, so the group stupidly decided to give the rangers a 10 minute head start. The group walked into a trap with a storm of arrows I intended to use for a TPK.
I feel like I am a good DM, but blatant stupidity energizes me to be extremely tactical and vicious.
Only one of the party members (a gnome barbarian) charged for the first two rounds. Seriously, I focused like 30+ attacks on him in the first two rounds.
I rolled out in the open so there would be no hurt feelings because I expected this to be a bloodbath.
We have a house rule that if you fumble you role a d20 again. If you get a 1-10 then you role a d30 (we have one). The higher they role on the d30 the worse the fumble.
A 1,1,30 from the d20s and d30 is a green light for such a horrible accident it can result in death. Within 2 rounds I had a 1,1,28 a 1,1,29 and a 1,1,27. I had those three rangers break their bows and fall prone.
I tried to be mean. Somehow they lived and beat them all. Arrgh I was frustrated! Seriously, they rolled 20 after 20 and I had only 1 crit in a long brutal battle.
And that stupid gnome has SO MUCH LIFE!. In 8 levels the lowest he has rolled is a 10, and he has a 22Con, and keeps choosing a HP each level, and he has Improved Toughness!
Anyway, one party member, a human druid, turned into a lion or something and went after the rangers one at a time. All the rangers had human as their favored enemy. I could not find in the books, or in the message boards today, if the favored enemy bonus would apply for the rangers.
On one hand polymorph makes it clear that you are NOT what you turn into and it acts as the beasthshape spell. However, the druid DOES have the anatomy of the Lion and not that of a human.
To not break the flow of the game we decided as a group to cut the benefits in half. All five of us could see it go either way, and all five of us decided rather quickly to just cut the bonus in half. I love my group, they are so easy and fun to play with. Nit picking in-game is naturally frowned upon because it breaks the flow of the game, so it is easy to find temporary consensus.
Nitpicking comes AFTER the session for future reference.
Does anyone know what the rule is for future reference?
Does a ranger with humanoid (human) favored enemy get the benefit of favored enemy if he is attacking a human druid that has shape shifted into an animal?
The answer is yes. The fact that Druids maintain their humanoid (human) type is the same reason they cannot use Animal Growth on themselves, which would be broken as heck.
and in fact, druid shapeshifting also references the beast shape spells.
Changing your type in pathfinder is much harder than it was in 3.5, so unless an ability says otherwise, you retain your own type.
and in fact, druid shapeshifting also references the beast shape spells.
Changing your type in pathfinder is much harder than it was in 3.5, so unless an ability says otherwise, you retain your own type.
That makes perfect sense in "the rules," but don't you think favored enemy has more to do with anatomy? Would you go by the rules or go by a certain house rule on this?
As an extraordinary ability, I imagine favored enemy is effective because you know how to aim to get the heart or liver or other vital part or the body. If it was a supernatural ability I would think it would still apply.
However, I will go by the rules. Thanks for the prompt response!
The favored enemy would still apply. While he looks like a lion, he's still very human. Human mind, human reflexes, human instincts.
If they hadn't seen him shape change, I think it would have been appropriate for the rangers to roll knowledge nature/local (let's say DC level + 5) to recognize that he's not actual a lion. If they fail, they fight as if he was a real lion (thus no bonus). If they succeed or see him wild shape, they use their anti human techniques.
It seems less absurd if you consider that with all the magic commonly being slung around part of that 'favored enemy vs humans' training would include stuff like:
"if a human shape changes they're still human wearing another's skin blah blah organs end up being in the same relative place blah blah reflexively protect their groin even if they have paws/claws/tentacles blah blah certain sleight of hand gestures or movements can't be followed by their eyes blah blah will mate with just about anything."
Think of it as getting inside the head of the species, and understanding how they will jump on reflex or react based on outlook. "i'll feint and jab to the left, because (favored enemy) tends to move this way when reacting instinctively"
Well, I kept my original post to the rules, since thats the forum this is in. I dont like suggesting houserules in it normally.
I could be comfortable with a houserule suggesting that, but as a counterpoint, consider this.
While a spell will change you physically, it doesnt alter your mental state. A druid in lion form still thinks like a human, moves tactically like a human, but does so with an advanced grace and muscle structure of a lion.
A ranger trained to hunt humans will still recognize this, and alter his fighting style. Things like leading with a bow requires understanding where your foe will move next, which is partly mental.
Consider that part of rangers favoured enemy bonus is things like tracking the favoured enemy, which is as much mental as physical...knowing what sort of lair they favor, or what tactics they might use.
I would probably still argue against a houserule on that basis, but its certainly open to your own interpretation
The favored enemy would still apply. While he looks like a lion, he's still very human. Human mind, human reflexes, human instincts.
If they hadn't seen him shape change, I think it would have been appropriate for the rangers to roll knowledge nature/local (let's say DC level + 5) to recognize that he's not actual a lion. If they fail, they fight as if he was a real lion (thus no bonus). If they succeed or see him wild shape, they use their anti human techniques.
It seems less absurd if you consider that with all the magic commonly being slung around part of that 'favored enemy vs humans' training would include stuff like:
"if a human shape changes they're still human wearing another's skin blah blah organs end up being in the same relative place blah blah reflexively protect their groin even if they have paws/claws/tentacles blah blah certain sleight of hand gestures or movements can't be followed by their eyes blah blah will mate with just about anything."
While a spell will change you physically, it doesnt alter your mental state. A druid in lion form still thinks like a human, moves tactically like a human, but does so with an advanced grace and muscle structure of a lion.
A ranger trained to hunt humans will still recognize this, and alter his fighting style. Things like leading with a bow requires understanding where your foe will move next, which is partly mental.
Consider that part of rangers favoured enemy bonus is things like tracking the favoured enemy, which is as much mental as physical...knowing what sort of lair they favor, or what tactics they might use.
Good suggestion and point. My mind is at ease about letting the bonus apply, and I really like the suggestion of the "check" in the event the ranger did not see the shapechange.
Thanks all.
If anyone would know how an animal would act and react though, wouldn't it be a druid? I think the half bonus is a good compromise.
If anyone would know how an animal would act and react though, wouldn't it be a druid? I think the half bonus is a good compromise.
If you're asking that question to other people in this thread, they were last on here over 3 years ago.
The rules on this are clear both in RAW and RAI (there were intentional changes from 3.X to PF).
In this case, the Druid is still Humanoid (Human) even in Wild Shape/Polymorph and is fully susceptible to the Ranger's Favored Enemy.
Anything else is a house rule (which is another forum, and even then I would think long and hard before buffing "Tier" 1-2 classes over "Tier" 4-5 ones, especially for fluff that can go either way).