Can a crew of zombies and skeletons properly serve as the crew of a 40 gun frigate (this is happening in this world), or do they lack the necessary intelligence to carry out all the necessary tasks?
This brings up a second issue. According to my research, a French 40 frigate from the late 18th/early 19th century (which is about the technology level of this particular encounter) would have had a crew of around 326, give or take a few depending on the exact ship. This means that I need a similar number of undead in order to crew this ship. The only non-mindless undead on the ship is a lich necromancer (I haven't decided whether she should be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric yet), and controlling a force of 326 undead created with the Animate Dead spell would take a caster level of 82. I haven't decided on her CR yet, but I want it somewhere in the mid-teens. There is no way she is controlling that many undead with Animate Dead. I need to figure out some way to put all these undead under her control.
Crew size can be less - you don't need service personal (Cook, Doctor, Helpers for all those etc.), and you don't need the Off shift crew (Crew below I think the term is).
And that was with a full crew size... the ship could easily opperate with a "skeleton crew"... sorry couldn't resist.
True, but if we cut down on service and relief personnel we are still looking at a force requiring a caster level in the 30s or 40s, and it's still unclear whether zombies and skeletons are smart enough to carry out the necessary tasks to operate a ship at sea.
Perhaps as few as a third of your numbers? maybe a quarter?
Maybe a third could work.
I recommend making the lich a super genius Death Mage
If you take the Corpse Mage Pale Road you have the 'Army of Undead' ability. Which is essentially leadership with undead. A 13th level Death mage (thus CR 15) with say a 22 charisma you would have you're cohort + 48 follower undead. Add to that what you can animate and control via the spell animate dead and you have I believe more then enough to crew a ship.
perhaps a paddlewheel gun-boat would be better. with most of the undead turning a big crank in a sealed box. Kind of an undead engine....
Nah. I LOVE the idea of an undead frigate.
Why such a large frigate ? A 40 is close to as large as frigates come (the American 44s being the biggest). Could you make do with a 28, or even with a Sloop of War of 16 ?
IIRC, zombies and skeletons lose any skills they had in life, so the limitation is going to be things like climbing the rigging and making the correct knots and anything else that requires a skill roll. They'll probably succeed eventually, but not as smartly as a well-trained living crew.
I recommend making the lich a super genius Death Mage
If you take the Corpse Mage Pale Road you have the 'Army of Undead' ability. Which is essentially leadership with undead. A 13th level Death mage (thus CR 15) with say a 22 charisma you would have you're cohort + 48 follower undead. Add to that what you can animate and control via the spell animate dead and you have I believe more then enough to crew a ship.
Thanks.
Why such a large frigate ? A 40 is close to as large as frigates come (the American 44s being the biggest). Could you make do with a 28, or even with a Sloop of War of 16 ?
I wanted a big battle, so I went with a big ship.
The PCs won't actually be fighting all of these undead. They are onboard a different ship, and that ship's crew will be fighting the undead while the PC's go straight for the lich. The idea of having such a big ship is basically to make the battle between the undead and the friendly sailors seem like a really big fray.
IIRC, zombies and skeletons lose any skills they had in life, so the limitation is going to be things like climbing the rigging and making the correct knots and anything else that requires a skill roll. They'll probably succeed eventually, but not as smartly as a well-trained living crew.
Thanks. I'll take that into account when statting out the ship's crew.
keep in mind that the skeletons dont all need to be humanoid. So the 'riggers' might be undead based off something with a climb speed (which would be retained) like an APE.
Also keep in mind this piece of flavor text:
"While most skeletons are mindless automatons, they still possess an evil cunning imparted to them by their animating force—a cunning that allows them to wield weapons and wear armor."
While not insanely complicated, effectively weilding a bow or sword, or using armor is not simple. Is there any reason why that 'evil cunning' cant instead impart them with the basic skills of a sailor? I really dont see a reason why not. Besides you are the dm, you could always create a special sailor undead template created by this liche, there problem solved.
Also keep in mind this piece of flavor text:
"While most skeletons are mindless automatons, they still possess an evil cunning imparted to them by their animating force—a cunning that allows them to wield weapons and wear armor."While not insanely complicated, effectively weilding a bow or sword, or using armor is not simple. Is there any reason why that 'evil cunning' cant instead impart them with the basic skills of a sailor? I really dont see a reason why not. Besides you are the dm, you could always create a special sailor undead template created by this liche, there problem solved.
Again, thanks. That could work, especially if this sailor template was applied to undead raised from the corpses of sailors. It would make sense for undead that used to be sailors to maintain some of the basic skills of a sailor, especially if the creator found this desirable.
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This brings to mind such awesome images, like a zombie packing a cannon with his own severed leg.
I'd say they should work like factory machines when not given specific orders. A few undead on every cannon just constantly loading and firing when in combat.
As for actually moving the ship, have you considered ways to move it without it sailing? Some kind of otherworldy force that lets the ship move despite the sails having no wind is a pretty cool and spooky image.
Ships crewed by the undead are such a common fantasy trope that the system has to support it. My take is that the officers will likely need to be intelligent, but the basic crew can probably get by (badly) as skeletons. Their tactics ought to be very brittle and sensitive to the loss of any officers--especially the ones operating the cannons.
Officers? Hmm...
Human necromancers in service to the lich, perhaps in exchange for a promise of information on how to become a lich? If they cast Animate Dead spells of their own they could increase the number of undead on the ship, as the lich would not need to control them all herself. She could delegate to her officers. It could also give the PCs an objective: the NPC friendly sailors go after the horde of undead and keep them occupied while the PCs go after the officers and lich to eliminate those controlling the undead, thereby ensuring victory in the battle.
As for actually moving the ship, have you considered ways to move it without it sailing? Some kind of otherworldy force that lets the ship move despite the sails having no wind is a pretty cool and spooky image.
Yes, that would be cool. If the ship were rotting and held together by some sort of necromantic energy it'd be an even spookier image.
Is there any reason why that 'evil cunning' cant instead impart them with the basic skills of a sailor? I really dont see a reason why not.
Yes. It's called RAW.
Skills: A skeleton loses all skill ranks possessed by the base creature and gains none of its own.
Skills: A zombie has no skill ranks.
However: Rule 0 (The GM is always right) overrides.
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Don't forget Control Undead. It has no HD limit. You can animate them using Animate Undead, but when you have too many, Control Undead will pick up the leftovers. It only affects one undead at a time, but lasts days. So a high level caster should be able to keep it refreshed on each of his servants every few days.
Is there any reason why that 'evil cunning' cant instead impart them with the basic skills of a sailor? I really dont see a reason why not.Yes. It's called RAW.
And if the op creates a 'sailor' undead template as I suggested, you now have a houserule for it. My point was that such an alteration to undead specific to what the OP is trying to accomplish still fits within the general flavor of the original rule. Obviously it would involve alterations to RaW in the form of house rules. But again given RaW allows for house rules, this isn't a violation of Raw.
First off, within the rules, a creature with a listed intelligence of '-' is restricted to a fairly small list of skills, and I'm fairly sure Profession isn't on it.
Secondly, my Age of Sail nautical lore informs me that "sailor" was a highly skilled profession. Any profession that could be chained to its station (such as pumps or galley oars) could probably be programmed into skeletons: certainly being in the ship's boarding crew. But not sailing - and particularly not cannon crew! Are you trying to blow yourself up? Look, go Google "landsman", "ordinary seaman," and "able seaman." It would be like ordering the undead to "cut down this forest" and acting surprised when all you came back to was a bunch of bones scattered around fallen logs. (Yes, a tree is a blunt weapon!)
Now that my inner Armchair Expert has been satisfied, I must concede that an undead crew is A) a common fantasy trope and B) too cool to be forbidden. I would suggest using the Draugr (page 110 of Bestiary 2) for your crewmen: they're sea-themed already and only CR 2 with minor supernatural abilities, so NPCs can fight them and not be slaughtered instantly.
A zombie could probably be a better sailor than I was XD.
I like the above suggestion of creating a template for this. Basically, the necromancers would create zombies and skeletons specifically intended for use as sailors, and therefore they would retain some vestige of the Profession (Sailor) skill they had in life despite the fact that undead normally shouldn't be able to do this. It's a subversion of the rules designed allow something totally awesome. I love sailing and ships to death, and Undead is by and far my favorite monster type, so it must be done.
I tend to do undead-rowed galleys -- they're more manueverable (no need for wind), skeletons can probably handle rowing, and the big problem for galleys (big crew = lots of food and water = short duration) doesn't matter with undead.
That said, I can always invent a new monster ("skeleton sailor", just like a skeleton except it has ranks in Profession/sailor), or some kind of spell to cast on skeletons to make them semi-functional. Or just use skeletons for the mindless labor and _unseen servants_ for some of the other stuff.
Or craft another magic item, like the ship's wheel, which unites and influences the skeletons. Give the PCs a tactical goal. Or a small magic item (a drum? a whistle? a trumpet?) which controls the skeletons on that ship.
The trope is too cool not to use, and there are any number of ways to do it.
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I can't think of any precedent within the rules for what I'm thinking, but what if the ship itself is providing the undead with their skill? Why can't the boat be haunted by the spirits of its long dead crew? These spirits aren't ghosts so much as a manifestation of undying will that spurs the undead to "turn to" (that's "get to work" for all you landlubbers.) In effect, the skeletons and zombies are just puppets. Any creature that dies aboard or in the vicinity of the vessel has its body shanghaied by the boat to serve as its newest crewmember.
The party could discover the ship itself is the real threat and the lich is really only some lucky stiff who's taking advantage of the vessel's power. The lich wouldn't even need to control the undead since the boat itself is really doing all the work.
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We can do this:
Feats to look at:
Allied Spellcaster (if the allied caster has the spell prepared you get a +1 caster level for the spell).
Bloatmage Initiate (+1 to necromancy spell's caster level)
Undead Master (+4 to your caster level for animated undead and for the command undead feat)
Varasian Tattoo (+1 caster level for necromancy spells)
Spell Perfection (animate dead -- doubles all the previous bonuses so a total of +14 to caster level for animate dead)
Orange Prism Ioun Stone for another +1 caster level.
This means your caster level for animate undead is 30 at level 15, which means you can control 120 hit dice of undead with the spell.
Now since you are a cleric right? You'll use command undead to control another 19 hit dice.
Finally you are going to want Thendoic spell which allows you to use mind affecting magic on undead -- such as geas/quest. Then simply Geas/quest/whatever the rest of the undead you need into obeying you until their hearts beat again or some such thing.
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Here's another thought-- maybe the crew is really only about 30-40% undead. The rest are basically slave labor, forced to operate as the liche's crew by magic or threats, who are in varying degrees of sickness and wasting. The idea isn't that the liche raised an entire "skeleton crew", but that it commandeered a vessel, enslaved its crew, and is now working them to death and simply reanimating any crewmember that dies of fatigue or starvation. The implication is that the crew WILL be entirely undead soon if the PC's don't intervene, and it helps the liche earn "evil points" that will make your players want to take it down all the more. It also explains where a necromancer finds 300-something sailor corpses in the first place.
Here's another thought-- maybe the crew is really only about 30-40% undead. The rest are basically slave labor, forced to operate as the liche's crew by magic or threats, who are in varying degrees of sickness and wasting. The idea isn't that the liche raised an entire "skeleton crew", but that it commandeered a vessel, enslaved its crew, and is now working them to death and simply reanimating any crewmember that dies of fatigue or starvation. The implication is that the crew WILL be entirely undead soon if the PC's don't intervene, and it helps the liche earn "evil points" that will make your players want to take it down all the more. It also explains where a necromancer finds 300-something sailor corpses in the first place.
Yea, that is pretty cool.
Something else about Silent Saturn's idea is the fact the party can't simply blow the ship up at long range without killing the captives too.
Then you have the lich have a contingency that does it anyways and raises the now dead sailors as more undead.
Have the ship itself be a construct with the spell that gives constructs fast healing permanently cast on it -- most ships sink before they are actually destroyed so this will give the ships a means of rising again in a few months, and since the ship is the lich's *insert big Jewish word thingamabob here* he'll be back too...
I rather like the idea that the ship itself gives anyone aboard (alive or undead) some bundle of skills.
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I rather like the idea that the ship itself gives anyone aboard (alive or undead) some bundle of skills.
I like the idea of the ship itself being an animated construct, but I don't see why it would bestow ranks in Profession (sailor) to its crew if it were animated and could thus sail and operate itself. I would think an animated frigate would really just need someone at the wheel to tell it where it's supposed to go, and everyone else is just there for the ride.
If you go the "the crew is in the process of dying and being zombified" route, you could have the liche working on the Animate Objects spell that will allow to ship to sail itself. Once that's cast, the liche would no longer need living crew, and would likely massacre all remaining survivors in order to zombify them. That also creates a ticking clock for your players-- stop the liche now before the prisoners are killed.
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While undead plant creatures aren't common, there's nothing in the rules to forbid using animate dead (or create undead) on dead plant matter (any corporeal creature that isn't already undead, pretty much) so perhaps the ship itself is a gargantuan undead construct, held together by negative energy, and pushing itself through the water with a swim speed.
As for the unusually proficient sailors, perhaps the ship itself is a haunt, and awakens the skeletons/zombies brought aboard with the knowledge of the sailors who died aboard her (even if, in some cases, the mismatch between the sailor and the corpse is profound, such as a gorilla zombie having the personality of the 'ship's boy').
Perhaps the necromancer used create undead or a custom 'awaken undead' spell to create skeletons/zombies with an Int 2 to 6, who retain fragments of their knowledges from in life. Once they are intelligent, he doesn't specifically have to command them, but could simply influence their actions through diplomacy or appeals to greed or intimidation.
Alternately, they are all commanded by their captain, and he commands the captain. The captain is a unique undead, able to command his mindless crew via a command undead SLA that only affects the 'crew' of his ship, and as long as the necromancer has enough control rating to seize control of the undead captain, he ends up in de facto control of the crew (although he has to relay orders through the captain). The intelligent undead captain has the ranks in profession (sailor), etc. and can relay commands to the mindless skeleton crew to perform these acts, using them as his hands.
A magic item, or a special property of the ship itself, could also explain these abilities, although putting it in a magic item runs the risk of the party gaining this ability. Of course, if the magic item is built into the ship, or is the ship itself, or is limited to only work to control undead crewing the ship itself, and can only control 1 HD skeleton crewmen, then it really doesn't matter that much if the PCs get their hands on it, since you can define exactly how it does or does not work (and make it not work for non-evil people, cause a negative level to good people who hold it, like an unholy item, radiate desecrate and a strong aura of evil, require a blood sacrifice every month at the dark of the moon or the undead all turn against you, etc, etc. as you wish, to make it *effectively* unusable by the PCs).
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If SlimGauge is referring to my post, I'm not suggesting the boat be animated but haunted. Sort of like the tried and true intelligent sword that forces its wielder to attack, the boat would animate the dead and control their actions. The boat would be dead in the water or drift until it came aground without a crew. It'd have to wait for some unlucky salvagers or explorers to come aboard before it could "hire" its new crew, perhaps by whispering murderous thoughts into their minds or displaying a limited ability to animate its rigging or other parts of the ship in order to kill its victims. I'm thinking, in a respect, it would be similar to The Overlook Hotel from The Shining.
The lich, being a powerful, intelligent undead spellcaster would be immune to the ship's control and may even have a rapport with it allowing him to communicate with the souls of the dead sailors tied to the vessel.
Now I'm really curious where this is going. Been mulling about seeing if I could do a similar thing with animated objects, which likewise have no skills or mental initiative.
No matter what you go with, I think some intelligent subordinates for the lich are necessary just to mix things up.
For giving dumb undead skills, that follow RAW, you could...
Neptunian Artifact: The frigate houses an ancient orb, that imparts its knowledge onto all moving things, living and unliving. All creatures within 250 feet of the orb are treated as having 5 ranks in profession, sail. Maybe put in some caveat that the orb must be submerged in seawater to function...
That way you could get dead sailors, and have an item that can't really be abused by the PC's (as all it does is replace your actual ranks in sailing with a 5), and doesn't become bank breaking loot since it's an unpricable artifact.
By this is still making up an artifact.
Taught them by rote: Many of the dead crew go about their tasks machine like, having been instructed by the lich himself. They will not waver from their duties, even in the midst of battle or being injured.
Effect: the lich can make a skeleton or zombie a job. The skeleton does the task until destroyed, and gets a circumstance bonus to a single skill equal to half the ranks the lich possesses in the skill to accomplish the task.
Okay, Ghost ship a way better idea.
Players defeat the (supposed) Lich 'controlling' the boat. In reality it's just some poor sap that the ship assigned as captain. The Lich is destroyed and as it crumbles to dust, a raspy voice in a language spoken on the other side of the planet whispers: Finally, I can go home...
Then the weird stuff really starts happening.
If you really want to do some head games you could have the 'spirit of the ship' appear as an old admiral or something, thank the PCs for destroying the creatures aboard the ship, but with a bit of sadness remark that a ship without a crew fades as a body without a soul. Would they, could they, take this old vessel and see her safe back to her home waters (pick some arbitrary location as far away as possible).
With any luck your players will go yahoo new quest and loot. Someone might even be dumb/glorious enough to volunteer to be captain. Then the ship slowly eats away at their bodies and minds.
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In reality it's just some poor sap that the ship assigned as captain.
This is sort of like how the vessel Spelljammer operated in the Spelljammer campaign. The ship was a living creature that produced a pheromone causing living creatures to regard the ship as their new home and one they had no desire to leave. The Spelljammer would then select one creature to serve as its captain and that creature would gain control of the ship until they died or the Spelljammer deemed their actions a threat to its continued existence. Deposed captains were imprisoned in the brig for life but cared for by the vessel out of respect for their service.
I have to admit I LOVE the idea of the ship itself being the main threat. Perhaps the lich and her officers believed they could control it for their own nefarious ends, but the ship was more powerful. The PCs and their allies (who are sailors in the local navy under orders to eliminate the threat the lich and her crew posed) don't realize this until after the battle is over and their dead reanimate several hours later.
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That's what makes it so insidious. If the boat is housing the souls of a hundred or more dead men, it doesn't even need the ability to reanimate the dead after they've been destroyed. It has all the time in the world to acquire a new crew. Rather than have the zombies and skeletons return to unlife a few hours later, let the haunted ship stew for awhile. If the ship isn't in terrible condition, the local navy may claim it for use in the fleet only to find themselves facing the animated corpses of their own countrymen weeks or months later.
This ship of souls could spawn trouble for decades or centuries to come. Even if the thing is set to fire, a beachcomber collecting driftwood or finding a simple belaying pin from the vessel on the shore may be overcome with a sudden urge to salvage the ship and hire a shipwright to rebuild it. As with a ghost, it may require a specific course of action to truly put the souls of the dead sailors to rest.
I tend to do undead-rowed galleys -- they're more manueverable (no need for wind), skeletons can probably handle rowing, and the big problem for galleys (big crew = lots of food and water = short duration) doesn't matter with undead.
Seconded. While it's kind of common to dismiss Galleys, the simple fact is that they were the primary warship operating in the Mediterranean until well into the 1700, and were last used in combat during the Crimean War, in 1854.
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Why is there a discussion about how many zombies and skeletons can be controlled by one BBEG when the intent of all of those zombies and skeletons is nothing more than background decoration? BBEG's don't have to play by the rules, especially when the rules they break don't directly affect the characters.
Why is there a discussion about how many zombies and skeletons can be controlled by one BBEG when the intent of all of those zombies and skeletons is nothing more than background decoration? BBEG's don't have to play by the rules, especially when the rules they break don't directly affect the characters.
One of the virtues, although not everyone might call it that, of 3.x is that everybody plays by the same, or at least similar, rules. Players tend to expect it and often base their estimates of their enemies on it and plan their tactics with it in mind. Ymmv of course.
Velcro, I want to play in YOUR games. o-o
I mean, WTH. That sh-... stuff is awesome.
If the ship has undead "officers" and "bosun's mates" each capable of controlling a handful of lesser undead, the lich merely has to control the officers to control the vessel. That adequately resolves the problem with the lich's span of control. Letting the haunted ship grant nautical memories to all aboard her addresses the skill deficit associated with mindless undead.
I'm reminded of a ghost ship story I once read, in which a submarine's crew is slowly possessed by the spirits of the sub's fallen original crew and captain...
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Or you could just apply the Sea-Sworn Template to your victims and be done with it. This template modifies any target into a cursed undead form that can only survive/function on a boat or in water. It keeps it's skills and picks up a few water based perks but still is basically a zombie.
Take a look at the Pathfinder module Treasure of Chimera Cove for more details but it should give you every thing you need and it comes with several great plot hooks built into it.
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One of the virtues, although not everyone might call it that, of 3.x is that everybody plays by the same, or at least similar, rules. Players tend to expect it and often base their estimates of their enemies on it and plan their tactics with it in mind. Ymmv of course.
I agree with what you are saying, but with regards to what the OP intends to do with all these zombies and skeletons, they are nothing more than background decoration, fluff, story description, and scenery to give the players the impression of much bigger things occurring around them.
So, when directly involved with the PCs (direct combat or controlling minions to battle the PCs) then yes, absolutely, I completely agree that the BBEG should play by the rules. But when everything else around the characters is left to description, the BBEG doesn't need to follow the rules to make the story better. The fact that the BBEG can apparently do all this evil stuff will only reaffirm his evilness and will ensure the PCs know that he is one Bad MOFO.
your skeletons and what not do not have to be mindless undead too you know.
It fits what I have in mind best. I want a horde.
... but with regards to what the OP intends to do with all these zombies and skeletons, they are nothing more than background decoration, fluff, story description, and scenery to give the players the impression of much bigger things occurring around them.
What threw me is that the OP posted in the RULES section of the forums, so I was inclined to give a rules-based answer. This might have gone better in the advice or general discussion section.