Let's say I'm an 11th level fighter with three attacks +11/+6/+1.
Can I full attack and use my first two attacks to swing for damage and my last attack to make a disarm, trip or sunder as part of the attack?
If so do I make that disarm, trip or sunder at my full CMB or at my CMB -10. From my reading of the rules it looks like full CMB?
Thanks,
Shade325
You are correct you can use your 3rd attack for one of those three combat maneuvers at your current base attack bonus, so written CMB -10.
You are correct you can use your 3rd attack for one of those three combat maneuvers at your current base attack bonus, so written CMB -10.
Thanks for the reply. Can you point me in the direction of where you are seeing it would be CMB -10.
This is all I've seen so far in the rules but may have missed something.
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."
It seems the CMB replaces the normal attack bonus of the attack roll which in the case of the third attack would be +1 (plus mods). Does the -10 come from the "take any other penalties that would normally apply to the attack roll." I suppose I could read it this way. Is the second attack a +11 attack with a -5 penalty or a +6 attack? Same goes for the third attack is it a +11 attack with a -10 penalty or a +1 attack?
Sorry for the confusion. Want to understand this.
Thanks,
Wraith428
Sorry not explicitly stated, but common sense and wording "You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack." At the time of your 3rd attack your Attack bonus is +1.
Your character sheet should have the CMB based on your full attack bonus, which is why I said the replacement for the 3rd attack would be at -10, sorry if I caused any confusion.
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I'm having trouble finding where it phrases it this way, but the reduction in BAB is actually a penalty rather than a group of varying bonuses.
So with your example, you don't actually have a BAB of +11/+6/+1; that's just convenient shorthand. You have a BAB of +11, and if you make a full attack you can make an extra attack with a -5 penalty, and another attack at a -10 penalty. Your BAB is still the same (+11), you just accumulate some penalties on the extra attacks.
And since maneuvers incorporate relevant penalties, replacing the third attack of your full attack with a maneuver will still get you that -10 penalty.
I'm having trouble finding where it phrases it this way, but the reduction in BAB is actually a penalty rather than a group of varying bonuses.
So with your example, you don't actually have a BAB of +11/+6/+1; that's just convenient shorthand. You have a BAB of +11, and if you make a full attack you can make an extra attack with a -5 penalty, and another attack at a -10 penalty. Your BAB is still the same (+11), you just accumulate some penalties on the extra attacks.
And since maneuvers incorporate relevant penalties, replacing the third attack of your full attack with a maneuver will still get you that -10 penalty.
^This^
And make sure that you are trying to replace an attack with a Combat Maneuver that replaces an attack... some maneuvers are done as a Standard Action only.
Can I full attack and use my first two attacks to swing for damage and my last attack to make a disarm, trip or sunder as part of the attack?
Disarm or trip, yes, as everyone has said.
As written, sunder, explicitly no. ("as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack")
As intended, sunder, almost certainly yes.
My reasoning is that, back in Beta, Jason Bulmahn posted this for people to test out:
Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer): "Disarm, Sunder, and Trip are standard actions, but they can also be made in place of an attack, during an attack action."
(Very similar to existing Sunder text.)
The next line, though, was this:
"Disarm, Sunder, and Trip can be made as an AoO using these rules"
Which is contrary to how the attack action works. (Attack action not fully understood at the time?)
And a clarification two posts later:
Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer): "You can perform them as a standard action, or you can use them in place of an attack during a full-attack action."
So it seems the intent was NOT for them to be made as part of an attack action, but that they -could- be made as part of an attack action, or in place of any other attack, including AoOs and full attacks.
Not to derail the thread, but if you would like official clarification on Sunder, here is a thread with some FAQ requests.
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While we're on the subject, I'd like to point out some errata that could've been easy to miss:
The trip combat maneuver has been altered such that it is now inherently weapon-based, allowing you to add weapon-specific bonuses (such as enhancement or Weapon Focus) to your roll even if the weapon doesn't have the trip weapon quality. The trip weapon quality's new definition is merely that it lets you drop the weapon instead of falling prone if you fail by 10 or more.* Yes, that means that the trip weapon quality doesn't actually improve your odds of succeeding at a trip maneuver.
Actually Ultimate Combat introduced a couple of "Quick CM" feats for those standard action CMs, like bull rush or dirty trick that allow you to do one of them in place of a melee attack. However you need to use your highest attack for it, so you can only do it once per round, and it has alot of requirements for those feats.
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While we're on the subject, I'd like to point out some errata that could've been easy to miss:
The trip combat maneuver has been altered such that it is now inherently weapon-based, allowing you to add weapon-specific bonuses (such as enhancement or Weapon Focus) to your roll even if the weapon doesn't have the trip weapon quality. The trip weapon quality's new definition is merely that it lets you drop the weapon instead of falling prone if you fail by 10 or more.* Yes, that means that the trip weapon quality doesn't actually improve your odds of succeeding at a trip maneuver.
WHOAH! Source? I want to believe all of this, including the drag/reposition.
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Let's say I'm an 11th level fighter with three attacks +11/+6/+1.
Can I full attack and use my first two attacks to swing for damage and my last attack to make a disarm, trip or sunder as part of the attack?
If so do I make that disarm, trip or sunder at my full CMB or at my CMB -10. From my reading of the rules it looks like full CMB?
Thanks,
Shade325
From the book on combat maneuvers:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
The penalty for that 3rd attack roll is a -10, so you have to take it.
Actually Ultimate Combat introduced a couple of "Quick CM" feats for those standard action CMs, like bull rush or dirty trick that allow you to do one of them in place of a melee attack. However you need to use your highest attack for it, so you can only do it once per round, and it has alot of requirements for those feats.
Which is a shame, because I rather want to see an angry, drunken monk who flurries nothing but dirty tricks for a full round.
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Guess you should follow the blog, then. ;)
On the other hand, it's probably good practice to at least check the FAQ every now and then, and the linked FAQ also links to the blog in question.
But yeah, still kind of hidden.
Doesn't link to THAT part of the blog, yet. That drag/reposition stuff is a full-on new rule.
And I shouldn't follow the blog, the blog should follow me. ;) After all, there are thousands of PF players out there that don't even hang out here online. Requiring that would be folly.
