As per the title, I defer to the wise people of the messageboards to give me some advice on building a society-legal shadowdancer.
My goals: To have a highly combat viable stealthy character that I can also do some roleplaying with. (Our playgroup has alternating GM's, one is highly into combat while the other is more RP focused) I plan to take 5 mixed levels in fighter and rogue until settling into a full 10 levels of shadowdancer. I also plan to take the dervish dance feat, as I'm building the character to have a 20 dex after racial mods. Also, I feel that dancing with your scimitar and the shadows themselves has some nice flavor to it.
My questions:
-What's a good mixture of fighter and rogue, keeping in mind that I'll be progressing 5 levels before starting shadowdancer?
-Apart from the necessary feats, what are some good/optimal paths to take? I was looking into either vital strike+spring attack, or critical focus and full attacks/round while flanking. (I have no experience with either of the two feat paths)
-Are there any other interesting recommendations or ideas from experience or know-how that would help progress this further?
Thanks in advance!
isn't level 15 past society cap?
isn't level 15 past society cap?
Is it? I'm new to organized play. If it is, I'll level it as much as I can until the cap, then play the character in games outside of society play.
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Also, I feel that dancing with your scimitar and the shadows themselves has some nice flavor to it.
My questions:
-Apart from the necessary feats, what are some good/optimal paths to take? I was looking into either vital strike+spring attack, or critical focus and full attacks/round while flanking. (I have no experience with either of the two feat paths)
Sounds like a fun concept!
Note that Vital Strike does not work with Spring Attack. Sure seems like it should, right? But no joy outside of house-rules.
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I'd want 2 levels of Fighter and 3 levels of Rogue, for the 2 bonus feats, +2d6 sneak attack, evasion and first Rogue talent, before moving into Shadowdancer.
Armor Mastery and Weapon Mastery aren't really all that big a deal for a Shadowdancer (you'll want a mithril breastplate anyway, eventually, to be able to use Evasion in medium armor, making the bonuses for Armor Mastery moot), so more than 2 levels of Fighter might not be necessary.
An eventual Fighter 2 / Rogue 7 / Shadowdancer 10 build might work.
Worry less about combat optimization and worry more about what will make your character useful to a team, and not consume too much game mastering time. :)
Agda Haskell is a character I'm building towards Shadowdancer, albeit from a different base.
PFS only goes to level 12, and you only get 4 adventures at level 12 before retirement.
Unless you plan on doing ranged combat, try and keep your STR and DEX even, and avoid Two Weapon Fighting like the plague. Because you're going to be a Shadowdancer without Sneak Attack, about a third of the Rogue talents are less useful to you than you might think.
What If You Only Got One Rogue Talent is where I'm canvassing suggestions for Agda if she gets that far.
What about fighter2, alchemist(vivisection)3? Dex mut, shield and other extracts, and the sneak attack for when you get your permaflank buddy? Then maaybe duelist or fighter again for the last levels?
Sounds like a fun concept!Note that Vital Strike does not work with Spring Attack. Sure seems like it should, right? But no joy outside of house-rules.
Why doesn't it work? More out of curiosity than me questioning your knowledge.
Worry less about combat optimization and worry more about what will make your character useful to a team, and not consume too much game mastering time. :)
Agda Haskell is a character I'm building towards Shadowdancer, albeit from a different base.
PFS only goes to level 12, and you only get 4 adventures at level 12 before retirement.
Unless you plan on doing ranged combat, try and keep your STR and DEX even, and avoid Two Weapon Fighting like the plague. Because you're going to be a Shadowdancer without Sneak Attack, about a third of the Rogue talents are less useful to you than you might think.
Like I said, I have 2 different DM's. One is combat heavy, which is the path I'm going as far as feats. The other is more role play based, which is what I'm building my skills and character back story to. Keeping in mind that I'm using dervish dance (Dexterity instead of strength for attack and damage rolls when wielding a scimitar)strength is completely useless to me. Thanks for the suggested link for rogue talents though.
Anyone else? My build so far looks like this... [Ignore my odd formatting] I have a few feat spots open and I'm deciding what talents to take.
1. Rogue 1
2 Feats, Sneak attack 1d6, Trapfinding
Dodge, Weapon Finesse
2. Fighter 1
1 Feat, 1 Fighter bonus feat.
Dervish Dance, Combat Reflexes
3. Rogue 2
1 Feat, 1 Rogue talent, Evasion
Weapon Focus Scimitar
4. Fighter 2
+1 Ability Score, 1 Fighter bonus feat, Bravery +1,
Mobility
5. Rogue 3
1 Feat, Sneak attack 2d6, Trap sense +1
?????
6. Shadowdancer 1
Hide in plain sight
7. Shadowdancer 2
1 Feat, Evasion, Darkvision, Uncanny dodge
?????
8. Shadowdancer 3
+1 Ability score, Rogue Talent, Shadow Illusion, Summon shadow
9. Shadowdancer 4
1 Feat, Shadow call, Shadow jump 40ft
Critical Focus
10. Shadowdancer 5
Defensive roll, Improved uncanny dodge
11. Shadowdancer 6
1 Feat, Rogue Talent, Shadow jump 80ft
Improved Critical
12. Shadowdancer 7
+1 Ability score, Slippery mind
There are a number of ways you could go here. Take up to four rogue levels. Beyond that, you're hurting your BAB.
Weigh up the perks you can get from your multiclassing.
1st level fighter as your first character level will be a nice boon. Starting at +1 BAB is a great help in acquiring the feats you want asap. If you choose to balance your str and dex scores (which would be a good choice considering your lack of TWF and sneak attack) you could consider taking power attack at first. Your scimitar weilded in two hands will become nearly twice as deadly.
At fighter 3, you can nab weapon training via the "weapon master" archetype. This is a great perk coupled with the gloves of dueling presented in the APG. (Is the APG pfs legal?)
At fighter 4, you can grab weapon specialisation. That's a net +5 to damage assuming you can grab some gloves of dueling. Coupled with 14 str (which you could bump even higher) and power attack a 4th level fighter would deal 1d6+14 on a successful hit, compared to 1d6+3 and 2d6 sneak attack. With a +1 int, human and your favored class bonus in skills you should be able to spread your ranks around and have a highly skilled character, and the extra BAB is a welcome boost.
However, rogue certainly has its perks too. Namely, the rogue talents. If you feel you're going to burn these mainly on feats, the fighter path may be the better choice, but the higher skills, fast stealth and some fantastic archetypes (the bandit and thug spring to mind) make the higher rogue levels worthwhile.
Personally, I'd go 4 or 5 levels of fighter, possibly with a level of rogue at 2nd to bump up your skills. Without your sneak attack progression it feels like the better option. You'll have slightly better damage in the early levels, higher BAB and bonus damage that scales through power attack. With your rogue level, consider the rake archetype to demoralize your foes instead of dealing sneak attack damage. The -2 to attack rolls and saves is a nice defensive measure and will help your caster buddies out.
Check out poison for some nasty stacking of penalties to keep your foes out of the fight, or for some devastating con damage.
Sorry I couldn't throw together a build for you. I'm not too familiar with PFS.
Let's do some (depressing) math.
One die of sneak attack damage costs you 1 BAB and adds +3.5 points of damage when A) flanking someone or B) attacking someone who's flat footed, or C) you're attacking from concealment.
Power Attack costs you an optional -1 to hit, and gives +2 (or +3 if using your scimitar two handed) on every attack you make.
Power Attack + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization (which uses 3 of your six feats you'd get going straight fighter before going to Shadowdancer) gives you +6 damage for a net -1 to hit, on every single attack you make. Getting Fighter Weapon Training on top of this overrides the -1 to hit and gives a net of +7 - the same as you'd get from 2d6 of sneak attack. On every attack you make.
Your skill points for the first five levels are going to suck. That said, from the first level of Shadowdancer on you're going to be getting more skill points than you know what to do with.
PFS scenarios have 3-5 combat encounters per scenario, and 2 noncombat encounters per scenario. The combat encounters do NOT require an excessive degree of optimization to survive. Indeed, excessive combat optimization - beyond what the module calls for - will make the game less fun and enjoyable for you and for everyone else at your table.
The non-combat scenarios tend to rely on the following skills: Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device, Sense Motive. Perception is always useful - but it becomes a class skill at 6th for you.
Blindfighting is probably the go-to feat for PFS play.
When looking at combat optimization, most PFS monsters remain pretty close to the guidelines posted here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html
PFS scenarios are built for a party of 4. When you get to a party of 6, action economy tends to skew heavily in favor of the PCs. This means that your combat-crunchies GM, if faced with a large table, is going to be cranky and upset if you're all decently good at optimization, because he has no leeway to improve the encounter in the module.
(This is a strategic decision by PFS to give a more consistent table experience across the board. It's one I mildly disagree with, but understand why they do it. It's better to have everyone live through a too easy encounter than to have a TPK because the GM decided to add extra NPCs and break encounter balance on a system where everything is reported back and tabulated.)
As to Vital Strike and Spring Attack:
Spring Attack allows you to make an Attack Action at any point in your movement.
Vital Strike requires you make a Standard Attack. The two are not the same, per the official rulings. Vital Strike is, in general, a horrible feat chain
Would you consider using the Ninja alternate for rogue? You'd be delaying Evasion (Shadowdancer gets it) in favor of a (Charisma-based) ki pool, and trading the anti-trap abilities for poison use (meh) and bonus to remain hidden.
The kicker is a Ninja Trick called "Pressure Points," which adds one point of either Strength or Dex damage to each sneak attack; it's a good way of making sneak attack useful after +2d6 damage is insignificant. Shadowdancer isn't going to increase your sneak attack damage, but it IS going to increase the strength damage you can do via your Shadow. (I believe there's a rogue talent now that gives you a ninja trick, but that just seems really... ninja-ey to me.)
So, there's 2/5 levels. Fighter 2 gives you two bonus feats, which is nice: 4/5 levels accounted for. Should the last pre-Shadowdancer level be Ninja (no trace 1, +1d6 sneak attack), Fighter (Armor Training 1) or... Barbarian? No, don't laugh! Barbarian 1 gives you a d12 hit die, fast movement, and a tiny bit of rage. Mostly you won't be using the rage, but maybe sometime you'll need the Con. Obviously, start at Barbarian to max your hit points.
1 Barb1, (weapon finesse)
2 Fighter1, (bonus: dodge)
3 Fighter2, (dervish dance, bonus: combat reflexes)
4 Ninja1, (mobility)
5 Ninja2 (anything)
6+ Shadowdancer
There are lots of useful feats: Toughness will give you (and your shadow) more hit points, Weapon Focus scimitar might be nice, Spring Attack might be useful (although I don't know how it would interact with Stealth/HIPS), extra Ninja Trick for fast stealth or shadowy mirror image or invisibility.
For races, you should consider going small. The bonus to hit and AC is ok, you don't care about the strength penalty, and they both get a bonus to Cha, helping with your ninja ki pool and your shadowdancer supernatural abilities, and also to the UMD check to use Inflict wands to heal your shadow. Their slowness will be offset by fast movement. Gnome would get dancing lights as a Su a few times a day, which is useful in creating shadows if you're in a dark dungeon and everybody has darkvision. Halflings can give up Surefooted to get certain bonuses to stealth and sniping from hidden. Either would be fine.
I recently discovered that in society play, prerequisites for prestige classes are waived, so I can take shadowdancer at any point without taing the required feats or skills. This may cause me to change my build...
@Twigs,
Keeping my strength and dexterity equal is sub par for me, as at second level I'll be picking up dervish dance, completely negating the need for strength. Also, I want to have levels in rogue to have access to rogue skills. (such as disable device, slight of hand, etc) Also, as AdAstraGames pointed out, total optimization would make everyone else have less fun, as I always play at a 6 player table. So while I understand straight fighter or one level of rogue is a better option for combat, I also want to have a lot of use outside of combat. Also, I've been looking at sneaking precision at higher level when I have multiple critical feats.
@AdAstraGames,
I have to say you make an interesting point, so I'll most likely add power attack, weapon focus, and weapon specialization somewhere in the build. I'm actually thinking of ignoring rogue entirely as I don't need to meet the level requirement for shadowdancer. Now I have to completely re-decide on my builds focus. I know that I for sure want to be a rogue, as I enjoy being a sneak. I'm not too huge on sneak attack, so I'd be willing to use an archtype that replaces sneak attack. (if there is one) I also think that dervish dance, paired with a 20 dexterity, would be a good combat option. I've always liked the flavor and abilities of shadowdancer, but I almost feel like it'd be a large commitment toward it unless I do a short dip. I'm thinking I may go rogue 1 ->fighter 1->shadowdancer x. This would allow me to have max shadowdancer at level 12, the society level cap. Rogue 1st level allows me to be the party rogue at first level, and fighter 2nd is where I become online as far as combat with dervish dance. Also, nstead of rogue, I could do a level of arcane trickster for the rogue skills (minus UMD, which confuses me...) and ranged legerdemain, which is interesting to say the least. Keeping this all in mind, any suggestions?
@threemilechild,
I'm more interested in Human, as I like the base speed and lack of any negatives to the class. Also, not too interested in ninja, as I want to have the iconic rogue skill set to be the party rogue, yet still be combat viable with my scimitar.
I recently discovered that in society play, prerequisites for prestige classes are waived, so I can take shadowdancer at any point without taing the required feats or skills. This may cause me to change my build...
I do not think this is correct - can you point to where it says this in the text?
@AdAstraGames,
I have to say you make an interesting point, so I'll most likely add power attack, weapon focus, and weapon specialization somewhere in the build. I'm actually thinking of ignoring rogue entirely as I don't need to meet the level requirement for shadowdancer. Now I have to completely re-decide on my builds focus. I know that I for sure want to be a rogue, as I enjoy being a sneak. I'm not too huge on sneak attack, so I'd be willing to use an archtype that replaces sneak attack. (if there is one) I also think that dervish dance, paired with a 20 dexterity, would be a good combat option. I've always liked the flavor and abilities of shadowdancer, but I almost feel like it'd be a large commitment toward it unless I do a short dip. Keeping this all in mind, any suggestions? I'm thinking I may go rogue 1 ->fighter 1->shadowdancer x. This would allow me to have max shadowdancer at level 12, the society level cap. Rogue 1st level allows me to be the party rogue at first level, and fighter 2nd is where I become online as far as combat with dervish dance.
To the best of my knowledge you don't get to avoid pre-reqs for prestige classes. Please provide documentation for this.
Focus on what aspects of the character's background makes them interesting. With a 6th player table, you're going to be crushing a lot of PFS mods with even sub-optimal characters. Dwarven bards are probably feasible with 6 player tables... :)
What makes Agda interesting isn't her build - it's the story about how she became a Paladin in the first place, and eventually shifted over to Shadowdancer to take the war to the enemy.
I recently discovered that in society play, prerequisites for prestige classes are waived, so I can take shadowdancer at any point without taing the required feats or skills. This may cause me to change my build...I do not think this is correct - can you point to where it says this in the text?
Damn, it says role playing requirements are waived, although my GM specifically said we can waive the requirements. What to do...
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Damn, it says role playing requirements are waived, although my GM specifically said we can waive the requirements. What to do...I recently discovered that in society play, prerequisites for prestige classes are waived, so I can take shadowdancer at any point without taing the required feats or skills. This may cause me to change my build...I do not think this is correct - can you point to where it says this in the text?
Make it a legal build so that you can take it to GenCon or Origins or PaizoCon. Seriously - the fun of PFS play is playing your character with new people. :)
Make it a legal build so that you can take it to GenCon or Origins or PaizoCon. Seriously - the fun of PFS play is playing your character with new people. :)
Aha I'll keep that in mind. Also, you were saying that blind fight is a go to feat, why is that? Also, no power attack or weapon specialization as I plan to have neither a 13 strength or 4 levels of fighter.
Make it a legal build so that you can take it to GenCon or Origins or PaizoCon. Seriously - the fun of PFS play is playing your character with new people. :)
Aha I'll keep that in mind. I wish someone in my area would GM an adventure path. =/
You mentioned earlier that blind-fight was a go to feat for society play; why is that? Have you often found it very useful?
Make it a legal build so that you can take it to GenCon or Origins or PaizoCon. Seriously - the fun of PFS play is playing your character with new people. :)Aha I'll keep that in mind. I wish someone in my area would GM an adventure path. =/
You mentioned earlier that blind-fight was a go to feat for society play; why is that? Have you often found it very useful?
For most of season 1 and season 2, there's one encounter every 2-3 modules where you're fighting something with fog, darkness powers or invisibility.
@AdAstraGames,
I have to say you make an interesting point, so I'll most likely add power attack, weapon focus, and weapon specialization somewhere in the build. I'm actually thinking of ignoring rogue entirely as I don't need to meet the level requirement for shadowdancer. Now I have to completely re-decide on my builds focus. I know that I for sure want to be a rogue, as I enjoy being a sneak. I'm not too huge on sneak attack, so I'd be willing to use an archtype that replaces sneak attack. (if there is one) I also think that dervish dance, paired with a 20 dexterity, would be a good combat option. I've always liked the flavor and abilities of shadowdancer, but I almost feel like it'd be a large commitment toward it unless I do a short dip. I'm thinking I may go rogue 1 ->fighter 1->shadowdancer x. This would allow me to have max shadowdancer at level 12, the society level cap. Rogue 1st level allows me to be the party rogue at first level, and fighter 2nd is where I become online as far as combat with dervish dance. Also, nstead of rogue, I could do a level of arcane trickster for the rogue skills (minus UMD, which confuses me...) and ranged...
This is exactly what I was suggesting. :P In a very roundabout way, of course. You NEED four levels of fighter for weapon specialisation, so rogue 1 fighter 4 is my suggestion. The 1st level of fighter lets you grab power attack early, but in retrospect I suppose sneak attack will make up the difference early on. I retract that statement. I'd look at the rake archetype for replacing sneak attack. It let's you demoralize your foes as a free action and only requires 1 level of rouge.
Alternatively, the thug lets you sicken, but requires 3 levels.
@Twigs,
So while I understand straight fighter or one level of rogue is a better option for combat, I also want to have a lot of use outside of combat. Also, I've been looking at sneaking precision at higher level when I have multiple critical feats.
Perhaps I wasn't clear, but isn't the level cap 12th level? This makes critical feats are a NON OPTION for society play. It caps at level 12, and the lowest critical feat requires BAB +11 which you'll have for a level, ASSUMING you have full BAB (no shadowdancer, no rogue levels). You could not use any critical feats as a rogue shadowdancer. Pushing for Sneaking Precision is a three feet investment that you'll never get to capitalize on.
I agree that you don't want to be short on skills early. It just struck my mind that the rogue isn't proficient with the scimitar though, so you mightn't get to use it off of the bat.
I'd also suggest poison, like folks above did. But I don't REALLY think you need "poison use". That 5% chance to poison yourself is nothing a vial of antitoxin or a scroll of remove poison can't save you from. (Or your friendly neighbourhood cleric!). I'm not sure how the buying of gear and downtime work in PFS, however. Is poison an option?
Poison is sometimes given out as treasure in specific chronicles. It can also be bought; certain classes (Paladins) cannot use poison without repercussions.
@Twigs,
It seems like I'll be going rogue 3/fighter 2, mostly for rogue related skills and what not. Also, as I've said, I have no use for strength other than qualifying for power attack. I'll be using strength as my dump stat, and maxing out my dexterity. As far as critical feats, I plan to play this character more past the current cap, as at some point they'll be adding higher level adventures to society play. If they don't, I can always play the character outside of society play. And I'll take a look at poison. Any suggestions on poisons?