Hi everyone! This thread is about pricing, but to post in this thread, I'll ask that you label your observations as one of the following:
Certain Discrepancy--This is when two identical abilities have different costs, or when an ability that is strictly more powerful has a lower cost.
Eccentricity--This is for cases that are *almost* but not quite 'certain discrepancies'.
Personal Judgment--This is for cases where two abilities seem to be priced strangely with respect to one another but they are not directly comparable, so personal judgment comes into play (or where an ability just seems to cost too much or too little with no good reference point but gut instinct). I'm going to try to limit the number of these that I make.
I'll post my three sets (discrepancies, eccentricities, and personal judgments) as the next three posts. If you have any more thoughts on pricing, please share them below (I'd ask to try to categorize them as one of those three type if you would).
Certain Discrepancies:
Flexible Modifiers (2) or Advanced Modifiers (4) vs Advanced Abilities (4)--This is generally an issue across the board in that buying better ability scores is way cheaper from the "Ability Score Modifiers Trait" list than from the "Advanced Abilities" list. Flexible Modifiers is one of the easiest to see. Compared to Human Heritage, it costs 2 more points while giving you a floating +2 to any ability score you want for half the price of a set bonus to one particular score. This gets worse for 'Advanced Modifiers' which gives the effect of Advanced Abilities taken three times at the cost of just one.
Hardy (1) vs Illusion Resistance (1)--An open-and-shut case. Hardy is strictly better than Illusion Resistance by a wide margin, and since Gnomes have a +2 Con, you could hypothetically take Hardy instead of Illusion Resistance and make a strictly better Gnome for the same price. Hardy has some other issues with other traits too that aren't quite as clear-cut (see below).
Shadow Resistance (2) vs Fiendish or Celestial Resistance (2)--Shadow Resistance gives one less resistance for the same cost. Admittedly it doesn't require being an outsider, but as mentioned in eccentricities, that really has no cost if you were already going to include Darkvision (which a shadowy sort of creature with 'Shadow Resistance' would be likely to have).
Gnome Magic (1) and Svirfneblin Magic (2) vs Spell-Like Ability (varies)--For one point you get Spell Focus(Illusion) and several SLAs. Usually feats that can actually help you in combat cost 2 (like Improved Initiative or Weapon Finesse), so Gnome Magic might be on here even without the SLAs, but it also costs less than the SLAs would alone. For the svirfs, the big-ticket item is constant nondetection, but they also have several useful SLAs that would cost a lot more with the Spell-Like Ability power.
Swim (1) vs Water Child (2)--Swim costs 1 less and gives you twice the bonus to Swim plus a Swim speed (meaning you swim much much faster). Both let you take 10. Water Child lets you pick Aquan as a bonus language. While Swim is not 'strictly' better, it's significantly better, and you can just buy the Linguist Array with the point you saved anyway, thus promoting this from eccentricity due to Swim and Linguist Array together (2) vs Water Child (2).
Slow Base Speed and Fast together (0) vs Normal Base Speed (0)--This admittedly requires Advanced abilities but allows you to wear medium or heavy armor or have high encumbrance without slowing, at no cost. It's probably not actually intended to be allowed though.
Adaptability (1) vs Cave Dweller (2) or Craftsman (1) or Greed (1)--Adaptability gives +3 to any skill of your choice which doubles at level 10 via Skill Focus. This is widely considered to be the equivalent of feats like Alertness that give +2 to two skills and doubles at level 10. Cave Dweller gives +1 to two skills, with limitations, and costs twice as much. Craftsman gives +2 to two skills with limitations and never doubles, while costing the same. Greed is the worst, since its +2 to one skill but only some of the time. See eccentricities below for some other things that Adaptability eclipses (though not as resoundingly).
Eccentricities:
Fey (1) vs Low-Light Vision (1)--Same cost. If fey, you can't receive Enlarge Person or Reduce Person, but you are immune to Charm Person, Hold Person, and Dominate Person, etc, as well as various other well-hidden immunities (for instance you don't rise as a spectre if killed by a spectre). This seems to be a solid gain for no cost.
Monstrous Humanoid (2) or Native Outsider (2) vs Darkvision (2)--Same as Fey vs Low-Light Vision.
Defensive Training, Lesser (1) or Defensive Training, Greater (3) vs Ancient Foe--Lesser Defensive Training gives twice the AC boost for 1/3 the price if you are choosing humanoids. It doesn't give the +2 to grapple CMB, but +2 dodge to AC is way better than +2 grapple CMB (for one thing, +2 dodge gives +2 to CMD for every kind of maneuver). Greater Defensive Training gives +2 AC against everything for the same cost as Ancient Foe gives +2 AC and grapple CMB against one type of creature. Should the cost of grapple bonuses really be that high? Ancient Foe is also very similar to Lesser Defensive Training, so maybe we don't need both.
Defensive Training, Greater (3) vs Natural Armor (2)--Defensive Training, Greater gives twice the AC for 1.5x the price, plus touch AC is more valuable than flat-footed and dodge bonuses always stack, plus it doesn't require Advanced (admittedly, Improved Natural Armor can make the Nat Armor a good deal if you are playing Monstrous)
Hardy (1) vs Fearless (1), Plagueborn (2), Fortunate (4), and Halfling Luck (2)--Hardy grants a +2 to all saves vs spells, spell-likes, and poison. Admittedly this doesn't cover all possible Fear effects (Frightful Presence and other monster abilities), but it's a much larger category at the same cost. Plagueborn costs twice as much and doesn't include all poison, with the diseases and sickened/nauseated not making up for the loss of all spells and spell-likes (so Plagueborn seems to be worse while costing more). Hardy also costs 1/4 the price of Fortunate, while spells, spell-likes, and poison seem to make up closer to half of all saves in most AP installments and PFS scenarios I've seen.
Fey Damage Resistance (3) vs Damage Reduction (4)--Paying more than 4 to upgrade Damage Reduction notwithstanding, when it comes to the basic effect of Damage Reduction (DR 5/magic), far fewer enemies can penetrate Cold Iron DR than can penetrate Magic (almost no monstrous enemies can penetrate cold iron with their natural attacks, for instance, and more NPCs have magical weapons than cold iron). You do have to be a fey to get the cold iron DR, but Fey only costs 1 and is 'free' if you want Low-Light Vision (as seen above). Also Fey Damage Reduction is only Advanced whereas Damage Reduction is Monstrous.
Fly (4) vs Climb and Expert Climber Together (5)--Flying is way better in almost any situation and costs less. The only thing that keeps this from being on the discrepancies list is that you don't have to make Fly checks with Expert Climber, so it may be slightly better if you're in a building and have a poor Fly skill.
Adaptability (1) vs Camoflauge (1) or Rodent Empathy (1) or Sneaky (4) or Sneaky Rider (8) or Underground Sneak (5)--As above, adaptability gives +3 to one skill of your choice which eventually doubles. Camoflauge gives +4 to Stealth in some circumstances. Having restrictions probably isn't worth the +1 bonus, and at level 10 Adaptability is a higher bonus anyway (plus more versatile). Rodent Empathy is the same deal. Sneaky has no limitations and gives +4 to Stealth but costs 4x as much, despite being worse at level 10+. Sneaky Rider is essentially a double cost version of Sneaky that also gives +4 to Ride, for a whopping 8 points (or enough to buy yourself +8 natural armor or have Flight and See in Darkness or be a plant and be immune to mind-affecting and a bunch of other stuff). I mean, I guess this is because it all stacks with Skill Focus, but that's still a huge price to pay.
Hoofed (1) vs Nothing (0)--For one point, you have just lost the ability to wear almost anything on your feet except a few horseshoes. This is probably actually the worst ability in the whole set, but it doesn't quite make it to a discrepancy because I guess you might really want horseshoes that badly for abilities you can't find elsewhere. Still, the trade-off is really against you, and will grow larger and larger as Paizo publishes more foot items and (presumably) not that many more horseshoes, so this really could be free.
Advanced Intelligence (4) vs Skilled (4)--Advanced Intelligence is strictly better due to raising Int skills, giving an extra language, and improving casting classes, unless you dumped Int to a 7 or lower with a 2 + Int modifier skill points per level class (which is the only thing that makes this an eccentricity and not a discrepancy, but it's still a longshot).
Personal Judgments:
Linguist Array (2) vs Standard Array (1)--These have very little effect on any race except an Int-caster. Honestly getting a racial bonus language is more useful than what's on the bonus list, and some races with the 'Linguist Array' can wind up losing to a 'Standard Array' race on that one (Taldan and Chelish humans, particularly, if you play Golarion). Xenophobic is missing out on a language and may not share a common tongue, so that might be worth a point less, though honestly it still seems like very little price to pay to save a point.
Personal Judgments:
Linguist Array (2) vs Standard Array (1)--These have very little effect on any race except an Int-caster. Honestly getting a racial bonus language is more useful than what's on the bonus list, and some races with the 'Linguist Array' can wind up losing to a 'Standard Array' race on that one (Taldan and Chelish humans, particularly, if you play Golarion). Xenophobic is missing out on a language and may not share a common tongue, so that might be worth a point less, though honestly it still seems like very little price to pay to save a point.
In my experience the standard array is better than the linguist array. More to start with is better than fewer to start with and wider options, especially if those wider options are not always available and even then can be mitigated by a rank in linguistics or so. I would say the linguist array is worth 1 point. Or rather, I'd say languages shouldn't even cost racial points and should be set according to the default for the campaign setting.
In my experience the standard array is better than the linguist array. More to start with is better than fewer to start with and wider options, especially if those wider options are not always available and even then can be mitigated by a rank in linguistics or so. I would say the linguist array is worth 1 point. Or rather, I'd say languages shouldn't even cost racial points and should be set according to the default for the campaign setting.Personal Judgments:
Linguist Array (2) vs Standard Array (1)--These have very little effect on any race except an Int-caster. Honestly getting a racial bonus language is more useful than what's on the bonus list, and some races with the 'Linguist Array' can wind up losing to a 'Standard Array' race on that one (Taldan and Chelish humans, particularly, if you play Golarion). Xenophobic is missing out on a language and may not share a common tongue, so that might be worth a point less, though honestly it still seems like very little price to pay to save a point.
It's not an intrinsic property of either the standard or linguist array to get the extra starting language (it just so happens that all the core races with the standard array of language do have a bonus language and humans do not). But the unfortunate thing is that the extra starting language is optional for either array and thus you can wind up, as in core, with a Linguist Array race that has one fewer starting language than Standard Array. It might mean more if you couldn't just take Linguistics and grab any old language. I'd definitely be for collapsing the costs of the language arrays, but I put it in personal opinion because I thought it was debatable. Oh, that reminds me that I missed one (increasing Int vs the human skill point ability). Let's see if I can get it in before edit lock.
EDIT: Made it!
I'll try to link to other pricing threads here as I see them. There's three that I've found so far:
1) A thread that mainly focuses on the skill abilities, though it picks up some more general discussion here
2) A thread mainly focused on Hardy, as seen in the Discrepancy and Eccentricity sections here
3) A thread covering all the saving throw prices other than Hardy and extrapolating to more general costs for save bonuses here
I believe that the bonus feat is being over-valued; that or (the more likely actually) most other abilities are being under-valued. Yes, feats are nice to have, but lets look at some of the feats:
Skill Focus - +3 to a Skill of your choosing (this is actually worth 1 RP if you take Adaptability, also made more useful because of being a prereq for Eldritch Heritage);
Iron Will - +2 to Will; (In comparison to Lucky and Hardy is extremely weak)
Martial Proficiency - Allows proficiency with a martial weapon. (Other races get multiple martial proficiencies for a quarter of the price)
Exotic Proficiency - Allows proficiency with an exotic weapon. (Same as above)
Fleet - Adds a +5 Base speed (Clearly this is half of Fast but 4x the cost)
Improved Initiative - +4 to initiative (Or get it for half the cost as Quick Reactions)
This really could go on for a very long time, but hopefully you see my point.
While I'll admit that variability is a powerful option, it's not always a worthwhile option when everything is variable (via making your own race). Variability grants customization which in turn can be used to optimize, but it on its own does not boost the power level.
Personal Judgments:
Linguist Array (2) vs Standard Array (1)--These have very little effect on any race except an Int-caster. Honestly getting a racial bonus language is more useful than what's on the bonus list, and some races with the 'Linguist Array' can wind up losing to a 'Standard Array' race on that one (Taldan and Chelish humans, particularly, if you play Golarion). Xenophobic is missing out on a language and may not share a common tongue, so that might be worth a point less, though honestly it still seems like very little price to pay to save a point.
I'm kind of pissed that they made languages cost racial points at all. My group has pretty much ignored the language limits by race for as long as I can remember.
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Regarding Flexible Modifiers, looking at the sample races I don't think it actually offers floating stat bonuses like Human Heritage. I think the way it works is you get +2 to two stats (they can be both physical, both mental, one from each, etc.) with no penalty, but it's set in stone for that particular race as opposed to being the player's choice. For example, every Lizardfolk would get +2 STR and +2 CON.
I think it makes more sense that way, though the initial description isn't all the clear.
The Skill bonus (+2 to one skill) seems a bit expensive, but I'm not too sure. It's not quite a feat, but costs as much as the +1 bonus to all saves (halfling luck) and twice as much as the +2 bonus to all relevant saves (hardy) (though that is an exaggeration, there are saves that are relevant but not covered by hardy).
The elven immunities cost too much. It's immunity to sleep (which is a few spells and abilities, not usually among the more powerful or overused choices) as well as +2 to one single school of magic. Surely that's not as useful as +2 to most saves in the game.
It seems (and I know this has been said before) that many abilities were assigned costs that made sure the core races all got the same score, not costs that are balanced.
Now that I think of it, I might even say that a -2 cha is less of a penalty than a -2 to most other abilities, though without using half points, such differences will probably be hard to implement.
Maybe we do need half points. Or double the point cost across the board, double the point allowances across the board, and then rebalance the point costs with these pseudo-halfpoints in mind.
But this sort of pricing reminds me too much of a horrible teacher I had, who'd check all tests to see which answers were answered wrong by the most people to assign those the most points, so the grades were as low as possible. That stirs bad memories and I ask Paizo not to stir bad memories. In the same vein, I ask Paizo not to use the word "spatula" in any of their publications, since there has been an incident.... I don't want to talk about it.
Here's another:
Sprinter (1 RP): +10 ft. move speed only while charging, running or withdrawing.
Fast (1 RP): +10 ft. move speed.
These two abilities are on the same page. They're almost right next to each other.
Hmm, that's a point. Are advanced abilities supposed to get a 'discount' for being beyond the reach of standard races?
Hmm, that's a point. Are advanced abilities supposed to get a 'discount' for being beyond the reach of standard races?
I probably wouldn't phrase it that way. Rather, if you're allowing Advanced and Monstrous races in your game, you've accepted that there will be fewer restraints on what the PCs can do starting at level 1.
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Adding some more links--
4) and 5) here and here discuss Hooved pricing.
6) This thread starts with a discussion of shoehorning to make the core races all 10 and goes on to include a good amount of discussion, analysis of costs, and some of the best designer feedback on the playtest board so far.
I'll strive to keep good scoops in this thread on other threads with interesting discussions involving ability costs--if anyone wants to help, just start linking more of them up here.
Please keep in mind that even on seemingly identical abilities, things like additional restrictions or it being on a higher tier might have an affect on the cost.
Something might be cheaper, but come with restrictions, while its counterpart may cost more, but have no restrictions, for example.
The size trait, small should probably cost something. Compared to the medium size trait, the mechanical positives are
+ 4 stealth
+1 AC
+1 to HitThe mechanical negatives are
-1 to CMD
-1 to CMBNormally + 4 to stealth costs 4 rp (Sneaky, skill and feat abilities), +1 to AC costs 2 rp (Natural Armour, defense racial ability). There are no cost examples that I spotted for the +1 to Hit and the reduction in CMD/CMB. However, the +1 to AC and +1 to Hit are a fair tradeoff for the CMD/CMB penalties - which leaves the very expensive stealth bonus for free...
And the fact that all their weapons do a less damage and that they can only carry 1/4 of the weight. (While some things are smaller for halflings, some aren't such as spellbooks, potions, and oddities such as ink. Some things are odd in that they weigh half as much (such as armor) instead of a quarter.
I believe that the bonus feat is being over-valued; that or (the more likely actually) most other abilities are being under-valued. Yes, feats are nice to have, but lets look at some of the feats:
Iron Will - +2 to Will; (In comparison to Lucky and Hardy is extremely weak)
Stubborn is better comparison for Iron Will: 2 abiliies: +2 will save and reroll save.
Please keep in mind that even on seemingly identical abilities, things like additional restrictions or it being on a higher tier might have an affect on the cost.
Something might be cheaper, but come with restrictions, while its counterpart may cost more, but have no restrictions, for example.
Yep, that's why I left out the Sprinter vs Fast that Umbral Reaver mentioned above. Unless I messed up, my analysis should only include powers across categories if the ability from the "weaker" category was better.