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I've skimmed through the playtest, some things spring to mind immediately.
1. I love that you can make advanced and monstrous races. I really like those options.
2. Constructs and undead don't have a constitution score which creates a problem at character creation. They have 5 ability scores instead of 6. Some kind of solution has to be found for this, right?
I think they pay 0 for their constitution, since they are treated as having a constitution of 10.
Humbly,
Yawar
Director of Games
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On an initial read-through, only humanoid races are permissible? So, octopodes, flumphs, pseudodragons, blink dogs, and leng spiders are right out with the "Advanced" race guide?
Let me just comment on this real quick. There are a lot of mechanical issues with playing extremely non-humanoid races. What magic item slots do you have? How do you price out the various limbs? How do you deal with some of the rather powerful inherent type bonuses? The problem comes down to one of space. We have X number of pages to allocate to this system and during design, we realized that building all of these options into the system was just not in our space budget. They are a little to complicated to explain and still give a robust and balanced system.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
On an initial read-through, only humanoid races are permissible? So, octopodes, flumphs, pseudodragons, blink dogs, and leng spiders are right out with the "Advanced" race guide?
On the other hand, once the final rules are released those would be perfect areas for 3PP to expand.
The costs are hugely off.
I know you guys tried to make all CRB races at 10. But it just doesn't work out.
Look at the Dwarf. Hardy is 1pt while Gnome Luck is 2pts?
Look at the Dwarf and the ton of abilities he has which "happen" to be 1 pt so he works out.
And then look at the Human. Especially SKILLED. It costs as much as being able to fly and gives what? +1 skillpoint. Unless you dump Int even the Advanced Intelligence costs 4 points while also adding 1 skillpoint. Not to mention the Skillbonuses (knowledge etc pp) and the increased DC for Wizards, Witches and variant Sorcerers.
Do you seriously expect anyone to buy Skilled when Advanced Intelligence is available?
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This really screws of the balance. A human with the standart abilitiy plus either flight or advanced intelligence (depends on whether you make a wizard or not) is just so much superior to the normal human with all but obvious choices.
The costs are hugely off.
I know you guys tried to make all CRB races at 10. But it just doesn't work out.
Look at the Dwarf. Hardy is 1pt while Gnome Luck is 2pts?
Look at the Dwarf and the ton of abilities he has which "happen" to be 1 pt so he works out.And then look at the Human. Especially SKILLED. It costs as much as being able to fly and gives what? +1 skillpoint. Unless you dump Int even the Advanced Intelligence costs 4 points while also adding 1 skillpoint. Not to mention the Skillbonuses (knowledge etc pp) and the increased DC for Wizards, Witches and variant Sorcerers.
Do you seriously expect anyone to buy Skilled when Advanced Intelligence is available?
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This really screws of the balance. A human with the standart abilitiy plus either flight or advanced intelligence (depends on whether you make a wizard or not) is just so much superior to the normal human with all but obvious choices.
Remember Advanced is only for advanced and Monstrous creatures (higher RP allowed; Standard can't choose Advanced). Humans are Standard built.
The costs are hugely off.
I know you guys tried to make all CRB races at 10. But it just doesn't work out.
Look at the Dwarf. Hardy is 1pt while Gnome Luck is 2pts?
Look at the Dwarf and the ton of abilities he has which "happen" to be 1 pt so he works out.And then look at the Human. Especially SKILLED. It costs as much as being able to fly and gives what? +1 skillpoint. Unless you dump Int even the Advanced Intelligence costs 4 points while also adding 1 skillpoint. Not to mention the Skillbonuses (knowledge etc pp) and the increased DC for Wizards, Witches and variant Sorcerers.
Do you seriously expect anyone to buy Skilled when Advanced Intelligence is available?
.
.
.
This really screws of the balance. A human with the standart abilitiy plus either flight or advanced intelligence (depends on whether you make a wizard or not) is just so much superior to the normal human with all but obvious choices.
I agree with that. Not all standard races are 10. The Half-Orc is wrong with the points you gave them already. He should be 11 for Darkvision.
Dwarves are clearly more powerful then their counterparts, putting their abilites cheaper just because is not a good way to deal with it.
Skilled is indeed crappy in cost, as is fly and specially spell resistance, it being cheaper then a feat just doesn't sit well.
My proposition is to not be afraid to make the standard races with diferent points, they are not equal, nor should they be.
My initial thoughts:
In language part standard array should alow option for replacing common with undercommon for races living in darklands.
Elemental Resistance should not be limited to outsiders - any race with ties to elements should be able of selecting it: fire gnomes, ice dwarves, storm elves, etc.
I find it strange that any race can get +2 racial bonus to all saving throws for 4 RP but only halflings can get +1 racial bonus to all saving throws for 2 RP.
Poison resistance seems off - no other ablity granting saving throw bonus scales with HD. Not to mention that +1/HD for mere 1 RP is not much at 1st level but very much at 10th...
If there is Skeletal DR there could be DR 5/slashing and DR 5/piercing as well. All should be available not only to undeads but to constructs or half-constructs/undeads made of certain materials.
Spell-like ability should give multiple spells or multiple uses per day when 0th level spell is selected.
I was hoping for a slightly more GURPS-like approach, where there'd be a point value for just about ANYTHING you wanted to do. Instead, I get the already-made racial abilities cut-and-paste from the book with a point value attached. For example, why are energy resistances put into categories like Celestial and Shadow? Or Elf Immunities even put in there at all? Instead, make a 1 RP ability for immunity to sleep, and a 1 RP ability for +2 to saves against a school of magic.
Also, I plan on ignoring all of the non-categorical (Standard, Advanced, Monstrous) requirements for the racial abilities, don't bother putting those in IMO. Halfling Luck is just +1 to saves, even if you want to give it to an elf sub-race of your making. It should still cost the same.
EDIT: I think I'll go through this playtest and make list of things that should be separated from each other. For example, Slow shouldn't automatically allow medium races to ignore encumbrance.
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I think it's really strange that many of the abilities just let me create a different version of an existing race. Why do so many require a subtype? Why can't I have a lucky race that isn't a type of halfling, or a race with ferocity that isn't an orc? Why can only humans be skilled, and why does that cost SO much?
I know when I use these rules, I'll be ditching most of the subtype requirements, cause I want to make new races, not alternate versions of existing ones.
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To be honest Paizo, I think you guys need to go back to the drawing board with this one, because there's one extremely obvious flaw with this entire rules set; it is completely designed around keeping an illusion that the seven core races are perfectly balanced with one another. This has been stretched to the point where you're charging racial points for LANGUAGES, of all things. Languages are not and will not ever be a major portion of the game for 83% of the player base for simplicity's sake; if the GM want's something to be mysterious, it's written / spoken in a language that the PCs cannot understand. If it's important information, it's written / spoken in a language everyone can understand. That rule is contrived and pointless.
On top of that, there are major inconsistencies within the race building guide. Here are some glaring ones:
#1 - Humans, who by their very definition are supposed to be the Marios of the RPG world, have almost a half a dozen traits that can ONLY be given to humans or half-human creatures. That breaks the entire philosophy behind humans, in my opinion.
#2 - Traits like Gnome Magic prove how broken this system is. Gnome Magic is a single trait that provides benefits that would cost a humanoid (human) race 7 rp (4 for the Bonus Feat to pick up Spell Focus - Illusion and 3 for three uses of a spell-like ability) for 1 rp. In addition to that blasphemy, no other race can even mimic that effect, because bonus feats are strictly limited to humans, and the only other feats specifically on the list are Weapon Finesse (advanced only) and Skill Focus (human only).
#3 Halflings are charged for three separate skills THREE TIMES as if they were all equal in power. That is laughable, really. I don't think anyone would argue that Climb is anywhere as useful as Acrobatics or Perception. Even back when Pathfinder was rebuilt in Core, people were complaining about the Halflings being mechanically weak and pretending that it's not true by charging 2 points for Acrobatics is silly.
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Now that I've complained for a bit, here are my suggestions:
#1 - My first suggestion is to remove the association between the maximum number of rp you plan on spending (racial tiers) with the abilities themselves. By racial tiers, I am referring to Standard, Advanced, and Monstrous. While I think those are good names for point milestones (Standard is 10, Advanced is 20, Monstrous is 30), I think it makes more sense to make traits that you want to be more for Advanced and Monstrous more expensive rather than pooling them off into their own categories.
#2 - My second suggestion is to cut away all of the special little packages that you're giving your core races for the sake of equality. The fact remains that it's the package (or lack thereof in the case of the halfling) and not the individual abilities themselves that balance out a race. I've already pointed out Gnome Magic as a culprit, and to be honest, only the human and the gnome suffer from this. I think the Paizo designers need to wake up, accept that the core races aren't equal just like you did with the Bestiary Races, and build a system that works instead of enforcing a system that sticks to your fairy tale idealism. In the long run, things like Gnome Magic and human-only options will only make it harder to build races, not easier, for the same reason that there's currently a huge rift between the Bestiary races and the Core races; because there are so many more perks to being core that it's disgusting. I thought the entire purpose of the Advanced Race Guide was to level the playing field a little between races.
#3 - Instead of being a set number, the tiers should be a range. Standard should be something like 10 - 14, for example, because you've already stated that Drow, Aasimar, and Humans are all roughly the same power level, even though a Drow is a 14 point race, an Aasimar a 13, and the human a 10.
#4 - Assuming that anyone agrees with anything I say in this post/rant, then the most important thing that can be done is to give more special options. For example, for a bonus feat, if you decide to give half of the benefit of an existing feat, then there should be a special price for that or something. The system needs to be designed to hit a lot of areas, and the way it's built so far, the system will feel very restricted once the novelty wears off.
tldr; ditch the favoritism for your core races in the building process and stop pretending that their racials are perfectly balanced against each other. As many optimizers continue to prove, it's the some of the parts and not the individual abilities that determine how balanced something is, and by trying to strangulate the optimizers, you're limiting the creative people.
To be honest Paizo, I think you guys need to go back to the drawing board with this one, because there's one extremely obvious flaw with this entire rules set; it is completely designed around keeping an illusion that the seven core races are perfectly balanced with one another.
On top of that, there are major inconsistencies within the race building guide.
This. This to the 10th power.
As Golden-Esque said, no more packages, outside of creature type. Nothing should be labeled "elf" or "dwarf" or whatever. Abilities should just be generic abilities that you can give to any race. Only the points should matter, and everything should be bought individually (2 cantrips 1/day each costs this, a +2 bonus versus whatever costs this, etc).
A functional racial creation system has to be 100% generalized or you're not actually creating new races.
As Golden-Esque said, no more packages, outside of creature type. Nothing should be labeled "elf" or "dwarf" or whatever. Abilities should just be generic abilities that you can give to any race. Only the points should matter, and everything should be bought individually (2 cantrips 1/day each costs this, a +2 bonus versus whatever costs this, etc).
A functional racial creation system has to be 100% generalized or you're not actually creating new races.
I think you can even afford to lose creature type.
I think you can even afford to lose creature type.
Well, you have to have at least something for creature type, because it's a necessary game mechanic (favored enemy, bane weapons, hold person/monster, etc).
I think you can even afford to lose creature type.Well, you have to have at least something for creature type, because it's a necessary game mechanic (favored enemy, bane weapons, hold person/monster, etc).
Oh, never mind, I thought you were talking about racial traits having requirements based on creature type.
Oh, never mind, I thought you were talking about racial traits having requirements based on creature type.
Oh goodness no. That's precisely what I'm against. :)
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On an initial read-through, only humanoid races are permissible? So, octopodes, flumphs, pseudodragons, blink dogs, and leng spiders are right out with the "Advanced" race guide?Let me just comment on this real quick. There are a lot of mechanical issues with playing extremely non-humanoid races. What magic item slots do you have? How do you price out the various limbs? How do you deal with some of the rather powerful inherent type bonuses?
I may be wrong, but I think most people want the look of those creatures rather than super special abilities, so that takes care of the last one.
For the others: Simply giving a nod towards a need to pay more to have certain types of equipment modified for that race's use could help. And some of the special limb and body type work already has precedence in the form of Eidolon rules.
People that want strange races are most likely willing to give up those slots just so they can have that race. I know when I finally got to play a tiefling, I was happy just to get to play a tiefling with hooves and horns even if it meant that I couldn't use boots or that I would need to get headgear modified.
I mean we already have support for centaurs and it's noted that they can't use boots. Why not have half-human/half-snake people possible, or other body types that would logically be giving up magic item slots for those willing to give them up?
People that want strange races are most likely willing to give up those slots just so they can have that race. I know when I finally got to play a tiefling, I was happy just to get to play a tiefling with hooves and horns even if it meant that I couldn't use boots or that I would need to get headgear modified.
Actually, you could take that a step further and create nonhumanlike gear. As in, races creating magical items that have different anatomical requirements...magic horseshoes instead of magic boots, jewelry for horns that acts like a helm, a chainmail "sleeve" designed for a serpent body, and so on and so forth. :)
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People that want strange races are most likely willing to give up those slots just so they can have that race. I know when I finally got to play a tiefling, I was happy just to get to play a tiefling with hooves and horns even if it meant that I couldn't use boots or that I would need to get headgear modified.Actually, you could take that a step further and create nonhumanlike gear. As in, races creating magical items that have different anatomical requirements...magic horseshoes instead of magic boots, jewelry for horns that acts like a helm, a chainmail "sleeve" designed for a serpent body, and so on and so forth. :)
I wouldn't have any problem with it, though if the space reason comes into play again I'd be fine with a simple flat additional cost for equipment specific to that race or just simply saying "races with weird anatomy need their own equipment that standard humanoids can't use" and vice versa.
I mean I don't think anyone really expects a flumph or a hanar to be able to wear the elf's old chain shirt anyway, or the other way around. :) All of that could be settled in a single sidebar in the appropriate page.
Back to your solution, again there's precedence for it, and it's even covered in the playtest document itself:
Quadruped: Members of this race use weapons and armor as if they were Medium(instead) of Large.
No mention (or worry or extra wordcount) over whether or not centaurs need to hunt for special centaur-shaped armor. Why not take that approach with the other non-biped-standard builds?
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Also have to agree that building the system towards making the core races come out even tens hurts cost balance. I really don't think anyone reasonable is going to be upset if it turns out one race has an 8 while another has a 12 as long as the ability costs are solid.
And a lot of these abilities really need to be divorced from racial subtypes and creature types. Locking a lot of these abilities into having to be a specific type runs counter to the idea of encouraging people to create their own races in a lot of ways, especially if they're rooted in someone's notions of how the game world should work, which shouldn't even be applying to other peoples' homebrewed worlds or races. Right now Tiny plant people aren't possible, and the benefits of Elven Magic(needs a racially neutral name) are locked out for any race that isn't elven, even in settings without elves.
Also have to agree that building the system towards making the core races come out even tens hurts cost balance. I really don't think anyone reasonable is going to be upset if it turns out one race has an 8 while another has a 12 as long as the ability costs are solid.
Someone else on the forum (I wish I could remember who) suggested having a "point range" for balanced races.
Standard PC Race: 8-13 points
Advanced Race: 16-22
Monster Race: 25-35
All the more powerful abilities would have their costs raised, thus eliminating categories. You would just have what your race can afford, and what it can't.
I vote for Umbral Reaver's idea of having a race's cost set in character points.