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Hi there,
The lovely Jameena Al'Qadr, divine warrior of Sarenrae, has for some time been part of the adventureing group known as the Sand Stalkers, who have recently succesfully defeated the infamous Carrion King in his mountain stronghold. However, Jameena is finding it increasingly difficult to keep the Sand Stalkers in good health. So she would like some advise from the wise and knowledgeable people of this illustrious forum.
OOC: Jameena here (full stats in profile) is a 7th level vanilla paladin and the main healer for a PbP group running through a modified version of Legacy of Fire here on the boards. I have limited experience playing a healer, and would like a few tips on how to make her better at her job.
The other Sand Stalkers:
Eli - Rogue 3 / Bard 2 / Free Hand Fighter 2
Quzman - Ranger 7
Dumah - Wizard (Evoker) 7
Tessara - Witch 7, replacing Ty, a recently deceased Archery fighter.
The challenges so far:
* Keeping the hp healing flowing fast enough through channels and Lay on Hands to keep people on their feet
* Dealing with poison
* Dealing with ability drain/ability dmg, either as a result of poison or other other special attacks
* Dealing with a possible curse
* Being unable to save the archer from dying due to bad rolls on a save-or-die (Phantasmal killer)
Potential future challenges:
* All of the above
* Level drain
* Paralysis
* Blindness/deafness
* Other nasty debuffs
* ?
What I'm looking for advice on:
* Gear selection, including scrolls, wands and potions
* Spell selection
* Future feat/skill selection
* Tactics and strategy - preperation, in-combat, after-action
* What to delegate - how can the other team members help out
Thank you in advance for the help.
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Take Indomitable Mount as your next feat (assuming you already have Mounted Combat), jack Ride to maximum ranks, and buy a Turquoise Sphere Ioun Stone (to be kept in a Wayfinder for the Resonance effect). Learn the Animal Companion and mounted combat rules inside and out, raise your mount's INT to 3 and expand its feat options.
...why?
Because your party appears to lack melee muscle. You is it.
So: kick even more booty in battle, and keep the monsters off your buds.
More: Tell the rogue and the wizard to jack their Use Magic Device and start UMDing Cure and Remove wands and scrolls. Inform them that the best use of your Lay on Hands is to heal your wounds as Swift actions after you jump right into the middle of your opponents and wail the tar out of them.
I'm not sure if Legacy of fire has a lot of dungeons or other places where a mount would have problems going. If it doesn't, the above is an option. If it does, well, here is my idea:
Hmm, I haven't tried a paladin before, so consider the below simply possible options:
Healing: This should be a team effort, really. Every member of the party except the wizard can use a wand of cure wounds. The bard's UMD is pretty low, but the witch can compensate, and should have wands of both spells on her list and not on it. The ranger should have enough ranks in heal to handle poisons (either you or s/he should have the delay poison spell) and diseases. As for you, you have lesser restoration as a 1st level spell, and preparing one is seldom a bad idea - until you get a wand of it, at least.
Gear: With your strength I'd suggest you aim for a mithral breastplate - it is lighter and does not slow you down when you have to walk, but with your current stats that's not an urgent matter. Considering that you have a few useful lvl 1 spells (lesser restoration being a prime example, and very useful for a healer) a pearl of power or two will be quite useful. Finally, a belt of dexterity might also be a good purchase, since that you mostly use dexterity for your fights - since your armor is +1, its maximum dexterity bonus is 1 higher than regular.
Tactics: There's nothing unusual there. Use your bow to soften melee enemies if you see them from afar, in combat try to hold them off the mages. I imagine your evoker likes to handle hordes and you and the ranger team up on the big ones (as apparently you've both taken outflank); the witch also seems to have a bit of firepower and control spells present. Considering that neither you nor the ranger are very good at tanking (AC 22-3 and 1d6+4 damage is not very good at that level), perhaps they should prepare a summon or two as well. 1d3 celestial crocodiles won't stop the baddies, but might buy you a little time (not to mention block terrain, possibly trip an enemy or two, etc.
Feats: If you want to be more dangerous in melee (and why shouldn't you?) do take a look at Piranha strike from the SRD, since you have dervish dance it should work for scimitars as well. It's basically power attack for light weapons, and imo has a very nice feel for a dervish of Sarenrae. The more enemies have to worry about you, the less time they can devote to your friends. You can use feats to give yourself more lay on hands, channel or mercy, but I'm really not sure it's worth it - except possibly for the mercy, so you can remove more debuffs.
BTW, your character's alignment is listed as neutral in the profile. I imagine that was a typo ;) .
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(Browsing stats, which I didn't do before....) ....I notice that your equipment is rather behind what's average in PFS, so retract some of my purchase advice in the last post.
Idea: take Quick Draw at 9th, and spend accumulating money on a +2 Light Quick Draw Shield -- this will up your AC +3 by letting you use a shield while Dervish Dancing. (It'll also let you snap off a shot via bow with a left-over iterative attack if your first scimitar attack drops the opponent and no one else is within melee.)
You also need a DEX belt more than just about anything I can think of, as you're still getting only +3 off your primary stat at 7th level -- and that's significant because you're using it for attack, damage and AC.
Thanks for the feedback so far. A few quick comments:
* I've picked Weapon bond over mount, so no combat buddy. However, the ranger should summon a new companion soon to replace his dead wolf, so some of that advice might apply there.
* I'm aware that party composition and the builds of the other players (and mine for that matter) are not exactly optimized. Neither are our combat tactics, to be frank. There are RP reasons for that, and it goes a long way to keep things...interesting. And believe me, asking them to hang back while I engage the baddies is NOT an option - I've tried that :-).
* Not sure if the GM will allow Piranha strike, but it is certainly a no-brainer if he will. Enforcer is also high on the list of options, due to the Blade of Mercy trait.
And while I appreciate the advice on becoming a more effective fighter (Sarenrae knows I need that too), I'd like to focus on the healer role mainly. Keep it coming...
I thought you had a camel companion :) huh. Anyway, check with your DM how extra channel works for you. It states that the character can use channel 2 more times per day, but as "special" it states that a paladin with channel energy can use LoH 4 more times per day, but only to channel positive energy.
If it means that a paladin with channel and LoH gets 2 more channels AND 4 more LoHs (it sounds feasible, considering that it doesn't mention paladins get this instead of the normal effect), I think it might be ok for you. I'm a bit meh about it because your paladin is already a decent healer and nearly everyone in that group can pitch in with heals - it's fighting where she's lackluster.
The challenges so far:
* Keeping the hp healing flowing fast enough through channels and Lay on Hands to keep people on their feet
If more than one person is injured, channelling is more efficient. Ideally if you are doing this in combat then you will need the Selective Channelling feat, but it's not essential if you leave the healing until after the fight.
* Dealing with poison
You have a mercy for that.
* Dealing with ability drain/ability dmg, either as a result of poison or other other special attacks
You have lesser restoration as a first level spell. Get scrolls, potions or a wand of it, it's the best cure-all if you don't have quite the right spell prepared (although scrolls help with that too). Scrolls will also have to be your recourse for restoration and other higher level cures you don't get as mercies or spells until higher levels. Scrolls aren't great value but they give you access to the spells with a fair chance of success until you are high enough level to get the spells.
* Dealing with a possible curse
Your wizard will get this spell before you do, so delegate it! He can carry around a scroll of it easily enough.
* Being unable to save the archer from dying due to bad rolls on a save-or-die (Phantasmal killer)
In all honesty there is not a lot you can do about this other than advise him to get a cloak of resistance.
Potential future challenges:
* Level drain
* Paralysis* Blindness/deafness
Scrolls of restoration, remove paralysis and remove blindness/deafness are going to have to be your fall-back until you get the spells.
* Other nasty debuffs
Fortunately, you get mercies, you just have to pick the right ones.
What I'm looking for advice on:
* Gear selection, including scrolls, wands and potions
* Spell selectionSee above for these.
* Future feat/skill selection
Extra Mercies would be very useful to you. Otherwise, concentrate on improving your smitiness - it's your biggest advantage in combat, and you will NEED to take down foes fast.
* Tactics and strategy - preperation, in-combat, after-action
It's been said that healing in combat means you are doing the combat wrong, and to a certain extent that is true: you are a front-line fighter, you should be bashing the enemy down not propping the rest of the party up. A paladin-healer should care for the injured after the fight, not during it save in absolute emergencies. If a foe had one of the party down to where another hit will kill them, there are two options:
1) Heal the party member so they can take another blow
2) Kill the foe before it can attack again
Only use option 1 if option 2 is not possible at all.
Prepare by making sure everyone has thought to bring potions, scrolls etc to heal themselves if the going gets tough in a fight. It's the same for action economy and your paladin is best off for the party attacking rather than healing. Make sure that 'squishy' characters are protected and that foes are dealt with sensibly.
After action, channelling can be used to cure the whole party, as can wands. Scrolls can be broken out for serious effects.
* What to delegate - how can the other team members help out
Your ranger friend can also heal with wands, scrolls etc. so make sure he has them - especially as you might be the one that needs healing.
The wizard should be handling curses, not you - make sure he buys a few scrolls and adds one to his spell book.
Your witch should likewise be handling curses and has the potential to do some of the healing too. Make sure they know this is a shared responsibility.
I thought you had a camel companion :) huh. Anyway, check with your DM how extra channel works for you. It states that the character can use channel 2 more times per day, but as "special" it states that a paladin with channel energy can use LoH 4 more times per day, but only to channel positive energy.
If it means that a paladin with channel and LoH gets 2 more channels AND 4 more LoHs (it sounds feasible, considering that it doesn't mention paladins get this instead of the normal effect), I think it might be ok for you. I'm a bit meh about it because your paladin is already a decent healer and nearly everyone in that group can pitch in with heals - it's fighting where she's lackluster.
Yeah, the camel is just a plain 'ol riding animal, not a bonded mount.
Extra Channel provides two extra channels whether you are a paladin, cleric or oracle of life. The wording is just a bit clunky because paladin channels are powered off Lay on Hands uses.
And I appreciate that you think she's a decent healer. She was specifically built for this role, since the recruitment called for a healer, not a tank or damage dealer. In retrospect, I probably would have built her a bit differently, but she is what she is now.
To give some examples of things I'm looking for:
- I never considered to bring scrolls or potions of lesser restoration, delay poison etc. Our wizard came very close to dying due to CON dmg poison, and I've repeatedly used all of my spell slots on lesser restoration to heal multiple cases of ability dmg. Pearls of power are definitely high on my wishlist to bolster my limited number of daily spells.
- A lot of nasty conditions I simply have no way of dealing with. How do we - as a group - deal with this when we are stuck in the middle of a dungeon with no access to a temple or shop? What do we absolutely need to buy to improve our ability to keep everyone in the fight?
[lots of good stuff]
Thanks.
A follow-up question:
- Mercies: Assuming my current selection can't be changed, which ones will be most useful to pick up (possibly with Extra Mercy)?
I have by no means optimized my Paladin for healing, I'm the party tank, but I've also become the party healer simply by keeping my UMD maxed and carrying a couple of wands.
Do you have the other core books? (i.e. Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, etc.) Some of these have Healer Paladin Archetypes. They may take away from some of your 'battle'-type effects, but boost your healing ability. Specifically, check the Advanced Players Guide and Hospitaler. It changes your channel energy ability, and gives you an Aura of Healing at 11th level instead of Aura of Justice. I know you're already into the game, but maybe if its been a big deal for your group and you make a good case your GM will let you adjust??
Otherwise, I would choose your feats to boost your mercies and healing. Extra Channel and Extra Lay on Hands are classics.
Ultimate Magic has Greater Mercy and Ultimate Mercy (Heal more HP if the target doesn't need the mercy; and bring a dead character back to life - for those pesky dying players). Word of Healing (ultimate magic) allows you to LoH at 30' away and to me is a must for a Paladin with companions who don't stay still.
Extra Channel provides two extra channels whether you are a paladin, cleric or oracle of life. The wording is just a bit clunky because paladin channels are powered off Lay on Hands uses.
It says you get 4 more Lay on Hands attempts. Well, in that case, you should still be able to use them as LoH to use your mercies.
To give some examples of things I'm looking for:
- I never considered to bring scrolls or potions of lesser restoration, delay poison etc. Our wizard came very close to dying due to CON dmg poison, and I've repeatedly used all of my spell slots on lesser restoration to heal multiple cases of ability dmg. Pearls of power are definitely high on my wishlist to bolster my limited number of daily spells.
See, this is why he should have left getting hit to the professionals :D .
A lot of nasty conditions I simply have no way of dealing with. How do we - as a group - deal with this when we are stuck in the middle of a dungeon with no access to a temple or shop? What do we absolutely need to buy to improve our ability to keep everyone in the fight?
Preparation is important. With poisons you should be able to avoid the secondary effect either via neutralize or delay and a decent heal check (tell your ranger to shape up and buy a healing kit, more than one if you are planning a big trip). By the way, a communal delay poison from the witch effectively means you are immune to poison for several hours/day, which should buy your healer plenty of time to administer antidotes and patch you up afterwards. There are relatively cheap ways to buff your heal checks via alchemical substances - they should be affordable enough so you can stock on them, and even cheaper (iirc 1/3rd of the market price) if anyone in your party can make them.
I'd say anything that helps you avoid damage or heal HP or ability damage is interesting, up to and including having you or the ranger get scribe scroll or craft wand, or someone picking up craft (alchemy) to supply you with alchemical buff materials - antitoxin and antiplague can make a lot of difference, and are fairly cheap. Potions from the witch (when she gets cauldron) and scrolls from the wizard would also help, but there are a lot of nice healing spells neither of them gets.
In the middle of a fight, it's going to be extremely hard for you to keep everyone up by raw healing prowess as a paladin. You won't typically have access to the higher output healing spells to do so. You can delay this by using spells such as Shield Other to spread the damage, but it's a delaying action. The wizard casting spells such as Stoneskin would help the delaying action a lot too.As such, you've got to look into getting into the fray to absorb the damage proactively rather than healing it reactively I'd wager. And, as others are saying, a good offense goes a long ways to creating a good defense, so don't ignore that. Using Shield Other in conjunction with your swift action Lay On Hands self can be a nice way to "heal" and keep your action economy peaked.
This is pretty much the approach I've taken so far. I try to avoid in-combat healing unless it is absolutely necessary to keep people alive or on their feet to make a full attack. For instance, I've several times left party members bleeding on the floor in order to attack and take out a threat, rather than channel.
Being 7th level with a decent CHA, I just got a 2nd level spell. So far, I've got Paladin's Sacrifice prepared, so I can soak damage from other party members. (picked this over Fires of entanglement, although that is very iconic for a Sarenrae paladin).
...Specifically, check the Advanced Players Guide and Hospitaler. It changes your channel energy ability, and gives you an Aura of Healing at 11th level instead of Aura of Justice...
Otherwise, I would choose your feats to boost your mercies and healing. Extra Channel and Extra Lay on Hands are classics.
Ultimate Magic has Greater Mercy and Ultimate Mercy (Heal more HP if the target doesn't need the mercy; and bring a dead character back to life - for those pesky dying players). Word of Healing (ultimate magic) allows you to LoH at 30' away and to me is a must for a Paladin with companions who don't stay still.
Fun fact: Jameena was originally a hospitaler archetype paladin, but I got permission to change this. All those extra channels LOOK great, but the Cleric level -3 is a real kicker. I found that channeling 1d6 hp at level 5 just didn't cut it, when the bad guys hit for 20+ dmg per attack.
I didn't know the Greater Mercy and Ultimate Mercy feats. guess I'll have to check that out. Sounds like just the thing.
Edit: Ok, Ultimate Magic has some really useful paladin feats that I had missed. These will definitely be considered for future levels.
A follow-up question:
- Mercies: Assuming my current selection can't be changed, which ones will be most useful to pick up (possibly with Extra Mercy)?
Disease is always a good one, and you have listed the others in effect - cursed, poisoned, blinded, paralysed. These are the big ones that can take other PCs out of the fight in one swoop, or else impose post-combat penalties you would rather not think about.
A common enough question. In the campaigns I have played in, passing out Wands of Cure Light Wounds to everyone and maxing everyone's Use Magical Device skill every level (and with a few Skill Focus:UMD among the players) has helped immensely. Having a few Healing Kits also helps, but getting everyone to 5 ranks of the Heal skill so they can stop bleed-outs of their friends during a battle stops TPKs as well.
So, here's what I do now when I play:
Main Healer: Heal (1) every level, buy the highest-level Wand of C*W you can afford, with a backup Healing Kit
Other Players: Heal to 5 ranks, UMD to 10 ranks (just to have a chance of it working), buy a Wand of CLW, some Bloodblock (APG), maybe some healing potions, etc.
So healing can't be just one person, it's got to be the entire team, even if it's nothing more than carrying a healing potion to use.
At mid and high levels the healer needs Craft Wand, even Forge Ring for a Ring of Regeneration for everyone. The Reach Spell feat (APG) makes all healing spells better because touch spells can now become reach-out-and-heal-someone spells. The same for Maximize Spell and Empower Spell. When your Heal skill is "25" before rolling you can start putting those skill points elsewhere, like Spellcraft and Knowledge: Nature for poisons. Buff that Wisdom for Heal, or Charisma for your spells per day, Lay on Hands, and channeling as a paladin.
Haven't read the witch, but healing or later, major healing hex is nice way to.spread the heal resources.
Disease is always a good one, and you have listed the others in effect - cursed, poisoned, blinded, paralysed. These are the big ones that can take other PCs out of the fight in one swoop, or else impose post-combat penalties you would rather not think about.
I'm not so keen on the remove disease mercy. Unlike poisons, diseases have a rather large onset period. In that time, there is enough time for a character with some healing ranks to help you - and with decent enough healing skill, they should certainly be aware what constitutes likely infection vectors. Unlike most other conditions, disease doesn't impose immediate modifiers that you need to take care of right now.
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It is interesting to note that paladins will often end up having more (or at least as many) channels/day than a cleric at higher levels, since a paladin's LoH uses are based on level (1/2 level +CHA), where a cleric's uses of channel energy is a flat CHA+3.
The Quick Channel feat gives you the option of using a channel as a move action (at the cost of spending an extra channel). Extra Channel gives you two extra channels/day. A one level dip into Cleric gives you an additional CHA+3 CHANNELS, as well as a couple of domains and some extra low level spells, but at a cost, obviously.
Quick Channel
Your divine energies flash with dazzling speed.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, channel
energy class feature.
Benefit: You may channel energy as a move action by
spending 2 daily uses of that ability.
Interesting to note: Quick Channel doesn't forbid you from channeling as a standard action, meaning you could spend a full turn if the excrement hits the proverbial fan to burn Channel Energy TWICE (spending three uses of CE to perform the deed). That could potentially be a TON of healing in a crunch.
I've always wanted to spend time working Quick Channeling/Vital Strike Paladin build, where the paladin could be effective at healing (as a move action) in the same round that he was hitting real hard with a single attack (Vital Strike line, Devastating Strike, etc). I'm not normally a big believer in the Vital Strike line, but Channeling as a move action is a great way to use/justify Vital Strike.
Can anybody think of any other ways to get more uses of Channel/day(other than taking more paladin levels, the Extra Channel feat and a dip into Cleric)?
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Can anybody think of any other ways to get more uses of Channel/day(other than taking more paladin levels, the Extra Channel feat and a dip into Cleric)?Life Oracle gives a channeling option.
I don't think Paladin channeling adds to either cleric channeling or life oracle channeling when it comes to the number of dice, so the extra channeling from cleric or life oracle are going to be extremely mediocre with only a 1 level dip.
Good point. I just checked and the Channel Energy bonuses from Holy Vindicator specifically stack with CE from other classes. I wonder how that would work for a Paladin? Probably add the dice/level, but not uses/day?
Looks like the best way to get Extra Channels is just through the Extra Channel feat -- but that would make a vital strike/ move action channeling paladin pretty tough to build, since you need a lot of feats (Extra Channels, Quick Channel, Vital Strike, Imp Vital Strike, etc) and paladins are already fairly feat starved.
Don't overlook the small things...a party of your level can easily afford antitoxin and anti plague even if it doesn. 't help with the first save, it will help with the second. And sometimes you get clues...
Room is filled with sticky webs
I drink an antitoxin
Remember, a lot of these are saves. Resistance and or more con are both useful. Those are possible with spells.
Potions of lesser restoration are useful. Make sure that EVERYONE has one. Their lack of preparation is not automatically your problem.
Finally scrolls of remove blindness are not that useful, when you think about it. Pay for the potion.
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to make your palaldin better in battle, unsanctioned knoweldge grants 1 spell per lvl of a spell from the cleric/oracle/bard/ inquisitor lists.....
take holy smite...
That's a complete waste, since a paladin should already be able to totally beat the tar out of evil with a dull toothbrush by the time he can cast 4th-level spells.
What a paladin needs most, IMO, is a way to deal with strong opponents who aren't evil -- and Lawful-Neutral is usually the worst (these opponents are usually either high-AC constructs or plate-armored fighters, or monks with a lot of nasty maneuver abilities); a paladin completely focused on laying waste to chaotic and evil is going to have nothing in his bag of goodies to deal with it unless he thinks about it ahead of time.
Actually, I think the feat is decent enough, just that damage spells in general aren't the best way to use it. Depending on what characters you have in the party something like silence, dimension anchor (early entry via inquisitor), good hope, haste/blessing of fervor, dimension door, etc.
Unsanctioned knowledge may be a decent option, but not for this particular character. She has 8 INT, and the feat requires 13 INT minimum.
poison deal with.
Pure faith +4 against poison
req: divine health
I don't think the problem is the paladin's fort save - with a good base, 14 constitution and charisma so high she probably leaves sparkly after-images in the air as she moves, Jammy's fort save should be quite good enough. It's the other blokes she's traveling with that are the problem.
the high cha for divine grace may not always be enough.
There's always the chance to roll 1 (or close enough), but I'd say it's not quite worth it for something that doesn't kill you outright, like poison. You can take a mercy for the poison (via the extra mercy feat if necessary), but generally I don't think it's nearly as big a deal as other things the character can take.
A communal delay poison from the witch will put poisons on hold for an hour or two for everyone, at which point whoever has a decent heal bonus and a few vials of antitoxin can handle it.
Getting your CHA bonus to main attacks on your smites is awesome.
Getting your CHA bonus to your iterative attacks on your smites is awesome.
-- You turn 50% shots into 95% shots.
Huh?
I'm afraid I don't quite follow you, Mike...