About dex as damage: this should be a precision damage, moltiplied on a critical hit (but, for example, undead are immune to it).
Undead are not immune to precision damage.
My only point against this is that is makes dual wielding fighters way too good.
I'm not sure about this. Two-weapon fighting doesn't really work that well unless you have lots and lots of bonus damage, like a rogue, so it could use a boost.
There are also issues on the physical side. It's completely feasible to have someone strong as an ox, as you say, but be clumsy.
In fact, many overdo the body building, becoming fiendishly strong but using agility because all those muscles get in the way.
But Reflex is far and away the most common save, at least in my experience.
Maybe. But most of the time, it's just to avoid some damage. Failing a fort or will save, on the other hand, is often quite devastating: You'll end up blind, severely weakened, dominated, confused, paralysed, dead, or all of the above.
Anyone have other thoughts on how to encourage a more diverse set of dex fighters?
Without ploughing through the whole thread, this has been debated at least twice before on these boards. There are pros and cons: pros, you get finesseable fighters that can actually inflict damage. Cons, Dexterity already adds to saves, AC, attack bonus (with Weapon Finesse) and a lot of skills and you want it on damage AS WELL?
The upshot I have found is that Dex-to-damage is not the issue, which is how to get a damage boost to a low-strength fighter employing skill and finesse over brute power.
I think myself that Intelligence to damage is the better way to go because:
- You are not hanging everything (and I mean everything) on one stat, which is kind of unbalanced and can be overpowered.
- Most finesse builds have reasonable intelligence to take advantage of combat expertise anyway.
- You have made your build MAD (you want high Dex and decent Int as well as non-dumped Str and Con), so adding Intelligence to Strength for damage rather than replacing it is not going to result in a broken build because neither are going to be that high.
- It doesn't break verisimilitude as you are going for brain-beats-brawn concept.
My only point against this is that is makes dual wielding fighters way too good.I'm not sure about this. Two-weapon fighting doesn't really work that well unless you have lots and lots of bonus damage, like a rogue, so it could use a boost.
Fighters have lots of ways to get consistant damage bonuses on all attacks. Weapon Training, Weapon spec, and greater weapon spec all give bonus damage. Fighters have a lot of bonuses to hit, so power attacking in generally a no brainer to use. A level 10 fighter can rack up a +12 to damage without factoring in the bonuses from stats.
Part of what holds DW fighters back is that they have to split their stats between dex and strength. A DW fighter needs dexterity to qualify for the TWF feats. After that, they can dump everything else into strength. So at level 10, most 15 point fighter builds have 17 dex and 20 strength. So after you factor in the -2 to hit for TWF, the fighter would be at +16/+11 to hit with their main hand for 1d4 + 17 and +16/+11 to hit with their off hand. For comparison, and level 10 two-hand fighter would be 22 strength 14 dexterity. The would have a single +3 weapon, and attack at +20/+15 for 2d4 + 25. The TWF fighter does about 50 damage per round, the Two hand fighter does about 55 damage per round. The TWF fighter has +1 AC and reflex save over the TH fighter. The TWF is a little more defensive, the TH build is better offense, but they are really close.
If you add in a single feat that lets a dual wielding fighter get full dex to both hands, that feat will eliminate the need for the fighter to get dual slice. The fighter can replace power attack with prianha strike. So the only extra feat the fighter needs to get is weapon finesse. Now you can make a fighter with 10 strength and 22 dexterity using 2 kukri's. Compared to the normal TWF fighter, you get +2 to hit, +2 to damage, +3 AC, and +3 reflex. The build puts out 65 damage per round. The DW fighter is now doing 10-15% more damage than the best straight fighter build while having +4 better AC and reflex saves than most fighter builds. Further, since you only need a 10 in strength, you can afford to bump up your wisdom and int up by +2 each, and net a +1 to your will save and +1 skill point per level. That build becomes the best fighter build in the game
Short version
At level 10
Two Hand Fighter, 55 DPR
Two Weapon Fighter, 50 DPR, +1 AC, +1 reflex, -4 feats
Two Weapon Fighter with Dex to damage feat that works on both hands, 65 DPR, +4 AC, +4 reflex, +1 will, +1 skill/level, -5 feats
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Lots of good stuff
And this is why Dervish Dance (and consequently the feat I modeled after it) require that you be a one-weapon person (unarmed strike or other odd-ball off-hand weapons notwithstanding, though those weapons are all very suboptimal anyway due to crappy critical) and prevent you from using a shield.
This means that you are offensively worse off, but defensively very good. Which seems like a fair trade, especially if you're a flanking buddy for McBreaksStuff with 28 strength. The defensive increase means that you don't even worry about provoking most of the time, even with combat maneuvers (since the chance of them hitting you will be low).
So I have my stupid question that is can you add multiple modifiers have Dex to attack damage like 2 times dex to damage like a example weapon finesse and agile weapon make 2 time dex <--- an example? Or for int kirin strike and focused shot making 3 times int. Or would you just be stuck to one times each the only reason I'm asking this question is my dm has confused me about what I have multiple modifiers of stats (2 or 3 times (stat) for attack damage rolls)
Contributor
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So I have my stupid question that is can you add multiple modifiers have Dex to attack damage like 2 times dex to damage like a example weapon finesse and agile weapon make 2 time dex <--- an example? Or for int kirin strike and focused shot making 3 times int. Or would you just be stuck to one times each the only reason I'm asking this question is my dm has confused me about what I have multiple modifiers of stats (2 or 3 times (stat) for attack damage rolls)
Generally, no, unless one of the bonuses in question has a specific type (such as insight or sacred). There's an FAQ on the subject.
Hope this helps. ^_^
I'll also note that it takes two feats to make this work, which is not an insignificant investment. For a fighter, it's not that bad, but for rogues and other characters it's actually quite a lot.
1. Rouges have sneak attack.
2. For other characters it SHOULD be a significant investment. two feats isn't really asking all that much.
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Just a reminder for future posters - this is a thread from 2011. ^_^
And we'll be replying to it in 2021.
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If you go DX as ST, consider also going ST as DX.
Meaning if you offer Improved Weapon Finesse, consider giving a way for (non-Ranger) characters to get more use out of a high ST score. Like a feat to have TWF prerequisites be met using ST, or house-ruling an Athletics (ST) skill that allows the character to avoid AoOs like Acrobatics, or allowing ST to key to thrown attacks.
Friendly suggestion.
Edit: I noticed the date. This debate still rages. People join the forum at different times. If the lurks ignite, it's because this isn't their first rodeo.
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Contributor
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If you go DX as ST, consider also going ST as DX.
Meaning if you offer Improved Weapon Finesse, consider giving a way for (non-Ranger) characters to get more use out of a high ST score. Like a feat to have TWF prerequisites be met using ST, or house-ruling an Athletics (ST) skill that allows the character to avoid AoOs like Acrobatics, or allowing ST to key to thrown attacks.
Friendly suggestion.
There's definitely design space that could be explored here. ^_^
I just have Weapon Finesse also include dex to damage with finessable weapons. No half dex for offhand but no 1.5 dex for two handing. I dont like feat tax for something simply done in one. so far there hasnt been a single issue in game, TWF and THF are pretty much two sides of the same coin in my game.