Giver of life doesn't fit.
Giver of life doesn't fit.Material component for resurrection spells.
Then it's not a giver of life but a restorer of life. Every shade of meaning in every word in a riddle matters.
Agreed -- diamonds (indeed carbon) isn't 'classically' associated with being a giver of life.
In large part because it isn't -- it is a building block of life on earth but in and of itself it doesn't give life. After all if that was true we would breath carbon not oxygen.
I gave my players a riddle last session and several didn't think it very fair after they got the answer after MANY hints. Tell me what the rest of you think.
Order from chaos, giver of life.
All love this, yet all seek to mutilate.
Stronger then giants, more beautiful then nymphs.
What am I?** spoiler omitted **
A few hints. I gave far more to my players.
It is tangible. (So nothing like 'nature')Ignore "giver of life" if you are having trouble.
So what does everyone think?
Unfortunately, the answer doesn't fit. While diamonds are popular, they are neither universally treasured, nor does everyone seek to cut them--should be replaced with "Loved by many, yet those lovers seek to mutilate" instead. The "order" part relies probably on more scientific knowledge than should be available in the time period where this riddle would be asked, as well.
Nice. I got it, but the 'giver of life' part is very tricky. I still thought it was a cool riddle.
|
Agreed -- diamonds (indeed carbon) isn't 'classically' associated with being a giver of life.
In large part because it isn't -- it is a building block of life on earth but in and of itself it doesn't give life. After all if that was true we would breath carbon not oxygen.
By "giver of Life" I think they are refering to them as material components for Res spells.
I agree, it's a poor riddle, mostly because of that. They don't give life, at best they "regive" life, or return life, and such a word twist destroys the riddle.
When the poster was say SPOILER does this, SPOILER does that, they where attempting to not spoil the SPOILER. . . :)
In all honesty, I think Pearls (in reference to Undead Creation) would have been a much better answer with that riddle though. The criteria all fits a lot better. For both, maybe "harder than Adamanitne" rather than "stronger than giants" as diamonds have no strength at all.
Testing the player with a riddle or question of knowledge (or anything really) to see if the character can answer it is bad form.
Additionally, questions like the above assume a lot when it comes to personal knowledge and abilities that are not universally true. Makes it hard to keep things really fair.
IMHO.
|
I gave my players a riddle last session and several didn't think it very fair after they got the answer after MANY hints. Tell me what the rest of you think.
Order from chaos, giver of life.
All love this, yet all seek to mutilate.
Stronger then giants, more beautiful then nymphs.
What am I?
What about..
...the base of all life. (if going with science theme)
...incantations bring back life. (if going with spell component theme)
Others
All love this, yet more blood has spilled to obtain it.
Harder than rock, more beautiful than nymphs.
But it is interesting to see how people don't like different parts of this riddle, the one player that didn't like that line didn't like that line because it had to deal with D&D, and they felt it should be answerable regardless of D&D knowledge.
Well, was it a riddle for your players or for their PCs? If you put a riddle in a campaign that is something like "creator of apples", does it make any sense for the PCs to guess that the answer is "jobs" (as in Steve)?
Putting a modern-scientific description right next to a fantasy-magic description is anachronistic.
Also, mutilate means to injure, disfigure or make imperfect, a negative connotation that doesn't translate in someone's mind to the precision cutting a diamond needs to make it fit for use in jewelry. If you say your barber mutilated your hair, you don't mean that he cut it to look more attractive.
I gave my players a riddle last session and several didn't think it very fair after they got the answer after MANY hints. Tell me what the rest of you think.
Order from chaos, giver of life.
All love this, yet all seek to mutilate.
Stronger then giants, more beautiful then nymphs.
What am I?** spoiler omitted **
A few hints. I gave far more to my players.
It is tangible. (So nothing like 'nature')Ignore "giver of life" if you are having trouble.
So what does everyone think?
It was not even close to being a good riddle, IMO.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Testing the player with a riddle or question of knowledge (or anything really) to see if the character can answer it is bad form.
I disagree, I think that it can be fun and rewarding, but depends on how it's handled. As an extra reward, a bonus, or something it can be great, if it's not confrontational (DM vs Players). It also shouldn't be something that they can't proceed without answering, unless it is a goal for after a long quest, and the story or adventure allows for them to discover the answer.
Personally, I offer Wis and less commonly Int checks for extra hints or info if they can't figure it out, possibly with other skills (Know: Religion, Nobility, and History are big ones).
Testing the player with a riddle or question of knowledge (or anything really) to see if the character can answer it is bad form.I disagree, I think that it can be fun and rewarding, but depends on how it's handled. As an extra reward, a bonus, or something it can be great, if it's not confrontational (DM vs Players). It also shouldn't be something that they can't proceed without answering, unless it is a goal for after a long quest, and the story or adventure allows for them to discover the answer.
Personally, I offer Wis and less commonly Int checks for extra hints or info if they can't figure it out, possibly with other skills (Know: Religion, Nobility, and History are big ones).
It's kind of like challenging the player of a barbarian or fighter to overhead press 300 pounds to see if the PC can lift the castle's portcullis...
Testing the player with a riddle or question of knowledge (or anything really) to see if the character can answer it is bad form.I disagree, I think that it can be fun and rewarding, but depends on how it's handled. As an extra reward, a bonus, or something it can be great, if it's not confrontational (DM vs Players). It also shouldn't be something that they can't proceed without answering, unless it is a goal for after a long quest, and the story or adventure allows for them to discover the answer.
Personally, I offer Wis and less commonly Int checks for extra hints or info if they can't figure it out, possibly with other skills (Know: Religion, Nobility, and History are big ones).
Yeah I'm cool with the basic idea as long as it isn't going to punish my character for what is my lack if I can't get it.
|
|
It's kind of like challenging the barbarian or fighter to overhead press 300 pounds to see if he can lift the castle's portcullis...
Actually it the exact opposite. It's a way of challenging the players, not the characters, though their characters and their abilities can and do help. It's also rewarding to the players if they achieve the answer, because it isn't dependant on dice and luck (much).
Harder than steel yet as fragile as the ear,
Basis of life, and restores what is lost,
Loved by many symbol of purity --
yet a purity never complete raw.
Might work.
You say might work. Besides 'basis of life' which gets into the whole 'characters don't know how diamond are made.' what don't you like about your revised version?Harder than steel yet as fragile as the ear,
Basis of life, and restores what is lost,
Loved by many symbol of purity --
yet a purity never complete raw.Might work.
It's a first draft and I typed it in under 5 minutes without review from someone that doesn't know exactly what we are talking about and isn't considering it from the perspective of a pathfinder player that knows his spells.
The restores part I like because it hints at more spells since the restoration line uses diamonds as well. The basis of life part is the touchiest part for me though.
Also it is very linear in my opinion as far as puzzles go that's a toss up.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Good fantasy riddles should reference the fantastic setting, which would allow for Knowledge skill checks that turn into useful clues. This nicely allows PCs with Knowledge skills to puzzle out things that their players would not because they don't live in a fantasy world.
In fact, an appropriate DC check could outright solve the riddle; this might seem 'less fun' than having them puzzle it out, but an INT 25 Wizard should be able to solve things the players could not. Making a riddle into a 'player' conundrum kind of bypasses the whole point of roleplaying - i.e. being something/someone who does things you could not. Riddles should be opportunities to make use of the party's knowledge skills, not make the players spend half an hour scratching their heads.
"I alone cut my brothers,
Born in darkness, washed in blood.
I make real the wizard's desire,
reclaim the hero from his final reward.
Fire eats me, water hides me,
gold binds me, light adorns me."
"I alone cut my brothers"...reference to the fact that diamonds are used to cut other gemstones, being harder than all others. Fairly obscure bit of trivia, unless you have Craft: Jeweler.
"Born in darkness, washed in blood"...diamonds are found underground (dark), and blood is often spilled over them. More of a poetic line, but makes sense given the subject. No skill applies.
"I make real the wizard's desire"...diamonds are component for the Wish spell. Knowledge Arcana or Spellcraft check.
"Reclaim the hero from his final reward"...'final reward' being a reference to death, 'reclaim' referencing Raise Dead, which also has diamonds as a material component. Them being in the same line is a double reference.
"Fire eats me"...diamonds can burn at fairly low temperatures.
"Water hides me"...diamonds are clear and are very hard to spot in water once cut and polished.
"Gold binds me"...as in jewelry settings, of course.
"Light adorns me"...diamonds sparkle, which is why they are coveted so much. These clues probably all add up to a Knowledge Nature skill check.
So there's 3-4 skills that might solve this riddle, and hopefully enough clues that the players might solve it without resorting to skill rolls (which may be more fun, but should not be the only way to solve it - obvious riddle is not always obvious).
What would you change? Did you like a part of it or what parts did you not like?
It was not even close to being a good riddle, IMO.
The diamond being a giver of life. The diamond being mutilated when they are normally finely cut. Mutilated to be is just chopping away with reckless abandon. Stronger than giants, more beautiful than nymphs, is up to interpretation/opinion. The "chaos of heat" is actually based on physics which is pretty orderly so I would not call that chaos.
I would have made it D&D based, maybe even allowing knowledge checks for the players to figure out each line to try to put it together.
PS:I know you did make it D&D based, but at that point the player with the most game experience might figure it out despite his charcter not being able to.
Helic's FTW
Helic is now officially awesome.
|
|
Or not so much.
I alone cut my brothers, (could refere to demons/Devils having DR that their brothers overcome or vice versa)
Born in darkness, washed in blood. (duh)
I make real the wizard's desire, (demons/devils/angels are known for granting "desires")
reclaim the hero from his final reward. (as above, but with a more stealing your soul sense)
Fire eats me, water hides me, (hell and holy water)
gold binds me, light adorns me." (expensive powders used to bind outsiders and the fact many outsiders hide behind illusions and disguises of innocence)
Or not so much.
I alone cut my brothers, (could refere to demons/Devils having DR that their brothers overcome or vice versa)
Born in darkness, washed in blood. (duh)
I make real the wizard's desire, (demons/devils/angels are known for granting "desires")
reclaim the hero from his final reward. (as above, but with a more stealing your soul sense)
Fire eats me, water hides me, (hell and holy water)
gold binds me, light adorns me." (expensive powders used to bind outsiders and the fact many outsiders hide behind illusions and disguises of innocence)
Then it is even more awesome than previously suggested. Two options gives the DM the ability to lengthen or shorten the time frame. Suppose you thought diamonds and they say devils, and it took forever, then say, "Great you did it!" Suppose they say diamonds in like 2 seconds say, "Sorry, that's awesome, but I had something else in mind" roll bluff. Sweet!
Thanks for the compliments. Though I think the first line should be inverted...
"Born in darkness, washed in blood,
I alone cut my brothers.
I make real the wizard's desire,
reclaim the hero from his final reward.
Fire eats me, water hides me,
gold binds me, light adorns me."
It's tempting to go for more flowery english..."Flame consumes me, waters swallow me, bound by golden fetters, adorned by light.", but that would probably be best only if it was a poncy elvish riddle. ^_^
Washed in blood may apply to the real world, but that's because they're mostly mined in less than civilized places.
Ahem, not so much. It is because the price of diamonds is kept artificially high by bottle necking the supply. Since there are plenty of people around to mines that know that diamonds are actually rather common they can grab the extra and then turn around and sell them on the black market in order to supply their other... habits. Diamond is not a rare material -- only the method in which it is sold creates such insane pricing.
|
|
after I got the answer I saw where you were coming from on this...
and then I also saw what everyone said about the riddle...
It's a great start to making riddles! but what has been pointed out a lot is that every word definitely counts!!!! and also how you use those words in connection to the rest of the words...
Riddling is definitely a challenge for anyone not used to it.
Could you write this better? Yes. Is that the answer that any riddler would give you? Yes. Most riddler's that I know say that a riddle needs several and multiple workings before they are ready. A thought is a good start, a good pebble to start the roll, but then when it's pretty much a rock, put it in a river and see what it becomes after being worked hard... does it wash up on the shore the same thing it was or is it gone?
Now, the advice I'd give you, is that the next riddle you use, bounce it off others first for a bit before you bounce it off the PC's... that way you get impressions of what people are going to ask, what knowledge's are needed, and where the weak and strong points are, which words need finesse and if the riddle is too blatant.
Hopefully this helps, and then next time we can help you make a riddle that your PC's can answer at some point and that has the full effect of what most great riddles (in my mind) have, which is 'oh my god, that is SOOOO obvious!'
Washed in blood may apply to the real world, but that's because they're mostly mined in less than civilized places. If there happened to be a huge deposit in Canada or Switzerland instead of Africa they wouldn't be blood diamonds. If your setting has gem mining a mostly Dwarven thing, as I think is common in settings with dwarves, and dwarves as lawful, as is alsos common in settings with dwarves, then washed in blood is going to be misleading.
In a fantasy setting, gems are fought over. Dwarves fight over the lands that have the gems, or under the earth where the gems are, with orcs, kobolds, or whatever. Dragons attack the dwarves to rob them. Adventurers kill the dragon and take its hoard. Washed in blood could, of course, apply to ANY valuable in a fantasy setting. As I mentioned, though, it's really just poetic set-up for "I alone cut my brothers".
I think that from looking at this thread though we can all agree that someone could find an exception to ANYTHING within a riddle.
As it should be. Individual clues could be taken any which way; it's only as a whole does it form a 'true' solution. It's a matter of 'what shares all these qualities, not just one?'.
|
|
ALSO, I feel that a riddle should definitely point to its answer big time...
and easily the ones that do and jump out to me are the ones from The Hobbit:
Alive without breath,
As cold as death;
Never thirsty, ever drinking,
All in mail never clinking.
and
A box without hinges, key, or lid,
Yet golden treasure inside is hid.
you have a fish and an egg... and these are definitely clever, but clever only gets you so far. Fight Club has a comment on that too... and there should be a secondary way for the PC's to get the situation done even if they do not get the riddle... If Bilbo had been some sort of great warrior or super wizard, Gollum would have been toast when he tried to attack him. So, perhaps a Bard could figure out the riddle, specially if he works with a Wizard since that is the key component that is throwing the riddle. But if your party doesn't have either of those... how would they answer that? And what would be the PC's reaction to not being able to get what they need to do...
my high intelligence type character would suggest leaving and coming back after going through the riddle with other people. Lower intelligence characters would try physical and the like...
And so, many of the "keys" to finishing a quest is, IMHO, having a few different ways to satisfy said situation giving who the party of PC's in question are... but now I am guessing as to why you used a riddle in the first place and going on about backdoors to answers and finishing a quest (as I feel every quest should have)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would have said : love. It fits
I will quote Roger Zelazny now :
The sphinx cleared its throat. “Are you ready?” it asked.
“No,” I said. “But I’m sure that won’t stop you.”
“You’re right.”
I felt an uncontrollable desire to yawn and did so.
“You seem to lack something of the proper spirit,” it observed. “But here it is: I rise in flame from the earth. The wind assails me and waters lash me. Soon I will oversee all things.”
I waited. Perhaps a minute passed.
“Well?” the sphinx finally said.
“Well what?”
“Have you the answer?”
“To what?”
“The riddle, of course!”
“I was waiting. There was no question, only a series of statements. I can’t answer a question if I don’t know what it is.”
“It’s a time-honored format. The interrogative is implied by the context. Obviously, the question is, ‘What am I?”’
“It could just as easily be, ‘Who is buried in Grant’s tomb?’ But okay. What is it? The phoenix, of course, nested upon the earth; rising in flames above it, passing through the air, the clouds, to a great height-“
“Wrong.”
It smiled and began to slit.
“Hold on,” I said. “It is not wrong. It fits. It may not be the answer you want, but it is an answer that meets the requirements.”
It shook its head.
“I am the final authority on these answers. I do the defining.”
“Then you cheat.”
“I do not!”
“I drink off half the contents of a flask. Does that make it half full or half empty?”
“Either. Both.”
“Exactly. Same thing. If more than one answer fits, you have to buy them all. It’s like waves and particles.”
“I don’t like that approach,” it stated. “It would open all sorts of doors to ambiguity. It could spoil the riddling business.”
“Not my fault,” I said, clenching and unclenching my hands.
“But you do raise an interesting point.”
I nodded vigorously.
“But there should only be one correct answer.”
I shrugged.
“We inhabit a less than ideal world,” I suggested.
“Hm.”
“We could just call it a tie,” I offered. “Nobody wins, nobody loses.”
|
Breaking it down:
Order from chaos,
Makes no sense to me, I don't see intense pressure as obviously chaotic. This is also not something a dnd character would understand (how diamonds form over thousands of years)
giver of life.
Are your characters high enough level to be monkeying around with ressurection spells? Have they had experience of this?
All love this,
love?
yet all seek to mutilate.
mutilate is misleading, and few people cut gems, it is a specialised craft.
Stronger than giants,
better.
more beautiful than nymphs.
Is it? Surely this is too subjective.