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...You're in a beautifully sunny, flat, grassy-green field, that stretches for miles. How far can you see?
I've been meaning to create an Arcane Archer soon. Complete with feats, the Distance quality granted by Enhance Arrows, and various bonuses from spells, it's more than within an Arcane Archer's capabilities to launch an arrow over 2000 feet away, at about 1/3 the speed of sound.
Questions are:
- How Far Away can your average character see typical terrain? Visible creatures?
There's a Tarrasque standing about 200 feet away. It's 50 feet tall. Are you capable of seeing it? If so, what determines this capability?
- What rolls are necessary to perceive them?
Do you really need to make a Perception roll with a +20 modifier to its DC, to notice a 50 foot tall creature (As in Noticing Finer Details)? What about a castle or structure?
- What AC would you grant an unattended square X distance away?
I want to hit the ground right beside the wall of a structure 250 feet away (I'm standing on a 150ft tall tower, 200 feet from this structure).
How difficult is this?
20 + your Perception modifier X 10ft.
If your Perception check beats your targets Stealth check, you see it.
Many apologies, but please elaborate. My questions are regarding creatures or objects ( or structures or terrain ) Not using any form of Stealth... I only brought up the whole Perception check and the aforementioned modifier, because I wasn't sure what type of roll would allow one character to see something X distance away...
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I do not have my PDF available, but can link you to the PRD.
Under Perception, it states that the DC increases by one per 10 feet of distance. Thus, the furthest you can see is the maximum check you can achieve (20 + Perception modifier) times 10 feet.
20 + 0 Perception = 200ft.
20 + 20 Perception = 400ft.
So that is the limit of your ability to see.
Now, this check is opposed by the target's Stealth check. And Stealth checks are calculated by size modifiers. A mountain, being far larger than even Colossal (which is -16 to Stealth) has such a penalty that you can see it even further away than the limit of your Perception.
Edit: I'm not finding the 'Noticing Finer Details' mentioned, or where it grants +20 to the DC.
I do not have my PDF available, but can link you to the PRD.
Under Perception, it states that the DC increases by one per 10 feet of distance. Thus, the furthest you can see is the maximum check you can achieve (20 + Perception modifier) times 10 feet.
20 + 0 Perception = 200ft.
20 + 20 Perception = 400ft.
So that is the limit of your ability to see.
Now, this check is opposed by the target's Stealth check. And Stealth checks are calculated by size modifiers. A mountain, being far larger than even Colossal (which is -16 to Stealth) has such a penalty that you can see it even further away than the limit of your Perception.
Edit: I'm not finding the 'Noticing Finer Details' mentioned, or where it grants +20 to the DC.
...I'm... Willing to accept that explanation until further notice (Although I'm still inclined to believe that check is only used to notice Fine Details, as is mentioned in the text)
...But, on to question 3; What would you assign in terms of AC, to a square that's X distance away?
EDIT: the +20 modifier I was referring to was Exactly the one you just explained; What it would take to notice something 200 feet away. As for the Fine details... It just states as such just above the table.
EDIT2: "Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent's Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised. If you are successful, you notice the opponent and can react accordingly. If you fail, your opponent can take a variety of actions, including sneaking past you and attacking you.
Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
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...I'm... Willing to accept that explanation until further notice (Although I'm still inclined to believe that check is only used to notice Fine Details, as is mentioned in the text)
...But, on to question 3; What would you assign in terms of AC, to a square that's X distance away?
I would assign no changes to AC, as that is handled by weapon range increments. (If I recall right, hitting a specific square is AC 5 or 10, and if it is outside your range increment, you take a -2 per range increment to the attack roll.)
I know of no other hard-coded distances for sight in the rules. I'm pretty sure it was left up to DM rulings.
...I'm... Willing to accept that explanation until further notice (Although I'm still inclined to believe that check is only used to notice Fine Details, as is mentioned in the text)
...But, on to question 3; What would you assign in terms of AC, to a square that's X distance away?
I would assign no changes to AC, as that is handled by weapon range increments.
I know of no other hard-coded distances for sight in the rules. I'm pretty sure it was left up to DM rulings.
The closest I found was an AC of 5; it was mentioned vaguely elsewhere, when it came to aiming Splash weapons... If there is no dispute, that'll be the one I suggest and/or will abide by, should the DM(GM?) have no other to follow.
...the 200 feet + perception just doesn't make sense to me though. Take long-ranged spells. Already, 400feet + 40/CL is Far surpassing typical vision. a typical Longbow can already shoot 1000 feet at maximum range increments.
Field artillery can shoot at targets they cannot see. I don't see the problem with wizards being able to target areas they cannot see. Nothing says you can't fire blindly.
Therein lies a slight problem; If an Arcane Archer "Misses", with an imbued arrow, the spell is Wasted.
What counts as Missing, in that case?
...I'll grant that you're capable of blind firing with ranged weapons, ray spells, and it's not mentioned anywhere (as far as I can see) when it comes to Area spells. But Imbue Arrow, I'm unsure about.
Also, for reference:
"You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat
this as a ranged attack against AC 5"
Core Rulebook, page 202, under Throw Splash Weapon.
...the 200 feet + perception just doesn't make sense to me though. Take long-ranged spells. Already, 400feet + 40/CL is Far surpassing typical vision. a typical Longbow can already shoot 1000 feet at maximum range increments.
That is because the Perception rules are stupid. By RAW, you can't see the sun or moon because of the distance penalty. Use common sense if whatever you are looking at is out in the open not trying to hide.
That is because the Perception rules are stupid. By RAW, you can't see the sun or moon because of the distance penalty. Use common sense if whatever you are looking at is out in the open not trying to hide.
Would you see 2000 feet away, in the open daylight?
Pathfinder is a game Full of super-human capabilities; Generally speaking, they're gauged by RAW, allowing one to tell if One super-human capability is strong enough to perform a deed or out-perform another. I have to say, when it comes to aiming at a target 2000 feet away, I'm not Quite sure where it falls: If you're standing on a castle wall, aiming at an army half a mile away... Are you capable, or not?
...I'd probably squint. Hard
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That is because the Perception rules are stupid. By RAW, you can't see the sun or moon because of the distance penalty. Use common sense if whatever you are looking at is out in the open not trying to hide.
Well, let's be honest, you can't see the sun or moon in real life either. All you're seeing is the light from the sun hitting you in the eyes, which is much closer to you. :)
Another little problem with the 20+perception rule... What kind of penalty would you assign The entire Ground, when trying to see a square 1000 feet away across a completely flat plane?
...It seems we May need to start differentiating between what you can Aim at ( granted complete line of site ), what you can See, and what you can Select as the point of origin for an Area spell.
Aiming: Ranged touch attacks (Rays) and Range increments (Weapons) take care of how Hard it is to hit something... The question remains, Are you able to Aim at something that you Could theoretically see ( by "common sense" ) so long as it remains within a range... Or, can you only "aim" at something that's [(20+perception)*10ft +(stealth penalty)*10ft] away. In the case of "common sense", you can aim at Any square within range, and at any Creature, reacting normally to their AC. In the case of relying on that Perception check, I think it needs to be specified and elaborated on. Can you target a square, but not a creature, as if it had concealment? Does any Square have a universal AC of 5, as if targeting an intersection with a Splash weapon?
Selecting a point of origin for an Area spell: Theoretically, this is all the Arcane Archer does. I don't even think there's any form of attack roll; Just an immediate "I now have a spell with a range of 2000ft". According to the Perception rule, your average spellcaster is only capable of perceiving a Fraction of this distance. There's no mention on whether this hinders their ability to Select a point of origin, nothing in the general "aiming a spell" section that suggests it Fails. Therefore, in this case, it really doesn't seem to matter if the character can See where they want to cast or not- Even for a spell aimed 2000 feet away. Seeing only helps the character Notice something they want to target.
And finally, back to big question one: How far can a character See, unobstructed?
Unless one can conceive a modifier for seeing the Landscape itself at a certain distance, I don't believe perceiving, say, a Mountain, registers as noticing a Fine Detail. Noticing a wandering group of nomads on said landscape Might. Reading the description of a Spyglass suggests that the perception rule is Indeed the official one to abide by. However, it seems strange that a character's Entire Horizon can be limited to something as low as 200 feet, when seeing unobstructed, while your average archer can shoot 5 times further.
Anyways. Got all that out of my system.
Next thread question: Specifics of Aiming Ranged Weapons: What can you Aim at?
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
...You're in a beautifully sunny, flat, grassy-green field, that stretches for miles. How far can you see?
I've been meaning to create an Arcane Archer soon. Complete with feats, the Distance quality granted by Enhance Arrows, and various bonuses from spells, it's more than within an Arcane Archer's capabilities to launch an arrow over 2000 feet away, at about 1/3 the speed of sound.
Questions are:
- How Far Away can your average character see typical terrain? Visible creatures?
There's a Tarrasque standing about 200 feet away. It's 50 feet tall. Are you capable of seeing it? If so, what determines this capability?
- What rolls are necessary to perceive them?
Do you really need to make a Perception roll with a +20 modifier to its DC, to notice a 50 foot tall creature (As in Noticing Finer Details)? What about a castle or structure?
- What AC would you grant an unattended square X distance away?
I want to hit the ground right beside the wall of a structure 250 feet away (I'm standing on a 150ft tall tower, 200 feet from this structure).
How difficult is this?
So here is what I discovered when working on a sniper encounter. I hope it helps you.
Looking at the Perception check we can discover a few things about how what can and cannot be seen. Let us review a little bit and then move on to ranged attack and stealth.
The DC to spot a visible creature (size isn't mentioned by I assume it is a medium sized creature) who is not using stealth is 0. Therefore, unless you have a -3 on your perception checks and you roll a 1 you will always see the man standing in front of you no further then 10 feet away.
The modifiers also state that the DC goes up by 1 for every 10 feet. That means if the man is now standing 10 feet away the DC increases to 1. If he was standing 100 feet away the DC is 10, and so on.
So to answer your first question, the average NPC has a perception check of +1 (maybe +2, but lets just err on the side of caution.) Assuming they take 10, they are aware of every visible creature within 110 feet of them, provided the conditions are ideal and the environment allows for this distance.
What distances do environments allow? Looks through the Terrain Sections of the rules to find out in more detail but here is the general rules on that subject. Swamps have a maximum perception distance of 6d6x10 feet, Deserts are 6d6x20 feet, Forests are from 3d6x10 to 2d6x10 feet, Hills are 2d10x10 feet, Mountains are 4d10x10, Plains are 6d6x40 feet, and Urban (as far as I can tell) has no set limit but it is assumed the distance is very limited due to the building and the area that the encounter is in. There are some places, such as a mountain overlooking the plains, where the ability to spot someone standing in the open is limited only by the perception check.
So according to the rules, if you were on flat and level ground in the plains the maximum distance for perception checks is 1440 feet. That would be a perception check with a DC of 144. You should keep in mind that a composite longbow without the distance magic ability has a limited range of 1100 feet, so really this maximum distance isn't that unreasonable.
There are not rules that specifically give increases to that maximum distance. However, I think it is reasonable to say that you could add to that maximum distance if you were in a high tower, flying, or had some other advantage.
Keep in mind we are talking about the most ideal conditions, without spells or tools, and on even ground with no cover or concealment. The Perception skill is filled with many conditional modifiers, all but one of them increasing the DC.
The one thing the skill does not spell out is what the DC is for spotting creatures of different sizes, such as Small or Large creatures. In this case, I would personally just add the modifier they would have for Stealth. That would mean spotting a small sized creature who is not using stealth is DC 4, while spotting the Large sized creature is DC -4. Buildings are generally Colossal sized so the check to spot them is at DC-16. Obviously, if the building is particularly large, like a castle, the check would be something more obvious like DC-50 or DC-100. Even with the distance rules, I would just automatically have people notice them unless there was something like a mile between the PCs and the castle.
Besides, when do you ever need to roll to spot castles in the distance? Never. If a GM asks for a check to see a castle, shoot them. No jury will convict.
Now, let us tackle the questions!
1)Already answered. The answer to the follow up is yes, you would see the Terrasque unless they were using stealth, and to be honest I would be surprised if he found cover large enough. For practice sake, the DC to spot the Terrasque standing in the open 200 feet away is DC 4 if you use my homerule on creatures larger or smaller then medium. Yep, DC 4. But that is just him standing there doing nothing, which would worry me more then if he was chasing after me.
2)No, and the reason is simple. There is no such thing as a critical fail in skill checks. With a +20 perception check, you can assume you notice everything with a DC lower then DC 21.
Your wording is a little confusing so I may have answered wrong due to misunderstanding.
3) Ahh! An archery question! Okay, so after doing some math we can find that you are 250 ft. from the square you want to hit. If you have no feats or class abilities that reduce penalties for range increments then your shot with a composite longbow will be at a -4 (two increments away.) The DC for the perception check to pick out the 5x5 plot of land is DC 25 (actually I would have it be with favorable conditions and home rule a conditional modifier for high ground, putting the DC at 21.) So you should be able both see and hit that plot of ground most of the time if not all of the time if the PC is mid level.
Why? The Armor Class of that plot of ground is 3, and you have a +5 modifier to hitting it. So considering the range penalty, you gain a +1 to hit an AC of 3! Don't Roll A 1!
Now onto the last proposed scenario you gave. To be honest this is something the rules do not cover, or at least cover well. Standing on a castle wall, during a beautiful day, shooting at an approaching army. Can it be done? Sure. It does depend on the size of the army, but let us assume that it is a massive 100,000 strong and it is marching across open plains that are miles wide in all directions. They would be kicking up dust, and would form a large body possibly miles long. If they were marching in a formation that was meant to set up a siege, then it is possible that they would be about a mile deep and wide, though I would need to do math on that to find out for sure.
So a huge army is approaching, you would first spot the dust cloud. Let us say that it is still 2 miles away. For this scenario I would forgo the increase to DC because of distance. I would just set the DC at 30 and lower it as the army drew closer.
The internets tell me that if you were standing on a tower 100m tall (about 320 feet) you could see for 35.7km (about 22miles) to the horizon. It would not be unreasonable then to house rule that you would be able to see the army by the time it was the 2000 feet you proposed. By could you attack the army with an arrow at that distance? With a +1 Distance Composite Longbow, the maximum distance is 2200 feet. If you had the Far Shot feat, and the sniper rogue's accuracy class feature the penalty for the 2000 foot shot would be -4 (only -1 per increment, and half penalties with accuracy class feature, makes 9 increments give you a -4 penalty.)
So what I would do is let you fire at AC 10, seeing as the army is made up of people who will probably have some armor but who will be flat-footed. The AC is also low because you are not aiming at one person, but a group of people. If the army is packed tightly enough you are bound to hit someone. Also, the army is mostly level 1 commoners and level 1 warriors, so have fun racking up one shot kills.
Side note, if you are standing in a flat field, the horizon is about 3 miles away.
EDIT: The AC of 3 for the ground was assuming you were using the "Attacking unattended objects" rules. Using the splash weapons, the AC is 5 if attacking an intersection. I assume the higher AC (and the lack of +5 to hit with ranged attack) is due to the balance needed for that type of attack. In the real world, it is justified as trying to throw something in such a way that it breaks and splashes its contents all over your intended targets.
Your GM may then use either ruling for attacking a specific 5 foot square area with a ranged attack.
EDIT AGAIN: Deleted a paragraph about spotting pimples on the Terrasque's butt. To be honest, I think I was just confused as to what the question was.
For an added mental exercise in the madness that is D&D rules, try to calculate the DC to see the Sun.
I love you.
But, no worries. If I had a weapon that could Reach the sun, it's only an AC of 5 to hit a particular point on its 6.0877×10^12 km2 surface... right?
"CalebTGordan"
Consider this a Placemarker for a reply to you, my new favorite Lord(or lady) of Awesomeness, Research, and Replies.
(...sorry, TriOmegaZero)
I shall read this and saturate my mind with its details in the morning of the morrow. Goddess bless, for the reply. ^_^
It is not often that I feel out-Rules-Lawyered.
Just as planned.
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For an added mental exercise in the madness that is D&D rules, try to calculate the DC to see the Sun.
The sun is 1.4 million km, or 869,919.669 miles wide. That is about 4,593,175,850 ft.
It is 92,955,820 miles away.If you use the home rule I suggested and add the modifier to stealth to all perception checks used to just notice the creature then we can do the following:
The penalty to Stealth increases by 4 for each size increment. If we were to continue adding more and more sizes creatures and objects could be then we could do use the following system to figure out the size of the sun if it was an encounter.
Every third increase adds 5ft. to the area it takes up. Thus the pattern of size increase goes 5, 5, 5, 10, 10, 10, 15, 15, 15, and so on.
Starting from Medium we have 5 (the base), 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 65, 80, 105, 125, 145, 165, 190... and so on. Seeing as the modifier increases by -4 with each increase the size that takes up 190 feet has a size modifier to Perception checks to notice it of -52.
I am no math genius, so I can't actually figure out the DC to noticing the Sun if it was 5 feet from you. I would guess the DC is insanely high, like a DC 1 billion. I am sure someone with better math skills can tackle that problem.
I can tell you that the DC is increased by +49,080,672,960 for distance.
Someone want to run the math on that?
EDIT: The light from the Sun is 8 minutes old, so a successful perception check would be too late to save you from an attack anyway.
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Sorry for the frequent and long posts, but here is another random thought:
If you are standing in an open field attacking someone from 1000 feet away (yes I am assuming you can see the person clearly. It is possible with magic items, spells, and feat combos,) it is possible for them to fail to notice you. Do not get me wrong, they will not fail to notice they are being attacked, that is automatic. Here is how this works.
DC -10 to notice a combat. I am using this for fairness sake, as you are not exactly standing still 1000 feet away. SO base DC of -10, plus the 100 for distance, makes the check the target needs to spot you firing arrows at them be DC 90.
Or is it? Some argue you immediately know the exact location of the person firing on you, but there is nothing I can find in the rules that proves that is true. Please, let me know where to read that if it is in the rules. I would allow the target to automatically know the direction of the shot, and thus the DC is adjusted. But by how much? Personally I think lowering it by 10 is reasonable, so now we have a DC 80 check! Even if I lowered it by 50, the DC would still be at 40 and most foes do not have the skill needed to beat a DC 40 check.
So, the answer is yes, you can fire on someone and have enough distance between you and the target that the target will not be able to see you and thus return fire upon you.
Just a little thought experiment to supplement the current topic.
EDIT: This is all assuming the foe you are attacking does not have the magic items, feats, and spells needed to see you.
Do note that due to the time taken for the sun's light to reach the Earth, you're not seeing it where it really is. Any attacks aimed at what you see in the sky (assuming the attacks travel at the speed of light and have sufficient range) would miss completely.
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Caleb you numbers give a DC of 38,057,050,932 to see the sun.
Clearly the perception rules should be the straight physics equation for what the relative size of an object is. Everyone has a scientific calculator at the game table anyway right?
The rules as stated aren't that bad. It is pretty hard to tell just how far away something is over extreme distances. And if you can't figure out the range accurately you can't hit it with an arrow. So knowing the Tarrasque is over that way is super easy. figuring out the range to +-5' is really tough. +-60' should be plausible but not assumed.
It comes down to how large your area spell is :)
Could you post the math equation on that? I am just curious what the modifier to stealth is supposed to be for a creature or object that takes up 4,593,175,850 feet, and I have other large objects (castles, the moon, mountains,) that I would love to figure out the DCs for.
Also, it occurs to me that the moon, while smaller, is closer and almost always hidden from sight during the day. The sun on the other hand needs total cover with either the Earth itself or thick clouds for us not to see it if we are outside. Maybe there should be a bonus for being extremely bright on account of it being on fire?
I guess the Moon would have a reflecting light bonus, while stars would have the same bonus the Sun has, but only at night?
EDIT: The Impossibly Bright bonus would have to be at least +1,942,949,068 to make the DC 0. But I would think the check to spot the sun on a clear day is at DC -10 at least.
I'd round off impossibly bright to a flat 2 billion.
Easy peasy.
DC -10 to notice a combat. I am using this for fairness sake, as you are not exactly standing still 1000 feet away. SO base DC of -10, plus the 100 for distance, makes the check the target needs to spot you firing arrows at them be DC 90.Or is it? Some argue you immediately know the exact location of the person firing on you, but there is nothing I can find in the rules that proves that is true.
I believe there's a particular quote for Sniping, stating that you can make a stealth check with a -20 modifier to remain hidden... Granted that the one shooting is actually taking the time to do so Stealthily. That being said, it's the closest thing I can come up with.
I read your Entire, wonderful post. Thank you Ever so verily for it. ^_^
The reason I brought up AC 5, and not 3, is because an Arcane Archer intending to cast an area spell at such amazing distances is still doing so with a point of origin at an Intersection.
You've answered most questions I've had about distance... And even provided some research from Teh Interwebs, regarding distance to horizon for someone atop a tower...
I guess it's up to me to now research methods of creating a Spyglass-like pair of goggles and/or scope for a Longbow that'd allow me to take Significantly less penalty for perception checks at such astounding distances. ( this may raise questions as to if someone can use such a device for distances In between particular thresholds, or if it'd turn out like the blurry unfocused image from a pair of binoculars. )
So, I have one final, more Class-specific question:
Does an Arcane Archer need to actively make a successful attack (Both attack roll, and spotting the square) to use an area spell 2000 feet away? Would you make him? After all, he Is using an Arrow...
Or does he simply "Select" the desired point of origin... Launch an arrow... And, so long as it's physically possible for the arrow to find its way there, it finds itself magically drawn there.
While we're on the subject, It'd be nice to know if you even Need to See the area you wish to target with an Area spell, granted the book really only states you need to "Select" the point. An Arcane Archer could probably just Scry, and fire anyways, even though this doesn't make much conventional sense when aiming a bow.
Finally, to clarify the second question, with the questionable wording... I was working with the First example, of a Tarrasque being 200 feet away. In other words, +20 modifier, due to the distance, not counting the tarrasque's penalty to stealth due to size.
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I believe there's a particular quote for Sniping, stating that you can make a stealth check with a -20 modifier to remain hidden... Granted that the one shooting is actually taking the time to do so Stealthily. That being said, it's the closest thing I can come up with.
Yes, you could use the sniping option to stay hidden but you would only have one attack per round. The example I gave was showing that you could have a full attack at a far distance and still have people not be able to spot you. However, the foe being considered flat-footed after the first round of combat is up for debate.
I read your Entire, wonderful post. Thank you Ever so verily for it. ^_^The reason I brought up AC 5, and not 3, is because an Arcane Archer intending to cast an area spell at such amazing distances is still doing so with a point of origin at an Intersection.
You've answered most questions I've had about distance... And even provided some research from Teh Interwebs, regarding distance to horizon for someone atop a tower...
Your welcome. You should keep in mind that you GM might handle things differently. Most of the rules you are asking about are mostly ignored because they are not used all that often and take time to figure out on the fly.
I guess it's up to me to now research methods of creating a Spyglass-like pair of goggles and/or scope for a Longbow that'd allow me to take Significantly less penalty for perception checks at such astounding distances. ( this may raise questions as to if someone can use such a device for distances In between particular thresholds, or if it'd turn out like the blurry unfocused image from a pair of binoculars. )So, I have one final, more Class-specific question:
Does an Arcane Archer need to actively make a successful attack (Both attack roll, and spotting the square) to use an area spell 2000 feet away? Would you make him? After all, he Is using an Arrow...
Or does he simply "Select" the desired point of origin... Launch an arrow... And, so long as it's physically possible for the arrow to find its way there, it finds itself magically drawn there.
While we're on the subject, It'd be nice to know if you even Need to See the area you wish to target with an Area spell, granted the book really only states you need to "Select" the point. An Arcane Archer could probably just Scry, and fire anyways, even though this doesn't make much conventional sense when aiming a bow.
Finally, to clarify the second question, with the questionable wording... I was working with the First example, of a Tarrasque being 200 feet away. In other words, +20 modifier, due to the distance, not counting the tarrasque's penalty to stealth due to size.
More thought experiments! Yay!
Once you have spotted something you should not have to continue to roll Perception checks to notice it unless the subject moves or becomes hidden from view. In the case of stationary objects, locations, and buildings you shouldn't have to make a second roll unless you move a great distance away.
So no, you do not need to actively make perception checks to spot something you have already spotted.
You can always take 20 on a Perception check if the conditions for taking 20 are met. Basically you cannot be in combat and need time.
Reading the entry "Imbune Arrow" you do need to aim and fire the arrow at the square. It specifically says that if the arrow misses then the spell is wasted. I would be interested in finding out if the ability was written assuming the arrows were all fired at enemies, but I would be alright with targeting specific squares, objects, or buildings.
Recap: One perception check total for the encounter, one attack roll per arrow.
Yes, you need to have line of sight on the area you want to cast a spell on, and thus you need line of sight on your target for your spell to work. There are exceptions but that would mostly be up to your GM.
Now on to Feats, Spells, and Magic Items!
The Keen Senses racial ability gives a +2 to perception
The Alertness feat gives you a +2 to Perception checks, or a +4 after 10 ranks in the skill.
The Eagle Eyes feat allows you ignore up to -5 in penalties to perception checks due to distance.
The Sharp Senses feat doubles the bonus granted from the keen senses racial trait.
Skill Focus gives you a +3 to any one skill, or +6 if you have 10 ranks in it.
A spyglass halves the increase to the DC due to Perception to +1 for every 20 feet.
Eyes of the Eagle gives a +5 competence bonus to perception checks.
A few spells give you small bonuses to skill checks, like Prayer and Guidance. Also there is a bardic performance that gives bonuses to skill checks.
Several traits give bonuses to perception.
So assuming that your Wisdom is 18, you are level 10, and optimized your build just for perception, your perception check bonus would be +36 (10 ranks + 3 for class skill + 4 from ability + 2 Keen Senses + 2 for Sharp Senses + 4 Alertness + 6 Skill Focus + 5 from Eyes of the Eagle)
With taking 20 and using a spyglass you would have the ability to spot a medium sized person standing in an open field 1120 feet away (36 + 20 = 56. 56 X 20 = 1120)
Remember that the DC could change due to circumstances, the distance will be more or less.
Lastly, almost all of the encounters you will face will never be from those great distances. Most of them will be within 100 feet. Any encounter starting from a distance of 1000 feet will be one you set up, and it is rare that players have the ability to set up the encounters.
Yes, you need to have line of sight on the area you want to cast a spell on, and thus you need line of sight on your target for your spell to work. There are exceptions but that would mostly be up to your GM.
By Goddess, I Love stamping out the finer details...
Anyways. ^_^ Thank you again, and the rules that remain clear to me are as follows:
1) Where does it specifically state that you need to See the point of origin for an Area spell? As far as I know, I *believe* you only need to Select one... Nothing explicitly states you need to See the space you select.
2) Can an Arcane Archer fire Blindly, if the above is true?
3) Can an Arcane Archer aim for a space discovered through Scrying, as opposed to a Perception check to see his target through direct line of sight?
An Arcane Archer would need to Always fire an arrow at a Grid intersection when using Imbue Arrow for an Area effect spell; In fact, I believe it explicitly states this is the Only type of spell that can be Imbued. Therefore, the AC is a constant 5, I believe; It probably counts as a Miss if the attack roll fails, If it hits a creature when the Archer is aiming at an Intersection, or (if it's even possible to do so) the Archer misses a creature he was aiming at...
Some spells seem to be able to be centered on You, and still count as an Area spell. Maybe these can explicitly be centered on a Creature, instead of a space. Anyways, I'll research Those another day. What's confusing is that:
- The Imbue Arrow ability States that the spell is centered on Where the arrow lands
- The Imbue Arrow ability states that, should the arrow 'miss', the spell is wasted.
4)...How does an Imbued Arrow Miss, when its target is effectively "Wherever this arrow Lands"?
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Yes, you need to have line of sight on the area you want to cast a spell on, and thus you need line of sight on your target for your spell to work. There are exceptions but that would mostly be up to your GM.By Goddess, I Love stamping out the finer details...
Anyways. ^_^ Thank you again, and the rules that remain clear to me are as follows:
1) Where does it specifically state that you need to See the point of origin for an Area spell? As far as I know, I *believe* you only need to Select one... Nothing explicitly states you need to See the space you select.
2) Can an Arcane Archer fire Blindly, if the above is true?
3) Can an Arcane Archer aim for a space discovered through Scrying, as opposed to a Perception check to see his target through direct line of sight?
An Arcane Archer would need to Always fire an arrow at a Grid intersection when using Imbue Arrow for an Area effect spell; In fact, I believe it explicitly states this is the Only type of spell that can be Imbued. Therefore, the AC is a constant 5, I believe; It probably counts as a Miss if the attack roll fails, If it hits a creature when the Archer is aiming at an Intersection, or (if it's even possible to do so) the Archer misses a creature he was aiming at...
Some spells seem to be able to be centered on You, and still count as an Area spell. Maybe these can explicitly be centered on a Creature, instead of a space. Anyways, I'll research Those another day. What's confusing is that:
- The Imbue Arrow ability States that the spell is centered on Where the arrow lands
- The Imbue Arrow ability states that, should the arrow 'miss', the spell is wasted.4)...How does an Imbued Arrow Miss, when its target is effectively "Wherever this arrow Lands"?
1) Read through Aiming a Spell. The wording on ranged attacks says nothing about having to see the target, but Total Concealment states that you cannot target a foe who has total concealment, but you can target the square they are in. So, you are right in that you only need to be able to pick the square, but you still need line of effect. Line of effect means that you don't really need to have a clear view of the area you are targeting. However, you still cannot have physical barriers in your way.
2)Sure, you can fire blind. You target a square and fire. However, that does not mean anyone will be in the area.
3)No idea. I think that is a situation that isn't covered by the rules as they are written. Ask your GM.
I think that the targeting situation depends on the type of spell. If the spell is an area spell that centers on a creature normally then I would have the attack target a creature. If it is just a normal area spell then it would target the ground.
4) Remember that rolling a 1 means an auto fail. Seeing as the ability calls for an attack roll, you can't fail. I still think that some of the attacks need to target creatures if the area spell normally has the spell centered on a creature.
It is simple you house rule the 10 +1 rule, and never look back.
Your stander non-professional baseball player can watch a ball leave the pitcher’s hand going 80-90mph, catch the impact point to get a the jump on the ball, then run a good distance while keeping their eyes on a diminutive item that started its little vacation 300 feet away. This great feat of perception can be done by a 16 year old kid playing ball in a field, and get this, a drunk man setting in the standing that is another 300 feet from the ball can also see the same thing happen.
If the item is standing in the open the perception check to see them is 100% ZERO at any range below a few miles. The horizon will get in the way before your eyes will run out of power.
Perception rules are built around "normal" combat, which is relatively close range, and shouldn't be used for spotting long distance objects or people. You should be able to spot a person at 5 miles without too much issue if they are elevated or silhouetted against the sky on a clear day, which you could never do with the current rules.
Fortunately, and especially for Archers and high-leveled spellcasters, Half a mile away from your enemy Doesn't restrict you from entering into combat with them. as such, RAW would be appreciated with respect as to how to deal with them. The GM can use the above discussed perception rules, and assign modifiers as neccessary, in order to judge possible actions should ever it be questioned.
The only other problem I can see with Assuming you spot your foe at such long ranges are that a Ranger with 12 ranks in Perception and a bum off the street would spot eachother at the same time, across miles. Would the perception skill's only use be in regards to Stealth, at that distance? ( assuming bright light, line of sight and line of effect ).
The above perception rules are Also Extremely useful in judging just how much Detail one can perceive at such a distance. Such as targetting a particular soldier, as opposed to targetting an army- Even though, if you just houseruled as suggested, Both tasks are equally difficult.
Finally, I'm honestly not sure how to treat the Sun. Your post makes sense, Stubs, but I'm not sure it would work in Pathfinder. Else I could make a pair of Sunshades to avoid all negative effects of Ebon Eyes.
All the above being said, I think I'll take the Arcane Archer questions with regards to Imbue Arrow and Firing Blindly, into another thread...
That's my 2cp anyways. Again, it isn't RAW, and this is a rules forum so i understand if others disagree, but as has been stated,...
No, no they don't- And yet, Ironically, there's a wonderful little item called a Spyglass that Exists for the sheer purpose of Seeing farther, Suggesting that Anyone could use the Perception skill to create a DC and check that abides by RAW, give or take a few modifiers suggested by the GM: Modifiers that would effectively cover all you've just mentioned, but at the GM's discretion of Just how Impactful they are.
*breathe*
Anyways. ^_^
The whole Ebon Eyes argument actually refers to the Spellblight, And can be found Here. To summarize in short, the thread was responded to with the statement that a pair of Sunshades, or some other Light-filtering object, Don't Exist (as to avoid exploits). Personally, I would still Strongly suggest that anything from a pair of tinted glass lenses, to a black transparent scarf or cloth, would work; My Common Sense dictates that Because they would filter the Bright light passing through them to appear as Normal Light to the eyes, ebon eyes would basically react by seeing Dim light instead of Total Darkness.
Anyways, Any response to the ebon eyes argument should be redirected to That thread.
Tomorrow, I'll continue to pursue the proper procedure of long-range archery and spellcraft (and Imbue Arrow) on yet Another thread. Although we've established both the General guidelines, and Rules as Written, for Seeing at such distances, There is more clarification to be found as to How Long-ranged PCs utilize their perception for offensive capabilities...
That is because the Perception rules are stupid. By RAW, you can't see the sun or moon because of the distance penalty. Use common sense if whatever you are looking at is out in the open not trying to hide.
i actually do not think they are stupid. For a typical adventurer who is already more skilled than the average person.
I mean, right now I have a player who is playing Firbolg Barbarian and by the default formula he would have a complete site of 360 feet. basically 3 foot ball fields from end to end (complete end to end).
If we're talking broad daylight no environmental limitations (which there can be and I think someone listed them above) is a pretty fair formula.
That is because the Perception rules are stupid. By RAW, you can't see the sun or moon because of the distance penalty. Use common sense if whatever you are looking at is out in the open not trying to hide.
i actually do not think they are stupid. For a typical adventurer who is already more skilled than the average person.
I mean, right now I have a player who is playing Firbolg Barbarian and by the default formula he would have a complete site of 360 feet. basically 3 foot ball fields from end to end (complete end to end).
If we're talking broad daylight no environmental limitations (which there can be and I think someone listed them above) is a pretty fair formula.
Perhaps you should've made a perception check to notice the fine details on the posts. Specifically, the dates they were posted.