Takes one level of Sorceror just so he can cast Enlarge on himself.
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Takes one level of Sorceror just so he can cast Enlarge on himself.
I think he'd be better off putting ranks in UMD and getting a wand or buying some potions but I don't have an issue with it at all. He's spending a round to buff. It's not any different than a fighter/wizard doing the same thing.
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I think you can't call him a min/maxer any longer :)
From a min-max perspective, go wand all the way. It's more worth to take skill focus (UMD) than to take a sorcerer level, since you lose a whole level of barbarian stuff otherwise and still suffer arcane spell failure.
Wands don't suffer ASF and don't provoke attacks of opportunity.
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Yeah this sort of class change bugs me when players do this. I've always been of the belief that you can't just "pick up" some of the classes (Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric, Paladin, etc) after 1st level without some story/plot/event related effect.
For instance in a game I was running the summoner used her Eidolon to trigger a powerful electrical trap which killed the Eidolon and banished it. So next session when she decided to pick up a level of Sorcerer, bloodline Blue Dragon I had no issue with it because the electrical trap was a catalyst for that.
If the barbarian picks up a level of sorcerer in a legitimate way sure, if he jut grabs it for Enlarge I'd be coughing "power gamer" <cough>.
From a min/max perspective, he should be getting the Wizard or Sorcerer to cast the spell on him.
Or the Summoner for that matter.
Or he should just pick up a pole-arm for reach without losing AC from being large.
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Yeah this sort of class change bugs me when players do this. I've always been of the belief that you can't just "pick up" some of the classes (Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric, Paladin, etc) after 1st level without some story/plot/event related effect.
For instance in a game I was running the summoner used her Eidolon to trigger a powerful electrical trap which killed the Eidolon and banished it. So next session when she decided to pick up a level of Sorcerer, bloodline Blue Dragon I had no issue with it because the electrical trap was a catalyst for that.
If the barbarian picks up a level of sorcerer in a legitimate way sure, if he jut grabs it for Enlarge I'd be coughing "power gamer" <cough>.
as other people have said, what he is doing is not power gaming, and i would say very far from it.
I still understand if you have problems with the why or how, regarding to the character in specific, but atleast i dont think you can use the power gaming argument, because it really isnt power gaming at all.
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Yeah this sort of class change bugs me when players do this. I've always been of the belief that you can't just "pick up" some of the classes (Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric, Paladin, etc) after 1st level without some story/plot/event related effect.
For instance in a game I was running the summoner used her Eidolon to trigger a powerful electrical trap which killed the Eidolon and banished it. So next session when she decided to pick up a level of Sorcerer, bloodline Blue Dragon I had no issue with it because the electrical trap was a catalyst for that.
If the barbarian picks up a level of sorcerer in a legitimate way sure, if he jut grabs it for Enlarge I'd be coughing "power gamer" <cough>.as other people have said, what he is doing is not power gaming, and i would say very far from it.
I still understand if you have problems with the why or how, regarding to the character in specific, but atleast i dont think you can use the power gaming argument, because it really isnt power gaming at all.
Ok what is it called then? It's certainly not Roleplaying ;-)
It's a waste of a level that should be in Barbarian and like others say, take UMD and get a wand/rod or have another spell caster doing it. Sounds like someone wanted to be a power gamer, but didn't read the union handbook on it. (LOL)
Anything that takes away from Rage, and related abilities, like taking another class, will eventually take away from the class unless it augments what the Barbarian does. Yes being enlarged helps a LOT, but also, there are plenty of times being enlarged can cause problems. And if I caught a player doing something like this just for a bonus this or a bonus that, I would make it a point that things come into being that from time to time make said decision a bad one. Tight tunnels, small rooms, or multiple opponents with ranged attacks can make a large character a easy target. (speaking from experience)
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Ok what is it called then? It's certainly not Roleplaying ;-)
Oh, is that what we're talking about? Well I should think you must be more worried whether that sorcerer dip interferes with his ability to grow a proper mustache.
I go with some of the other previous posters - he's merely made a poor decision.
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Ok what is it called then? It's certainly not Roleplaying ;-)
It's nothing, simply that.
Ok what is it called then? It's certainly not Roleplaying ;-)
Did the Player take a level of sorcerer? Or did the Character?
Just because the player has no RP reason doesn't mean the Character doesn't. And Pally, Sorc, and Barb are the simplest: you don't need an RP, they are spontanous manifestations. Pallys are called (not always chosen) so he just takes the call finally. Sorc he just accepts his bloodline. Barb, he gets in touch with his wild/Urban/Titan side.
Seriously, you pick the weird examples that are counter your argument.
Takes one level of Sorceror just so he can cast Enlarge on himself.
Not sure how you think it's min-maxing for the barbarian to use a full round action to buff himself instead of getting into position, or how the barbarian loses out on great class features because he's too cheap to buy Potions (why, hello standard actions!).
You could even have the character roleplaying as an addict, or someone who thinks his combat prowess is solely based on the potion. I think either gives adequate justification for always having one in-hand.
Long run, the wand is still better than losing the Barbarian level, even if the player did tank their CHA.
Ok what is it called then? It's certainly not Roleplaying ;-)
Why isn't it role playing? Would you say the same thing about a fighter that wants evasion so he takes a few levels of rogue or monk? What about the rogue that wants to be able to turn invisible so he takes a few levels of sorcerer or wizard? What about the cleric that wants heavy armor and better saving throws so he takes some levels of paladin?
There are plenty of ways to have latent sorcerer abilities appear in a character. There are several bloodlines that mix consistently well with the barbarian rage powers.
He is creating a character that he wants to enjoy playing. It won't be game breaking. If anything he may end up regretting his decision later. Remember that he will have to suffer arcane spell failure if he wants any armor. Remember that he will be either wasting a round or two buffing (he may find other spells he likes besides enlarge person). If he wants to buff while raged, he will have to take moment of clarity which he can only use once per rage.
I say to let him have his character and let him determine how it affects his role playing.
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AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN. ONLY LEVEL DIP ACCEPTABLE AM ORACLE 1. BARBARIAN TOO MANLY TO NEED ANY OTHER CLASSES.
The reason you're getting such a range in response is because this isn't a rules issue, it's a style issue.
As such, it should be dealt with up front, at the beginning of the campaign. What are the group norms for multi-classing? Archetypes? Prestige classes?
If you DON"T talk about it, then everyone walks in thinking "My way is %100 normal". Then, if your style doesn't match the group, you get a lot of frustration.
And, I'll just add as a closing note: This style thing needs to go both ways. If the players are running into Bearded Devils who have taken a level of fighter so they can wear half-plate, then you will see a LOT more of this from your players. Maybe that's cool with you, maybe it's not.
The point is, whatever decision you make, make it. Then communicate it to everyone else. You'll have a much more cohesive gaming group.
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I agree that one doesn't just "pick up" a level of sorcerer. Sorcery is not a learned skill - that is the whole point of sorcery. Any character might have something in her background that could manifest at any time as "a level dip into sorcerer". Let the player find a good story line and go with it.
I would say exactly the same about the oracle class. The gods might pick anyone to be an oracle. The player might not even need a story lime beyond, "Aaaah!! What's happening to me?! I suddenly can't walk as fast as I could yesterday, but somehow I can do magic!"
Take Leadership, and have a cohort that specializes in buffing you.
Why just get Enlarge, when you can get Enlarge, Bull Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Barkskin, healing, Energy Resistance, Blur, Displacement, Blink, Greater Invisiblity, Good Hope, False Life, etc. etc. AND it won't take an extra action to use. AND it can also benefit the rest of the party by buffing or healing them as well?
I agree that one doesn't just "pick up" a level of sorcerer. Sorcery is not a learned skill - that is the whole point of sorcery. Any character might have something in her background that could manifest at any time as "a level dip into sorcerer". Let the player find a good story line and go with it.
I would say exactly the same about the oracle class. The gods might pick anyone to be an oracle. The player might not even need a story lime beyond, "Aaaah!! What's happening to me?! I suddenly can't walk as fast as I could yesterday, but somehow I can do magic!"
How is it a problem? A character can go 16 years in his life without any indication that he has latent magical powers but if he starts down a different path, that latent magical power can't manifest a year later? I don't see any difference. Who knows, maybe it was there all along and he just didn't want to accept it. Maybe that pat on the back he would give his companions for support before charging into battle was just a little more. Maybe it pushed them to greater heights unbeknownst to them. He then figures out that it was destiny guiding him and that he can actually influence them if he tries a little. Maybe when he tells jokes he slaps his friends' backs and they laugh just a little harder. Turns out that there is a reason for this and he figures out how to make people laugh by touch. Maybe in his youth he would get into coordinated fights and when he bumped fists before the fight his opponent felt a tinge of fear and he now knows why.
That seems to be exactly what he's saying.
What kind of power gamer is he? Low power?
In order to cast enlarge person, the guy must have charisma 11 or up - which is considerably higher than a real power-gamer would go for the non-essential charisma in a barbarian. I think the respectable (if that word can be applied) min-maxer munchkins suggest a charisma score of 7 at the very most.
That means giving up better scores in the more important stats, for bonuses you only get a short time each day.
Also, they either need to eschew armour or risk spell failure - take feats that reduce it, or use metamagic rods.
I'd go with cleric, or oracle, or magus, since all of those classes offer more compatibility with the barbarian and abilities beside one spell.
What kind of power gamer is he? Low power?
In order to cast enlarge person, the guy must have charisma 11 or up - which is considerably higher than a real power-gamer would go for the non-essential charisma in a barbarian. I think the respectable (if that word can be applied) min-maxer munchkins suggest a charisma score of 7 at the very most.
That means giving up better scores in the more important stats, for bonuses you only get a short time each day.
Also, they either need to eschew armour or risk spell failure - take feats that reduce it, or use metamagic rods.
I'd go with cleric, or oracle, or magus, since all of those classes offer more compatibility with the barbarian and abilities beside one spell.
He could utilize the Empyreal Wildblood to be a WIS based caster (i.e. the one stat you might opt to have at a 10 or better on a Barbarian...maybe), but I'm sticking with my "just get potions" option.
Why didn't he just get an item to cast enlarge person?
The Arcane Spell Failure from Armor is the big kicker here...
Unless you pull in 3.5 Battle Sorceror Archetype to modify the Sorceror level, that is a major cramp in actually using the spells. Unless he is only taking the level so he can more easily use scrolls/wands... which is even more questionable, power-wise. Even with Battle Sorceror, you are limiting yourself to Mithril Breastplate, when a 1 level Fighter dip could be giving you Mithril Fullplate instead. Battle Sorceror is arguably a good dip Class though.
Oracle or Cleric are just way more useful dips for this, because they don`t suffer from ASF%. Fundamentally, while it may be a useful and powerful effect, it`s an effect that ANYBODY can easily get via Potion, Scrolls (UMD), allies casting it on them, etc. If you take a Familiar (via Skill Focus:Knowledge and Eldritch Heritage, min CHA = 13) the Familiar can do this for you (administer Potion or Cast Scroll via UMD). So it`s not actually that disruptive of an effect to actual game-play, since Enlarge Persons should hardly be a rare thing in anything but some variant low-magic game world. And how many times per day can he do this? 4? If you are running 15 min adventuring days, that`s alot, but if you have lots of encounters that definitely won`t cover them all... Much less encounters that illusions or run away, wasting any buffs...
Honestly, I think the OP is just taken by surprise because this sort of thing is just not imagined as normally possible in the games he plays, even though it`s the most obvious of choices (if not always the most optimized, etc) by many others. The rules make this laughably easy to accomplish for a reason: it`s not considered over-powered.
Actually, ( to AM BARBARIAN ) once you take a level dip to oracle, and there seems to be a proliferation of fatigue spells, then you may as well do another dip or 3. The one dip and two dip are functionally the same : a lost rage power and lowered MAX rage abilities. Consider Ranger with a common favourite enemy?? If going Oracle1 X3 consider weapon master for Gloves of Dueling.
Why didn't he just get an item to cast enlarge person?
I`m guessing because that costs money.
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Actually, ( to AM BARBARIAN ) once you take a level dip to oracle, and there seems to be a proliferation of fatigue spells, then you may as well do another dip or 3. The one dip and two dip are functionally the same : a lost rage power and lowered MAX rage abilities. Consider Ranger with a common favourite enemy?? If going Oracle1 X3 consider weapon master for Gloves of Dueling.
IDEAS AM INTRIGUING. HAVE NEWSLETTER? BARBARIAN AM SUBSCRIBE.
Well, if there's one class you can just pop into it is sorcerer. The requirements are basically something your great grandpappy did, and some people are late bloomers.
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He'd have probably been better off arranging an tactical plan with an existing arcane spellcaster to cast enlarge on him during the first round/ prior to combat. That's what teamwork is all about.
It`s not at all crazy to consider ways of accomplishing low-level buffs yourself.
The party casters probably have other equally-or-more useful things they could spend their actions on.
Out-of-character (and IN!), casters spending their focus of actions and spells known solely to make another character more powerful may not interest everybody.
It is conceivable that if he rolled abilities his lowest stat may not be all that low.
I don't allow point buy because I like to avoid min maxing. Generally I find my players are much happier rolling abilities than point buy.
Back in 3.5 I played a Barbarian/Sorcerer who was able to caste his own Enlarge Person, Bull's Str and Bear's Con.
I feel it was a good idea that was actually a bit ineffective. Each round buffing was a round not doing damage to the foe. There would be times when the fight was over, or I could go in and do a bunch of damage to foes with only 5 hp remaining.
I think now that maybe I had too many levels in Sorcerer.
With Pathfinder I'd be tempted to go the other way, a Sorcerer with a dip into Barbarian. Fast Movement for better battlefield placement, and Rage for when you want to go melee. Cast a buff, a debuff, a blast, then mop them up with you Dragon bloodlines claws.
The DC to use a wand without taking a dip into sorcerer is 20.
At 5th level with 5 ranks +1 cha, +3 skill focus = +9. you have a 50 50 chance of wasting your action. You can easily toss a trait on there to add +3 trained and give yourself a 65% chance of success, but that's still rather unacceptable for the sheer number of rounds you'll stand there doing nothing for a while.
If you're starting at 10th level, sure, a feat makes a better deal. But if you're not starting at 10th you'll be playing with the inability to enlarge for quite some time.
Enlarge is often worth the round to cast. On the first round of combat I usually see people taking 1 attack anyway, and with reach you can usually get an AOO to make up for that.
Magus might be better but sorcerer isn't horrible. The magus is new and people may not have the book/be aware he exists.
and I think your first move action to get between the squishies and the hostiles is too important to give up
-Isn't that where the meat shield starts the fight?
Enlarge is REALLY good for a meat shield. You turn it from a meat shield occupying 5 feet and threatening 15 feet across to being a 10 foot wall of meat that occupies 10 feet but threatens 30 feet across. You only draw the aoo as you start to cast, so monsters running up to you only get the one whack.. but i agree that making that concentration check might be a problem if they hit you (and ac is usually a problem for a barbarian)
A wand you can use by virtue of your 1 level of sorcerer stops those problems, no concentration checks, no aoo, no arcane spell failure chance.
You could have a party chock full of arcanists but if none of them are team oriented you may not be getting your buffs.
I would also think that a 2 level dip into Alchemist(Vivisectionist) would be a more effective choice than a sorcerer.
Of the top of my head a barbarian who specializes in tripping needs a 13 Int anyway to get Improved Trip, and Enlarge Person goes great with tripping. Two levels of alchemist gets you enlarge person in potion form 3 times a day, 1d6 sneak attack, Mutagen for Nat AC and +4 to a stat, and a discovery. Initial thought would be Preserve Organs for a 25% avoidance against crts, this could be improved by spending a feat on extra discovery at a later point if you have a free feat.
And heck it wouldn't be too hard to figure out a fun roleplaying concept behind a wild man who creates his own disgusting brews. Though I still think that the battle oracle might be a slightly better dip to pick up enlarge person.
To answer the original question like many others, I would call him a suboptimal min/maxer.
The DC to use a wand without taking a dip into sorcerer is 20.
At 5th level with 5 ranks +1 cha, +3 skill focus = +9. you have a 50 50 chance of wasting your action. You can easily toss a trait on there to add +3 trained and give yourself a 65% chance of success, but that's still rather unacceptable for the sheer number of rounds you'll stand there doing nothing for a while.
If you're starting at 10th level, sure, a feat makes a better deal. But if you're not starting at 10th you'll be playing with the inability to enlarge for quite some time.
Enlarge is often worth the round to cast. On the first round of combat I usually see people taking 1 attack anyway, and with reach you can usually get an AOO to make up for that.
Magus might be better but sorcerer isn't horrible. The magus is new and people may not have the book/be aware he exists.
By 10th level the barbarian can have pounce, so even his first action can be a full attack.
Yeah this sort of class change bugs me when players do this. I've always been of the belief that you can't just "pick up" some of the classes (Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric, Paladin, etc) after 1st level without some story/plot/event related effect.
For instance in a game I was running the summoner used her Eidolon to trigger a powerful electrical trap which killed the Eidolon and banished it. So next session when she decided to pick up a level of Sorcerer, bloodline Blue Dragon I had no issue with it because the electrical trap was a catalyst for that.
If the barbarian picks up a level of sorcerer in a legitimate way sure, if he jut grabs it for Enlarge I'd be coughing "power gamer" <cough>.
90% of the time, I'd agree with you. The multiclass options in pathfinder are really too open, and I HATE when someone can just 'learn' to be a wizard in just a couple of weeks...
Sorcerers are a completley different animal though. They are pretty much Pathfinder X-men. Any given time you can have a couple of powers kick in and wonder where they came from.
By 10th level the barbarian can have pounce, so even his first action can be a full attack.
So can a barbarian 10 sorcerer 1. 10 levels of a tactic working seems like a pretty good investment.
preplanned builds and the 1 level delay share the same problem. they usually don't take into account the many variables that can affect a campaign. most theoretical optimization is done inside a vaccuum against prewritten static numbers.
preplanned builds and the 1 level delay share the same problem. they usually don't take into account the many variables that can affect a campaign. most theoretical optimization is done inside a vaccuum against prewritten static numbers.
I agree. I once planned on making an elf druid that specialized in archery, but he only got 2 archery feats because he had to pick up different feats as the campaign progressed. I eventually was a wand crafting counterspeller (it's fun negating fireballs with flamestrikes!).
Similarly, another PC played a wannabe Arcane Trickster, but had to delay entrance into that class because earlier in the campaign, he took fighter levels to boost his combat effectiveness. We got up to 16th level, and we were always surprised when he would pull out a sneak attacking disintegrate because we always thought of him as a magical dabbler that mostly did knife-work.
By 10th level the barbarian can have pounce, so even his first action can be a full attack.So can a barbarian 10 sorcerer 1. 10 levels of a tactic working seems like a pretty good investment.
Well, yes, but not if he's going to Enlarge first off. And if he's not going to cast that or another buff in combat, then why did he take the sorcerer dip?