"They didn't take any preparations when selecting gear and spells and such to make it possible to retreat from a too-tough fight" is not a reason people choose to have their characters fight to the death every single time. It's just saying they made the decision to fight everything to the death every time before the adventure even started.
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Weird, my post shows up in my recent posts but not in this thread...
Anyway the bit I can copy and paste from the search is:
You could Withdraw over difficult terrain so the foe cannot charge to catch up and attack. Or you could withdraw around a corner so that there is not a clear path to you. If you can interpose anything, even an ally, you can get away most likely, or at least prevent him attacking you if he follows. ... Obviously you can't always do this, but environments should allow some cover and obstacles
The emergency potion of fly doesn't work too well if you're stuck in a fight and need to flee or die.
Five foot step back. Move action to pull it out. Standard to drink it.
What an amazing escape!
Then the enemies get a full round on you.
Most things move faster than a human.
EVERYTHING moves faster than a halfling.
Your options are leave your friends behind, run with the halfling and check your encumbered, or fight to the last man.
Pet the halfling wishes he'd skipped on elevensies a few times...
With that said, we have had a few "run away" moments. Fighting a zombie and some mummies in a narrow passage comming off of a room. The fighter rogue went down, the fighter sorcerer was low, the fighter druid on a pony played meat shield, dismounted, let the pony play meat shield, got the fighter/rogue up , hopped back on the pony, meat shielded and took out a few with the lance, cast spiderclimb on the pony and beat feet
Oh, another one! Why don't more people carry a morningstar? Sure, it's not the best primary weapon around...but it's just about the best backup for special materials, what with bludgeoning and slashing (and, not or), a decent damage die, one hand (so works with a shield or two-handing), and it's simple so most everyone is proficient.
In fact, the only potentially better all-purpose backup weapon is the monk's spade, with all three damage types (as or, though, not and), but it's always two-handed, has a lower damage die, is martial, and didn't exist until UC.
It's bludgeon/pierce but your right all my characters carry one of these.
It's bludgeon/pierce but your right all my characters carry one of these.Oh, another one! Why don't more people carry a morningstar? Sure, it's not the best primary weapon around...but it's just about the best backup for special materials, what with bludgeoning and slashing (and, not or), a decent damage die, one hand (so works with a shield or two-handing), and it's simple so most everyone is proficient.
In fact, the only potentially better all-purpose backup weapon is the monk's spade, with all three damage types (as or, though, not and), but it's always two-handed, has a lower damage die, is martial, and didn't exist until UC.
Heh, that's what I get for writing it while only half paying attention (the intent was that it covers the other two not covered by slashing, since most people take slashing weapons of some sort).
I was not trying to say running away is never possible.
However, it is often not possible. And usually it is not possible without leaving someone behind {sigh, usually tank me}.
I can think of only one encounter over the last 2 campaigns where we were even seriously considering running that the opponent wasn't faster, flying, or magicly powerful enough that most of us could run away.
On 2 other occasions we tried and the GM was nice enough to not chase us. But we could not have got away if he did.
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The emergency potion of fly doesn't work too well if you're stuck in a fight and need to flee or die.
Five foot step back. Move action to pull it out. Standard to drink it.
What an amazing escape!
Then the enemies get a full round on you.
You don't use a fly potion when you have 1 hit point left.
You don't wait to do a tactical retreat till you can be downed by a single normal attack.If you are forced to depend on a potion to survive you don't use the fly potion the first round, you use a invisibility potion.
And so on.
If you want to use the tactical retreat option you prepare for it.
Which doesn't actually prevent PCs from taking it. Players just rarely hear about it and so don't think to take it.
... take the feat Ability Focus? You're character had unique class abilities, why not make them good at them? Stunning Blow, Channel P/N Energy, Death Attack, almost any feat that makes your enemy make a saving throw? Might as well add a +2 to the DC.Monster Feat. Inexplicably.
My GM wouldn't allow it for my monk. Annoying, too. I'd taken it and Awesome Blow back in 3.5. Some days I think he just enjoys saying "No." :P
Great thread, guys. I'll catch up real quick like first, then contribute.
...If you want to use the tactical retreat option you prepare for it.
That is an excellent point. And a forward thinking, prepared group would try to do that. However, what I was pointing out is that very few groups that I have played with have done that prep work.
The original question was "why don't more people..."
That is ONE of the reasons they don't run.
Sometimes they can't. yes you are correct if they had done enough prep planning and purchased the correct backup magics, they might have been able to. But they didn't so they can't.
...How long do your fights usually last? How long does it take for them to go completely pear-shaped, especially when you're up against a more powerful enemy?
Another excellent point that I forgot about. My last group was fairly 'glass cannon-ish'. Most of our fights were 4 rounds max. That doesn't give a lot of time to realize you are losing and do something about it.
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Full attack that thing that just grappled them.You can full attack in a grapple with anything other than a two-handed weapon, and you still threaten. This is incredibly good to know as opposed to being stuck in 3.5 mode and saying "Oh, now I can only try to escape. I failed, guess I do nothing."
... Hate to burst your bubble, but I really don't think it works like that. I'd be very interested to hear your case, though.
Why don't more people:
Edit:
Another excellent point that I forgot about. My last group was fairly 'glass cannon-ish'. Most of our fights were 4 rounds max. That doesn't give a lot of time to realize you are losing and do something about it.
This is a good point. +1.
1) My players always do this and I do it to my players. Makes casting much harder to do in combat but use up resources if the caster doesn't cast that round.
2) Getting up from prone is too much of pain if you get surrounded so it' no done often.
3) If the players have a chance to cast touch spells before combat begins they do this.
Use longswords/warhammers/battleaxes two handed? The free hand is worth a lot, and on average you're usually losing one to two damage from the dice; admittedly moreso in the case of greatswords. I find the free hand definately has its perks, however. As does having an enchanted shield. You can grapple at a -4 penalty, grab objects, hold a potion, rope or wand at the ready...Greatswords are fine and all, but boring. I wish they didnt have a place at my table.
You can just give up your attack and HOLD a two handed sword one handed if its that important.
Use a lance while mounted? (And otherwise, it doubles as a longspear) Even with no feat investment I see no reason not to.
If you are not a class with an animal companion any mount you buy with have the longevity of keg at spring break.
Ready vs. approach. Manipulating choke points, using trip and stand still to act as a buffer rather then charging at the nearest enemy, letting them come into range... It has its uses.
Because quite often people who want to think dont play the fighter.
You have to build your character to do this to make it really effective.Delay? Especially for rogues. Those sneak attacks are important.
Running in and getting the first sneak before the for has acted is important too.
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... Hate to burst your bubble, but I really don't think it works like that. I'd be very interested to hear your case, though.
What makes you think you can't full attack when grappled? The "If you are grappled" section of the rules states "Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform" - if you are wielding a weapon in a single hand you can make iterative attacks. This was confirmed in the Paizo Blog entry Outmaneuvered II: Revenge of the Grappled
What makes you think you don't threaten when grappled? Grappled condition states that "Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity" but it doesn't say that you do not threaten and so you can still provide flanking bonus (especially as in PF you don't share the same square as the opponent when grappling).
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Charging was just one example. Difficult terrain doesn't hinder ranged attacks. Or spells. Or fliers. So again difficult terrain hinders withdrawing more than it does the attackers.
I get the idea that you never think retreating is a good idea, fine, there are some of us who do and can think of situations where retreating is possible - for example in a dungeon withdrawing back out through a door which is then shut and barred by two fellow PCs who had readied actions and had previously withdrawn. That is just one example - but basically to negate ranged attacks, spells fliers etc - just try to break line of sight.
Seriously, although not all situations make retreating a possible action, that doesn't mean retreating is never possible.
And this isn't even going into the general "if we don't beat this guy now something really nasty happens" roleplaying element.
Again, in that situation if the "nasty thing" really is just about to happen then yes, even if you only have a 1 in a 1000 chance to prevail go for it. But if that "nasty thing" will happen in the next day or two, then retreating and retrying with a better strategy is likely better than staying and hoping for that 1 in a 100 chance.
Seriously, sometimes you can retreat, sometimes you can't. retreating is never a certainty but then staying and winning is never a certainty either.
... Hate to burst your bubble, but I really don't think it works like that. I'd be very interested to hear your case, though.What makes you think you can't full attack when grappled? The "If you are grappled" section of the rules states "Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform" - if you are wielding a weapon in a single hand you can make iterative attacks. This was confirmed in the Paizo Blog entry Outmaneuvered II: Revenge of the Grappled
What makes you think you don't threaten when grappled? Grappled condition states that "Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity" but it doesn't say that you do not threaten and so you can still provide flanking bonus (especially as in PF you don't share the same square as the opponent when grappling).
Well, I'll be damned. As the player of a grappler monk, me and my GM have both been under the impression that both parties need to roll grapple checks to make a (single) attack. Not only this but you can attack with a one handed weapon in both cases. Very cool.
Well, I'll be damned. As the player of a grappler monk, me and my GM have both been under the impression that both parties need to roll grapple checks to make a (single) attack. Not only this but you can attack with a one handed weapon in both cases. Very cool.... Hate to burst your bubble, but I really don't think it works like that. I'd be very interested to hear your case, though.What makes you think you can't full attack when grappled? The "If you are grappled" section of the rules states "Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform" - if you are wielding a weapon in a single hand you can make iterative attacks. This was confirmed in the Paizo Blog entry Outmaneuvered II: Revenge of the Grappled
What makes you think you don't threaten when grappled? Grappled condition states that "Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity" but it doesn't say that you do not threaten and so you can still provide flanking bonus (especially as in PF you don't share the same square as the opponent when grappling).
Make sure you get it right, only the grappled can make full attacks. The grappler can only make a single attack because it takes a standard action to maintain the grapple which also lets you make a single attack at the same time. Basically you don't want to grapple anything that has small arms (physically or weapon-ly) and the ability to beat your face in. Of course if you pin them, it makes it easier for a creature without a Dex bonus greater than +2 to escape.
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On the subject of running away: Obviously this is more a point for DMs, but just because the bad guys might have the upper hand at the moment doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to pursue the PCs if they flee. After all, if a bunch of dangerous miscreants attacked me at home and I managed to drive them off, I don't think my first instinct would be to chase after them.
Make sure you get it right, only the grappled can make full attacks. The grappler can only make a single attack because it takes a standard action to maintain the grapple which also lets you make a single attack at the same time. Basically you don't want to grapple anything that has small arms (physically or weapon-ly) and the ability to beat your face in. Of course if you pin them, it makes it easier for a creature without a Dex bonus greater than +2 to escape.Well, I'll be damned. As the player of a grappler monk, me and my GM have both been under the impression that both parties need to roll grapple checks to make a (single) attack. Not only this but you can attack with a one handed weapon in both cases. Very cool.... Hate to burst your bubble, but I really don't think it works like that. I'd be very interested to hear your case, though.What makes you think you can't full attack when grappled? The "If you are grappled" section of the rules states "Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform" - if you are wielding a weapon in a single hand you can make iterative attacks. This was confirmed in the Paizo Blog entry Outmaneuvered II: Revenge of the Grappled
What makes you think you don't threaten when grappled? Grappled condition states that "Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity" but it doesn't say that you do not threaten and so you can still provide flanking bonus (especially as in PF you don't share the same square as the opponent when grappling).
Yeah not a fan of the grapple rules, it is of my opinion that they need a massive rewrite. My group house rules them pretty heavily.
You can just give up your attack and HOLD a two handed sword one handed if its that important.
Yes, but that's -BORING- :P
The difference, I find, is being able to fight AND keep these options at the ready. It isn't huge, but my experience with Magus' and Bards tells me that the damage gap doesn't make that big a difference in the long run.
I ran an NPC fighter who weilded a longsword and used improved grapple. I'd initially just tried to make him as white bread as possible, but actually found he was all kinds of awesome. (And is especially moreso now that he can use his longsword in a grapple, thanks again for the link, DigitalMage!).
It was wonderful to discover again that the world did not need to be divided into greatswords and falcatas.
If you are not a class with an animal companion any mount you buy with have the longevity of keg at spring break.
I was acting under the assumption that the party will all be mounted. This is a common occurance at my table when we're travelling, and often it isnt worth the action to dismount. I do, however, disagree completely on your dismissal of store-bought mounts (much like the store-bought animals mentioned earlier. These are gold.) They have their merits, even if treated as a mobile charge platform. So I'll apologize in advance, I'm not trying to stir up an argument. I think this is a relevent point for this thread.
The crappiness of mounts is usually a non issue at my table. We usually play in the mid-level range. About level 6-9, and I won't deny it's probably a non option at higher levels. But consider that the mount won't be used in every fight. Indeed, my group only uses them once travelling, assuming we have no alternative means and are on the material plane. This means, at best, we're mounted for 5% of encounters.
Consider the amount of money these characters will have. Consider then the price of a top-of-the-line combat trained warhorse. 300gp. By third level, this is a tenth of a characters wealth by level. Still a sizeable investment to be sure, but the cost quickly becomes irrelevent. Later, you can add 600gp for chainmail barding.
Consider then the damage spike from doubling the strength and power attack bonuses meleers rely on so heavily. From 18 str and +8BAB you're looking at at least 19.5 average damage. Almost 40hp. Consider then the effects of vital strike on this equation. (Again, ymmv. I know some GMs don't allow it in a charge)
Mages should give you pause, but a lucky initiative roll, a run action, or paying another 300gp and walking will alleviate this problem.
Because quite often people who want to think dont play the fighter. You have to build your character to do this to make it really effective.
As a proud player of both a thinking fighter and a thinking calavier, I resent that. :P
Running in and getting the first sneak before the for has acted is important too.
And here, I must concede, you're right. I was getting ahead of myself. I'm a big fan of the delay action, as it saved my rogues in 3.5 when we went up against undead, and ignoring it saw the death of my monk for my hubris.
Back to the topic at hand, has nobody mentioned the Bear Trap from the Adventurer's Armory? For a mere 2gp, you can deal some decent damage and halve an enemies speed (or immobilize him completely with the aid of some pitons). Alternatively, lace it with poison for a +10 to hit trap that will cripple your enemy completely.
Make sure you get it right, only the grappled can make full attacks. The grappler can only make a single attack because it takes a standard action to maintain the grapple which also lets you make a single attack at the same time. Basically you don't want to grapple anything that has small arms (physically or weapon-ly) and the ability to beat your face in. Of course if you pin them, it makes it easier for a creature without a Dex bonus greater than +2 to escape.Yeah not a fan of the grapple rules, it is of my opinion that they need a massive rewrite. My group house rules them pretty heavily.
Yeah, I was noting that. It's a big nerf to my monk (who's currently impaled somewhere in the lower planes, so its not really an immediate problem) but he has other ways to shut things down. STR-whoring and stunning fist, for a start.
I've never much liked the weakness of Pin in that respect, but I'm erring towards off-topic here.
Its value is questionable in that I've never seen these rules in play in five years of gaming, but I'd say its worth dropping in here too. Why people don't use it is easy to work out, but melee'rs of all colours CAN benefit from it. Who knows, maybe other tables are different.
Back to the topic at hand, has nobody mentioned the Bear Trap from the Adventurer's Armory? For a mere 2gp, you can deal some decent damage and halve an enemies speed (or immobilize him completely with the aid of some pitons). Alternatively, lace it with poison for a +10 to hit trap that will cripple your enemy completely.
The ridiculous stats(especially in comparison to an actual bear trap) gets that one laughed away at every table I've ever sat at. Of course, if you can actually get away with using it than you need to make a Lumberjack character who specializes in "Havin' an axe and layin' some traps." and proceed to wreck shop. Especially once you invent your bear trap launcher.
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... once you invent your bear trap launcher.
Great googly moogly NOOOOOOOOO ! ! !
Ooookay. Apparently the answer to "Why don't more people retreat?" is "Lots of people think a TPK is a superior result to leaving an ally behind."
Ooookay. Apparently the answer to "Why don't more people retreat?" is "Lots of people think a TPK is a superior result to leaving an ally behind."
Or getting punched in the back repeatedly by something with twice your movement speed (being most things)
Ooookay. Apparently the answer to "Why don't more people retreat?" is "Lots of people think a TPK is a superior result to leaving an ally behind."
My third level mage was once the only survivor of a TPK. He excaped through a combination of expedious retreat and levitate in order to jump down mountain away from an army of Gnolls.
Ooookay. Apparently the answer to "Why don't more people retreat?" is "Lots of people think a TPK is a superior result to leaving an ally behind."
Well, no. You're selectively reading that post.
The more important part is that, in practice, you often cannot realistically escape what's killing you.
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If you are not a class with an animal companion any mount you buy with have the longevity of keg at spring break.I was acting under the assumption that the party will all be mounted. This is a common occurance at my table when we're travelling, and often it isnt worth the action to dismount. I do, however, disagree completely on your dismissal of store-bought mounts (much like the store-bought animals mentioned earlier. These are gold.) They have their merits, even if treated as a mobile charge platform. So I'll apologize in advance, I'm not trying to stir up an argument. I think this is a relevent point for this thread.
The crappiness of mounts is usually a non issue at my table. We usually play in the mid-level range. About level 6-9, and I won't deny it's probably a non option at higher levels. But consider that the mount won't be used in every fight. Indeed, my group only uses them once travelling, assuming we have no alternative means and are on the material plane. This means, at best, we're mounted for 5% of encounters.
Consider the amount of money these characters will have. Consider then the price of a top-of-the-line...
Getting some way to add temporary hit points to the mounts will help a bit.
At high level heroes feast will work.I don't remember any usable low level spell (sadly False life is personal).
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Why people with low Will saves don't buy potions of protection from [alignment]?
And why spellcaster rarely memorize it and magic circle against [alignment]?
Protection from Evil
Duration 1 min./level (D)...
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
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Complete protection for 1 minute from several commonly used Enchantment spells like dominate and charm for 50 gp. A bargain.
Sure, quaffing the potion will cut into your action economy or the duration will be shortened if you drink it before the encounter, but still here are plenty of situations where it will come handy.
Magic circle against [alignment] will cost 750 gp but it will last 50 minutes and if some friend fail a ST you can give him a reroll simply getting near him.
In most adventures you know the probable alignment of your adversary, so it is not hard to guess the right alignment against which you need to be warded.
You can just give up your attack and HOLD a two handed sword one handed if its that important.Yes, but that's -BORING- :P
Its effective. The longsword doesn't do as much damage, hence its a sub optimal option, hence why people aren't doing it.
The difference, I find, is being able to fight AND keep these options at the ready. It isn't huge, but my experience with Magus' and Bards tells me that the damage gap doesn't make that big a difference in the long run.
I don't see the difference. You do not need two hands to HOLD a two handed sword. You only need two hands to WIELD it ie, use it in combat. Most situations where you need two hands you'd have to drop the weapon either way, and if you only need one hand you're find with the two hander in the other.
I ran an NPC fighter who weilded a longsword and used improved grapple.
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.
I was acting under the assumption that the party will all be mounted. This is a common occurance at my table when we're travelling, and often it isnt worth the action to dismount.
-Fighting on the mount requires a DC 5 ride check with an armor check penalty or you loose your action with the lance if you have a shield out.
-Chainmail won't help the horse much, even at that level the monsters can't miss. The horse has 24? hp , which won't survive an incoming fireball, or make a will save against fear.
Back to the topic at hand, has nobody mentioned the Bear Trap from the Adventurer's Armory? For a mere 2gp, you can deal some decent damage and halve an enemies speed (or immobilize him completely with the aid of some pitons). Alternatively, lace it with poison for a +10 to hit trap that will cripple your enemy completely.
Because its in teh adventurer's armory.
well since you seemingly choose to fight your opponent on a football field totally devoid of cover/difficult terrain, you die like you to deserve to for fighting an enemy on such a poor location unless you possess the speed advantage.You mean the terrain that will hinder me just as much as it will him? But regardless, this is only one example of why running away doesn't work. Ranged attacks, spells, monsters with superior mobility, locations with limited mobility, and tons of other factors combine into making running away a REALLY poor option.
not even close, as you are getting a double move away that can be in any direction and through any terrain, you move over one piece of hindering terrain and now they can't charge you, you step behind a tree, again they can't charge you and now they can't hit you with ranged attacks, and so on and so on. Your fleeing is not hindered by cover or terrain where as their charges and ranged attacks are. Again if you are fighting in an area without any of these things, then you choose poorly and you get to die on your feet, hoorah!
All of these other factors, you can control as well, so that is a wash, you have access to magical doohickeys, spells, and tons of other factors that will combine to mean that running away is possible and sometimes be a REALLY good option.
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Buy/train/Use animals other than class given companions. I had a ranger with a dog animal companion and I bought him two friends and trained them myself. DM thought I was cheating somehow. I bought a heavy warhorse a little later, and an elephant later after that. None of these animals were my animal companion..
Every dog requires 10 lbs of feed (meat) each day per RAW. I understand that elephants require much, much more than this IRL, but I'm not sure that the rules cover it. Anyway, that's 10 per day per pet, at a minimum, for anything that doesn't graze. So while I might hand-wave this away for an independently-acting creature with an almost-human-intelligence, I'd be wary of too many pets being allowed.
I used to do chores as a kid, so I know what a PITA this can really be.
:)
Back to the topic at hand, has nobody mentioned the Bear Trap from the Adventurer's Armory? For a mere 2gp, you can deal some decent damage and halve an enemies speed (or immobilize him completely with the aid of some pitons). Alternatively, lace it with poison for a +10 to hit trap that will cripple your enemy completely.Because its in teh adventurer's armory.
Correction... because it's in the Advanced Player's Guide. There is no Adventurer's Armory, only Zuul.
Every dog requires 10 lbs of feed (meat) each day per RAW.
does it have to be raw per RAW?
Could you cite this? That seems.. wildly inaccurate.
Leaving people behind is one of the reasons retreating is a poor option. It is hardly the only one.
It's the only one that explains why no one talking about how impossible it is to retreat seems to consider such basic tactics as "someone stays behind to cover the others' retreat".