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I have heard it said that they are underwhelming, though looking at them I see they have lots of useful abilities, at least seemingly.
What would be the simplest fix, what do they really need to have a clear role? Full BAB? Better passive abilities? For my campaign.
This again...
Monks are fine if you design them properly.
However the suggested change I have made is to give them bonus physical ability points at appropriate levels (perhaps every 4 levels you can add one to Str, Con, or Dex in addition the regular bonus you get already).
This would fit in thematically (class pursuing physical perfection) while addressing what seems the major concern (Multi-Ability Dependent)
That being said...a well made monk can do just fine.
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I am probably reading it wrong, but I am confused by your line:
(+8 two handed, -2 attack +15 damage power attack two handed
My understanding is Flurry prevents you getting 2h Str bonus, and while you still get the +3 damage with PA, how do you have +15 Power attack? Is it not +6 at lvl 10 or maybe +9 by then?
So without Flurry it would be 1d8+8+6, with Flurry 1d8+6+6.
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ANyway, I think Monks have been an unloved child of the game for a while, but I also feel thanks to all the extra options given them in Ultimate Combat they are far better than they were
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-Full BAB.
-In consequence, change up Maneuver Training to grant a bonus equal to 1/2 monk level to maneuvers, replacing the obsolete 'Use a full BAB for maneuvers'
-Allow them to enchant their unarmed strike directly.
-Their Fast Movement bonus is untyped.
-Wholeness of body is a swift action.
-Since flurry works like TWF, it uses my fix for TWF: you can get the full effect as a full attack, or, you can attack once with each weapon involved as a standard action.
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Take your pick:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/monk.html
It fills the role you want him to fill. Want to be the maneuver master? Go for it.
Want to become hard to kill pain in the butt? Master of Many Styles is a great option. Crane style helps you live, add Panther into that so you can run around begging for attacks of opportunity. Or even Turtle for more AC.
Want to be the controller of the battle field? Get yourself in the thick of things with the Flowing Monk and put people where you want them, help set up flanks and sneak attacks for your allies.
Or better yet, always had an odd dream of being Mr. Miagi? Go Sensai and dish out the Bard love as a monk!
There are a lot of choices out there now, most of which vastly improve upon the vanilla monk.
I have to admit my monk experience is limited and so am not great at building one, but I would love to try the Many Styles monk to do a good split of defense and offense, though I admit the loss of Flurry concerns me.
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That said, there are some things that need to be done for monks - mainly full BAB. It has always annoyed me that they don't have this.
Also, I agree with Revan in terms of TWF. Course that is a game issue not just monks. But personally we always rule that 2 attacks are doable in a round if you have 2 weapons.
Also, for the love of god make Wholeness of Body a swift action. Given how underwhelming it is anyway it is outrageous that it takes a standard action to do. Why the Paladin LoH got vastly improved (deservedly so) while the monks self heal remained crap I don't understand
Full Bab.
Then I'd give them an option to be able to get the Vital Strike from their bonus feats.
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I am probably reading it wrong, but I am confused by your line:
(+8 two handed, -2 attack +15 damage power attack two handedMy understanding is Flurry prevents you getting 2h Str bonus, and while you still get the +3 damage with PA, how do you have +15 Power attack? Is it not +6 at lvl 10 or maybe +9 by then?
So without Flurry it would be 1d8+8+6, with Flurry 1d8+6+6.
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ANyway, I think Monks have been an unloved child of the game for a while, but I also feel thanks to all the extra options given them in Ultimate Combat they are far better than they were
I think it is very debatable.
The flurry rule says:
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
Which may seem overpowered until you consider you are trading your ability to stun with your hands for doing more damage with a weapon. And I can't think of a reason to add "wielded in both hands" specifically if it didn't have some sort of advantage.
If you don't want to give the 1.5 (which is a reasonable argument), the wording for power attack is "This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls"
Probably worth an FAQ if it wasn't answered elsewhere, but I don't know why they would allow you to wield a weapon in two hands if there were no benefit for doing so.
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Probably worth an FAQ if it wasn't answered elsewhere, but I don't know why they would allow you to wield a weapon in two hands if there were no benefit for doing so.The same reason improved unarmed strike can represent blows with any part of the body. For the fluff.
edit: not that I don't think power attack would work RAW, but I don't think anyone even thought of it since all core monk weapons are light or double.
Quarterstaff or Temple Sword can be wielded two handed. It's a grey area that hopefully the Devs will clear up.
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If you are using Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat, I sincerely think monk don't need anything more.
The vanilla monk sucks so much it hurts, but with all those feats/archetypes (especially Style feats, all the new feats to do awesome things when using unarmed strikes, and the Qinggong monk), sincerely, now I'm always wondering if a level in monk - or just taking the Improved Unarmed Strike - isn't worth it for giving a special touch of coolness in a new character.
I'm playing a 12 level monk with 8 Dex and 25 base AC (34 when barkskined and with 1 ki point), qinggong drunken master of the moutain's lotus, and even if I deal 2d8+8 damage on average, I'm having a lot of fun with him. Sure, I'm subpar since I didn't optimize like hell, but I can also put out one enemy out of the fight/round thanks to Touch of Serenity (DD21) or True Strike-d spring attack & disarm, with a +42 to BMC, or just absorb hits and recover HPs each round. The last time I ran out of Ki was the seven of our group against 24 enemies including an archer boss and three wizards.
A well-built monk isn't weak. They sure could benefit from a little boost (like full BAB), but if you don't intend to beat the fighter in DPR or the wizard in versatility, then you're all right. :)
Since I think monks are basically fine as written, my ideas are not so much changes to the class, but rather alterations of other areas of the game.
First read Trentmonks guide to monks.
Allow brass knuckles (or whatever similar items) to be used to augment unarmed strikes. That way a monk can have a +1 cold iron unarmed strike without spending tones of gp.
Create a few specific magic items for monks to use.
Encourage someone in the party to cast mage armor and later displacement on the monk. Monks really benefit from having a few extra bonuses.
Apply ability score maximum limits when you start a campaign:
No score over 17 (or 18) and perhaps a minimum of 10.
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Give them ways to enhance their unarmed strike directly in a way that fits their flavor and doesn't funnel their flurry of blows into punch-punch-punch-punch. Make it so that they can do it themselves.
Give them an alternate Vow of Poverty option that would bring them just under par for a standard monk. The Vow should give them more, but it should also be a real vow of povert as well. No flavor-breaking "one magic item allowed" clause.
More Qinggong powers to fit thematic gaps caused by archetype/style incompatibilities and silly alignment tagging in Ultimate Magic.
Wholeness of Body should be a swift action considering how much it heals.
Full BAB, because as has been said thousands of times, this is a class of people that have trained extensively in the art of hitting people.
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-Full BAB.
-In consequence, change up Maneuver Training to grant a bonus equal to 1/2 monk level to maneuvers, replacing the obsolete 'Use a full BAB for maneuvers'
-Allow them to enchant their unarmed strike directly.
-Their Fast Movement bonus is untyped.
-Wholeness of body is a swift action.
-Since flurry works like TWF, it uses my fix for TWF: you can get the full effect as a full attack, or, you can attack once with each weapon involved as a standard action.
this + doesnt lose abilities in light armor.
so a monk can wear a friggen quilted cloth robe
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My friends and I must be retarded or something, because we are doing it wrong.
Our monks all typically have the highest AC, or very near to it (within 1 or 2 points) and usually with flanking, charging and buffs hit with at or within 1 of the full BAB fighters.
But then, I see so many here that whine about how much Monks suck.
Its good to know that I can come here and find out how to build the sucky monks that everyone else apparently plays.
I would allow monks a BAB equal to their level when using monk weapons unarmed strikes.
Also, I would nerf casters in general by making many 5th level and higher spells full round actions to cast (with the occasional exception. Power word spells don't really make a lot of sense as FRAs). If you want to cast an encounter dominating spell, you should have to really work at it and worry that it will be interrupted.
If I saw a group of monks, I would do nothing to them... for fear of getting punched in the face.
Seriously, ultimate combat has made monks so cool. I would change the ENTIRE rule that does not allow full attacks + move. This would benefit monks greatly.
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Absolutely under no circumstances give them full BAB. The monk is not a martial class.
Of course monks are a martial class. So are Rogues for that matter, being reliant on weapons, physical attacks, and personal skill in place of magic. But I digress. If the person who has spent their life training in esoteric martial arts techniques and honing their body into a perfect weapon doesn't deserve a full BAB, then neither does the street thug with little to no formal training (your average Fighter or Barbarian).
Besides, as it stands, they both do and don't have a full BAB at the same time, and that's just unconscionably messy.
I'm currently playing a 15th level Monk in a Savage Tide AP. His defenses are quite high, and will end the game in the mid-50s in AC I think. With the crane style feats, even now he's hard to hit. So this guy blocks the baddies, and protects the squishier PCs.
With all the supplements out right now, Monks don't need more than a few good options for all those powers that would go unused otherwise.
Good knowledge of the AP, and some forethought on the part of the player, will help in make a serious contender out of a Monk. It takes the sort of planning and forethought you might find when making a Sorcerer, to make a good Monk.
Know your archetypes, know your AP, and know yourself. You'll do fine.
Why do people think the Fighter doesn't have formal training? He's perfect at fighting. All he does it develop the body, mind, timing, and skill for fighting. He practices every weapon he can find and develops all of them to the highest level of his BAB. The monk on the other hand spends time meditating and performing kata and other crap while the fighter is getting stronger, sparing, fighting, or improving his technique. The fighters full time job is getting better at fighting. Killing people and constructing forts are his hobbies.
And all the monk does is hone his body and mind into an impregnable bastion and lethal weapon. His full time job is getting better at martial arts. Yet a guy who's really, really mad will be a more effective martial artist.
The fighter may get more feats, have better BAB and hit die than the monk but the fighter doesn't get still mind, wholeness of body, boost to base speed every few levels etc. I think alot of the class abilities in the monk class tend to be overlooked. While they are MAD, this just means you can't have it all or it'll be difficult to have it all. As for increasing BAB, I wouldn't recommend it. The class already gets enough. The two weapon fighting question was raised before in a game. A player just had a monk character with alot of attacks. In the description of the class, it didn't allow TWF stacking with flurry. An errata page which was produced by the player showed a stack of numbers, what could be attained with combining the two. The DM didn't allow it since the errata had no explanation of why it was allowed and the player got annoyed.
The reason why the monk shouldn't get the same BAB progression of the fighter or barbarian is simple. With everything the class gives, something has to give somewhere which falls to lower hit die, BAB progression as compared to the fighter or barb. The fighter, monk and barbarian classes are pretty balanced with each other but not if you up the monk class to having the same BAB progression or stack anymore bonuses onto the monk class.
It is the right feat selection that makes a monk good and tough, and making sure to use their skills, fighting according to the martial art you are trying to replicate. You've got to have something you are going for, trying to do, and be ready to use the benefits of your class. If you become agitated the monk does not have the bab or hp of the fighter and other melee, you are misunderstanding what a monk is, what the monk does, and how free the monk is from other classes requirements of items to be effective (except grappling melee characters, lol, which only need their hands and to be covered). The monk also gets very nice saves, in a sense is more balanced, but is not always as overpowering in melee as some builds.
I've found monks to be quite solid all rounders, and good at disarm, grapple or sunder if that is what the character is built around. Their ACs can get pretty impressive, especially if you are in an only moderate magic setting without magic items stores every two blocks, always past the halfling bakery.
TriOmegaZero, your description of the fighter sounds like a warrior. Or the rogue variant thug class in the quintessential rogue. A fighter doesn't have to be attached to a castle or keep, but they have to have had some contact and training with up to martial weapons, armour and shields or why would they have the proficiences? Their starting wealth is also quite good.
To be instructed in weapons and armour usage is quite a good level of education in many historical cultures (e.g. mamelukes). Be a soldier! Learn to fight with numerous weapons, learn teamwork and drill, get bread, don't starve today!
To me the things that a monk NEEDS to be an effective monk is the following. Whether they HAVE that or not is still open to debate, I've rolled a couple up... but I haven't actually PLAYED one yet.
1) Unarmed beat-downs. On the surface, Flurry of blows looks like it has this covered. If it does not... then they need to make it BETTER. But multiple attacks, and high unarmed damage look AWESOME to me. I've notice that the ki powers (which I HATE the idea of.. but that's a different story) allow you to bypass DR and act like magic... NOT sure what else they need....
2) HIGH AC. SERIOUSLY High AC. WITHOUT gear. Monks do not USE armor, because they duck and weave and spin and dodge and simply do NOT get hit. Adding TWO stats to the AC seems to help... (naturally adding bonuses TO those stats, but I HATE when characters NEED gear to compete.
A monk without armor should always be on par with warriors in mundane armor. The style feats SEEM to help with that... My 7th level monk I just made with turtle and crane styles.... don't QUITE seem to be on par yet...
Really, You hand me a monk set that can beat people senseless barehanded and dodge and twist like Jackie Chan... and I'm happy. Also toss the 'alignment requirements' on a very large, very hot pyre and watch it die.
I'm a fan of martial arts, and I love the 'nimble characters'. I want the Jackie Chan/Daredevil/nightwing types to be able to keep speed with the warriors in the magic rings/armor/jewelry etc.
Gear should make a character BETTER. It should not be NECESSARY to make them functional.
That's between me and the Monks.
Hmmm. If you implemented all those changes, the monk class will be mre powerful than the other classes. I'm not just talking about AC and damage.
Go high strengh monk with power attack, flying kick and improved grapple. The damage which is beng dished out will be nothing to laugh at let alone grappling which shuts down alot of things an opponent can do. If you want the AC, go multiple dodge feats and expertise. Sink the relevant feats in to make the character truly good at it. Comes down to feats and skill points to really specialize the character. A class shouldn't give a fair bit of everything to make any character in the class a notch above the other classes. The monk falls behind on damage and AC compared to a heavily armored fighter or barbarian because of the other bonuses the class gives and there are plenty. We shouldn't always look at classes based on AC and damage alone, discounting everything else.
Mmm, the ideas of movies do come into it though. Martial artists are glorified as nigh unstoppable juggernauts (ong bac, kick boxing films, Jet Li) or cannot be hit, always roll out of the way canny and quick types (jackie chan, some of the old hong kong action films). Problem is, dnd isn't the movies.
I have had to explain this to a player wanting more from the monk--that you cannot have it all, you must choose something that you want to do. Or to put it in a pop culture vein, you want Jackie Chan, but in a world with Jackie Chan there is also Conan the barbarian, Subotai, Eddard Stark, Jaime Lannister, Robin Hood, Yagyu swordsman and wild vaguely Norse-derived vikings.
Now Jackie Chan always was fun to watch, but he never went against a knight in plate. There should be balance, the eastern-based classes should not be superior to other types of combat classes.
For monk bab, it always made sense to me in this way. Turning the unarmed into a really effective weapon, say to do d8 or 2d6 is somewhat difficult, even with training. Got to get the right spot, got to use the amount of force etc etc, often punch through armour or thick hide, then the damage comes, but the bab is lower. What they are doing is harder and also ties to a monastic and philosophical tradition, they are not pure melee, but also contemplatives.
Those relying on weapons swing their forged and sharp steel, which works with their weapon focused training to carve people up, or smash them down. The layers of steel/plates/bands/leather protect them, but they are reliant on these tools, or feats with a touch of dex to keep them alive. The monk is autonomous, and doesn't need armour or weapons, he is singular, an individual, a fighter that uses ki, but cannot rely on luck and a steel helm to save his head. In a sense the other classes are quite crude and reliant on those tools. A monk can use some weapons, more if they burn feats, but then forgo them and go unarmed flurry when they wish or if the weapons are damaged/lost.
The monk doesn't get the top hp, doesn't get the top hp or necessarily ac. They do get a lot though, and should not be made unbalanced.
Mmm, the ideas of movies do come into it though. Martial artists are glorified as nigh unstoppable juggernauts (ong bac, kick boxing films, Jet Li) or cannot be hit, always roll out of the way canny and quick types (jackie chan, some of the old hong kong action films). Problem is, dnd isn't the movies.
I have had to explain this to a player wanting more from the monk--that you cannot have it all, you must choose something that you want to do. Or to put it in a pop culture vein, you want Jackie Chan, but in a world with Jackie Chan there is also Conan the barbarian, Subotai, Eddard Stark, Jaime Lannister, Robin Hood, Yagyu swordsman and wild vaguely Norse-derived vikings.
Now Jackie Chan always was fun to watch, but he never went against a knight in plate. There should be balance, the eastern-based classes should not be superior to other types of combat classes.
For monk bab, it always made sense to me in this way. Turning the unarmed into a really effective weapon, say to do d8 or 2d6 is somewhat difficult, even with training. Got to get the right spot, got to use the amount of force etc etc, often punch through armour or thick hide, then the damage comes, but the bab is lower. What they are doing is harder and also ties to a monastic and philosophical tradition, they are not pure melee, but also contemplatives.
Those relying on weapons swing their forged and sharp steel, which works with their weapon focused training to carve people up, or smash them down. The layers of steel/plates/bands/leather protect them, but they are reliant on these tools, or feats with a touch of dex to keep them alive. The monk is autonomous, and doesn't need armour or weapons, he is singular, an individual, a fighter that uses ki, but cannot rely on luck and a steel helm to save his head. In a sense the other classes are quite crude and reliant on those tools. A monk can use some weapons, more if they burn feats, but then forgo them and go unarmed flurry when they wish or if the weapons are damaged/lost.
The monk doesn't...
So, because the monk has trained more extensively in using his weapons of choice, and knows by heart all the best places to strike, he is less skilled at connecting with a punch then a Fighter or Barbarian?
The thematics just don’t work there. And if a monk can get a full BAB when he flurries, then the balance argument just doesn't hold up for me.
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So, I can make any character and claim natural aptitude. Where did your wizard learn spells? He made them up. When did the paladin get so good at fighting? Born lucky, god made him that way. When did your monk become a monk? He's not really a monk. He's just naturally talented.
Yes. My first character was a street urchin that became a circus acrobat then developed his own martial art style from his circus routine. Obviously, I used the monk class.
I would have no problem with a wizard who got his spells from copying down mystical inspirations as they hit him, and had never gone to 'wizarding school' or anything like that.
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2) HIGH AC. SERIOUSLY High AC. WITHOUT gear. Monks do not USE armor, because they duck and weave and spin and dodge and simply do NOT get hit. Adding TWO stats to the AC seems to help... (naturally adding bonuses TO those stats, but I HATE when characters NEED gear to compete.
Seriously ?
Did you even read about my 8 Dex monk with 30 AC when using barkskin from qinggong spell-like ability ?I get 10 + 5 from Wisdom, +4 from monk levels, + 1 natural from sacred mountain, -1 from Dexterity, + 4 from Bracers of armor, and + 2 from ring of protection.
30 AC for an unarmored character is more than the ranger's archer AC when using a nice light armor. And with one ki point, which I almost never run off during the day since I have 11 points and maximum 5 drunken ki points which I can recover two at a time as a swift action, I get to 34 before even using total defense or fighting defensively.
AC is THE big thing of monks.
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I would raid them, steal their grain, and drink their wine and beer. Than when all was done, I would impale them all on spears and bask in the glow of their burning abbey on my Drakkar's sail as I head for home.
Yes. My first character was a street urchin that became a circus acrobat then developed his own martial art style from his circus routine.
And a fun character he was!
Seriously ?
Did you even read about my 8 Dex monk with 30 AC when using barkskin from qinggong spell-like ability ?
I get 10 + 5 from Wisdom, +4 from monk levels, + 1 natural from sacred mountain, -1 from Dexterity, + 4 from Bracers of armor, and + 2 from ring of protection.
30 AC for an unarmored character is more than the ranger's archer AC when using a nice light armor. And with one ki point, which I almost never run off during the day since I have 11 points and maximum 5 drunken ki points which I can recover two at a time as a swift action, I get to 34 before even using total defense or fighting defensively.AC is THE big thing of monks.
Cool!
I saw a base 25 AC mentioned above, which is ABOUT on par with our other characters in a 12th level game. Our ranger has about 28 or so with her shield and armor... my rogue has a 22. Barkskin and bracers don't REALLY count, if A) you don't have access to them, and B) Everyone else gets to use that stuff too...
So the question was 'what do I consider the MAIN things monk's need...' And the answer is unarmed damage, and awesome AC.
I just made up a Master of many styles 7th level... and I WISH I had him right here... but with Crane and Turtle styles, I think I've got him up to 17 or 18 right now with no gear... He's still a work in progress.
UC MAY have fixed the AC issue, but really that's what I want out of monk.
Yes. My first character was a street urchin that became a circus acrobat then developed his own martial art style from his circus routine.And a fun character he was!
'Was'? Did I get killed offscreen? That always happens to the good characters between seasons...
'Was'? Did I get killed offscreen? That always happens to the good characters between seasons...
No; you're still alive to the best of my knowledge, unless TOZ killed you off in a bout of schizophrenia. Assuming not, we're hoping to see more of your exploits when circumstances allow it.
I kill off a lot of PCs, but I'm not George R.R. Martin...
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Cool!
I saw a base 25 AC mentioned above, which is ABOUT on par with our other characters in a 12th level game. Our ranger has about 28 or so with her shield and armor... my rogue has a 22. Barkskin and bracers don't REALLY count, if A) you don't have access to them, and B) Everyone else gets to use that stuff too...
So the question was 'what do I consider the MAIN things monk's need...' And the answer is unarmed damage, and awesome AC.
I just made up a Master of many styles 7th level... and I WISH I had him right here... but with Crane and Turtle styles, I think I've got him up to 17 or 18 right now with no gear... He's still a work in progress.
UC MAY have fixed the AC issue, but really that's what I want out of monk.
Because everything in your group can have access whenever they want to CL 12 Barkskin ? Everyone is wearing bracers of armor that somehow work with their armors ?
Ok, let's switch my monk's 22 Strength (a guy with middle age penalties to physical attributes/bonuses to mental attributes) to Dexterity. Remove Improved Grapple, Deflect arrows and some other feats, get the Crane style feats and regular gear from legal WBL for level 12.Level 12 Stats :
8
22
18
8
20
12
It's 32 AC, 27 touch AC.
Barskin (qinggong spell-like ability, is your DM a jerk big enough to not allow it ?) => 37 AC.
One ki point in top of it ? => 41 AC, 31 touch AC.
Fighting defensively with 3 ranks in Acrobatics and Crane Style + Crane Riposte active ? => -1 to attack, 45 AC, 35 Touch AC.
Remove Bracers of armor, ring of protection and sacred moutain archetype because the DM wants you to die with a level 1 wealth and no magic items. => 38 AC, 33 touch AC.
But well, I guess 45 AC (or 38, because you just love VoP) is still not good enough ? After all, it's only 1 more AC point that a CR 23 Solar.