As I pointed out to Cartigan earlier, so too shall I point out to you. A wizard may simply learn secret page and write multiple spells overtop one another. Each time you use the spell you can create a new page worth of text, and it specifically notes that you can put spells upon spells in the spell description. In short, a wizard can happily fit his entire repertoire in a single standard nonmagical spellbook, hiding his good spells behind his cantrips if he desires, and using magic aura to disguise the existence of the magic. In many cases, this can actually lead to a wizard who has a spellbook worth many times what it appears to be worth at first glance.
"Ahh, damnit, it's just a basic spellbook full of cantrips and a handful of first level spells.", while in reality it is actually filled to the proverbial brim with countless spells that the wizard has transcribed within, and is also a blessed book, 'cause magic aura is cool like that.
Likewise, keeping it in a box, bag, coat, or merely locking the cover closed, ensures that there is no LoS/LoE to the pages vs dispel magic or similarly naughty tricks. Of course, I prefer to keep my main spellbook somewhere nice and safe at higher levels, while using traveling spellbooks elsewhere. Sometimes keeping a couple of spellbooks around is a good option, especially since there are now boons you can get from spellbooks; making them worth carrying (the book of harms is absolutely nasty, as a 9th level wizard can pop a 25 damage magic missile using a 1st level slot 1/day if he willingly takes an average of 2.5 damage).
Not to derail the thread, but since you seem to be very well versed in this (and I almost never play prepared casters) I'm curious...if you use secret page to do that, is it effectively free scribing?
Also, you'd have to have at least one spell of each level you can cast (secret page says "The text of a spell can be changed to show another spell of equal or lower level known by the caster." anyway, so unless there's a way around that...)
Not to derail the thread, but since you seem to be very well versed in this (and I almost never play prepared casters) I'm curious...if you use secret page to do that, is it effectively free scribing?
Not unless you're scribing in a blessed book. There's nothing that allows secret page (to my knowledge) to allow you to scribe on the secret page for free. It merely allows you to stuff a single book with a metric-ton (proverbially of course) of spells. However, combined with a blessed book, it is the wizard's best friend, as they can happily scribe tons and tons and tons of spells into their book with no scribing cost.
Also it's worth noting that if you are in an antimagic field the magic is not dispelled, merely suppressed. Thus if you walk into an antimagic field you don't have to worry about all your secret pages suddenly vanishing and losing all your spells. They just become unavailable until you leave the antimagic field. I'm not sure why you'd be preparing spells in an antimagic field exactly; but it's worth noting that your book won't suddenly implode 'cause you walked into an AMF.
Also, you'd have to have at least one spell of each level you can cast (secret page says "The text of a spell can be changed to show another spell of equal or lower level known by the caster." anyway, so unless there's a way around that...)
The original secret page spell in 3.x didn't mention anything about a spell level, so I may be mistaken. However, changing the contents to a blank page and then scribing it manually is possible as-is, so you can take that for what it's worth.
EDIT: Please remember, of course, that there is a downside to trying to fit all your spells in a single spellbook. It can be convenient, especially if you're trying to stretch a blessed book, or pack fewer traveling spellbooks; but it also means you have all your eggs in one basket; so losing that book can be a very sad day indeed. :(
It's odd, it seems that a number of people appear to be arguing that since a wizard might take precautions to protect their spellbook from a whole range of bad things that could befall it, they do not need to take any precautions since they could take precautions. Wasn't the entire argument in the OP that GMs should occasionally have things happen that make the wizards/players who take the precautions to protect their spellbooks/<insert item here> feel justified in having done so? Or are we dealing with Schroedinger's spellbook here, a not-so-distant cousin to the Schroedinger's Wizard who always has the appropriate spell memorized exactly enough times?
Look at it this way.
You are a rogue. You want to steal something. You know spell books are valuable. You want to steal one.
What is the benefit: A fair bit of moola.
What is the risk: You need to have some way of knowing how powerful the wizard is. You do not try to snag Elminsters Spellbook no matter how much they're paying you, you'll never live to collect.
You need to know or find out what kind of protection the wizards and/or their spellbooks have. This is VERY problematic because PC's hang out with a cadre of people with diverse skills, including a cleric who has an uncanny sense for telling you're up to no good if you try to join the group for a meal.
The wizard also tends to spend a fair amount of time galavanting around the countryside, and it seems ever 4 days or so the wizard is subject to bandit attacks, wandering monsters, ambushing monsters, and wandering ambushing monster bandits.
In other words, they're downright twitchy about anything rustling around in the bushes where they can't see it. Step on a twig and the result is as likely to be a lightning bolt as a "hey who's there?"
Now, since you don't know where the spellbook is how do you get it? Its PROBABLY in the wizards backpack, but you don't know what else is in there, good luck. Most backpackers put things they're going to need during the day (ie, waterbottles and lunch) further up than something they're only going to need at the end of the day.
How do you tell the difference between a spellbook and whatever other book they've got in there? It would really bite to go through all this trouble only to have your fence point out that you've just stolen what is apparently a draconic romance novel "The horizontal dance of dragons" (banned in 5 countries and of course the steaming sea)
You also have to consider that the rogue doesn't know what the wizard could do: most don't have spellcraft. The book could be in an extra dimensional space, or could have a tiny little demon doing nothing all day but watching it. (or the wizard's familiar "bitey" could be sleeping on it) The book could explode on him. The book could pull a "monster book of monsters" bit and BITE anyone but the wizard who touches it.
Can a wizard find their spellbook? Some of them CAN. Is the wizard you want to steal from one of those? Will you have a fence reliable enough to sell the book to that WON"T turn on you when the wizard's barbarian friend turns him upside down?
Wizards and magic are something somewhat outside of most rogues area's of expertise Its unfamiliar and unknown.. and thats BAD in the thievery line of work. You want something known and familiar to deal with, like guards with scheduled shift changes and buzz saw blade death traps.
I removed a post. Do not use that word that way.
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The base price of a blessed book is 12,500.
A normal spellbook has 100 pages. Spells take a page per level. So if you are above 7th level or so you need a blessed book just to hold all the spells you know.
As I pointed out to Cartigan earlier, so too shall I point out to you. A wizard may simply learn secret page and write multiple spells overtop one another. Each time you use the spell you can create a new page worth of text, and it specifically notes that you can put spells upon spells in the spell description. In short, a wizard can happily fit his entire repertoire in a single standard nonmagical spellbook, hiding his good spells behind his cantrips if he desires, and using magic aura to disguise the existence of the magic. In many cases, this can actually lead to a wizard who has a spellbook worth many times what it appears to be worth at first glance.
"Ahh, damnit, it's just a basic spellbook full of cantrips and a handful of first level spells.", while in reality it is actually filled to the proverbial brim with countless spells that the wizard has transcribed within, and is also a blessed book, 'cause magic aura is cool like that.
Likewise, keeping it in a box, bag, coat, or merely locking the cover closed, ensures that there is no LoS/LoE to the pages vs dispel magic or similarly naughty tricks. Of course, I prefer to keep my main spellbook somewhere nice and safe at higher levels, while using traveling spellbooks elsewhere. Sometimes keeping a couple of spellbooks around is a good option, especially since there are now boons you can get from spellbooks; making them worth carrying (the book of harms is absolutely nasty, as a 9th level wizard can pop a 25 damage magic missile using a 1st level slot 1/day if he willingly takes an average of 2.5 damage).
Sometimes I find that if you actually read the spell, things become more clear.
"Secret page alters the contents of a page so that it appears to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show another spell of equal or lower level known by the caster. This spell cannot be used to change a spell contained on a scroll, but it can be used to hide a scroll. Explosive runes or sepia snake sigil can be cast upon the secret page."
Aside from the 10 minute casting time, it is a 3rd level spell you will have to memorize over and over again in order
How long with that take? I would guess significantly longer than scribing, not to mention the fact you have functionally wasted a 3rd level spell slot every day you are doing this...
Then of course, it doesn't change the fact that a spell still takes up a page per level of the spell and a spellbook is 100 pages. So it will take a minimum of three castings of Secret Page just to write the spell secret page in a spellbook "hidden" in another spell.
Then my favorite part.
"A secret page spell can be dispelled, and the hidden writings can be destroyed by means of an erase spell."
Which is going to be awesome fun when you high level wizard runs into a Mage Disjunction spell.
But yes, if you don't actually read the spell, the plan you described works great.
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If you know a spell another wizard wants to know...well your spellbook value goes up to whatever that wizard is willing to pay.Moving goalpost, again? The argument that the value of a spellbook is always the value indicated in the rules was your argument, not mine.
The whole argument is if Spellbooks have enough value someone would want to steal or destroy them.
I feel really comfortable on my side of the argument, how you doing over there?
Who has actually had their character's spellbook stolen/sundered/otherwise destroyed in a game of Pathfinder or any edition of D&D?Hey there, DQ.
Over the decades, my PCs have had three spellbooks destroyed: two when they failed their fireball saving throws, and one when the my archivist went through an anti-magic field and her Heward's handy haversack's dwoemer was destroyed, casting everything therein into the cracks between the planes. Happily, in two of those cases, I had easy-to-recover copies of most of the contents.
I also have had a Pathfinder witch lose his familiar, along with almost all his gold.
Thanks, Chris. Unpleasant circumstances, but I can see how they'd happen. (I think folks are more gentle about what happens with AMFs and magic containers these days--we tend to treat it as--your stuff is stuck in the dimension the container stores it in, you just can't access that dimension right now--but I do remember when "your bag asplode" was the result of various things like that.)
Wizard meets engulfing ooze that dissolves equipment. Wizard might survive while the gear does not.Wizard submerged in water without a waterproofed spell book for more than a round or two is self-explanatory.
Wizard dies by incineration / acid bath / what have you generally does his gear in too. Such as by green slime immersion (Age of Worms as a prime example, others pre-3e).
Turin, your wording ("might survive" and "such as") suggests you have not seen these things happen, just what is possible. Am I misunderstanding?
That said, it's interesting the situations you are describing are not situations where the spellbook is specifically targeted. Same with Chris's experience.
All the above situations--failed fireball save, oozes, acid, water, antimagic field--are situations any character could find themselves in and would be equally in danger of losing their stuff. A cleric could lose her holy symbol to a fireball or an ooze, for example. While a wizard can be especially screwed without a spellbook if they are without one for a long period of time, such gear loss can be a huge one for any character--and yet at the same time, gear loss isn't necessarily the primary point of any of these forms of attacks or environmental hazards.
Once the wizard was studying his book during what was supposed to be his watch. This was specifically described by him as what the character was doing for an hour of his 4 hour watch (he got 8 hours of rest then had 4 hours in the morning, the rest of us took 4 hour shifts on either end.The rest of us shook our heads, but you don't tell people how to play their characters and the rest of us were asleep during his watch so we wouldn't know what he was doing in game.
And so he so didn't notice the ambush coming, and that ambush included fire attacks on him while reading his open, unprotected spellbook. It was his "travel" spell book, and he always had a "main" book at home, so it was no biggie. And as he admitted it was his own fault, he was just taking his chances since he knew the GM was rolling randomly what shift enemies would attack and thought the Alarm spell would be enough.
Once the party had the group bag of holding stolen (I don't remember the circumstances, but we were careless, it wasn't just GM fiat), and the wizard had decided that was where he was keeping his book while we were moving around because it was heavy.
A couple of times we were told to give up our items before entering a place, or they were taken when we were forced to surrender after getting pwnd, and among the items taken included the wizards spellbook.
As a party we always take a captured Wizard's spellbook when we take the wizard prisoner.
And ciretose's anecdotes show situations where the players agreed with the GM that the loss of spellbook was a reasonable consequences based on the circumstances (and in many cases, other party members also lost gear).
What I'm getting at so far is I haven't yet seen situations where a GM specifically targeted a spellbook just "to be a dick." I'd like to see more examples. Obviously this is not a scientific poll--but I'm trying to get a better sense of where this fear of "dick GM moves" comes from.
It's odd, it seems that a number of people appear to be arguing that since a wizard might take precautions to protect their spellbook from a whole range of bad things that could befall it, they do not need to take any precautions since they could take precautions. Wasn't the entire argument in the OP that GMs should occasionally have things happen that make the wizards/players who take the precautions to protect their spellbooks/<insert item here> feel justified in having done so? Or are we dealing with Schroedinger's spellbook here, a not-so-distant cousin to the Schroedinger's Wizard who always has the appropriate spell memorized exactly enough times?Look at it this way.
You are a rogue. You want to steal something. You know spell books are valuable. You want to steal one.
What is the benefit: A fair bit of moola.
Except they apparently aren't.
The most expensive spellbook possible is ~4000 gold. That's a book full of level 9 spells. A 4000 gold spellbook at like what, level 18? Congratulations, you have stolen something extremely important to an 18th+ level Wizard for the return you could get on stealing a Wand of Magic Missile. So unless we are valuing it subjectively rather than by how much it is worth, they aren't worth squat.
Then my favorite part.
"A secret page spell can be dispelled, and the hidden writings can be destroyed by means of an erase spell."
Which is going to be awesome fun when you high level wizard runs into a Mage Disjunction spell.
But yes, if you don't actually read the spell, the plan you described works great.
Disjunction doesn't work like that any more. Basically you managed to suppress the Secret Page for 10 minutes (as it is permanent), at which point you would have to lunge for the spellbook and cast erase over and over.
Very odd tactic, that.
The most expensive spellbook possible is ~4000 gold. That's a book full of level 9 spells.I find ~14 000 gp.
The base price is (cost of purchasing the spells within + cost of writing the spells within)
cost of writing a 9-th level spell = 810 gp
cost of purchasing a 9-th level spell = half the cost of writing the spell = 405 gp
Total cost per level 9 spells: 1 215 gp
100 pages = 11 level 9 spells (and 1 level 1 spell)That's still not much at level 18, but hey, as Ciretose explains, "if spellbooks are valuable, then they worth more money".
How do you define the cost of purchase? If it is what you said, then the rules are pointlessly verbose and confusing. They could just say the cost of purchasing a spellbook is equal to one and a half times the cost of inscribing the spell.
Also, that is a weird interpretation of the conjunction "and." It should extend the "half" to the phrase "purchasing and inscribing the spells within," not just the first half of that phrase. I mean, if you researched every level 9 spell, the cost of the spellbook is going to be rather notable, more in the range of 50k - iff* purchase means "the cost of obtaining the spell," which will be variable. But 18th level wizard and you could still steal a Wand of Black Tentacles worth like 15k...
Yes, that is "iff" not "if."
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I use this part of the rules to define the cost of purchase (in the same section):
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until he gains another rank in Spellcraft. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
It's hidden in the text, and I'll give you the rules are pointlessly verbose and confusing. But...
...Sometime, I don't try to understand why rules are confusing, i just do what they say (or what I think they say).
If you are a Wizard, spells are very valuable to you. And so spell books are very valuable.
I’ve played entire quests surrounding a PC wizard seeking a certain spell from a certain powerful wizard.
You can try and kill that Wizard, or you can try to steal one of the Wizard’s spellbooks.
Note the plural.
In the case of that quest, we broke into the Wizards tower, fought past his defenses, found one of his spellbooks that had the spell we needed to learn, stole it, learned the spell, and fixed the “MacGuffin”.
And other Wizards would do the same for spells from PCs.
As I said before, in one AP a unique spell is available for PCs to get it to quote
In “Sin of the Savior A wizard named Vraxeris’s created a version of improved clone, which was basically a 9th level version of clone that worked better.”
The description of the journal regarding a journal that contained information on the spell:
That is 15,000 gp for information on a single spell.
in describing the journal, this is in the preceding sentence “…but the research for creating this powerful 9th-level spell is particularly onerous and would itself consume most of a lifetime. Nevertheless, the journal is worth 15,000 gp for this information alone, and if word of its contents were to spread, all manner of unscrupulous wizards would doubtless do much to claim it by more violent means.”
At lower levels, maybe the it’s easier to get a spellbook full of spells to learn and steal than to have to find and purchase the scrolls. Particularly if you aren’t playing in a Magic Mart heavy game.
In some games, the only real way to get new spells is from other wizards. And not all wizards want to share power with PCs, for any number of reasons.
In all games, spells are valuable things.
Yes, a spellbook full of uniquely researched high level spells is worth money. As I already pointed out.
Spellbooks worth non-unique spells are worth middling nothing.
In all games, spells are valuable things.
Maybe. But only to Wizards looking for specific spells. What is generic thief A going to do with a book if he finds it? How does he know it is a spellbook? How does he know it is valuable? I doubt he is going to pull off the spellcraft check to decipher the writing. Is he going to risk the ire of a Wizard to try and a acquire a single object worth probably less than just grabbing a handful of wands or a glowing weapon?
You have to make a point of an NPC Wizard specifically wanting the PC's spellbook and then specifically hiring someone to steal it or kill them for it. Presumably this is because the Wizard is Chaotic Stupid and at least won't simply try to bargain with the PCs for the chance to copy spells from it in the first place.
Your spellbooks are valuable things - only subjectively, and only to Wizards, not to wandering thieves, and only if the GM creates a specific interest in that specific spellbook for reason of creating a quest line.
No, it is reductio ad absurdum. Which in this case is not a logical fallacy. You made the statement that a caster cannot cast if the spell component pouch in sundered. The only way that could be true is if the contents of the pouch were also destroyed, as no spell I know of needs a "spell component pouch," which therefore makes your argument destroying the container destroys the contents (reductio ad absurdum).At the very least though, the components have been spilled to the floor, which means that the caster in question is going to be taking AOOs and extra actions to pick up the components he needs to cast.
Which he would take from casting in melee anyway for the most part.
And that is still irrelevant to the original argument no matter how many times anyone repeats it.
These sorts of things create a general reputation. Bad things happen to people who rob wizards and clerics. Maybe not all the time, but frequently enough. Robbing a wizard that hangs out with 2-3 other PC classed people with elite array or better is Darwin award material.So your argument is that your wizard doesn't need to take precautions because other wizards take precautions and so people would be afraid to rob you.
Just like there is no crime in Texas, because some people may be carrying guns.
Yeah...
That is not how I read it. I read it as the wizard has a bazooka, and his buddies at least have automatic rifles and are good at hunting people down so it is not a good idea to mess with them.
I played under a GM that used all those tricks. It causes a fair amount of paranoia when you KNOW the GM will target you when you are weak and hit your stuff when it is vulnerable. But on the other side of the coin the GM was fairly free with treasure and didn't unfairly single any one person out. It kept us on our toes and forced my wizard to keep a spare set of spellbooks back at base just in case we were captured and our gear was confiscated. I never had anyone target my books for sunder... because I never had them out during combat.
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The description of the journal regarding a journal that contained information on the spell:
That is 15,000 gp for information on a single spell.Wow, 15,000 gp for information about a unique level 9 spell, I'm really impressed! Spells are very valuable...
...Oh wait, I just remember the price of a weapon. Nevermind.
Yes, 15,000 gold for a single spell.
But you go ahead with your argument that a book of spells isn't worth stealing.
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I played under a GM that used all those tricks. It causes a fair amount of paranoia when you KNOW the GM will target you when you are weak and hit your stuff when it is vulnerable. But on the other side of the coin the GM was fairly free with treasure and didn't unfairly single any one person out. It kept us on our toes and forced my wizard to keep a spare set of spellbooks back at base just in case we were captured and our gear was confiscated. I never had anyone target my books for sunder... because I never had them out during combat.
And this is the point.
The GM shouldn't do it randomly, but the players should use some basic common sense and precautions.
If they don't...well stuff happens.
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The description of the journal regarding a journal that contained information on the spell:
That is 15,000 gp for information on a single spell.Wow, 15,000 gp for information about a unique level 9 spell, I'm really impressed! Spells are very valuable...
...Oh wait, I just remember the price of a weapon. Nevermind.
Yes, 15,000 gold for a single spell.
But you go ahead with your argument that a book of spells isn't worth stealing.
Ciretose,
This spell is basically a plot device spell. Most GMs wouldn't approve it as a researchable spell if a player wizard were to propose it. So it's hardly representative.Spellbooks have a really bad risk-reward ratio for a thief. In general, attempting to steal from adventuring parties is a really dim idea. As a GM thieves will rarely come specifically after you as an adventurer if you do basic due dilligence as long as you're at or below your wealth by level guideline. If you're substantially above it---well, you start getting viewed kind of the way a commoner who inherited a magical sword from their high level adventurer uncle who just passed away would.
Attempting to steal from adventuring parties that take reasonable precautions is a bad idea.
Attempting to steal from an adventuring party that doesn't, isn't.
Which is the entire point.
Of course, the culture of each game world will vary, making it impossible to solidly define the risk/profit ratio associated with spellbook theft.
In most worlds where powerful magical lore is valued, such information is not widely known. Thieves can't tell whether the terrifying tales of vengeful wizards are true. They can't be sure that the wizard won't transform them into slugs or befuddle their minds to make them attack their guildmaster. They have no conception of the subtle cruelties a wizard can inflict upon them. Be wary of angering a wizard...
Furthermore, the value of a spellbook is contingent upon finding a buyer willing to purchase it. When the thief drags in a battered volume, its every page covered with unique drawings and strange scripts, his fence knows that such an item is easily identified and likely won't touch the thing.
I also play with "Routine maintenance" for equipment...you've got to spend 2% to 3% of the book value of your equipment to keep it in tip top shape. Don't and your equipment becomes permanently worn, Continue and it becomes completely worthless. I don't do this to punish the players, more to show that your equipment requires some upkeep. Think Han Solo and the Millenium Falcon. The guy was one of the best Smugglers in the galaxy. Where'd his money go? That damned ship, that's where.
No way! He must have spent way more than that on his ship, if my 1970 VW is anything to go by.
Great idea, by the way. I think I will implement this in the near future.
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Why would anyone bother about stealing a spellbook?AM SIMPLE. SPELLBOOKS AM MOST PROTECTED THING ON PLANET. SQUISHY CASTYS MAKE IMMUNE TO FIRE, IMMUNE TO WATER, IMMUNE TO DAMAGE, GIVE SEVERAL LAYERS OF SUPER PROTECTION BESIDES, AND THEY AM PLENTIIFUL.
CLEARLY, SOLUTION AM TO MAKE ARMOR OUT OF SPELLBOOKS. GRAB ENOUGH, TAKE TO LOCAL ARMOR-MAKER AND HAVE THEM SEW ALL TOGETHER, NOW MAGICAL PROTECTION AM ON CLOAK! OR SHIELD! OR EVEN ARMOR!
AM LIKE DRAGONHIDE, ONLY INSTEAD OF SLAUGHTERING COUNTLESS DRAGONS AM SLAUGHTERING COUNTLESS SQUISHY CASTYS. SPELLBOOK AM LIKE WIZARD SKIN, RIGHT?
I like this. Since spellbooks themselves have DR 90000000000/- and the special property metagaming plot immunity, it stands to reason that armor made of spellbooks would grant it's wearer the same protection.
Make Whole restores a sundered item with its magical powers intact.
Assuming the caster has a caster level twice the one of the item. Which for powerful items may be very difficult to achieve.
It also doesn't work on charged items.|
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The description of the journal regarding a journal that contained information on the spell:
That is 15,000 gp for information on a single spell.Wow, 15,000 gp for information about a unique level 9 spell, I'm really impressed! Spells are very valuable...
...Oh wait, I just remember the price of a weapon. Nevermind.
Yes, 15,000 gold for a single spell.
But you go ahead with your argument that a book of spells isn't worth stealing.
Heck, it wasn't even 15K gold for a single spell.
It was 15K gold for INFORMATION about a single spell.
Though that does give me an idea - epic dick move: Lava.
A simple energy resist fire allows you to move freely in lava, but does resist energy extend to all your stuff? You enter fully armed, armored, and packed and come out naked but otherwise unharmed.
Actually it does.
This abjuration grants a creature limited protection from damage of whichever one of five energy types you select: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. The subject gains resist energy 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature's hit points. The value of the energy resistance granted increases to 20 points at 7th level and to a maximum of 30 points at 11th level. The spell protects the recipient's equipment as well.
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So an extra 4 spellbooks at 5th level is what? 2-3k gold? That's 20-30% of your wealth by level. And what risk mitigations are you going to have in case the spellbook is stolen? If it is stolen, your risk mitigation against getting it stolen has failed and you have to fall back on duplicate books - if you had time to make any. And what if it is destroyed? You anti-theft protections are useless then.
one of the most clever wizards i ever played with purchased 4 empty spell books and cast explosive rune on each page. then he has his real spell book in a special place that had magical defenses on his person. if a theif stole one of his fake books he had on his person in plane view it cooked them when they opened it lol. man that rogue got the suprise of a life time.
i think this is what he means by defense of a spell book. not just having a back up with real spells.
Spellbooks aren't something you steal at random, it's probably something you do more like commission work. Wizard X wants to access Wizard Y's spellbook, but they're enemies so Wizard Y doesn't want to lend his book. Wizard X hires the rogue and promises 30k for stealing the book, even though the book wouldn't sell for that much on the open market.
B 1 Opener Final 2 avatar
I run games where sundering can and does occur, particularly when the foe wields a hammer of some sort - particularly a maul. I also play with "Routine maintenance" for equipment...you've got to spend 2% to 3% of the book value of your equipment to keep it in tip top shape.
Meh. This sounds like annoying accounting, and would throw off the treasure and wealth by level guidelines
Also exactly what kind of oil do you sharpen a +5 shocking flaming sword with that it costs more than a small village?
My campaigns are very gritty, low magic campaigns. Magic is a wondrous and fearsome thing. Magic weapons aren't magic so much as extraordinary materials such as mithril, adamantine, godstone (meteor metal). As a GM I don't subscribe to the 'treasure and wealth by level' guideline mentality. The Permanency spel does not exist, as are any spell that is designed to ENCHANT a weapon, barred completely from campaigns that I run. When player's wish to craft a magic item, I still run things by 2E rules - odd and strange items gathered together and blended in a unique ritual and crafting experience without requiring the expenditure of XP. I've found this works nicely to kill 'magic item economy'. It's not a campaign style of play that suits many people. It does however work for the groups for which I have GMed.
There should be a variant of Godwin's Law that deals with using Latin phrases to appear to be smarter than one really is.No, it is reductio ad absurdum. Which in this case is not a logical fallacy. You made the statement that a caster cannot cast if the spell component pouch in sundered. The only way that could be true is if the contents of the pouch were also destroyed, as no spell I know of needs a "spell component pouch," which therefore makes your argument destroying the container destroys the contents (reductio ad absurdum).
I never argued that everything in a container that is destroyed is also destroyed. Those are your words and your strawman, not mine.Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur - Anything said in Latin sounds profound.
Just here for the cookies...
Perhaps I should start dissecting everyone's posts for words derived from latin. Ooh, ooh, or call "Strawman's Law" - All arguments will eventually involve an incorrect accusation of "strawman" against any argument disagreed with by the accuser.
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I run games where sundering can and does occur, particularly when the foe wields a hammer of some sort - particularly a maul. I also play with "Routine maintenance" for equipment...you've got to spend 2% to 3% of the book value of your equipment to keep it in tip top shape.
Meh. This sounds like annoying accounting, and would throw off the treasure and wealth by level guidelines
Also exactly what kind of oil do you sharpen a +5 shocking flaming sword with that it costs more than a small village?
My campaigns are very gritty, low magic campaigns. Magic is a wondrous and fearsome thing. Magic weapons aren't magic so much as extraordinary materials such as mithril, adamantine, godstone (meteor metal). As a GM I don't subscribe to the 'treasure and wealth by level' guideline mentality. The Permanency spel does not exist, as are any spell that is designed to ENCHANT a weapon, barred completely from campaigns that I run. When player's wish to craft a magic item, I still run things by 2E rules - odd and strange items gathered together and blended in a unique ritual and crafting experience without requiring the expenditure of XP. I've found this works nicely to kill 'magic item economy'. It's not a campaign style of play that suits many people. It does however work for the groups for which I have GMed.
That isn't really Pathfinder and I'm not sure how it relates to anything.
For those arguing that the value of a spellbook is low, wouldn't that mean it's fairly trivial for a wizard of mid-to-high level to have multiple backups cansidering WBL? Stealing the spellbook is now merely an inconvenience rather than a crippling hindrance.
Resale value is what we are talking about here. Once you start multipling up on spellbooks, they start taking a not insignificant chunk out of your wealth.
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For those arguing that the value of a spellbook is low, wouldn't that mean it's fairly trivial for a wizard of mid-to-high level to have multiple backups cansidering WBL? Stealing the spellbook is now merely an inconvenience rather than a crippling hindrance.Resale value is what we are talking about here. Once you start multipling up on spellbooks, they start taking a not insignificant chunk out of your wealth.
No value is what we are talking about here.
Although you can be equally wrong about the re-sale value being low as you can about the value being low.
In order for your side to be correct, there would need to be no reason for an NPC to take or destroy a spell book. Because if there is a reason, it is reasonable for a DM to sometimes do it.
So again, I feel pretty good about the position I took in this debate.
For those arguing that the value of a spellbook is low, wouldn't that mean it's fairly trivial for a wizard of mid-to-high level to have multiple backups cansidering WBL? Stealing the spellbook is now merely an inconvenience rather than a crippling hindrance.
Another issue is the amount of time required to copy multiple books. There is also the cost of doing it multiple times. One copy of something being cheap does not mean several copies are cheap.
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For those arguing that the value of a spellbook is low, wouldn't that mean it's fairly trivial for a wizard of mid-to-high level to have multiple backups cansidering WBL? Stealing the spellbook is now merely an inconvenience rather than a crippling hindrance.Another issue is the amount of time required to copy multiple books. There is also the cost of doing it multiple times. One copy of something being cheap does not mean several copies are cheap.
Not speaking of you Wraithstrike specifically, but many of the people making the argument that the time requirement is unfair are the same people arguing for crafted items included in WBL (something I agree with by the way)
It is completely reasonable to expect to have a back up spell book in the same way it is completely reasonable for someone to back up a hard drive.
And they aren't even going out adventuring...
It is one of the balancing weaknesses of the Wizard class, like eidelons going away when you sleep, Druids not wearing metal, etc...
For those arguing that the value of a spellbook is low, wouldn't that mean it's fairly trivial for a wizard of mid-to-high level to have multiple backups cansidering WBL? Stealing the spellbook is now merely an inconvenience rather than a crippling hindrance.Resale value is what we are talking about here. Once you start multipling up on spellbooks, they start taking a not insignificant chunk out of your wealth.No value is what we are talking about here.
Although you can be equally wrong about the re-sale value being low as you can about the value being low.
In order for your side to be correct, there would need to be no reason for an NPC to take or destroy a spell book. Because if there is a reason, it is reasonable for a DM to sometimes do it.
So again, I feel pretty good about the position I took in this debate.
Except your position is what "There are absurd circumstances in which a spellbook could conceivable be worth ridiculously large amounts of money above normal so average thieves might randomly steal your spellbook or Barbarians attack your backpack?"
No, that doesn't make any sense. Why would an ordinary cut purse take any spellbook at all? Why would a NPC take a spellbook full of mundane spells? Why would anyone go through the effort of digging through a backpack to find one to destroy it - presumably in the middle of a fight because once you start grabbing people stuff trying to destroy it, they are going to try and kick your ass.
Moreover, once there is an arbitrary reason to take one spellbook, then there exists an arbitrary reason to take ALL the spellbooks so having a backup is irrelevant. The DM will just declare any and/or all of them objects of interest and every corner you turn will be full of paid thieves and spellbook assassins.
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Except your position is what "There are absurd circumstances in which a spellbook could conceivable be worth ridiculously large amounts of money above normal so average thieves might randomly steal your spellbook or Barbarians attack your backpack?"
Wow, it makes sense now why you have been so wildly wrong throughout this thread.
It was a simple misunderstanding!
If you think that is what I have been saying, you are wrong. And I can totally see why if you thought that was what I was saying, you would think I was wrong. I have no idea why you thought that was what I was saying, but hey...
What I am saying, and have been saying throughout, is that there are circumstances where a wizard could have a spellbook destroyed, lost, or damaged. And that spellbooks are critical to a Wizard being able to contribute effectively.
Therefore is is prudent every Wizard take reasonable precautions to protect their spellbooks, which include keeping a back up spell book.
Now that I've corrected your clear misunderstanding of my position, I'm certain your next response will be a polite apology with a notation of agreement.
Glad we could work it out!
Except your position is what "There are absurd circumstances in which a spellbook could conceivable be worth ridiculously large amounts of money above normal so average thieves might randomly steal your spellbook or Barbarians attack your backpack?"
Wow, it makes sense now why you have been so wildly wrong throughout this thread.
It was a simple misunderstanding!
If you think that is what I have been saying, you are wrong. And I can totally see why if you thought that was what I was saying, you would think I was wrong. I have no idea why you thought that was what I was saying, but hey...
What I am saying, and have been saying throughout, is that there are circumstances where a wizard could have a spellbook destroyed, lost, or damaged. And that spellbooks are critical to a Wizard being able to contribute effectively.
Therefore is is prudent every Wizard take reasonable precautions to protect their spellbooks, which include keeping a back up spell book.
Now that I've corrected your clear misunderstanding of my position, I'm certain your next response will be a polite apology with a notation of agreement.
Glad we could work it out!
Yes, you said that. Already got it. My counter argument was if the biggest threat to a Wizard's spellbook is arbitrary GM design, what good will a backup spellbook do? The GM can arbitrarily go after that as well. Backup spellbooks don't protect you from the GM. If you are presented with a scenario in which a spellbook could be lost regardless of GM action, then sure, keep a backup. Otherwise, why bother? If your GM is an arbitrary dick, just be a Sorcerer.
My counter argument was if the biggest threat to a Wizard's spellbook is arbitrary GM design, what good will a backup spellbook do?
That's like saying shields are useless because the biggest threat to a fighter is arbitrary GM design (putting monster X in the way of the fighter) and he can just send another one should the fighter succeed.
All threats in the game are based on arbitrary GM design. It's a non-argument.