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Can an alchemist with the tumor familiar discovery take the Improved Familiar feat and get a celestial/fiendish tumor, or even an outsider tumor? ^.^;
No due to the lack of caster level which improved familiar is tied too.
unless it is ruled that you have a caster level specifically for the purposes of improved familiar.
The issue is that improved familiar is not tied to class level but caster level.
Mr. Fishy named his tumor, Boy.
APG page 27: "The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level."
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I imagine that some outsiders would be less thrilled than others about having to manifest in such a gruesome way. :)
Quasit? Cythnigot? No problem. Lyrakien... ew, like gag me with a glaive-guisarme!
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I disagree, Tumor Familiar DOES specify 'caster level'.No due to the lack of caster level which improved familiar is tied too.
unless it is ruled that you have a caster level specifically for the purposes of improved familiar.
The issue is that improved familiar is not tied to class level but caster level.
Not quite:
Benefit: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body, usually on his back or stomach. As a standard action, the alchemist can have the tumor detach itself from his body as a separate creature vaguely resembling a kind of animal suitable for a familiar (bat, cat, and so on) and move about as if it were an independent creature. The tumor can reattach itself to the alchemist as a standard action. The tumor has all the abilities of the animal it resembles (for example, a batlike tumor can fly) and familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level (though some familiar abilities may be useless to an alchemist). The tumor acts as the alchemist’s familiar whether attached or separated (providing a skill bonus, the Alertness feat, and so on). When attached to the alchemist, the tumor has fast healing 5. An alchemist’s extracts and mutagens are considered spells for the purposes of familiar abilities like share spells and deliver touch spells. If a tumor familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized procedure that costs 200 gp per alchemist level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.
So it gains familiar abilities based on your alchemist caster level (technically something you don't actually have since alchemist don't have caster levels -- they are treated as having caster levels for the purposes of their extracts instead).
This feat allows you to acquire a powerful familiar, but only when you could normally acquire a new familiar.Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).
Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).
Improved Familiar's text specifically refers to the chart which specifics arcane spellcaster level. The alchemist isn't an arcane spell caster and doesn't have a 'virtual level' of such for the purposes of his familiar. Instead his familiar gains abilities based on his alchemist's caster level (again something he doesn't have technically).
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NOW would I allow an alchemist to take improved familiar in a game? Probably -- but doing so wouldn't be 'RAW'.
"The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level." :P
"The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level." :P
Question: What part of arcane is difficult for you?
Also great job for out of context quoting:
Although the alchemist doesn’t actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
Gee not the general statement you are trying to make it out to be huh?
But if you want to play, "grab sentences and run" we are done here -- after all I can't argue with someone that purposefully misuses quotes.
Unfortunately, in Pathfinder, there's little information that actually specifies what's arcane vs divine other than where the source of the power comes from. Alchemists have a caster level, and their magical effects aren't derived from divine means. They may not cast spells, but I'd argue that they are still arcane casters, since their magical power comes through science rather than divinity.
I FAQed this because it is a definite gray area as to whether or not Alchemists are arcane casters. Or non-casters, since they obviously aren't divine casters.
In order to be an arcane spell caster you must cast spells. The alchemist does not. Also all arcane spell casters have one of the following in their class abilities:
A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list.
A witch casts arcane spells drawn from the witch spell list.
A summoner casts arcane spells drawn from the summoner spell list.
A magus casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list.
The alchemist much like the ninja, a rogue with the minor arcana talent, or any other class with spell like or supernatural abilities is not a divine or arcane caster. Being arcane or divine is a direct function of casting spells -- if you do not cast spells you will never have to worry about the arcane or divine distinction as it doesn't apply to you at all.
Alchemist are not spell casters. They have abilities that have a caster level based upon the specific ability in question, but having a caster level doesn't make you a spell caster -- only having the 'spells' text in your class description makes you a spell caster, and without it you are not.
But when you're specifically talking about the tumor familiar discovery. It lists the alchemist as having a caster level. (Albiet, likely a caster level for determining the abilities of the familiar.)
First off no it does not.
It never states you have a caster level for the purposes of the familiar. It says the familiar gains abilities based on your alchemist caster level. That is not the same as the following line:
By forging strange bonds with unnameable beings, witches gain the service of a mystical adviser, a familiar to both serve her and reveal to her secrets unknown to most mortals. A familiar is an animal chosen by a witch to aid her in her spellcasting and grant her special powers. This uses the same rules as the wizard’s arcane bond class feature, except as noted below. A witch uses her level as her effective wizard level when determining the abilities of her familiar. A witch can choose any of the familiars available to a wizard in addition to the new familiars presented here.
To compare the relevant sentence:
The tumor can reattach itself to the alchemist as a standard action. The tumor has all the abilities of the animal it resembles (for example, a batlike tumor can fly) and familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level (though some familiar abilities may be useless to an alchemist).
The witch treats her witch levels as if they are wizard levels for the purposes of her familiar. The alchemist tumor familiar gains abilities based on the alchemist's caster level (which again we have established he doesn't actually have).
So the only problem is the one word in the chart under Improved Familiar. Which is 'arcane'.So the question is, for the purposes of determining the abilities of the familiar granted by the Tumor Familiar discovery, is the Alchemist considered an 'arcane' caster?
Well again he's not a caster, and he isn't an arcane caster and he doesn't have an effective level for his tumor familiar. So on all accounts he fails the test.
In order to be an arcane caster you must have text in your class abilities that states you are such.
I know that the alchemist doesn't have an ACTUAL caster level. But he has an effective caster level (treating his level as his caster level) for the purposes of determining the abilities that his familiar possesses.
Determining the abilities of a familiar requires a caster level, and while the alchemist doesn't have an ACTUAL caster level, it implys that you use his Alchemist level as his caster level for this purpose.
As such, would that process not then apply to determining if the familiar qualifies for the prerequisites of the feat Improved Familiar?
With, like I said, the only problem in this is the chart that says "Arcane Caster Level" in the Improved Familiar feat.
The way you're describing it, would mean that the Tumor Familiar has absolutely no familiar abilities at all.
And by absolute RAW he doesn't since they've left a technical mistake in there -- the easy solution is to reference the one thing that treats him has having a caster level which is the extracts (which is again a bit of stretch since the extracts instead work as potions with his alchemist level as their caster level). Taking a step beyond that however: going with what they've written though the tumor familiar gains abilities by the alchemist's level... but the alchemist doesn't have an effective wizard level because of the way they have worded the tumor familiar ability. Instead of going with the witch's option of effective levels they basically gave the alchemist a bypass instead.
Regardless he's still not an arcane caster which is a requirement in this case for improved familiar. It isn't based off of the class levels that grant him the familiar, its based off of his arcane caster level.
So someone playing an eldritch knight for example could take improved familiar at level 9 (assuming a wizard 5/fighter 1/eldritch knight 3 build) and get a psuedo dragon for example because he has an arcane caster level of 7, even though his wizard level is only 5 for what abilities said familiar has.
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But this is also something that needs to be clarified. When they wrote 'arcane caster level' in the PHB, I'm sure they didn't have the Alchemist Tumor Familiar in mind when they worded it.
If, like you said, the alchemist gets a pass as far as the caster level for determining familiar abilities go, would he not get the same pass for the Imp. Familiar feat?
I mean, having no caster level doesn't stop the alchemist's familiar from gaining standard abilities. Why would not having an arcane caster level stop the familiar from gaining the benefits of a feat that is basically an extention of the original familiar rules?
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that RAW is wrong, or at the very least, too unclear to make a sound judgement.
The alchemist's tumor familiar has specific text that gives it abilities. Remember they already knew about the standard rules when they wrote the tumor familiar discovery -- they specifically decided to word it like they did, it was three books into the game, and for example they specifically decided to not word it like the witch's ability.
IF they want the alchemist to have a pass on the need for an arcane caster level they would have specifically included wording for such in the discovery.
Actually it is because the feat itself specifically reference the chart. Otherwise you would never know what they mean by "sufficiently high level" since it's never actually stated what level, or how high is sufficiently high. The text secedes authority to the chart in this case by specifically referencing it without giving any other clarification.
Which, is likely an oversight that needs to be addressed. I highly doubt that the feat was intended for arcane spellcaster specifically, since there are no divine casters (to my knowledge) that gain a familiar anyway. Making it kind of redundant to state 'arcane spellcaster'.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm merely challenging the wording in the feat.
Adept is a divine caster with a familiar, and rogues can now gain familiars too -- in fact, anyone can gain a familiar if they take eldritch heritage(arcane bloodline).
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An air elemental tumor just sounds icky. Guess how it comes out.
Again all you can do then is FAQ it -- I'm of the mind that improved familiar is purposefully reserved for arcane casters. Much like the arcane strike feat, it something that while others have similar things to advanced forms are left strictly to arcane casters.
Considering that we now have a feat that does absolutely nothing as of UC (I'm looking at you prone shooter) i would say that yes it may have been an oversight or even dev assumption that people would assume that the feat could in fact be taken by the alchemist
and anyone who took eldricth heritage could take improved familar at level 9 i would think.
and anyone who took eldricth heritage could take improved familar at level 9 i would think.
On this part I agree with you -- the rest... not so much.
Just saying that the Ultimate books are not written by just a few people and so its possible that someone assumed it would work and left it at that.
I would see no issue with it in my games but thats RAGM not RAW.
Having an arcane caster level is trivially easy. Assuming he has one of those, any problems with Improved Familiar?
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I agree with Abraham, that by RAW it wouldn't work. But what if, for some bizarre reason, you decided to go wizard/alchemist. If you start wizard and get alch. levels afterward, and you took tumor familiar after taking Imp. Familiar, would you then be able to make, say, a cacodaemon a tumor familiar on you stomach, making it look like a maw of teeth on your belly?