RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Recently one of my friends and regular players decided he wanted to get some experience GMing Pathfinder, and as I was likewise interested in playing a game for once instead of running one, I agreed that this was a good idea. We began browsing the Adventure Paths to decide on which one to run, and I wondered whether Jade Regent--being the most recent AP and therefore likely to be the beneficiary of five years of experience writing APs--wouldn't be a good idea to start off with.
However, a major concern I have after merely reading the Jade Regent Player's Guide is that the major NPCs of the Adventure Path are... well, really major. They have class levels in PC classes. They're strong, they're tough, they're experienced adventurers with wealth to their name. The PCs are all but required to design a pre-existing relationship with one of the NPCs, and of the campaign traits in the Player's Guide to represent these relationships, the vast majority of them put the PCs in a subordinate role.
The whole thing reads like an institutional parody of the worst "GM's Pet NPC" horror stories out there, minus the parody. The very fact that the Player's Guide offers a suggestion that the players could play the NPCs as their own PCs (as well as the fact that one of the NPCs is a long lost heir to an empire) suggests to me that the entire thing was written to star the NPCs, where the PCs end up being hangers-on, students, or people who are just incidentally along for the ride.
Is this impression accurate? I haven't read much more beyond the Player's Guide, on the possibility that my friend ends up running this AP, so for all I know the NPCs all die en route or otherwise disappear, or there are other events which serve to showcase the PCs as more than just plucky sidekicks.
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I have to agree, it is a bit heavy on the DM PC, but so are most adventures where you have to travel with named characters. On the one hand they need to be resilient enough so that an orc that passes by the PC does not just behead them but on the other hand they need to be weak enough to not outshine the heroes.
I'll be running this one probably after my Rise of the Runelords but the kids will just be adepts/warriors/commoners with cash to their name. Their actions will also be off camera.
I have a dislike for DM PC ever that I was a player in a group where they were weak enough to be rescued but strong enough to kick our characters behinds when we did not stick true to the book. I'll be fair that's more the DMs fault for not being able to think beyond the books.
I had the same idea after reading the Player's guide.
Do NOT go by the Player's Guide!
The AP is pretty normal with the PC's working with friends (the NPCs) as opposed to some other benefactor. The players guide is very misleading in it's "feel". I've read the first volume of the AP and it's pretty awesome. The NPCs don't do much and all the decisions are made by the PCs. Im currently in the second book and it's reading like the first, PCs are in total control.
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As a player, I don't get the impression that the NPCs are overpowered and will trump the PCs at all.
Think on it this way:
Sandru is a caravan leader. That's what he does. I very much doubt that a dozen guards and whatever merchants, etc would place their faith in the ability of a Warrior 1 to get their product to the next town, much less further away. So far in the game that I'm playing (granted it is a PbP, he's made us breakfast, and then hopped away to do caravan merchant things.
Shalelu is a ranger who lives outside the community. Again, doubt she'd be doing that very long in a place where goblins and worse thrive as a warrior 1.
Ameiko is a bard. Are we going to argue that a bard is overpowered? So far she has served drinks, food, and sang a song. Granted, with a nat 20, her song was much better than anything a PC could sing at first level without skill focus and really great charisma, but she wasn't inspiring courage, she was entertaining the patrons at her tavern. Her tavern, which she has pretty much been saddled to the passed few years.
Koya is an elderly cleric with wanderlust. With penalties to physical stats for age, she's not a combatant. Maybe she can heal some PCs if they don't have their own healer, but I wouldn't call that being better than the PCs.
I believe that being "forced" to relate yourself to one of the NPCs is more of a proactive measure to say "hey, you'll be with these guys for a while, why don't you pull up a chair and have a cup of care about them?" Your PC is free to be awesome in a way that they will not be, as they are NPCs and their actions are dictated by the AP. You can choose to ignore each and every one of the NPCs, and start a competitive relationship with them as you struggle to define yourself. That could be very fun.
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The end of the first adventure has a twist that firmly establishes the PCs as equal to the primary NPC, Ameiko, and superior to the other NPCs. And while Ameiko is pretty important, her role in the first two adventures is not heroic at all. Since her level is supposed to lag behind the PCs, that's probably not going to change much. Incompetent GMing aside, it's obvious from the AP books themselves that the PCs are intended to be the main characters.
The AP has done a very good job with keeping the NPC's out of the PC's way for module one.
The second module presents a bit of a challenge if the players insist on pestering the NPC's to come with them ( in which case I'd say that it's the players own fault ), because the NPC's motivation for staying apart from the main plot is a bit on the weak side.
But, yeah, there is a plot point in module two which makes the NPC's just staying with the caravan very unlikely, and I haven't heard from the module designer or James why they'd choose to not go off in pursuit with the PC's ( I am talking about the plot development at NP score 40 ).
To be sure, if the GM feels that the NPC's are more awesome than the PC's, that could be a problem, but that problem would lie more with the GM than the NPC's. As an upcoming GM for this AP myself ( could start this Sunday or in two weeks ), I am rather unhappy that we GM's are left hanging in the wind in regards to personality developments for those important NPC's in the second module. I'd rather have a bit more handholding from the Paizo writers on that account than have to come up with all developments by myself.
But, yeah, there is a plot point in module two which makes the NPC's just staying with the caravan very unlikely, and I haven't heard from the module designer or James why they'd choose to not go off in pursuit with the PC's ( I am talking about the plot development at NP score 40 ).
I'm just going to have the
That should solve that problem.
prototype00
I'm actually hoping that the NPCs are given a little bit more of the limelight, not to where they steal the show, but more than a paragraph about how to keep them off-scene.
Same here. I want to know how Ameiko feels and behaves during the journey. She's going to be Empress, what does that do to her emotionally?
How does Koya getting more vivacious play out? What are Sandru and Shalelu doing, other than hanging around? How do they feel about their friend possibly becoming the ruler of a nation?
All this stuff is missing from the actual modules, and I actually feel quite angry that the writers apparently didn't think this important enough to include, but we must have detailed write-ups about the backstory of NPC's who are going to be killed off or never seen.
All this stuff is missing from the actual modules, and I actually feel quite angry that the writers apparently didn't think this important enough to include, but we must have detailed write-ups about the backstory of NPC's who are going to be killed off or never seen.
All I can say to this is wow. How about YOU decide how the other NPCs react based on your groups playstyle? It's an adventure not a novel. Moving NPCs out of the way should be easy even though I agree that Ameiko's pals probably wouldn't sit around if she was kidnapped.
IMO Sandru would stay with Koya and watch the caravan, Koya is too old to go after Ameiko anyway. I'd have those two send the PCs out to search. Shalelu would be out before the kidnapping scouting out the next leg of the caravan's journey, I'd tell the group that she wasn't due back yet for a few more days, that's what Shalelu does anyway.APs are pretty basic, it really is up to the GM to make it better for his/her group. :)
The players guide is very misleading in it's "feel".
The trend continues!
All I can say to this is wow. How about YOU decide how the other NPCs react based on your groups playstyle? It's an adventure not a novel. Moving NPCs out of the way should be easy even though I agree that Ameiko's pals probably wouldn't sit around if she was kidnapped.
Well, how about YOU read what I actually wrote? Here, I'll quote it once more for you:
I want to know how Ameiko feels and behaves during the journey. She's going to be Empress, what does that do to her emotionally?
How does Koya getting more vivacious play out? What are Sandru and Shalelu doing, other than hanging around? How do they feel about their friend possibly becoming the ruler of a nation?
IMO Sandru would stay with Koya and watch the caravan, Koya is too old to go after Ameiko anyway. I'd have those two send the PCs out to search. Shalelu would be out before the kidnapping scouting out the next leg of the caravan's journey, I'd tell the group that she wasn't due back yet for a few more days, that's what Shalelu does anyway.
APs are pretty basic, it really is up to the GM to make it better for his/her group. :)
Oh, and btw., thanks for putting big spoilers in a player thread, I've been vague on purpose what event I was complaining about.
But since you have done the spoiling already, Koya is being played by one of players, so that is taken care of. Sandru could conceivably stay with the caravan, although I'd think the PC's would think less of him. And Shalelu scouting ahead is directly against what the module tells us: The caravan needs a local guide.
About the spoilers.... Sincerest apologies.
About the rest, you still missed my point. You can dictate how Ameiko feels and behaves. You can dictate and role-play it out how Shalelu and co. react to their friend
possibly becoming an empress. Same for exactly how vivacious Koya gets, and see how the players react to them and let it build naturally.
There's only so much room in an AP volume and it sounds like you are asking for a novella as far as how the NPCs interact with eachother. Flesh them out how you see fit. :|
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Ameiko is a bard. Are we going to argue that a bard is overpowered?
I'm willing to argue that a bard is an extremely effective party member and quite capable of taking any table of miscreants and turn them into an overpowered game stomping group without trying.
About the rest, you still missed my point. You can dictate how Ameiko feels and behaves. You can dictate and role-play it out how Shalelu and co. react to their friend
possibly becoming an empress. Same for exactly how vivacious Koya gets, and see how the players react to them and let it build naturally.
There's only so much room in an AP volume and it sounds like you are asking for a novella as far as how the NPCs interact with eachother. Flesh them out how you see fit. :|
And I am saying that this is a commercial AP and I think I have the right to expect the writers to at least make some suggestions for their character development. They can always put a disclaimer on that, in the vein of "if your NPC's developed differently, go with it". I'd vastly prefer it to reading the way too expanded backstory of a new NPC which will be dead after less than one minute of in-game time interacting with him.
The adventures should not be written as a novel for the GM and I've seen way too many of them drifting into that territory, when there was no way the players could know all the useless backstory for some NPC which only was there to be killed.
I pay Paizo to do the heavy lifting for me, otherwise I could homebrew it anyway.
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And I am saying that this is a commercial AP and I think I have the right to expect the writers to at least make some suggestions for their character development. They can always put a disclaimer on that, in the vein of "if your NPC's developed differently, go with it". I'd vastly prefer it to reading the way too expanded backstory of a new NPC which will be dead after less than one minute of in-game time interacting with him.
Both canned development and bloated backstories are a waste of words. I don't need to read about how Ameiko's feelings may or may not change from Book Three to Book Four any more than I need to read about her tragic adventure that the PCs weren't in. That information might be interesting, but it's not as useful as a list of awesome things for the PCs to do, like fight ninjas. Because that's pretty much what a good module is.
The players guide is very misleading in it's "feel".The trend continues!
Just out of curiosity, which other guide or book was misleading for you?
And I am saying that this is a commercial AP and I think I have the right to expect the writers to at least make some suggestions for their character development. They can always put a disclaimer on that, in the vein of "if your NPC's developed differently, go with it". I'd vastly prefer it to reading the way too expanded backstory of a new NPC which will be dead after less than one minute of in-game time interacting with him.Both canned development and bloated backstories are a waste of words. I don't need to read about how Ameiko's feelings may or may not change from Book Three to Book Four any more than I need to read about her tragic adventure that the PCs weren't in. That information might be interesting, but it's not as useful as a list of awesome things for the PCs to do, like fight ninjas. Because that's pretty much what a good module is.
If all you ever do is fight, sure. But this AP has been advertised by James Jacobs as especially roleplaying heavy for months before it came out. Seeing that he apparently meant it all to be "do it yourself" is disappointing in the extreme. Especially after some of the excellent modules in Carrion Crown, which gave us detailed heavy roleplaying encounters.
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If all you ever do is fight, sure. But this AP has been advertised by James Jacobs as especially roleplaying heavy for months before it came out. Seeing that he apparently meant it all to be "do it yourself" is disappointing in the extreme. Especially after some of the excellent modules in Carrion Crown, which gave us detailed heavy roleplaying encounters.
It is roleplaying heavy, it's just that the roleplay isn't lasered in on the NPC sidekicks. An encounter meant to give one of the sidekicks more depth is kind of nice, but it's just not as useful as an encounter that actually furthers the campaign's plot.
If all you ever do is fight, sure. But this AP has been advertised by James Jacobs as especially roleplaying heavy for months before it came out. Seeing that he apparently meant it all to be "do it yourself" is disappointing in the extreme. Especially after some of the excellent modules in Carrion Crown, which gave us detailed heavy roleplaying encounters.It is roleplaying heavy, it's just that the roleplay isn't lasered in on the NPC sidekicks. An encounter meant to give one of the sidekicks more depth is kind of nice, but it's just not as useful as an encounter that actually furthers the campaign's plot.
In what I've seen so far, it actually is very much lasered in on the recurring NPC's. Most of the normal NPC's gets one or two scenes of short interaction and then are most likely never seen again. The obvious exceptions are Spivey, Kelda and probably Helgarval, who are also set up as possible traveling companions.
Compared to modules like Trial of the Beast from Carrion Crown, there is exceptionally little roleplaying aid written out so far in Jade Regent. We get as much backstory on one-shot villains like Kimandatsu and Goti Runecaster than on NPC's who we are supposed to GM for the whole of the story, and I find that vastly lacking.
I am not asking for much, I just want some guidelines as to how the important NPC's are supposed to develop as persons. If actual events change that, it is easy enough to modify.
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In what I've seen so far, it actually is very much lasered in on the recurring NPC's. Most of the normal NPC's gets one or two scenes of short interaction and then are most likely never seen again. The obvious exceptions are Spivey, Kelda and probably Helgarval, who are also set up as possible traveling companions.
Compared to modules like Trial of the Beast from Carrion Crown, there is exceptionally little roleplaying aid written out so far in Jade Regent. We get as much backstory on one-shot villains like Kimandatsu and Goti Runecaster than on NPC's who we are supposed to GM for the whole of the story, and I find that vastly lacking.
I am not asking for much, I just want some guidelines as to how the important NPC's are supposed to develop as persons. If actual events change that, it is easy enough to modify.
It doesn't matter how an NPC is "supposed" to develop, unless their development drives the story. The way Aldern Foxglove develops, for example, shapes The Skinsaw Murders. The problem is that the characters in question are GMPCs, and GMPCs are not allowed to drive the story. Stealing the show is unacceptable, and so none of their development can be much more than filler.
It doesn't matter how an NPC is "supposed" to develop, unless their development drives the story. The way Aldern Foxglove develops, for example, shapes The Skinsaw Murders. The problem is that the characters in question are GMPCs, and GMPCs are not allowed to drive the story. Stealing the show is unacceptable, and so none of their development can be much more than filler.
Uh, the four important NPC's are not GMPC's. They are not supposed to be integral part of the party actively going on adventures. The danger of them stealing the players thunder is actively avoided by sidelining them when the actual adventuring happens.
BUT they are supposed to accompany the player characters throughout this whole journey, staying in the background during the actual action sequences, but staying very much on the forefront as consistent companions with whom the players are supposed to interact (however poorly that was done in module two on both accounts).
As such I feel it way more important for the writers to give GM's some pointers as to how they might develop those four NPC's ( with the number of them growing at least by the factor of one from module two to three ), than to give a two page write-up for some monster which will be dead after the first interaction it has with the group.
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Uh, the four important NPC's are not GMPC's. They are not supposed to be integral part of the party actively going on adventures. The danger of them stealing the players thunder is actively avoided by sidelining them when the actual adventuring happens.
BUT they are supposed to accompany the player characters throughout this whole journey, staying in the background during the actual action sequences, but staying very much on the forefront as consistent companions with whom the players are supposed to interact (however poorly that was done in module two on both accounts).
As such I feel it way more important for the writers to give GM's some pointers as to how they might develop those four NPC's ( with the number of them growing at least by the factor of one from module two to three ), than to give a two page write-up for some monster which will be dead after the first interaction it has with the group.
For what it's worth, we're completely agreed that there are a few monsters with way too much backstory. Nobody needs a half-page description of how a minor villain moved out of his mom's basement.*
But otherwise, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see the need for describing minor character development in the actual books. For instance, I have this scene in mind where Shalelu gets arrested for punching out some random guy who makes fun of her ears; then, much later in the campaign, an actual bad guy does the same thing, and she just shrugs it off, having matured over the course of the party's travels. While I think it's a lovely way to add colour to her character, I would hate to see it in the book, because every paragraph spent on stuff that isn't important is one less paragraph describing something that is. Like ninja fights.
*this is an actual thing
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Uh, the four important NPC's are not GMPC's. They are not supposed to be integral part of the party actively going on adventures. The danger of them stealing the players thunder is actively avoided by sidelining them when the actual adventuring happens.
BUT they are supposed to accompany the player characters throughout this whole journey, staying in the background during the actual action sequences, but staying very much on the forefront as consistent companions with whom the players are supposed to interact (however poorly that was done in module two on both accounts).
As such I feel it way more important for the writers to give GM's some pointers as to how they might develop those four NPC's ( with the number of them growing at least by the factor of one from module two to three ), than to give a two page write-up for some monster which will be dead after the first interaction it has with the group.
For what it's worth, we're completely agreed that there are a few monsters with way too much backstory. Nobody needs a half-page description of how a minor villain moved out of his mom's basement.*
But otherwise, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see the need for describing minor character development in the actual books. For instance, I have this scene in mind where Shalelu gets arrested for punching out some random guy who makes fun of her ears; then, much later in the campaign, an actual bad guy does the same thing, and she just shrugs it off, having matured over the course of the party's travels. While I think it's a lovely way to add colour to her character, I would hate to see it in the book, because every paragraph spent on stuff that isn't important is one less paragraph describing something that is. Like ninja fights.
*this is an actual thing
Yeah, I think agreeing to disagree is the best thing here. I can stage a Ninja fight every day of the week, but actual roleplaying help would be something I can appreciate much more as a GM.
As a GM I could appreciate more of the writers efforts going to the parts about the PCs over how the NPCs react and behave around one another. Which is pretty much what they did. :)
You mentioned the RP factors from Trial of the Beast, it is an excellent RP module, as is Sixfold Trial from CoT. Both modules had a little more written about the NPCs but not much on how they react to one another. All I'm saying is go with what you have and know about the NPCs, play the PCs off if it and be more dynamic than have a writers rigid guidelines about how they react ( like the Haunting of Harrowstone's trust rigid ruleset). If I ever run Harrowstone, I'd dump the rigid guidelines on how NPCs react and base that instead on how the PCs go about earning their trust.
It's not the same as how NPCs react to one another but the same kind of rigid guidelines concerning NPCs apply here too IMHO. Ymmv as usual.
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I have to agree with magnuskn. It isn't about "rigid" encounters, it is that most of NPCs are so unimportant they can be cut without notice. What is the point of having these supposedly super important NPCs, if they aren't even going to be mentioned in the text beyond "NPCs could help, but don't let them take the spotlight?" I could do that with any NPC, I don't need these specific ones. Maybe things will change later, but right now I think I could cut Koya and Shalelu without changing the AP in any way. Heck, Shalelu is on the cover, and her name appears a grand total of four times in the text: once in a list of NPCs, twice on a list of ways to add to your relationship score, and a box stating that she is on the cover!
Ameiko is needed as a MacGuffin, and that is about it. When the one thing that actually happens to her in this volume happens, it has nothing to do with her personality or actions. It just needs to happen to someone, and she is a convenient target. The other NPCs (who get 2 page write ups) don't even react to her in an appropriate way, which I would think would be "immediate murder."
Sandru gets a bit of love, with a few mentions of things he might do for the PCs, or how it might interact with certain characters. That is the sort of thing I want. Shout outs about how they could help or hinder the party's progress. That idea about Shalelu getting in a fight? Great! The PCs could decide to break her out of jail if they think they need her skills, but risk causing other troubles for themselves. Alternatively, it would be a good way to logically explain why she doesn't she go crush every enemy in the volume by herself.
I guess I'm getting a bit ranty, but it is a bit disappointing. Great effort went in to tying PCs to these NPCs, but no work has been done to tie the NPCs to the game. Vignettes, encounters, even mentions of them would be greatly appreciated. Maybe even design encounters with the idea that one or more of them WILL accompany the PCs, if this is what would logically happen in the situation.
Okay, okay, stopping ranting now.
I'm probably going to sit down with the Slave Girl I Am Making Run This AP and whip out some roleplaying centric encounters based on my own interpretations of the NPCs, provided the Slave Girl I Am Making Run This AP says it's okay I write it for her. Then I'll put it on the forums.
*this is an actual thing
Where? Tell me tell me tell me. I love AP trivia.
I have to agree with magnuskn. It isn't about "rigid" encounters, it is that most of NPCs are so unimportant they can be cut without notice. What is the point of having these supposedly super important NPCs, if they aren't even going to be mentioned in the text beyond "NPCs could help, but don't let them take the spotlight?" I could do that with any NPC, I don't need these specific ones. Maybe things will change later, but right now I think I could cut Koya and Shalelu without changing the AP in any way. Heck, Shalelu is on the cover, and her name appears a grand total of four times in the text: once in a list of NPCs, twice on a list of ways to add to your relationship score, and a box stating that she is on the cover!
I'll try to be clearer as im not sure my choice of words might have been the best to get my point across. I never meant "Rigid Encounters", just rigid guildlines pertaining to how the NPCs should behave to one another like in Magnus' examples.
For example, I liked Magnus' question/idea of how folks like Shalelu would react to the idea of Ameiko becoming an empress in a faraway land. Im suggesting that instead of Paizo putting that into the module as a set guideline, why not RP it out as Shalelu becoming more morose as the caravan continues on it's journey. The PCs can eventually get her to talk about it and she might explain that if and when Ameiko becomes an empress she may not see her friend anymore in Varisia etc. This way you get the PCs involved and they can do as they see fit, maybe they will talk to Ameiko about Shalelu's fears, etc. This way the PCs stay in the limelight and the NPCs get fleshed out as much as Magnuskn suggests the do. We dont need writers picking this for us.Same for the whole relationship score thing. Maybe someone gets involved with Koya and gets serious about her. We have guidlines as to her persona already. She can fool around with that PC and dump him if he gets too serious, as she is looking for a grand adventure, her last hurrah so to speak, instead of getting tied down to someone.
There are alot of possibilities here that we can flesh out.
On a tangent regarding super-important NPCs.... one of the main gripes with some players/gms about RotRL, SD, etc is that they start out in a great town/city with awesome NPCs, they build relationships with these NPCS, and then leave without coming back.
This AP is awesome in that regard. You basically take the town with you by having this caravan. Think of Koya's wagon as the Sandpoint cathedral, or Ameiko's Rusty Dragon is anywhere along the road with free drinks nightly. You still develop these great NPC relationships without ever leaving these NPCs behind for good.
Personally, when I run this I'll have Shayliss Vinder replace one of the varisian twins. I'll have her sick of her controlling father with the death of her sister's death (Skinsaw) finally getting to her making her want to leave sandpoint behind. This is a tangental example of things you can RP without having the module writer's give you a rigid example of how they think it might be played.
They cant cover everything, and Im glad they left it to us anyway.
:)
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*this is an actual thingWhere? Tell me tell me tell me. I love AP trivia.
As a GM I could appreciate more of the writers efforts going to the parts about the PCs over how the NPCs react and behave around one another. Which is pretty much what they did. :)
You mentioned the RP factors from Trial of the Beast, it is an excellent RP module, as is Sixfold Trial from CoT. Both modules had a little more written about the NPCs but not much on how they react to one another. All I'm saying is go with what you have and know about the NPCs, play the PCs off if it and be more dynamic than have a writers rigid guidelines about how they react ( like the Haunting of Harrowstone's trust rigid ruleset). If I ever run Harrowstone, I'd dump the rigid guidelines on how NPCs react and base that instead on how the PCs go about earning their trust.
It's not the same as how NPCs react to one another but the same kind of rigid guidelines concerning NPCs apply here too IMHO. Ymmv as usual.
I actually played the trust mechanic in HoH exactly as you said and it worked out quite fine, much more organic than just having the NPC's adjust mechanically at just the right trust score.
But I see some guidelines for the NPC development as something which could give me some much needed guidance on how to develop them on my own.
The write-ups we had in Brinewall Legacy did not give me enough to get a firm grasp on them yet and seeing a bit of pre-mandated development would help immensely to work out where their motivations lie, besides "Follow their friend Ameiko to Tian Xia". I'd like to get some deeper insights into Ameikos motivations. Is she compelled by duty to go to Tian Xia or does it just seem like a great ol' adventure to her? Something like that is important as to how to characterize her when interacting with the people around her.
As to the rest, exactly what Mort said. Having those supposedly Very Important NPC's just floating around, without giving them at least some limelight or character developments, makes them less than interesting.
And having them react very strangely when Ameiko gets kidnapped
Maybe James or Greg Vaughan may dignify the thread and give us some pointers if we are just not seeing something.
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The NPC's in this AP are as vital to the fun and success of this story as Korvosa was to Curse of the Crimson Throne.
It isn't an unreasonable request to have some word-count devoted to some well thought over NPC goals-actions-motivations at milestone points in an adventure module. The personality and flair of the NPC is totally within the purvue of the GM. However, in such an NPC driven story line as Jade Regent...we deserve better than minimal "and then the NPC's step aside so that the PC's can be heroes." As a GM it leaves us pulling our straggly beards in frustration to come up with a way to weave that into a story that is fun to tell and as a player it cheapens the event and breeds hostility toward NPC's that the GM is going to be reading about and jamming down his players' throats for module after module.
Player: "Wait so Bort and Herschel love NPC Alpha...but...it's Sunday so they are going to church instead of helping us out in finding NPC Alpha? F those guys, I don't trust them anymore."
GM: "no they really do love NPC Alpha...it's just...well they really really need to pray and then they have to help their grandma move apartments and then Fringe is on so they have to get home for that."
The NPC's in this AP are as vital to the fun and success of this story as Korvosa was to Curse of the Crimson Throne.
It isn't an unreasonable request to have some word-count devoted to some well thought over NPC goals-actions-motivations at milestone points in an adventure module. The personality and flair of the NPC is totally within the purvue of the GM. However, in such an NPC driven story line as Jade Regent...we deserve better than minimal "and then the NPC's step aside so that the PC's can be heroes." As a GM it leaves us pulling our straggly beards in frustration to come up with a way to weave that into a story that is fun to tell and as a player it cheapens the event and breeds hostility toward NPC's that the GM is going to be reading about and jamming down his players' throats for module after module.
Player: "Wait so Bort and Herschel love NPC Alpha...but...it's Sunday so they are going to church instead of helping us out in finding NPC Alpha? F those guys, I don't trust them anymore."
GM: "no they really do love NPC Alpha...it's just...well they really really need to pray and then they have to help their grandma move apartments and then Fringe is on so they have to get home for that."
EXACTLY. I think I got Greg Vaughans attention in the GM thread, I hope he can pass by here and give us some pointers.
Gah, my group starts the AP on Sunday and I still need to come up with a good starting encounter and get a good grip on Shalelus and Sandrus personality! Argh!
Back to the OP - I don't think there's any risk that the NPCs will overshadow the PCs. In part one, they tend to keep to their own most of the time (oh no, dear Ameiko is unconscious - we need to take care of her and hold the fort, could you please go check what this may be about). Later on the PCs should be a bit stronger anyway. Besides, I'm not keen on keeping near-useless NPCs around when two blows from a CR-appropriate creature would end them. The last thing I want is Ameiko becoming an Ashley - and for those who haven't played Resident Evil 4, that means "a whiny, helpless brat you need to save time and again and whose death is an automatic game over."
It's a balancing act: you want the major NPCs your characters hang around to be cool, but you don't want them being too cool. Frankly, I expect most characters wouldn't make a big issue about it unless the DM abuses the NPCs thoroughly, but it's a matter of taste.
As for pointers for interaction between them, I wouldn't mind a bit more, and I guess those who don't like it can always change it.
@ Magnuskin - I haven't been preparing to run the AP, but I imagine that as written, the big 4 NPCs all have good reasons to want to take a nice long trip away from Sandpoint, and are just waiting for a good excuse.
Sandru somewhere between a bon vivant, businessman, and a bit of an adventurer (I don't mean "kills goblins for their loot", rather that one of those people who really does like a challenge, and doesn't just put that on his CV). There was a bit that he might eventually be moving into local politics, but as I see it, he doesn't feel ready to do it yet, partly because he apparently doesn't like being associated with his brother all that much. The dude has family issues, and they have kept him from staying long in Sandpoint in the past. Plus, he has his surrogate mum wishing how she wants to do a long-distance trip with him at some point, so he has yet another reason for a nice big trip. Especially if it brings him coin, and he's (supposed to be) good enough at his job that it should bring him coin.
Shalelu is meant to be a bit of a mystery at first as per her own description, but that's partly because I think she's meant to be a bit of a clean slate. The thing is, as of the start of the AP it seems she doesn't have any outstanding issues left: she's resolved her parenthood issues, left her childhood home for that elven wanderlust period, and more or less saw her last project - seeing Sandpoint become a vibrant settlement ready to look after itself - to completion. She's now having a break, so to speak, and looking for something new to apply herself to. Then she hears about a friend of hers, who's been a little down recently, is thinking about a big, long trip. Why the heck not?
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The four major NPCs are presented in the first adventure, with notes on their backgrounds and personalities, so the GM can take them and do what they want with them throughout the rest of the AP.
We have not spent a large amount of space in other volumes of the AP detailing more of the NPCs' personalities and reactions, precisely because that may then conflict with how GMs have decided to run the characters in their own campaigns.
At the same time, we have six different authors working more or less simultaneously on the six adventures of the AP, and it is therefore impossible for them to know exactly how another author might have developed the NPCs in volumes preceding theirs. So once again, we have leave most of the NPC development to the GM.
Ultimately, the AP is a series of adventures for the PCs, with encounters and stories for them to interact with. The more space we devote to the NPCs, the more they have the chance to overshadow the PCs, which is something we most definitely do NOT want, and the less space we have to present interesting new encounters and adventures for the PCs.
The "NPC appendix" is designed to give the GM all they need to know to play the characters in the campaign. Putting significantly more of this information in every volume of the AP makes it less of an adventure for PCs, and more of a story about NPCs, in my mind.
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I'll offer my two cents:
I worked on the finale for Jade Regent. So, with the whole campaign focusing on Ameiko ascending to the throne (with the PCs' help and support, of course), the NPC interactions (at least with her) needed to matter. Looking back, I'm not sure I went as in-depth as you guys seem to desire, though. I mean, my turnover is in Rob's hands. He's following this thread. So, he's still got time to tweak things if he wants.
I'm certainly not going to talk about anything specific in the adventure, though. I'm still under NDA, after all. More generally, though, I wanted to support Rob's position here as he's conveyed it to you. We're working on these adventures simultaneously. And, while the authors consult one another when we need something foreshadowed in someone's adventure as it leads into our own, we generally just stick to the outline Paizo provides and try to make our particular adventure as awesome as it can be. And then, we depend on our developers to tuck things into place and make it that much more awesome for the purposes of the overarching campaign.
Would it be nice if we went in-depth on explaining lots of NPC reactions to what's going on in the adventure (including the possible actions the PCs take)? Sure. But we can't anticipate all of that. In addition, how we (as the authors) choose to interpret a particular NPC's reaction, might completely differ from how you (as the GM) need to interpret it for your players and their specific PCs. You know your game and your gaming group better than we do. You know what kinds of PCs they've chosen to play. You know what relationships and traits they've selected to connect with one of the NPCs over the course of the AP. If you think one of them would likely bond with Shalelu and you want to help them deepen that NPC relationship with roleplayed conversations and insights into their feelings about Ameiko and the rest of the how the adventure plays out, that's really your purview as GM to determine. We can't anticipate all those possibilities and weave them into the very tight space we have available to detail the things we need to happen to move the main plotline along.
So, I'd say you're empowered as the GM to build upon the framework we gave you in these adventures and NPC writeups. Even some of the monstrous NPCs and their backstories could prove useful to you if you want to widen them out and connect something to your players' PCs' background. But only you know when it's appropriate to do that. We can't force it. And we can't spend a sidebar on every NPC to explain all those possibilities to you. At best, we can spend some word count describing those NPCs as fully as we can so you get a sense of their personality, interests, and pet-peeves. From there, you should have the tools to spin and use them however you want within the storyline.
Lastly, I think it's really important to understand we're very reluctant (as authors) of describing NPCs (especially benevolent ones) in ways where they might overshadow what the PCs are doing in the adventure. The "story" is supposed to be determined by your players in how they have their PCs act and react. Not by how you have the NPCs act and react. Now, that said, I can appreciate that you want a better idea of how these awesome NPCs James provided in "The Brinewall Legacy" might participate in the campaign adventure-by-adventure. But that's mostly for you to decide. If your players develop deep connections with Shalelu and Ameiko, but not Sandru and Koya, only you would know that. If they make a comment about someone having big ears and Shalelu overhears it, only you are aware of that situation in your game...but at least you know how she would probably react given her character description and the sensitivity she has towards things like that.
If you're worried about "what to do" with the NPCs during certain parts of the adventure, hopefully there's enough "meat" in their write-ups to guide you without us spending additional word count in every one of those situations to explain what they'd do or how'd they react. We're intentionally painting with broad brush strokes to define the characters. But we're not painting their exact involvement with every plot twist. That's because your PCs need to be at the forefront of that. And, inasmuch as they can consult with these NPCs before or after they take their own actions, those are the punches you get to roll with...hopefully armed with some great NPCs to roleplay it out with them.
Anyway, that's just my two cents. I can completely understand where you're coming from. I'm just trying to help widen what Rob shared here and give you one freelancer's perspective. Hopefully, you've still got the tools you need to run an awesome game for your players...drawing upon the material the authors have provided. But, in addition to that, you have access to these messageboards. Quite honestly, that's their purpose. Other GMs, Paizo developers, and occasionally the actual authors of the adventures themselves can chime in here with (properly spoilered) commentary, suggestions, and ideas to help you adapt your game. And, by how you've described your particular need here with regards to deeper insights into possible NPC reactions, I'm sure you'll have no shortage of folks ready to lend a hand. And, by all of you sharing your experiences and thoughts here, anyone else with similar needs will have a resource they can consult to improve their game, too. That's what makes the Paizo community so awesome.
Best wishes on your upcoming game,
--Neil
Thanks for giving official comment, guys. My initial reaction was to write a long, somewhat grumbly post, but I really couldn't come up with reasonable solutions to the problems I planned on presenting. I guess in the end, there was just no way the adventures could reasonably meet the expectations I had developed. I would love to have an AP with vitally important, integrated NPCs. Encounters balanced towards their inclusion, scenarios created with the fact they might be there in mind. But I can appreciate the difficulties in the creation of such a thing, and the reasons for not going as far as some of us would have liked.
I do, however, have two comments I'd like to make. First, I think the Player's Guide for this AP missed the mark. All the background traits aim at making PCs attached to the NPCs, when what they really needed was a reason to go on the adventure themselves. If the NPCs were absolutely vital to the story, this would make sense. But if a character's motivation for going on the adventure is being friends with, say, Shalelu, having her refuse to help on something gives that PC serious problems of motivation. Yet you can't easily allow her along, because the adventure isn't balanced for that. Likewise, the relationships give no reason for the initial expedition into the marsh, and can contribute to a feeling of being sidekicks or tag-alongs (even without the NPCs actually winning fights for you).
The other thing is, I really wish at least a little service had been done in regards to reasons for the NPCs to not participate. This is especially difficult with Shalelu, who is both the most powerful and has the least reason to not help out. I mean, her only reason for being there is to help Ameiko. I could sort of get behind her not wanting to abandon Ameiko in the first volume, but this volume barely even mentioned the problem. I know I could make up a solution (I'll probably go with having her severely poisoned), but I would have appreciated the issue at least being mentioned.
Otherwise, love the AP, can't wait to run it, etc etc etc. Thanks again for showing up and commenting on the issue.
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Yeah, just like Mort I feel a bit grumpy about this, but I think I'll let something of it out.
One of the things James advertised for months ahead of the release of the first module was that his AP would be especially role-playing heavy. As the first issue of Jade Regent came out, it became quickly clear that the "special emphasis" on roleplaying would be centered on the notion of the important NPC's. The module itself clearly had less roleplaying opportunities built in than The Haunting of Harrowstone ( and subsequent modules in Carrion Crown ). The actual content of Brinewall Legacy clearly mostly is some exploration, a monster bash and a dungeon delve.
If I read Rob correctly, the roleplaying elements pertaining to the NPC's will actually be taken out of the modules, even if writers like Neil inserted them, so that GM's can come up with their own. I do not think this a good idea, so please log my protest as to this decision. Not that it matters much, since I am only a costumer, but if the rest of the modules are similarly built than the first two ones, you are choking off the remaining roleplaying opportunities here and this can't be a good idea. I'd much rather have Jade Regent become a Curse of the Crimson Throne or Carrion Crown, rather than Serpent's Skull.
It's not that I don't appreciate your feedback to my concerns, even if it is quite contrary to what I wanted to hear. It gives me the necessary information as to what I have to do to make this AP an success with the very roleplaying heavy group I have wanted to run it with for the last year.
But I think the next time James goes off telling costumers that an AP is especially roleplaying heavy, I hope he does it with the caveat that the RP part is mostly "do-it-yourself" for the GM, instead of receiving active and continuous support from the material itself. You know, like we get it in Carrion Crown. Which I am sorry that I am not running it with this particular group, but rather with my more hack'n-slashy other group, but I already know that running the same AP for two groups at once kills my own motivation really quick.
And, Rob, I understand that there are concerns that the NPC's could possibly overshadow the PC's. It's definitely a legitimate issue and a few GM's may overdo them to the point that their players get sick of them very fast.
But, on the other hand, there should have been more extensive character profiles for them, so that we GM's have the tools to built them into something definite. If indidual GM's disagreed on some character points, it would have been easy to change those, but more detailed and extensive guidelines would have been a great help, IMHO. Much more than some extra pages of backstory on one-shot villains. The NPC's are the recurring focal point in this AP for the players and as such I think you underestimate their total importance for the AP.
Neil, I think a decent GM will be quite able to not have the NPC's overshadow the PC's. Nonetheless I think it is an important issue of verisimilitude that those NPC's are accounted for in the modules themselves. The Brinewall Legacy did a good job of keeping them out of the PC's hair, but near enough to come to their aid, if necessary.
Night of Frozen Shadows does a rather poor job at that, because it keeps them in a very unspecified limbo, gives them nothing of relevance to do ( sorry, but "securing supplies" goes only so far ) and does not account for their reaction to an event which is highly relevant to them. Further modules should not fall into this trap and I hope Rob takes care of that from now on. If we don't get further character developments for them, at least their general existance should not be ignored or their natural reactions to the unfolding plot discounted.
Even if the answers were not exactly what I was hoping for, many thanks for writing them to both of you. :)
Speaking for myself, I agree with Rob McReary. The NPC appendix is more than enough to build a personality profile for each of them.
Night of Frozen Shadows does a rather poor job at that, because it keeps them in a very unspecified limbo, gives them nothing of relevance to do ( sorry, but "securing supplies" goes only so far ) and does not account for their reaction to an event which is highly relevant to them.
I disagree here again. I'll rewrite part of what I posted earlier...
If you are talking about the Ameiko thing. I would play Sandru as semi-enraged and chomping at the bit to go after her with the PCs but he wont leave Koya and the caravan alone and without protection out of sheer duty. I'd play Koya as being too old for the violent parts (a.k.a. dungeon crawls/assaults). I'd have her argue with Sandru to go with the PCs but ultimately he will refuse to leave her and the caravan behind. Shalelu is easy to get rid of. I'll just have her scout far ahead every time the caravan stops at any major places, requiring X amount of days round trip until she gets back. You can have her get back whenever you want, maybe come to the PCs rescue if things get brutal.As far as roleplaying the NPCs personalities go, you can try something else. In a tabletop setting, I would probably let my PCs read some of the appendix. I'd pick one NPC for each player (hopefully match them by what trait they took), and pull that player aside and ask him/her how they think the NPC would react to certain situations/questions.
For example your questions about Shalelu's reactions to Ameiko becoming an empress, when the time comes have that player you matched with Shalelu play her during that roleplaying interaction between the NPCs.
This way the players could still be involved, even with NPC roleplaying situations. I know if a GM asked me to RP my take on the NPC's personality, I would enjoy it.
YMMV.
YMMV.
It does indeed.
It seems that myself and others were expecting Baldur's Gate 2 level of character development and interaction, and instead we are getting Baldur's Gate 1 type character development and interaction.
Which brings me back to another things James said, that they were looking at the BioWare games for inspiration for the companions in this AP. But in which modern BioWare game do the companions get just a set-up and zero character development?
It seems that myself and others were expecting Baldur's Gate 2 level of character development and interaction, and instead we are getting Baldur's Gate 1 type character development and interaction.Which brings me back to another things James said, that they were looking at the BioWare games for inspiration for the companions in this AP. But in which modern BioWare game do the companions get just a set-up and zero character development?
I think your expectations are off. I see pretty clear borrowings from BioWare (Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, and even moreso DragonAge and DragonAge 2) in the Romance/Rivalry relationship rules. THAT's what he's talking about. :)
I think your expectations are off. I see pretty clear borrowings from BioWare (Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, and even moreso DragonAge and DragonAge 2) in the Romance/Rivalry relationship rules. THAT's what he's talking about. :)
The problem is, at least in my recollections, he talked about taking inspiration from Bioware while at the same time saying the path was role-play heavy. As much as I hate the term, rules about relationship points and romance scores is about as "roll-play" as you can get. Is it really unreasonable to have assumed he meant things like NPC subplots and storylines, or at least more support and integration than a couple pages of background? We got that in Serpent's Skull, which I don't think anyone would argue is roleplay heavy.
I think your expectations are off. I see pretty clear borrowings from BioWare (Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, and even moreso DragonAge and DragonAge 2) in the Romance/Rivalry relationship rules. THAT's what he's talking about. :)The problem is, at least in my recollections, he talked about taking inspiration from Bioware while at the same time saying the path was role-play heavy. As much as I hate the term, rules about relationship points and romance scores is about as "roll-play" as you can get. Is it really unreasonable to have assumed he meant things like NPC subplots and storylines, or at least more support and integration than a couple pages of background? We got that in Serpent's Skull, which I don't think anyone would argue is roleplay heavy.
And again what Mort said. Nice to have someone write things down better than I probably could have expressed it.
I think your expectations are off. I see pretty clear borrowings from BioWare (Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, and even moreso DragonAge and DragonAge 2) in the Romance/Rivalry relationship rules. THAT's what he's talking about. :)The problem is, at least in my recollections, he talked about taking inspiration from Bioware while at the same time saying the path was role-play heavy. As much as I hate the term, rules about relationship points and romance scores is about as "roll-play" as you can get. Is it really unreasonable to have assumed he meant things like NPC subplots and storylines, or at least more support and integration than a couple pages of background? We got that in Serpent's Skull, which I don't think anyone would argue is roleplay heavy.
The point tracking is just that.. tracking. What influences it is the decisions, and the success/failure in carrying out the decisions, that the Player Characters make.. to rescue or not to rescue.. to insult or not to insult.. to take exception or not to take exception to a crass comment.. these are all role-playing instances. One decision can make a more favorable impression on this NPC, while the other makes it less favorable.
"Roll-playing" as the term is mostly used is when the PC has no personality and lets the dice decide.. the character is all about mechanics, and maybe says something like "I figure a Lawful Good person has a 75% chance of doing X, so I'm going to roll for it."
Unless the PCs are letting the dice make the decisions for them, then it is not "Roll-playing", at least not as I see the term used most often.
What is it that you are looking for? "Scripts" like some of the older computer games? "A fights defensively", "B attacks aggressively", "C casts defensive spells before entering combat", "D stays close to A and tries to prevent opponents from closing to melee range" .. something like that?
If that's the case, then that's why I say the expectations are off-base. The writers cannot predict how much or how little assistance from the NPCs your party will need. Remember that even the games with scripts, the players have control over which is used.. their choices change the way the game plays. Now, as GMs, you are the ones who control both aspects... you need to adjudicate the interactions of the PCs and the NPCs. Have the PCs earned some positive points? Then the NPCs may trust them to take care of these matters without help. If the PCs have not earned much rivalry, maybe the NPCs don't trust them to do it alone, and insist on going along. If the PCs have earned some rivalry, maybe the NPCs set off ahead of the PCs to try to get the jump on them and "show the upstarts".
All of that is about how the GM breathes life into the numbers.. the score just provides some guidance as to what kind of mood the past has created.
In the end, the writers can only provide a starting point for the NPCs and relationships, just as the adventure can only show you where the opponents start the encouter.. after that, you respond based on the PCs' actions, and the situation is dynamic. The relationships and NPCs are similar.. the starting conditions, and some tips on how the NPC will react in some cases, are provided in the NPC writeup. How that develops, or even if that develops, depends on the Players and on how the GM reacts to the PCs' actions. If anything, each of the relationships is like a long, drawn-out encounter that begins in the first adventure and doesn't complete until much later. That makes the whole very much role-play oriented, as described.
Or at least, that's how I see it.
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The point tracking is just that.. tracking. What influences it is the decisions, and the success/failure in carrying out the decisions, that the Player Characters make.. to rescue or not to rescue.. to insult or not to insult.. to take exception or not to take exception to a crass comment.. these are all role-playing instances. One decision can make a more favorable impression on this NPC, while the other makes it less favorable.
That is all well and good, except it is irrelevant to a discussion of the system (as well as whether or not this is a roleplaying AP). You can always insult people or give them gifts, this system just gives mechanical values to that. I could give Shalelu nightly lectures on goblin superiority and not influence her in any way because I didn't max intimidate. Being insulted BY her doesn't do anything to our relationship score, whether I respond or not.
And lets face it, to rescue or not rescue is not a roleplaying choice. You can choose to derail the entire Adventure Path, or not. Even if you decide to not rescue the NPC, there is another NPC there that you absolutely have to save to continue the AP.
"Roll-playing" as the term is mostly used is when the PC has no personality and lets the dice decide.. the character is all about mechanics, and maybe says something like "I figure a Lawful Good person has a 75% chance of doing X, so I'm going to roll for it."
Unless the PCs are letting the dice make the decisions for them, then it is not "Roll-playing", at least not as I see the term used most often.
Uh... your relationships with the NPCs, as presented, is entirely determined in mechanical ways. Koya, mechanically, is going to care more about a charismatic stranger who gives her gifts than her low-charisma son who didn't max Diplomacy and doesn't constantly hand out trinkets. Hanging out with Sandru all the time will make you friends at the rate of one point/level, and no amount of personal compatibility will change that. If you want to be better friends, you have to bring him take-out and make a Diplomacy check. If anything, this system turns PC/NPC interaction into a min-maxer's dream. Crank up the Intimidate and make the (free!) insults to everyone to get piles of experience points and eventual capstone bonuses.
I don't want to keep harping on the relationship system, though. Its benefits and failings is basically irrelevant to the main thrust of my argument, which is that the AP doesn't really match the hype. Extra mechanics do not make something more or less roleplay related. The rewards of the system may have been created as a way of influencing people to pay more attention to the NPCs, but I feel it fails at that. There are carrots for being a high intimidate jerk who insults everyone or a high diplomacy person who buys friendship with gifts. Otherwise, it just takes relationships and romances out of the hands of the GM and gives them over to the mechanical world. Instead of roleplaying being based on the past, it is based on the past + die rolls. You can argue if this is better or worse, but I don't think you can say it is more "roleplay heavy."
What is it that you are looking for? "Scripts" like some of the older computer games? "A fights defensively", "B attacks aggressively", "C casts defensive spells before entering combat", "D stays close to A and tries to prevent opponents from closing to melee range" .. something like that?
If that's the case, then that's why I say the expectations are...
If that is what you think, I am presenting myself completely wrong. Firstly because combat actions are basically irrelevant to what I am talking about, and second because such "scripts" already exist (check out the "During Combat" section of any stat block).
What I am talking about is NPCs that actually matter to the story. Lets keep looking at Bioware games: since Baldur's Gate II, basically every NPC you pick up is going to have at least one special side quest. They have dialogue they interject into conversations with other NPCs that can, at times, help or hinder your progress. They will banter and interact with each other and the story, making the whole thing richer and more interesting. This is what I was expecting from this AP, especially since previous APs managed to do aspects of it quite well.
Doing it to the extent of a video game would have been difficult, but some aspects could have been worked in. Look at Sandru. There are at least a few points in the story where he gives information, helps you out, and gives extra interactions with an NPC. The whole of it takes up less than a paragraph of text, but help bring him into the story.
I'm not saying the AP is terrible or anything of the sort. Paizo knows their audience and product far better than I do. All I am saying is, from my perspective as a customer, I would have liked a bit more. Events created with the NPCs in mind, storylines that involve them, specific ways they could help out. While transferring six pages of background on NPCs who will likely live through one encounter to this purpose would be preferable, even small, low-word-count changes could have greatly helped. An example below.
I know I can make these sorts of changes myself. I will. But for an AP that puts such an emphasis on four NPCs, I wish the actual text remembered they existed. I don't buy that two page writeups, most of which are given over to state blocks and backstory, are enough to make them matter for a six volume AP. If I am creating the entire story as GM, we need to readjust what a roleplaying AP is. Kingmaker was not advertised as a roleplaying AP because of Mikmek and Lily Teskertin, even though they will likely be around your city and can develop stories throughout the campaign.
EDIT: The quote button sliced off the end of your post, so I didn't address specific points. I think you will still get the gist, though.
I think by this point I'll refrain myself to just making a post when something Mort says actually disagrees with my opinion, otherwise you can assume that he is my more articulate alter ego. :p
A+ on summarizing my concerns once again, Mort! :)
