WIN
Understand how there spells work and follow the rules of there spells.
AM UNDERSTANDING ALL SPELLS WITH GENIUS THINKING. AM CASTING SPELLS TO MAKE OWN RULES.
I've always been more of a Conan fan. As such, I think high level wizards should be able to do BIG magic - like casting an entire nation into darkness or casting curses which last for generations. People should be scared of what wizards can do and what they might do so that wizards don't have to actually do much of anything. But, most of their spells should be difficult to cast and pretty darn near impossible to cast in combat.
Right now, its far too easy for wizards to cast - especially in combat.
For some interesting large-level spells like that, you may find some interest in digging up the old 'The Book of Magecraft' from the 2E Birthright setting. Years since I put Cerilia down, I STILL make those kinds of spells and things (notably, the unit/domain spells) available to casters who want to plunk down several stacks of thousands of GP. I wouldn't suggest them in a handful of min/max 'optimizers', but with appropriate retooling you'll find a lot of good ideas there, especially for BBEG's (and for player rewards for successfully defeating the BBEG, naturally).
As for the OP itself: I think a high level wizard should be able to do -just about- anything...given sufficient time, money, expense, travel, sacrifice, and effort. I don't think he should be able to do them in 4 standard actions and a swift.
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'Got a list...
As a disclaimer, I don't subscribe to the school of thought that a powerful spellcaster should be a doddering old man capable of casting one massive, awesome spell per story.
A powerful mage should be able to...
- have magic attacks that aren't per diem
- employ telekinetic abilities to flick away annoying melee opponents
- kill with a glance (maybe eyes flash or something)
- fly without expending spells
- ignore expensive gems as spell components
- defuse enemy casters' spells in a battle of wills
- alter the moon's orbit to avoid a long eclipse
- accurately time travel (more than just a few rounds)
- hijack a castle and float away with it
- sever a divine caster's connection to their deity
- consume outsiders and take on their attributes
- sink an island
...among other things.
If you were a novelist writing a series of stories that involved such a character, how do you think his adventurers would tend to go? He couldn't have any villains that he could just kill as the reader would get quite bored reading "he glanced at the evil villain and the villain died", nor could he have trickster antagonists as the reader would get bored reading "the wizard went back in time before event X happened and made everything right again, the end".
I didn't say the caster should be able to do all of the above. Just a few things.
As for the novel character, just because he dominates most physical conflicts that drag him into action doesn't mean that his personal/professional life is perfect. He might have uncovered the abilities mentioned at the cost of a close friend/significant other, ostracism of his peers, attracting the attention of things unaffected by magical powers, angering deities that can act against him without fearing his reprisal, or even his sanity. Alternatively, he could be facing a mage/several mages of equal or greater power.
Combat does not have to be the only source of conflict.
I agree that combat does not have to be the only source of conflict. But look at the conflicts you've mentioned. They either a.) are all about non-combat stuff, b.) are conflicts in which he has no effective powers, or c.) are repetitive.
Do you think these are the kinds of adventures that the lion's share of players are going to want to exclusively have in the game?
You asked if I were a novelist writing a series of stories revolving around a powerful mage. My response was directed towards that.
As for a session involving a group of players that included a few characters with similar powers, all of the above-listed abilities would require several checks to pull off or carry a significant risk.
For example, time travelling itself would be easy. Time travelling with extra passengers could expose them to magical aging/reverse-aging, accidentally doubling the character (or worse, an opposite-character), or a character might even get lost in the space-time continuum.
Like all players who got an high level character he should bother about roleplay or shift to a mmorpg, do random pvp and farming for gear.
Learn to play (I'm not speaking just about rules) then bother about high levels.
Reading some fantasy book could help. Do you want create your own magic school? Stop aging? The love of someone that hate you?
The same post about fighter has become a joke.
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If you were a novelist writing a series of stories that involved such a character, how do you think his adventurers would tend to go? He couldn't have any villains that he could just kill as the reader would get quite bored reading "he glanced at the evil villain and the villain died", nor could he have trickster antagonists as the reader would get bored reading "the wizard went back in time before event X happened and made everything right again, the end".
'Got a list...
As a disclaimer, I don't subscribe to the school of thought that a powerful spellcaster should be a doddering old man capable of casting one massive, awesome spell per story.
A powerful mage should be able to...
- have magic attacks that aren't per diem
- employ telekinetic abilities to flick away annoying melee opponents
- kill with a glance (maybe eyes flash or something)
- fly without expending spells
- ignore expensive gems as spell components
- defuse enemy casters' spells in a battle of wills
- alter the moon's orbit to avoid a long eclipse
- accurately time travel (more than just a few rounds)
- hijack a castle and float away with it
- sever a divine caster's connection to their deity
- consume outsiders and take on their attributes
- sink an island
...among other things.
Well Raymond Feist's books Magician: Apprentice, Magician Master, Silver Thorn, and A Darkness at Sethanon and other books, has as one of the main protagonists an Arch Mage....Pug or Melamber was his name i think. There was also a wizard named Macros the Black.....Perhaps these books have a good example of a "high level" wizard in fantasy literature. I also think this fantasy series was influenced by D&D.
Learn to play (I'm not speaking just about rules) then bother about high levels.We could implement roleplaying requirements be met before allowing access to higher levels. Brilliant! I love it! Normally the thought of high levels bores me (I'm not a power person) but if you were required to complete cool quests to access them I'd be all over it.
It was just and advice :) . I would not do the hard work required to mantain a real group if then everyone does things I could do well in front of a monitor.
In fact, rules of roleplay say what you say: why give automatically access to all spell and feats? Go and search the ancient tome, the focus to empower your bloodline, an old warrior that can teach you a new feat.I totally agree with you.
The truth is that there's no difference about caster, not caster, high level and others. The difference is the way you interact with world and your options, but you have to play a "real" person, with motivations, goals, passions, fears...
Search for this authors.
David Eddings.
David Gemmel.
Pathrick Rothfuss.
Scott Linch.
Robin Hobb.
It's not just the protagonist that you have to observe, and this tread it's not about epic levels.
The protagonist is just one of the character you should observe. And what's a protagonist? Raistlin Majere is a protagonist or a villain?
For epic levels,
Belgarath, Belgarion, Beldin etc (Eddings)
Weel of time (Robert Jordan)
Feist
ancient epic (Eracle, etc)
Is there anything you'd EXCLUDE, or shall we just shorten it all that a powerful Wizard should be GOD?
'Got a list...
As a disclaimer, I don't subscribe to the school of thought that a powerful spellcaster should be a doddering old man capable of casting one massive, awesome spell per story.
A powerful mage should be able to...
- have magic attacks that aren't per diem
- employ telekinetic abilities to flick away annoying melee opponents
- kill with a glance (maybe eyes flash or something)
- fly without expending spells
- ignore expensive gems as spell components
- defuse enemy casters' spells in a battle of wills
- alter the moon's orbit to avoid a long eclipse
- accurately time travel (more than just a few rounds)
- hijack a castle and float away with it
- sever a divine caster's connection to their deity
- consume outsiders and take on their attributes
- sink an island
...among other things.
Lol seems that necromancer confused "high level game" with "it's time you need to stop playing" ;)
Or maybe, they should be able to do what rules state they are able to do.
I will say the same thing I said in the other thread:
Do not ask what high level casters or non-casters should be able to do. Ask what high level characters should be able to do.
I didn't say the caster should be able to do all of the above. Just a few things.
Sounds Like A Powerful Mage Would Be Able To Do Some Of The Above And Not Necessarily All. I Agree With Necromancer.
Lol seems that necromancer confused "high level game" with "it's time you need to stop playing" ;)Is there anything you'd EXCLUDE, or shall we just shorten it all that a powerful Wizard should be GOD?
'Got a list...
As a disclaimer, I don't subscribe to the school of thought that a powerful spellcaster should be a doddering old man capable of casting one massive, awesome spell per story.
A powerful mage should be able to...
- have magic attacks that aren't per diem
- employ telekinetic abilities to flick away annoying melee opponents
- kill with a glance (maybe eyes flash or something)
- fly without expending spells
- ignore expensive gems as spell components
- defuse enemy casters' spells in a battle of wills
- alter the moon's orbit to avoid a long eclipse
- accurately time travel (more than just a few rounds)
- hijack a castle and float away with it
- sever a divine caster's connection to their deity
- consume outsiders and take on their attributes
- sink an island
...among other things.
People are jumping on Necromancer a little much here. The suggestions are not unreasonable - assuming a cost involved and chances of failure.
An arcane blast that deals damage that is unlimited. Sound familiar.
An number of variations on this could be acceptable.
Wizards can now do this or far more annoying things like 'Maze'
At will Telekinesis is not insane assuming it has a DC not auto success.
Any number of creatures in the game can do this.
I don't even need to justify this one.
Short of the "Bring back the dead" spells at high levels money is not that big of a factor. Have them make a Super Focus That cost 100,000 gp that will sub for expensive components. etc. etc.
Counter spell or special counter spell rules as immediate actions.
This one is a problem "Gods Veto this one."
However is the PC is willing and able to do the math give you the new tide schedule the shift in the moon phases as it pertains to the seasons and such and all other effect that altering the orbit of the moon "including justifying that the new orbit is sustainable" what the heck go with it.
New campaign idea: Stupid powerful wizard accidentally caused moon to break away party needs to find a way to get it back.
NO!NO!NO! Time travel outside of limited causality is forbidden. This is DM territory only.
Make the cost high, but so what he has a flying castle. I want one too.
Not sure I understand the point of this one. However sounds like a way to get a God mad at you really fast.
Infernal pacts like this are made all the time. Watch out for the fine print.
Take the power by force if you can but remember. There WILL be hell to pay.
There are already spells for doing this and more.
With the proper DM and campaign I see no real problems with most of these. An experienced DM can handle just about anything a PC can do. Especially if the DM allowed it. Lots of these can produce campaign ideas for a DM to use, I love when my players have goals and plans that I can integrate into a campaign.
Snapshot
If there's a spell that can do it, casters can do it. If there's not... no.
Some... ehm, most of the listed things are more for Dragon Ball than PF.
Spell-casters should be able to do the same things they can do at present. It is flavorful and 'magical' when they can do these wondrous acts. As I have suggested in the 'What should high level non-spellcasters be able to do' thread, though, no single spell caster should be able to do everything or nearly everything. It should require major specialization and focus to be able to reach highest levels of magical power in that field. This would both be more flavorful than the current approach and it would be more manageable for the referee. It would also make it easier to balance spellcasters and non-spellcasters, yet the power of magic as a whole would be retained, even if no individual caster could master it all by 20th level.
Is there anything you'd EXCLUDE, or shall we just shorten it all that a powerful Wizard should be GOD?
I didn't intend for everything on the list to be interpreted as an auto-success. Nor did I mean the caster should gain access to half the list, much less the whole.