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He can't hurt anyone because he doesn't know where he is -- if he knew where he was he could detect himself since he would know where he was. Since he doesn't know where he is he can't act in relation to someone at another point in space
. The world can't respond to him since to respond would be to detect his action since he can't be detected he can't be responded to.
He can't pull his weapon out because he doesn't know where it is.
He can't hit another person because he doesn't know where his hand is.
If he knew his hand was near another person he would have detected his hand which he can't do.
So he can't do anything and the world can't respond to any action he does manage since responding or being affected by him would give away his location -- even in just a "he's not on the other side of the world" sense.
Basically he becomes anti-thematic to Schrodinger's cat.
Great, he may or mey not be hurting you. That is he may or may not if he actually was aware of his own existence.
Yo Dawg we heard you like not being detected, so we put non-detection on your detection so you can't detect you being not detected.
Schrodinger's cat indeed.
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Also, one of the coolest ninja tricks allows them to run through walls. I see no purpose in being level 20 and not having that ability. Especially if you end up fighting some smarmy wizard who throws up force wall. The look on his face would be priceless I'd go so far out of my way as to create a camera just for such occasions.
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wish may be the most powerful spell in the game TOZ but it seems hidden master is more powerful as a wish is still part of the any in the books description:"While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by ANY means".
I personally think wish SHOULD overpower it but the designers obviously disagree with me and as what they write is considered RAW they win in all RAW discussions.
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The ninja is not being detected by the wish. The ninja is being detected by the characters AFTER the Hidden Master ability is suppressed. Thus it is RAW legal. (Note: The caster need not detect the ninja to cast the spell, as it does not target the ninja, nor does the spell need to detect the ninja.)
Your mileage may vary as to the ability of Wish to suppress class abilities.
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The ninja is not being detected by the wish. The ninja is being detected by the characters AFTER the Hidden Master ability is suppressed. Thus it is RAW legal. (Note: The caster need not detect the ninja to cast the spell, as it does not target the ninja, nor does the spell need to detect the ninja.)
Your mileage may vary as to the ability of Wish to suppress class abilities.
Its an interesting idea but it sounds more like semantics to me. I as a DM would rule by the wording of the ability that wishing for the suppression of the ability is in essence being done to detect the ninja. If that is the case (i suppose it depends on the DM) then the cannot be detected by any means thing is still active.
These kinda questions are always dodgy in an incomplete universe such as dnd and pathfinder as we can't do experiments to find the answers. :) As (from memory) a god or goddess of magic is usually responsible for magic i would say that the intention of the magic especially in circumstances like this would matter.
but *shrugs* there is no way to know for certain i guess
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The OP is right. detection is not just being able to see them. It's about knowing of their existence as well. Thus people couldn't detect him because of the wounds he was giving because they would be violating how the mechanic works. The only thing I have to say about sneak attack can be countered is that guess what. Ninja's nearly always go first and are probably the ones getting the surprise round. The only means you have of defeating a ninja that has that feature would be relying on spells that don't require detection to kill him. However I'll also address that the OP is just flame baiting all of you into an argument about a poorly worded mechanic.
So the Ninja sits there for the entire duration because he doesn't know he exists? Brilliant!
Edit: Read the rest of the thread before posting, you duplicate fewer people that way, Matthew.
He can't hurt anyone because he doesn't know where he is -- if he knew where he was he could detect himself since he would know where he was. Since he doesn't know where he is he can't act in relation to someone at another point in space
. The world can't respond to him since to respond would be to detect his action since he can't be detected he can't be responded to.
He can't pull his weapon out because he doesn't know where it is.
He can't hit another person because he doesn't know where his hand is.
If he knew his hand was near another person he would have detected his hand which he can't do.
So he can't do anything and the world can't respond to any action he does manage since responding or being affected by him would give away his location -- even in just a "he's not on the other side of the world" sense.
Basically he becomes anti-thematic to Schrodinger's cat.
Totally valid interpretation of the ability as per RAW, though as hyperbolic as my own examples.
So, with the wording "cannot be detected by any means" in addition to no omission of themselves against the power of this ability, you can make the call that this is what it does and still follow RAW.
Additionally, you can also interpret the other extreme on the spectrum by stating since the ability makes it so that you cannot be detected by any means, the world around you conforms to accept your interaction with it, but makes it so that you are always undetectable.
Using your "Schrödinger's Cat" example, the ninja is simultaneously there and "not there" with everyone's senses, no matter how attuned or magically enhanced; they are unable to perceive the reality where he is "there", yet he is still present to affect things around him (as the ability does not restrict him from taking "actions", the only way you can affect reality in a game world), and affecting things renders him detectable, therefore his actions are also "undetectable" to keep within the RAW of the ability. This can get pretty silly.
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I believe that the ability is somewhere in between these two extremes, just for the record. Nor am I arguing that my hyperbolic reading should, in any way, be an endorsement or recommendation as to how to let this ability work in your game.
My interpretation is that the ability is supposed to make you immune to any extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural or plain spell that can pierce or circumvent invisibility (such as the aformentioned spells in the ability and others like glitterdust or faerie fire). It also acts as a nondetection spell without the option of the caster level check to overcome it. Finally, it simulates the old Darkstalker 3.5 feat insofar as requiring creatures to make Perception checks to pinpoint your location regardless of blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense.
I do not think that it erases your footprints (as this would be trackless step) or anything else that would reveal your location without explicitly seeing through your invisibility or detecting you through means made impossible through nondetection.
At least, I really hope that was the intent and not my, nor Mr. Spalding's, examples.
That'd be totally nuts.
The ninja is not being detected by the wish. The ninja is being detected by the characters AFTER the Hidden Master ability is suppressed. Thus it is RAW legal. (Note: The caster need not detect the ninja to cast the spell, as it does not target the ninja, nor does the spell need to detect the ninja.)
Your mileage may vary as to the ability of Wish to suppress class abilities.
Where does it say that you can do this with wish?
And really, that's just one idea for use of a Wish because it's a fun/cool use of it for this situation.
You could as well Wish to teleport a mile away or to be in your own Forcecage (you'd waive the save) or in a Prismatic Sphere or any number of other existing spell effects which look at Hidden Master and say, "That's a very nice trick, but I can easily survive that with one of the few dozen reality-bending spells I can cast today, and then I still have most of the rest of them to kill you with, plus one more to make you unresurrectable."
It's a nice ability, but it's so, so, so far away from being an "I Win!" button.
"Let me tell you how mad I am that my spell doesn't literally invalidate everything."
As for the "B-b-b-but cobwebs!" example, my professional ruling is that this only comes up when someone is making a bizarre example that would never happen in game, and thus doesn't count because this would never happen in game.
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"Let me tell you how mad I am that my spell doesn't literally invalidate everything."
As for the "B-b-b-but cobwebs!" example, my professional ruling is that this only comes up when someone is making a bizarre example that would never happen in game, and thus doesn't count because this would never happen in game.
You get paid for this?
You get paid for this?"Let me tell you how mad I am that my spell doesn't literally invalidate everything."
As for the "B-b-b-but cobwebs!" example, my professional ruling is that this only comes up when someone is making a bizarre example that would never happen in game, and thus doesn't count because this would never happen in game.
When you're as pro as I am at existing, everything is a professional opinion.
When you're as pro as I am at existing, everything is a professional opinion.You get paid for this?"Let me tell you how mad I am that my spell doesn't literally invalidate everything."
As for the "B-b-b-but cobwebs!" example, my professional ruling is that this only comes up when someone is making a bizarre example that would never happen in game, and thus doesn't count because this would never happen in game.
Pffft existing is easy. You ahve to be level 20 before you can not exist and exist simultaneously in meatspace.
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So. Let me see if I've gotten all the issues regarding this ability right. (I know some of this has been said; this is an attempt at a summary and review. :) )
For reference:
Hidden Master (Su): At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool. In addition, whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she can sacrifice additional damage dice to apply a penalty to one ability score of the target equal to the number of dice sacrificed for 1 minute. This penalty does not stack with itself and cannot reduce an ability score below 1.
1. Requires a standard action to activate.
2. Costs 3 ki points per use and lasts 20 rounds (caster level equals ninja level and ninja is obviously 20th level). Commentary: not a big limitation, but does require some resource management to preserve ki. Powerful in combat, but out of combat lasts 2 minutes, meaning the ninja can't tirelessly track someone invisibly for a whole day (unless they have a crapton of ki and use it only on this ability--which is possible, but requires planning/very specific build and circumstances).
3. It is a supernatural ability. Direct quote from the core rules: "Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells." So it cannot be dispelled, but it can be antimagicked (and since wish and miracle can duplicate spells and antimagic field is a spell, then they can dismiss this ability).
4. Creatures immune to precision damage are not affected by the sneak attack part. (What about creatures immune to ability damage?)
"... cannot be detected by any means."
RAW and as literally as possible, this means not only do detection and revelation magics not work, but neither do any means of sensory detection--any use of the Perception skill, Scent, Blindsense, Tremorsense, and similar abilities that do not even rely on sight cannot be used to see the ninja. This means basically people can only guess where the ninja is based on the ninja's own attacks and other actions.
If this does not seem to be what the developers intended, this needs to be addressed.
1. Glitterdust and Faerie Fire.
These spells are not mentioned in the ability description. They are not, technically, detection spells. Glitterdust outlines invisible creatures and inflicts a -40 Stealth penalty (with invisibility's +40 to Steatlh, this just makes the net penalty/bonus zero). So you know where they are, but it does not negate the invisible condition and the ninja still has concealment. Does this work?
Likewise, Faerie Fire does not negate invisibility either per RAW, simply its ability to provide concealment (in this case, opposite to glitterdust, the ninja still gets the Stealth bonus, however). If, RAW, this still works on the 20th level ninja, the 20th level ninja cannot sneak attack due to concealment, which does put a huge cramp in the usefulness of this ability. And it's a 1st level spell.
2. How does dust of appearance work with this ability?
"A single handful of this substance flung into the air coats objects within a 10-foot radius, making them visible even if they are invisible." This isn't a detection effect (the spell used to make it is glitterdust, not something like see invisible). So does this 1,800 GP magic item work on the 20th level ability Hidden Master or not?
Also an interesting note about dust of appearance--it negates dust of disappearance, which works a lot like Hidden Master, in fact (greater invisibility which can't be removed by see invisibility or invisibility purge, although in the dust's case, non-sight detection, like scent, can still be used to detect the creature. I point it out though because it's the one thing I can find that works similarly to the class ability. Something to ponder.
3. What about mundane things that usually require a GM call--you drop a huge curtain on an area, it at least reveals the ninja's location? Or does it? What about similar player ploys that will inevitably occur when someone demands incredulously, "What do you mean 'can't be detected'?"
4. Regarding the sneak attack part--does the ability damage apply only when the ninja has activated Hidden Master to become invisible, or anytime the ninja makes a sneak attack?
1. A lesser version of it can be recreated by dust of disappearance, costing 3,500 gp.
2. Let's look at some other capstones, think about how they compare (I'm not gonna say whether they're better or worse, just listing for consideration):
--- A 20th level barbarian just hurts. A lot.
--- A 20th level bard can attempt to instantly kill a single target within 30 feet. Limitations: requires a full round action, requires a Will save (target is staggered instead), doesn't affect anything immune to mind-affecting, requires visible and audible components, can't do it to the same target more than once per 24 hours, need to have rounds of bardic performance available.
--- 20th level clerics have no capstone per se, but some depending on domain have elemental immunities or domain abilities that are extremely powerful that level, in addition to being able to cast four 9th level spells, plus a domain spell.
--- A 20th level druids also have no capstone, but as a consolation prize, they can be a huge air elemental that can cast spells like elemental swarm, antipathy ("the specific kind of intelligent creature that will be unable to approach me shall be known as a 'ninja'"), and storm of vengeance.
--- A 20th level fighter deals hella damage with a weapon that autoconfirms crits that can't be disarmed from him.
--- 20th level monks are native outsiders with DR/chaotic. From previous levels, they're also immune to lots of things.
--- 20th level paladins also have DR, can insta-banish outsiders, and max heal. Smites and healing are of course limited by how often she can use those abilities.
--- 20th level rangers can track at full speed, and they can make a save-or-die attack against favored enemies, usable once per day per favored enemy type (which is awesome if you're fighting a lot of favored enemies and useless if you're in a scenario where they don't happen to show up, but hopefully that wouldn't be the case).
--- 20th level rogues can deal a sneak attack which can, in addition to normal damage, insta-slay, insta-sleep, or insta-paralyze, subject to a Fortitude save. Unlike the sneak attack penalties inflicted by the ninja's Hidden Master, which as written describe no limitations to how often they apply, the rogue's ability cannot affect a target more than once in 24 hours.
--- 20th level sorcerers depend on bloodline, but generally a slew of immunities and other special abilities or casting boosts--in addition to the ability to spam many high level spells. (An Aberrant Sorcerer is immune to sneak attack, so they can thumb their nose at the ninja.)
--- 20th level wizards don't have a capstone, but others have said they don't need one. What with all the big spells and all.
Not gonna go into archetypes or splat classes or I'd be here all day, and I've wall of texted enough. Anyway, should be enough to compare.
Anything else? I read the thread but I admit to skimming the last page or so so I might I have missed something.
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so this whole time while reading this thread, I'm thinking about this ninja... And he is not a bad guy in my mind... in the neutral area. He even feels for the heros trying to save the day. So, during his Hidden Master routine he is planting things on the little lost heros that can't find the ever so clever ninja... the question is this: does the bag of kittens that he planted on the dwarf show up instantly or does it stay invisible until the 2 minutes are up?
so this whole time while reading this thread, I'm thinking about this ninja... And he is not a bad guy in my mind... in the neutral area. He even feels for the heros trying to save the day. So, during his Hidden Master routine he is planting things on the little lost heros that can't find the ever so clever ninja... the question is this: does the bag of kittens that he planted on the dwarf show up instantly or does it stay invisible until the 2 minutes are up?
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).
ETA, also from the spell:
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible
The bag of kittens is only invisible for as long as the ninja attempts to conceal it on his person. Hope that helps. :)
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ETA, also from the spell:
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visibleThe bag of kittens is only invisible for as long as the ninja attempts to conceal it on his person. Hope that helps. :)
yep... now the hero dwarf is totally pissed at sneaky ninja for giving him a bag of kittens... cause who needs a bag of kittens on such a huge level quest where a 20th lvl ninja shows up to thwart your daily plans of getting somewhere doing something heroic
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yep... now the hero dwarf is totally pissed at sneaky ninja for giving him a bag of kittens... cause who needs a bag of kittens on such a huge level quest where a 20th lvl ninja shows up to thwart your daily plans of getting somewhere doing something heroic
ETA, also from the spell:
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visibleThe bag of kittens is only invisible for as long as the ninja attempts to conceal it on his person. Hope that helps. :)
Unfortunatly one of the kittens is a ninja, so the cycle continues. THUNDERCATS HOOOOO!
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible
So could you* detect bodily emission from a ninja?
Gas, skin particles, sweat, more gas.
The way OP has described it as a GM I'd be a total a&~~#%! to use this on players at any level and they would maul me alive. Yes, maul. I GM for kodiaks. It makes things more exciting.
Bears are known for being awesome at everything they do. Fact.
By raw you can not detect the ninja but you can locate them. Good luck with that but it is possible. All the part that says you can not detect the ninja is saying is that there is no way you can remove their total concealment for those 20 rounds. You can still locate them and attack the location applying a 50% miss chance if you succeed in perception check against the ninja's stealth with +20 or +40 depending on if they are moving. The DC could be over 100 for a ninja that is not moving though.
I would allow the Wish to automatically target the ninja with a dispel magic, but not automatically turn it off since that would set a precedent for automatically turning other things off.And this is a problem why? We're talking about Wish, it's supposed to be the most powerful spell, right? And cost a bundle to use as well.
What other things are you concerned about?
That does not mean it should just turn things off at will. 25000 is not enough to pay to auto turn an ability off.
PS:The 25000 gp may be the wrong price.
You seem to be concerned about the balance of it.
With respect, I disagree. Limited wish will bestow a whopping -7 penalty to a saving throw automatically. Turning off an ongoing ability in the short term with ACTUAL wish is NOT more powerful than that.
That depends on the ability. I am more concerned with a blank check to turn abilities off at will since I have no way to measure how they will affect the game until it comes up.