I would probably stay away from two-weapon fighting, especially if your Dex is only 14. I'd rather be a monk/sorcerer/dragon disciple if I really had my heart set on TWF with no armor.
I wouldn't suggest taking 3 levels or sorcerer when either 2 or 4 would do; you're losing a point of BAB for little gain. So in your situation (where you need to rely on magic for defense because you don't want to wear armor) I'd probably go with something like Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 4, using a two-handed tripping weapon (like a scythe or a halberd).
I agree with hogarth. TWF is too feat heavy to mix with a melee/magic hybrid. THF is feasible, though. Greatswords are great! Or since you might still be a bit squishy from the casting levels, you could use a polearm with reach to keep the enemies at bay. Just beware of close quarters (or free action drop it and free action your claws).
I would also add that counting on Mage Armor as armor might not be reliable enough. You said you don't get too much gold, but could you at least afford a +1 or +2 magical mithral chain shirt? You'd have a 10% chance of spell failure, but you could just ignore that or take Arcane Armor Training to negate it (with a swift action when you're casting). Just cast Shield (also a +4 bonus) on top of that, as well as the NA bonus from being draconic. I could help more with this if I knew exactly how much gold you start with.
Also, half-orc has nice benefits, but if you want to boost Intimidate, half-elf might be better because of their free Skill Focus feat. They also get a +2 Perception bonus.
It's kind of a shame you can't at least use things from the APG. There are Intimidate related feats that could be useful to you. Also, there's a reach polearm that is 1d12 like the greataxe. I've been using the things I suggested with my own Dragon Disciple build, and it's been pretty sweet so far.
I would also add that counting on Mage Armor as armor might not be reliable enough.
I agree that Mage Armor is a bit lackluster by itself, but in my experience Mirror Image works amazingly well. My monk/sorcerer/dragon disciple uses it all the time (from a wand); Mage Armor is just a backup.
Finally I wanna say a few things:1.) It seems to me that more attacks with TWF vs. fewer attacks with Greataxe make similar dmg. I cannot see any big difference. So maybe the key question is: Does Trip with TWF makes sense or is TWF be made for Trip? :-)
2.) If I would pass Trip, which other feats may be possible, that would increase my character's dmg?
3.) The next question is, should I take a further lvl Drg because the saves increase are nice (+1 fort, ref, will) and a further feat with blindsense is not bad, but... the "danger" is to want the +2 CON the lvl above too and Dragon Form (1/day) is very nice too (max dmg boost)! ;-)
4.) At (for me) "highest" lvl (that means up to lvl 16) I think the EK is the best prestige class for me. The only question is, at which lvl should I take the first lvl.
1) The damage may not be a huge difference, but power attacking with THF seems more reliable than TWF in my experience. Trip works best with weapons that have the trip property. You get to add all the extra weapon bonuses to your CMB that way. It doesn't matter what your fighting style is when you're tripping as long as it's with a trip weapon to get the bonuses.
2) The only way to increase damage is Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, or any of the feats that cause bleeding damage (assuming the enemy can bleed at all). There is also the Two-Handed Fighter archetype, or just straight up magical bonuses. There might be other ways, but I don't have enough knowledge past my own suggestions.
3) I have this problem, too. I want all of the fun DD stuff, but there are other things that are important by advancing your other classes. I limited myself to the first four levels at first. To me, the Str +4 and NA +2 bonuses are enough at that point. If you have the levels later on to do it, advance DD when it's convenient to do so in order to get the Con +2 or whatever else you might want from it. Toughness will help you out until you reach that point if HP is the issue.
4) People have suggested EK to me as well for my DD build. The problem for me with that is I'm already mixing so many classes together, I'd rather not add a fourth class. Personally, I sacrificed spellcasting over martial proficiency. Instead of going the EK route, I just chose more Fighter levels to increase my bab progression (and get more combat bonus feats instead of spells).
If you prefer spells over melee, it's just a matter of when you want to improve your spellcasting. Wait it out and see when it's best for you to take EK levels. Also, I really can't recommend enough for you to choose a polearm with reach (and trip). I think the glaive might be your best friend here (or the guisarme if you decide to focus on tripping).
Hi there!
First of all I wanna tell you: I know there are some existing threads and I have read most of them. But partly I have other wishes and partly I cannot realize some things like others do, because I do not have so much gold like (it seems) many others and I get only 20 BP.
My goal is to have a nice character with focus on combat, but have some skill points for intimidate, knowledge arcane, perception and spellcraft too. Furthermore I am looking for a good ratio (!) between BAB and Spells per Day.
We start with lvl 9 and I think we will play until lvl 15-16. BTW I wanna play a half-orc. :) Because nice race and nice features (e.g. great axe, orc double axe, +2 intimidate)
I know there a lots of possibilities, that's why I wanna introduce you some options and I am looking forward to hear your opinion to them (i.e. I have read that a paladin is a good combo for example, but I don't wanna play a paladin :)). :-)
Attributes (Character Advancement and Str Boost incl.): Str 20, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14. And I wanna use Mage Armor (so no other armor).
I had to ditch this character, but I loved the concept.
Edit: Some things are not up to date on the character anymore. Arcane Armor Training should be removed (no reason to use anything but a Haramaki anymore), Half-Elf is a viable race selection, etc. I used a Glaive on the character, which meant that the eventual goal was Enlarge, FBA from 20 ft away. Note that FBA and Hover are both Bestiary feats and may not be available as they are GM permission only, typically. You do have the prerequisites, however.
Many thanks to all of you for this quick and great answers. I was really impressed!!!
To sum up all of your replies just let me say a few things:
- Yes, half-elf and greatsword are the better choices. Not only because of skill focus but perception and low-light vision too.
- I am going to create Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 4 now.
- Trip weapons are a perfect choice too!
- Yes, it's a pitty that APG is not allowed.
- Mithral Chain Shirt +1 would be affordable, but 10 % Arcane Failure or to spend a feat for +1 AC? Think that does not make sense. For the feat I can choose Dodge for example, gives me +1 AC too. :-) Think the long duration of Mage Armor makes this spell very comfortable and the second reason is: I wanna as most as possible of the bonus spells, so they're not wasted. :)Greetz,
Martin
A +1 mithral chain shirt is not the same as +1 AC from the Dodge feat, therefore is not comparable at all. Save that feat slot for something better. You would be getting +5 AC from the shirt, and then at most another +6 on top of that from your Dex mod (depending on how much Dex you have). I doubt your Dex mod would ever be that high, but that's not really the point. It also weighs half as much and wouldn't give you any kind of armor check penalty.
Right now (5th level), my Dex mod is +2, so a +1 mithral chain shirt would give me a +7 to my AC. Cast Shield instead of Mage Armor, and this turns into a +11 to my AC. The Dodge feat would make this a +12 to AC if you really wanted it. And don't forget about the NA bonus from being all dragony. Sorcerers need all the AC they can get, especially if you want to venture into the frontline of battle with a greatsword/greataxe/whatever. I think this is worth the 10% arcane spell failure risk, or the Arcane Armor Training feat to negate it.
Wanting to not waste a spell you learned for free anyway is not a reasonable enough excuse to go completely unarmored, especially since you have a Fighter level giving you armor proficiency. Do you have a Monk or some other class in your party who can't wear armor, or risk losing class abilities? Use it on them instead. They will love you for it! Did your Fighter get woken up in the middle of the night to fight and has no time to don his armor? Mage Armor works here for him, too. There are plenty of opportunities to cast this spell. You just have to look for them. =)
I think there's a huge inherent flaw with playing a DD/melee character, namely that you lack the armor to stand up at melee and you have to try to cast through concentration checks all the time. This means that you're either going to be standing back and blasting (in which case you should have been a pure sorcerer) or at the front fighting (in which case you should have been a pure barbarian).
The best build I've been able to put together is a Bard(ArcaneDuelist)/DD that focuses on missile damage. You can use songs to buff and keep out of combat with your missile focus and you can cast spells. The buffs from arcane strike help to offset your BAB penalty, plus go really great with missile damage. I'd only take 4 levels of DD, personally, just enough to get +4 (!!) strength, some extra armor and breath weapon.
I think there's a huge inherent flaw with playing a DD/melee character, namely that you lack the armor to stand up at melee and you have to try to cast through concentration checks all the time. This means that you're either going to be standing back and blasting (in which case you should have been a pure sorcerer) or at the front fighting (in which case you should have been a pure barbarian).
My experience has been different; I've found it only takes one good buff spell like Mirror Image to make up for the lower AC. So I spend the first round casting a spell (out of melee) and then go to it. Works for me, and I enjoy it more than a pure barbarian because of the out-of-combat stuff I can do (with scrolls or wands, if necessary).
I think there's a huge inherent flaw with playing a DD/melee character, namely that you lack the armor to stand up at melee and you have to try to cast through concentration checks all the time. This means that you're either going to be standing back and blasting (in which case you should have been a pure sorcerer) or at the front fighting (in which case you should have been a pure barbarian).
The best build I've been able to put together is a Bard(ArcaneDuelist)/DD that focuses on missile damage. You can use songs to buff and keep out of combat with your missile focus and you can cast spells. The buffs from arcane strike help to offset your BAB penalty, plus go really great with missile damage. I'd only take 4 levels of DD, personally, just enough to get +4 (!!) strength, some extra armor and breath weapon.
My experience has also been different. I use a reach weapon to keep my distance, so no combat casting needed there. I also have Arcane Strike for extra damage, or focus on missiles if I can't reach a target with melee. I can also buff or debuff if need be. It's very limited, but I can still do it. I just cast Shield and I'm good to go. I still take my fair share of hits, but I always survive. I'm also more versatile than most of the people in my party. If I had cure wands/spells, I'd be even more useful (bard wins here).
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Here's my idea:
Starting stats, 20pt buy:
STR 18 (16+2 racial)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10
Here's the level progression. You start with fighter.
L1 - Take whatever pair of feats you want. Maybe consider Dodge and Toughness.
L2 - Same deal. Feel free to have taken an archetype to replace Bravery if you want.
L3 - Just keep building for killing or whatever else you want to do.
L4 - The important thing here is that you put your fresh stat point into CHA, taking it to 11. And that's where it stops.
L5 - By this time, make sure you've put a rank into Linguistics (to learn Draconic) and some into Knowledge (Arcana).
L6 - Take a level of sorcerer. Make sure you know magic missile. Finish off your 5 ranks of Kn(Arc). You now qualify for DD.
L7 - First level of DD. Yay!
L8 - DD bumps your STR to 20, and you get another stat bump for your level. I suggest DEX, so that at L12 you get your DEX up to 16 for more AC. Alternatively, start making your STR or CON obscene. You also get a bloodline feat.
L9 - DD gets you a breath weapon, and more importantly, gets you to CL3 for your sorcerer spells. This qualifies you for Arcane Armor Training. Take it.
At this point you've got 5 of your HD as d10s, 1 as a d6, and 3 as d12s. If you go max at first and average for the rest, then with CONmod you've got 77HP if I did my math right. If you took Toughness, you'll instead be at 86. And in 3 levels, you'll get another +2 CON and gain 12 more HP (plus, of course, 3 levels' worth of d12 hit dice).
Now, for gear. Mostly, it's whatever you want. Except you want a Mithral Breastplate (shouldn't be hard to afford at level 9). This means that, if you spend a swift action to activate your latest feat, you only have a 5% spell failure chance (make sure any shield you might have is also mithral). That's equivalent to rolling a 1 on a d20, and you otherwise deal 2d4+2 damage to something.
Why only 11 CHA? Because all you want to cast is magic missile. It doesn't allow a save, so you don't have to worry about the low DC from your CHA. Remember that you can use higher-level spell slots to cast lower-level spells, so as you level up you'll just be casting more and more magic missiles each day. Basically, they replace having to carry around a bow. Meanwhile, you're gaining stat bumps and natural armor that would be wasted on a heavy caster.
So by 10th level, without any other gear besides the mithral breastplate (and without enchanting it), you'll have 22 STR, AC 21, nearly 100 HP, a breath weapon, energy resistance, and 9 magic missiles per day.
And it just keeps getting better. :D
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I think there's a huge inherent flaw with playing a DD/melee character, namely that you lack the armor to stand up at melee and you have to try to cast through concentration checks all the time.
I disagree. See the build in my spoiler above. With only one feat and one specific piece of gear (with all the rest, you have free reign), you can make a deadly melee DD who casts magic missile several times per day in case he can't reach someone.
Point taken about the +1 to AC, but you don't have to waste a spell slot and an action on +1 mithral armor and it never goes away unless you take it off, comfort considered or not. You aren't the one wearing the armor, your character is (and it can be magically enhance later on to +2, +3,etc.). Also, I was talking about AC, not HP, so I'm not really sure where mentioning that is coming from. The Fighter you mentioned probably has an AC anywhere from 4-8 points higher than you anyway without wasting any actions, so whose HP will last longer in that case? At any rate, we can just agree to disagree since we have different play styles. I'm here to offer you suggestions, not force my opinion on you.
Enemies moving adjacent to you is just a risk you have to take with using reach weapons. Don't want to deal with it? Don't use a reach weapon. If you need to cast spells or attack, take a 5' step if you can, then do your action. If you can't, remember that you're a Draconic Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. Drop your weapon as a free action, grow claws and bite attack as another free action, and then go to town with claw/claw/bite attacks!
If you are okay with the spell list, coming in of of bard may be a better balance for you. Bard has good buff and control spells, and can balance attacking, armor and casting. Magician archetype can nab you a low level spell, and is good for casting. But it all will come down to spell choice.
Have you considered the Cavalier?
The cavalier is another martial class that does well with a high CHArisma. Some of the order abilities can work well (Dazzling Display for Cockatrice, or CHA bonus vs. fear for allies from the Lion).
First of all, I don't wanna play a barbarian oder a bard. ;) Cavalier.. äh... we can talk about every class, of course, but that's why I fokus this thread on warri, ranger, DD and at the end EK. That we do not discuss every possible class. ^^
Well, I have to decide between taking a Mithral Chain Shirt (without boni) or Bracers of Armor +1. I'll take the Bracers. If I have more gold oneday I can rethink. :-)
The HP is coming from... you said, I am not a Warri, but I will be infight next to a Warri and so I have to push other things to keep with a Warri. If you want I can look for the quote. :) That counts for every further magical boni too. At the moment that point is far away in the future.
As I told more than one time I will not lose any action because I cast Mage Armor long before a combat starts (our talk goes to spin round).
Thank you for your suggestions. ;) The next point is, you said I need not to wear the armor. Only my character have to. For me Pathfinder is a Roleplaying Game and that means I do not want my character to do things that I would not like to do. ;)
To the other point, I just was interesting in our opinion concering enemies that moves near to you. Because you said that very easily... you keep the enemies on reach... it is not as easy as it sounds. ^^ That's all want I want to say.
Why should I drop my weapon to use claws and bite attack? The weapon makes much more dmg. ;)
Is Ultimate Combat an option in your game? If so, a Haramaki is a far superior choice over the Bracers of Armor as it has 0% spell failure, +1 AC, and costs a mere 3 gold. It's basically the same thing as Bracers of Armor...except cheap and cheaper to upgrade.
My advice is to stay pure sorcerer, since the dragon disciple was clearly done for sorcerers, if you want to dual weapon gish, guess what, you can do it as a sorcerer, since you gain dragon claws, which gain elemental energy later on, when you acquire dragon disciple levels you gain a bite attack, whit extra elemental damage by the side too, the only downside is that its only 3+cha rounds per day, but you are not pure melee anyways, so no big loss there, as you can alternate between attacking and casting spells.
I once did a dragon disciple, I had so many options available it was crazy! I even had more str than the fighter haha! (30 if I recall).
Also, try to get a weapon with the spell storing ability, for some extra "oomph!"
Also, you should consider only getting 8 levels of dragon disciple, since the last 2 don't offer that much (plus if you put the rest in to sorcerer you can eventually cast 9th level spells)
OT: Does anyone know why I could not edit my last post? It was only 1 hour 24 minutes ago that I posted it. :(
The editing window is 1 hour exactly.
I would continue with a combination of either (a) three or four more levels of dragon disciple, (b) some levels of eldritch knight, or (c) more levels of fighter.
Why would want to attack with claws/bite and not a weapon? Because when your bloodline is 7th level, you get three attacks for 1d6 at your highest base attack bonus versus one attack and one iterative attack for whatever your weapon is (which if it's a greatsword, then nevermind what I say). I'm not saying it's better, but it could be more reliable, especially in a pinch.
I'm not pooping on your decisions, just offering alternatives. You don't have to use them, or shoot them down the way you are. They work for me just fine, but maybe not for you. Different strokes for different folks. *shrugs*
Do you get bloodline spells from Dragon disciple?
Actualy relevent to me as Im playing a sorc 4/Fighter 1 thats going into disciple next level.
This thread inspired me to look into making a natural attack themed barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple. I can lay out some serious pain but my armor class is trash.
Assuming primary natural attacks all go off on your highest base attack bonus at no penalty, at level 3, when I'm buffed (enlarged and enraged), I'll be doing 4 natural attacks (gore, claw, claw, bite) at +8 a pop. If I hit with all my attacks on a full-attack + power attack, I'll be doing damage somewhere in the ballpark of 5d6+60.
Yes, you get bloodline spell from DD, in my case 8 (Sorc4 + DD4). Blindsense seems to be pretty cool: This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature. That should makes Blind-Fight senseless, right?
No, blindsense doesn't eliminate concealment; you were reading the description of blindsight. Blindsense allows you to pinpoint invisible/concealed creatures, but you still have the normal miss chance (that Blind-Fight would help you with).
Although I will lose one BAB at DD 5, I will take at least one further level DD.
I think Dragon Disciple 7 is a good break point, personally (+1 Fort save, +1 Will save, +1 BAB, +1 natural armor).
If you are going to be focusing on combat and only wanted the minimum spellcasting, then what if you went summoner to qualify for dragon disciple instead of bard or sorcerer? You'd be able to cast in armor, get a great buffing spell list, and have a decent combatant with you at low levels or summon monster I a few times a day.
Half-Orc Summoner 1/Barbarian 4/Dragon Disciple 8/Eldritch Knight 7
+17 BAB and casting as a 13th level summoner (5th level spells).
I imagine you'd likely fight alongside your eidolon at early levels but its usefulness will drop off considerably by level 3 or so. At least if he dies he'll just come back to you the next day like some abused spouse.
Hi there!
First of all I wanna tell you: I know there are some existing threads and I have read most of them. But partly I have other wishes and partly I cannot realize some things like others do, because I do not have so much gold like (it seems) many others and I get only 20 BP.
My goal is to have a nice character with focus on combat, but have some skill points for intimidate, knowledge arcane, perception and spellcraft too. Furthermore I am looking for a good ratio (!) between BAB and Spells per Day.
Well I played a DD in 3.x. He was a Barbarian. I went...
5 Barb/1 Sorc/10 DD/4 something... I was a Frenzied Berserker 4 but you could also do Rage Mage if your DM doesnt mind updating it to Pathfinder. Use Rage Prophet as a blueprint for conversion.
That would give you decent BAB, CL, and a smattering of Barbarian abilities.
Edit: NM... didn't see your second post about no barbarian.