
Elthbert |
I was looking at the Hell knight/ Paladin thread and realizing how many orders of Hellknights there were, and it hit me.Thats a lot of Hellknights, and they are a tiny fraction of the guys with significant levels, that is not to mention the number of people without significant levels who are still PC classes....
So exactly how many people are in the world to accomidate all of these people? How are they supporting such a huge number of non productive persons?

Elthbert |
Adding up the numbers given for the Notable Settlements on pg 54 of the Inner Sea Guide I got 285,415. This is only the population for those listings,I am sure more reside in Absolam, and possibly in the remnates of past exspanses to the empire like Sargava for example.
Thank you.
How many more, Millions more?

Elthbert |
My only real pet peeve to Golarion is how low the population is. For settlements I add another zero at the end. Other wise you have a world's population that has less people then my province.
I don't mind a low pop butthere seem to be a lot of military orders, and other similar organizations for such tiny pop

HappyDaze |
Adding up the numbers given for the Notable Settlements on pg 54 of the Inner Sea Guide I got 285,415. This is only the population for those listings,I am sure more reside in Absolam, and possibly in the remnates of past exspanses to the empire like Sargava for example.
Without looking, I know that Absoalm alone has more pop than 285,415.

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In middle ages and renaissance Europe the ratio between city population and rural population was around 1:9,
So a city population of 285.000 mean a rural population of 2.650.000.
The problem with most published setting is that the cities are based on medieval North Europe cities even in what are described as populous countries.
Italy alone in the XIV century had more than 10 cities with more than 100.000 habitants, in Golarion very few nations have 2 cities with that kind of population. Note: before the Black Death. Afther that population was half that number.
If we discount the problem of magic probably one of the big early renaissance or late middle age states could reconstruct the Taldan empire with ease by the size of its armies alone.

Mirona |
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Here the population of every region of Golarion (Taken only from the notable settlements has seen in the Inner Sea World Guide):
Absalom : 320 450
Andoran : 190 453
Belken : 50550
Brevoy : 90298
Cheliax : 367 515
Darkland : 234 533
Druma : 44250
Five Kings : 88 861
Galt : 88 999
Geb : 170 780
Irrisen : 56 490
Isger : 23 427
Jalmeray : 25 380
Katapesh : 239 294
Kyonin : 74 310
Lastwall : 25 515
Land L.K. : 131 090
Mammoth L. : 23 600
Mana Wastes : 65 800
Mediogalti : 20 920
Mendev : 116 660
Molthune : 65 740
Mwangi : 112 201
Nex : 93 610
Nidal : 57 082
Nirmathas : 23 392
Numeria : 111 448
Osirion : 258 239
Qadira : 268 780
Rahadoum : 124 090
Razmiran : 28 250
River Kind. : 107 600
Sargava : 26 020
Shackles : 88 720
Sodden Lands: 3 640
Steaming Sea: 8 420
Taldor : 228 455
Thuvia : 106 620
Ustalav : 75 979
Varisia : 91 189
Worldwound : None
Total : 4 328 650
With the 1:9 ratio : 8 224 435

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Total : 4 328 650
With the 1:9 ratio : 8 224 435
Thanks for the work, but I think you have lost a 3 before the last number and it is 38 millions, not 8, and a total population of about 42 millions people.
For comparison:
At the end of the Middle Ages, France was the most populous region in Europe—having overtaken Spain and Italy by 1340.[2] In the 14th century, before the arrival of the Black Death, the total population of the area covered by modern day France has been estimated at around 17 million. Paris, the largest city in Europe, had over 200,000 inhabitants in the 13th century. The Black Death killed an estimated one-third of the population from its appearance in 1348. The concurrent Hundred Years' War slowed recovery. It would be the mid-16th century before the population recovered to mid-fourteenth century levels.
The population of England, around 1 million in 1086, is estimated to have grown to somewhere between 5 and 7 million. France in 1328 (which was geographically smaller than France is today) is believed to have supported 18 to 20 million people, a number not reached again until the early modern period. The region of Tuscany had 2 million people in 1300, which it would not reach again until 1850. Overall, the population of Europe is believed to have reached a peak of 70 to 100 million.
So the Inner sea region population is comparable to that of Europe after the black Death. Better than I thought. Naturally it all depend on how wast the inner sea region is.
Checking the map I get 2.520 miles on the est-ovest axis and 3.250 on the north-sout axis. 8.190.000 square miles. Europe is 3.930.000 square miles.
So the Inner sea region has 1/4 the density of European population at the height of the middle ages and half of de density after the Black Death.
Not so bad.
And 1328 France would have a reasonable bit to field an army large enough to conquest most or all of the ancient Taldan empire territory.

Mirona |
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Klangark wrote:
Total : 4 328 650
With the 1:9 ratio : 8 224 435Thanks for the work, but I think you have lost a 3 before the last number and it is 38 millions, not 8, and a total population of about 42 millions people.
Sorry, I lost a 3. That's right : 38 millions.
I only took the notable settlement. The population of Belken,Druma, The Mwangi Expense and Varissia are in majority nomadic.
So, we change the black Death, for Aroden's Death.

Charles Evans 25 |
I remember a thread where someone tried to do some work on this topic a year or two ago, based on the information then available in the First Edition Campaign Setting.
The thread wandered on for a few pages, then the poster carrying out the analysis left off posting on the boards completely. (I think he may have had some trouble on other threads.)
Anyway, for anyone with the time (and interest) in reading that previous thread, it can currently be found here: *link*
Okay, and please carry on your discussions here... :)

Lilivati |

Keep in mind that population density cannot possibly be as high as in the real-world equivalents. This is a world where horrific monsters are everywhere, and keeping civilization going is a much bigger struggle than on Earth.
Which also neatly explains the scale of the militant orders.
I think the increased predation is probably balanced by it being a high-fantasy setting with magical healing (relatively minor injuries and illnesses would be a non-issue in many places, but a serious issue in real world settings in similar time periods), at least in terms of overall population.

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The big question is if magic is routinely used to increase food production or not.
During the middle ages you had a 1 to 2 ratio between planted seeds and harvested seeds. today it is 1 to 30.
If magic increase food production people will tend to congregate in cities that are better protected and safer, and total population numbers are probably lower.
If the production is more like that of the middle ages there are lots of rural communities and the population outside te cities is higher.
Keeping the monster population problem in mind I would expect a large number of walled, middle sized towns. Something that can mobilize a serious army when needed and had a standing garrison, so that they can aggressively patrol the nearby territory.
Instead the number of cities with that kind of characteristics seem relatively small.

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In explaining the thousands of years the timeline seems to drag on, I have found it useful to assume that the level of violence between human-centric settlements and monstrous races / beasts, combined with the occasional use of dread magics, has produced population crashes that dwarf the Black Death every few centuries or so. The timeline even suggests a few actual plagues with notable impact.
In some regions, such as Varisia and the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, it also helps explain the relative degree of cultural stagnation across those thousands of years. Constant war against giants or fey things makes for a truly grim outlook. But imagine if the Shoanti or Ulfen weren't there: giants, spreading all across Avistan. Gods help us all.
Curse of the Crimson Throne's second episode neatly illustrated the limitations of magical medical response to even conventional pestilence. Magical resources are limited. The presence of temples with devout and competent acolytes and/or mage towers helps elevate population growth, but the rewards for evil cults to actively predate on populations in human-centric settlements cannot be discounted either.
I would say that the population figures above feel ... quite good actually. The number of kingdoms plowed under the dirt by large, history-spanning empires like Taldor and Cheliax -- not to mention the number of times that the borders of each have expanded and contracted violently -- should reach into the hundreds by 4711 AR.

Son of the Veterinarian |

Here's a chart showing real-world population totals and percentages by region throughout history.
I have to imagine some of it is guesstimates, but it seems to jibe with other charts I found. I'm posting this one specifically because it's the most legible I've found.

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Here's a chart showing real-world population totals and percentages by region throughout history.
I have to imagine some of it is guesstimates, but it seems to jibe with other charts I found. I'm posting this one specifically because it's the most legible I've found.
Looking at those numbers, they seem at least in some areas seemed way off. I checked against areas I knew. For example, Mexico circa 1500 had a population around 20 million (average count, with some very convervative counts going down as low as 5M). This suggests there were less than 4 million total in the Americas which dropped 50% by 1600. IRL, it was around 93% (introduced disease mostly, imagine wave afte wave of different black deaths in the form of measles, smallpox, etc). Yet he has a rising population in the 1500's worldwide.
Interestingly, we could argue about who is right, but it shows the controversies that come into estimating historical populations.

HappyDaze |
Ya for some reason I was thinking population of Cheliax when I posted originally, I thought hellknights were only a Cheliax ranking.
They are certainly most common in the territories aligned with Cheliax - which includes Nidal, Isger, southern Varisia (around Korvosa), and possibly Sargava.

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Son of the Veterinarian wrote:Here's a chart showing real-world population totals and percentages by region throughout history.
I have to imagine some of it is guesstimates, but it seems to jibe with other charts I found. I'm posting this one specifically because it's the most legible I've found.
Looking at those numbers, they seem at least in some areas seemed way off. I checked against areas I knew. For example, Mexico circa 1500 had a population around 20 million (average count, with some very convervative counts going down as low as 5M). This suggests there were less than 4 million total in the Americas which dropped 50% by 1600. IRL, it was around 93% (introduced disease mostly, imagine wave afte wave of different black deaths in the form of measles, smallpox, etc). Yet he has a rising population in the 1500's worldwide.
Interestingly, we could argue about who is right, but it shows the controversies that come into estimating historical populations.
1500, "other" (mostly the Americas, has 4% of 425 millions people. So approximately 17 millions.
1600, 2% of 545, so less than 11 millions.It seem accurate with the data we have.
It is interesting to notice that around AD 0, Rome, with a population of approximately 1 million people, housed approximately 1/30 of all the European population (and 0.588% of the world population). "All roads lead to Rome" indeed. It would be the equivalent of a modern day city with 35 millions inhabitants.

Elthbert |
Diego Rossi wrote:Klangark wrote:
Total : 4 328 650
With the 1:9 ratio : 8 224 435Thanks for the work, but I think you have lost a 3 before the last number and it is 38 millions, not 8, and a total population of about 42 millions people.
Sorry, I lost a 3. That's right : 38 millions.
I only took the notable settlement. The population of Belken,Druma, The Mwangi Expense and Varissia are in majority nomadic.
So, we change the black Death, for Aroden's Death.
So 38.2 million This just doesn't seem high enough to account for all various non governmental organizations and such.
there are multiple orders of Hellknights, there is the Pathfinder society, there is the order of the eagle, etc, etc. Either these organizations are tiny, or a hugely disproportionate number of people are members of them.
I mean if there are a thousand members of the pathfinder society, then 1 out of every 3800 people is a member, 1000, Hellknights same thing,
I mean if one out of every 3800 people qualifys to be a HEllknight that is a pretty significant portion of the population. This doesn't include regular old knights, or soldiers, or anything else. Doesn't this seem like an odd make up of a world.... who farms, makes furniture, roofs houses, fishes, etc.

Elthbert |
I truly wish that type of demographic information was built into the setting from the get-go.
Every country should have a total population number in the main campaign guide, at the very least.
I agree, demographics is a weakpoint in many campaigns, and it interfers with the verisimilitude of the world.

Son of the Veterinarian |

Arnwyn wrote:I agree, demographics is a weakpoint in many campaigns, and it interfers with the verisimilitude of the world.I truly wish that type of demographic information was built into the setting from the get-go.
Every country should have a total population number in the main campaign guide, at the very least.
Being specific can be a bad thing too.
This is one of those things where the answer is, "as many as your GM needs."

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Klangark wrote:Diego Rossi wrote:Klangark wrote:
Total : 4 328 650
With the 1:9 ratio : 8 224 435Thanks for the work, but I think you have lost a 3 before the last number and it is 38 millions, not 8, and a total population of about 42 millions people.
Sorry, I lost a 3. That's right : 38 millions.
I only took the notable settlement. The population of Belken,Druma, The Mwangi Expense and Varissia are in majority nomadic.
So, we change the black Death, for Aroden's Death.
So 38.2 million This just doesn't seem high enough to account for all various non governmental organizations and such.
there are multiple orders of Hellknights, there is the Pathfinder society, there is the order of the eagle, etc, etc. Either these organizations are tiny, or a hugely disproportionate number of people are members of them.
I mean if there are a thousand members of the pathfinder society, then 1 out of every 3800 people is a member, 1000, Hellknights same thing,
I mean if one out of every 3800 people qualifys to be a HEllknight that is a pretty significant portion of the population. This doesn't include regular old knights, or soldiers, or anything else. Doesn't this seem like an odd make up of a world.... who farms, makes furniture, roofs houses, fishes, etc.
Well, look today lawyer population in the US:
U.S.A.: There is one lawyer for every 265 Americans.
Brazil follows closely with one lawyer on every 326 Brazilians.
how they make a living? ;)
Most "Hellknigths" don't have the Hellknight prestige class, they are rank and file guys.
So most "old plain knight" in Celaxia and Nidal are in the Hellknight organization. In Andoran they are member of the Order of the Eagle and so on for the different nations.
It is a ballpark number, but I think that today standing armies in time of peace or limited war are formed by about 0,5% of the population (that would mean almost 200.000 persons in the Inner sea), going up to 2.5% in time of protracted wars (the approximate percentage of the French army under Napoleon). And Napoleon was capable to sustain that level of mobilisation for a long period, even if it had negative effects on the general economy.
So we could hypothesize that 2,5% of the population can be an adventurer or part of a regular or irregular army in a world like Golarion where the need for combatants is more strongly needed than in out own.
That would mean about 1.000.000 people as members of the different army, military and para military organizations.
The negative effects of that level of "mobilisation" can be one of the reasons for the relative static of Golarion society.
Should be about 500 million (humans) for the whole planet, renaissance level plus the influence of magic.
Looking the site Son of the Veterinarian linked, in 1500 the European population was 19% of the world population.
The Inner sea region is x2 Europe territory. So making a proportion we get about 100 millions as the number of of human and demi-human population in Golarion. Then we have all the other races. They live in areas that are marginal at best for normal humans (whole civilizations in underground caverns).Hard to guess what is the total population.

James Sutter Contributor |
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Populations are one of the biggest headaches in game design. No matter what number a designer gives, once you get any bigger than a town, the fact that population numbers are hard to judge (and shift wildly depending on historical era, etc.) combines with the fact that we're all game designers rather than census statisticians to guarantee that pretty much any figure we give is going to be wrong. And of course, population figures change daily as folks are born and die.
So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, in addition to us not having an official number for the population of the world, I really, REALLY hope we never give one. Son of the Veterinarian is correct that the real answer should always be determined by your GM--nobody likes having their campaign idea undermined by population statistics.

James Sutter Contributor |

You are certainly right, James Sutter. This kind of thread is nice as it is thought provoking, but each GM should adjust the numbers as they fit hit playstile and wanted reality.
I should definitely add that individuals debating this sort of thing is totally fun--it's only the official answers that I'm opposed to. As far as I'm concerned, being a game designer is more about proposing interesting questions rather than answering them. :)
This may be why they don't have me working on rulebook errata.

Elthbert |
Populations are one of the biggest headaches in game design. No matter what number a designer gives, once you get any bigger than a town, the fact that population numbers are hard to judge (and shift wildly depending on historical era, etc.) combines with the fact that we're all game designers rather than census statisticians to guarantee that pretty much any figure we give is going to be wrong. And of course, population figures change daily as folks are born and die.
So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, in addition to us not having an official number for the population of the world, I really, REALLY hope we never give one. Son of the Veterinarian is correct that the real answer should always be determined by your GM--nobody likes having their campaign idea undermined by population statistics.
Well I think it matters tahtthe designers of a world are paying attention to such things when they design it, if you have too many organizations and they are sizable then your population has to be reasonably large. If it is too large tehn you start to wonder where all the humaniods and monsters are living. It is the kind of question which has and does comeup in games.

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Well I think it matters tahtthe designers of a world are paying attention to such things when they design it, if you have too many organizations and they are sizable then your population has to be reasonably large. If it is too large tehn you start to wonder where all the humaniods and monsters are living. It is the kind of question which has and does comeup in games.
And actually we DO keep things like that in mind. We don't need to know exact population totals for every country and the planet itself, though, to present a dynamic and interesting game world. We've got some vague ideas, and if I had the time and inclination I could certainly generate some population numbers that would work for me AND would work with the established canon of the setting... but a fair amount of folks would still get worked up about those numbers.
There are a few certain topics in RPG design that I've noticed tend to get people more worked up and argumentative than others—one of those topcis is city/world populations. (Others include firearms, ships and nautical stuff, and katanas).
My theory: Certain topics are beloved topics for gamers even beyond the game—things like guns and sailing ships and Japan history, and when games don't adhere exactly to the real world details of these topics (which they SHOULDN'T unless the game is set in the real world), people get freaked out.
I'm not sure why population numbers get the same sort of strange attention as firearms and ships and katanas... but they do. It's weird.

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Elthbert wrote:Well I think it matters tahtthe designers of a world are paying attention to such things when they design it, if you have too many organizations and they are sizable then your population has to be reasonably large. If it is too large tehn you start to wonder where all the humaniods and monsters are living. It is the kind of question which has and does comeup in games.And actually we DO keep things like that in mind. We don't need to know exact population totals for every country and the planet itself, though, to present a dynamic and interesting game world. We've got some vague ideas, and if I had the time and inclination I could certainly generate some population numbers that would work for me AND would work with the established canon of the setting... but a fair amount of folks would still get worked up about those numbers.
There are a few certain topics in RPG design that I've noticed tend to get people more worked up and argumentative than others—one of those topcis is city/world populations. (Others include firearms, ships and nautical stuff, and katanas).
My theory: Certain topics are beloved topics for gamers even beyond the game—things like guns and sailing ships and Japan history, and when games don't adhere exactly to the real world details of these topics (which they SHOULDN'T unless the game is set in the real world), people get freaked out.
I'm not sure why population numbers get the same sort of strange attention as firearms and ships and katanas... but they do. It's weird.
*one giant accusing finger pointed directly at you*
I am a geographer, sir. And YOU sir, are no geographer!
Alright, more seriously I think it is best left a bit vague. Size of some important cities, lots of leeway for the rest.
Because otherwise I start getting a little twitchy and wondering if the average annual rainfall is sufficient to support the agricultural output necessary to support a population of that scale and also produce the necessary surpluses to bring money in via commerce because this supplement says that they ship grain out of this market in that city and they must be shipping it somewhere but they could only do that if they produced enough to have a marketable surplus and had a market interested in buying it but if they are shipping it via animal transportation than they really can't be shipping it farther than [insert function] miles otherwise they would consume more than they could possibly make on the sale just in transportation energy expenditures *GASP* though it could be that they use the canal system because there are a lot of rivers here or maybe the old dwarven roads have some sort of enchantments along them to guarantee ready access to vegetables and grains that don't require constant tending but then that would attract monstrous humanoids and on crap I didn't take them into account when I was computing whether the rainfall was sufficient to support enough biomass in primary producers okay I can fix this um maybe there are alternate sources of calorie generation that regularly move energy from the Underdark to the surface but then that would open up new avenues of motion and the possibility of a faster route between two points on crap this is too complicated scrap the Underdark for now OH GOD the module introduces five tribes of goblins plus a town with a population of over a thousand in a four-square mile area how the heck am I supposed to what is this I don't even *BOOM*.
Put a different way: simulation is what some of us do, and it can break suspension of disbelief for some of us hard if certain variables are not handwaved into an acceptable range.

hogarth |
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So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, in addition to us not having an official number for the population of the world, I really, REALLY hope we never give one. Son of the Veterinarian is correct that the real answer should always be determined by your GM--nobody likes having their campaign idea undermined by population statistics.
Please don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good -- I'd rather have a reasonable-ish sounding estimate from someone who put some thought into it rather than trying to randomly guess a good answer by myself in the middle of a game.
P.S. I think a more interesting question is "How many giants live in Golarion?"

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James Sutter wrote:So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, in addition to us not having an official number for the population of the world, I really, REALLY hope we never give one. Son of the Veterinarian is correct that the real answer should always be determined by your GM--nobody likes having their campaign idea undermined by population statistics.Please don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good -- I'd rather have a reasonable-ish sounding estimate from someone who put some thought into it rather than trying to randomly guess a good answer by myself in the middle of a game.
P.S. I think a more interesting question is "How many giants live in Golarion?"
*GASP*
I hadn't even considered the giants in Varisia yet. They occupy a trophic level above even apex predators, up there with dragons and other things. What if they have another way of not burning energy? Or maybe they use magic to produce their food surpluses? Aha! Maybe that magic could make its way into the rest of the world that would explain the high population densities and relative lack of urbanization ...
I could go on -forever-. Please don't tell me how many giants there are total. It will end up implied by other factors anyway, and that implication is more flexible than a clumsy figure printed somewhere.

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Put a different way: simulation is what some of us do, and it can break suspension of disbelief for some of us hard if certain variables are not handwaved into an acceptable range.
And there's the problem.
"Acceptable range" is different for everyone. And so by not publishing hard numbers on things beyond city populations (and even THOSE annoy folks), we avoid that problem entirely while simultaneously empowering GMs who care about that element of the game with the ability to set those numbers however they want in their game.
I can't think of any single in-game element that would require knowing how many people are on Golarion, in any case, so the argument for such numbers is pretty much academic.

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Kegluneq wrote:Put a different way: simulation is what some of us do, and it can break suspension of disbelief for some of us hard if certain variables are not handwaved into an acceptable range.
And there's the problem.
"Acceptable range" is different for everyone. And so by not publishing hard numbers on things beyond city populations (and even THOSE annoy folks), we avoid that problem entirely while simultaneously empowering GMs who care about that element of the game with the ability to set those numbers however they want in their game.
I can't think of any single in-game element that would require knowing how many people are on Golarion, in any case, so the argument for such numbers is pretty much academic.
Thank you. That is just what I wanted to hear. You have earned a hug/brofist/other acceptable gesture of appreciation and camaraderie.

Kevin Andrew Murphy Contributor |

A certain amount of handwaving is necessary. Otherwise you get things like this: Dwarves live in mines but drink ale. Ale is made from water, barley, and hops, at least in the real world. If we want our fantasy dwarves to be drinking ale, we have to go with one or more of the following explanations:
A. The dwarves import a lot of hops and barley from the surface humans and halflings, trading for this with metal, gems, and possibly coal.
B. Dwarven ale is not made with barley or hops but instead with some cave fungi and/or slime mold which via convergent evolution exactly mimics the taste and brewing properties of barley and hops. (In reality there is a peach-flavored slime mold.)
C. Below the Darklands there's a Hollow Earth with its own internal sun, and also, incidentally, hop and barley fields, and this is where the dwarves get their crops when they're not trading for them with folk from the surface world.
Any of these could work, but all of them have repercussions on the shape of the world, so it's easier to not spell them out and let every GM pick one as suits the needs of his/her game.
Demographics? Very much the same thing. If they don't make perfect sense, the explanation is that there's recently been a war, a plague, a flood, or an influx of refugees fleeing the same.

Tacticslion |

James Jacobs wrote:Thank you. That is just what I wanted to hear. You have earned a hug/brofist/other acceptable gesture of appreciation and camaraderie.Kegluneq wrote:Put a different way: simulation is what some of us do, and it can break suspension of disbelief for some of us hard if certain variables are not handwaved into an acceptable range.
And there's the problem.
"Acceptable range" is different for everyone. And so by not publishing hard numbers on things beyond city populations (and even THOSE annoy folks), we avoid that problem entirely while simultaneously empowering GMs who care about that element of the game with the ability to set those numbers however they want in their game.
I can't think of any single in-game element that would require knowing how many people are on Golarion, in any case, so the argument for such numbers is pretty much academic.
Hey! I give free hugs and brofists! I'm just sayin'.
Also, over-all, I'm in complete agreement, James. Wise maneuvers...

deinol |

In some regions, such as Varisia and the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, it also helps explain the relative degree of cultural stagnation across those thousands of years.
There are plenty of places in the real world that had long periods of cultural stagnation. It can be said that the Eurasian Steppes had a fairly constant culture from the Scythians in 800 BC up through the Huns and the Mongols until just a few centuries ago.
The Sumerians had about 2000 years of cultural stability, although our records are a bit sparse so many of the minor variations might have been missed.
In fact, until the modern age with its fast global communications, cultures changed slowly except when great cataclysms (mostly invasions that brought new cultures together) mixed things up.

Arnwyn |

I can't think of any single in-game element that would require knowing how many people are on Golarion, in any case, so the argument for such numbers is pretty much academic.
There is the existence of Kingmaker-type realm-ruling stuff at high levels (which has existed since BECMI D&D), so I can't think of why one wouldn't put that type of information into a pre-made for-sale campaign world.
Any of these could work, but all of them have repercussions on the shape of the world, so it's easier to not spell them out and let every GM pick one as suits the needs of his/her game.
???? Doesn't Golarion already have a "shape of the world", being a pre-made campaign world and all?

Jeff de luna |

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:Any of these could work, but all of them have repercussions on the shape of the world, so it's easier to not spell them out and let every GM pick one as suits the needs of his/her game.???? Doesn't Golarion already have a "shape of the world", being a pre-made campaign world and all?
Yes, Golarion is round. I'm pretty sure this is established, what with magical flight, etc.
My guess is that dwarves buy their hops and yeast, but I should point out that sorghum is more likely in Garund to be the raw material.

Jeff de luna |

Jeff de luna wrote:Yes, Golarion is round. I'm pretty sure this is established, what with magical flight, etc.what
Sorry. Being a dork. Shape of the world reminded me of the whole flat earth belief... of course, some fantasy worlds are flat discs...
Realism in Golarion can only stretch so far, in my opinion. If dwarven beer is a major plot point, it tends to uncover inconsistencies, like a lack of huge wheat and hops plantations near the mountains. Though most civilized folk manage (and a bunch of animals, too) to figure how to make alcohol or drugs pretty early in their history. The Dwarves had to have some sort of recreational brew even before they hit the surface.

deinol |

A certain amount of handwaving is necessary. Otherwise you get things like this: Dwarves live in mines but drink ale. Ale is made from water, barley, and hops, at least in the real world. If we want our fantasy dwarves to be drinking ale, we have to go with one or more of the following explanations:
A. The dwarves import a lot of hops and barley from the surface humans and halflings, trading for this with metal, gems, and possibly coal.
B. Dwarven ale is not made with barley or hops but instead with some cave fungi and/or slime mold which via convergent evolution exactly mimics the taste and brewing properties of barley and hops. (In reality there is a peach-flavored slime mold.)
C. Below the Darklands there's a Hollow Earth with its own internal sun, and also, incidentally, hop and barley fields, and this is where the dwarves get their crops when they're not trading for them with folk from the surface world.
Any of these could work, but all of them have repercussions on the shape of the world, so it's easier to not spell them out and let every GM pick one as suits the needs of his/her game.
Dwarves of Golarion explains that dwarves didn't develop their now legendary affinity for ale until after they reached the surface. So that implies that they grow (or trade for) the necessary grains on the surface.

hogarth |

I can't think of any single in-game element that would require knowing how many people are on Golarion, in any case, so the argument for such numbers is pretty much academic.
Did you read the above comments about the (implied) thousands of members of the Pathfinder Society, Hellknights, and other organisations? That might make sense in an Inner Sea region with 50 million people, but not so much in a region of 1 million people.
Please don't tell me how many giants there are total. It will end up implied by other factors anyway, and that implication is more flexible than a clumsy figure printed somewhere.
Don't keep me in suspense! What's the implied result??

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James Jacobs wrote:I can't think of any single in-game element that would require knowing how many people are on Golarion, in any case, so the argument for such numbers is pretty much academic.Did you read the above comments about the (implied) thousands of members of the Pathfinder Society, Hellknights, and other organisations? That might make sense in an Inner Sea region with 50 million people, but not so much in a region of 1 million people.
Then that would (imply) that there's a lot more than 1 million people in the Inner Sea Region, yeah? In any event, it's still not an element that's necessary to know in order to play a Hellknight or fight a Pathfinder or whatever.

James Sutter Contributor |

Pathfinder is fundamentally a game about fun and adventure. To some of us staffers, massive population figures are not fun. In fact, they're the sort of thing that (in my personal opinion) hamstrings a campaign setting, precisely because it reduces a GM's ability to hand-wave. If we--or a GM--want to introduce a new faction, or nation, or whatever, and realize we can't because it wouldn't make sense given the population figures we've listed... that sucks. We also don't get too technical about physics, or the mechanics of magical practitionership, or rainfall, or tax codes, or any other ephemera along those lines for much the same reason. Yes, we could provide that information. But we don't think it's fun.
You're welcome to disagree and decide those matters for yourself. And because we haven't published an official figure, there's no way for anyone to contradict you.
With all of our books, the goal is not to create an encyclopedia of Golarion--it's to provide a fun, exciting introduction to those aspects which adventurers are most likely to interact with.