How does the Culverin work?


Rules Questions


First, it's a scatter weapon, and all the other scatter weapons* explicitly list how big their cone is. So how big is a Culverin's cone when used to fire a scatter shot?

Second, it's listed as using grapeshot. In the scatter weapon quality description, cannons are also listed as using grapeshot (even though the cannon description itself later says it uses cannonballs, with their cost and weight listed). Where is grapeshot defined?

Third, scatter weapons can be fired using either bullets or pellets, using a normal single attack or the cone function, respectively. Is the Culverin capable of this, as well? If so, is its normal function derived from the cannonball entry in the cannon description while the cone/scatter function works off this grapeshot, whatever it is?

*The exception is the double-barreled shotgun, though it's easy enough to extrapolate that this weapon uses the same ranges as the regular shotgun.

...

On a less related note, does text still trump tables? Because the Dragon Pistol has one range increment for normal fire listed in its description (10 foot range increment) and another increment listed on the table (20 feet)?


Culverin is only a scatter weapon and its listed range is its cone range.


Okay, so what's the word on this "grapeshot" ammo?


What's the intention behind "grapeshot"? I mean, if its cost, weight, and other stats not listed, then the only use that I can see for any weapon that uses grapeshot can be as a plot device. I.e., the DM can write an encounter scenario where the PCs have access and use of a grapeshot-using firearm because DM fiat means that they'll have all the ammo necessary for that encounter, but outside, it'll be useless because of the lack of stats.

Was that the intention? Was the Culverin written into UC as a potential plot device for the DM but not to be used willy-nilly by the PCs?


First off, I'm pretty sure the term "grapeshot" was an editorial mistake, like UC seems to be riddled with. I'm 99% sure that "grapeshot" is synonimous with "pellets", like all the other scatter guns use for scatter shots. There is the slight possibility that "grapeshot" was a siege ammunition type that was cut from editing, and they didn't go back to fix other mentionings of it (like the three non-existent Tetori bonus feats). The culverin is, essentially, a miniature cannon, and cannons often used grapeshot as an anit-personnel ammunition. For the purposes of mechanics, for simplicities sake, I'd just load it with pellets, as it's virtually the same thing (which is likely why, if grapeshot was it's own ammunition, it may have been cut due to risking redundency).

Next, seeing as how a culverin is listed specifically as to what it's shot with, it would seem that the culverin cannot shoot bullets, therefore it is always a scatter weaon, therefore the range listed in its entry is the size of the cone.


Scatter Weapons use grapeshot for their area effect attacks. The PRD does not list a grapeshot ammo type, but it not unreasonable to have it costing the same as other simple gun ammo (by weight). Reading the entry two above the Culverin for the Blunderbuss says it uses eithe a bullet or Pellets, so it looks like Pellets = Grapeshot.


I don't have UC, so i cant comment on what is and isnt in the book, but i would ~suggest~ that grape shot cost 2x the amount of a normal sized cannon ball for the gun. I (again) don't know if they break down costs for different sized cannon balls (depending on the type/diameter of cannon), but if they don't, just use the same cost all around, for simplicity sake.


Stubs - UC is now part of the PRD, which is where my links go to. Bullets and Pellets cost the same per shot and weigh the same :)


Ah, fair enough :P Taking a look at the culverin on the prd, i now see it is a "hand cannon", otherwise known as an 8 gauge shotgun ... Not a fore/aft-mounted small cannon for close in anti personnel ship warfare... was assuming it was the latter, and suggesting that cannon ball prices would be more adequate in determining cost than pellets for a shotgun, but all in all i was incorrect, so please disregard my post :)


There are two different types of ammunition, but only weapons with the scatter property can use both. To target one creature you use bullets, to make a "scattering shot" you use pellets, not clear in the rules but imo it seems to be the intention.

Quote:


(pag 137)
A weapon with the scatter
weapon quality can shoot two different types of
ammunition. It can fire normal bullets that target one
creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all
creatures within a cone.
[...]
(pag 141)
Using anything other than pellets
or alchemical cartridges when firing off a cone attack with
a scatter weapon increases the weapon’s misfire range by 1

Grapeshot is only used by cannons (siege warfare) and does the same job pellets do.

Quote:


Cannons with the scatter weapon
quality only fire grapeshot, unless their descriptions state
otherwise.

Grapeshot is called "Blast Shot" in the Siege Engines Chapter (pag. 164). No cannon have the scatter quality, but Blast Shot can be used by some guns.

By the way, Grapeshot (blast shot in UC) ammo wasn't available in the Middle Ages, but improvised grapeshot was sometimes used - loading a lot of small metal objects into the cannon (less efective and requires more time to reload).

The culverin should use the ammount of bullets or pellets stated in the description, not grapeshot.


Historically, there is quite a bit of difference between pellets (also know as shot, which is where shotgun comes from)and grapeshot. Typical shotgun buckshot is about 7-8mm or .25-.3 in. diameter, while grapeshot ranged from .75 to 1.25 in. diameter. The larger size meant they remained lethal at much greater ranges.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / How does the Culverin work? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.