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One only stays on a path because they are afraid of becoming lost. Those that know themselves and trust their hearts are free to wander, to veer left and right as the obstacles of life demand and see the full wonder that lies off the beaten path.
That may be so. But if all the world were to act as their hearts guide than the obstacles would still hold tyranny over the world, would they not?
A Hellknight paladin has the Measure and the Chain. By these two, each obstacle may be surmounted and the Good upheld. He is tyrant unto himself, neither beholden nor compelled. His heart is trusted, for its limits are mapped in suffering and trial.
*removes his helmet*
*Ahem*
Kegluneq (helmeted and not) and Mika- er, Liath Samathran:
You guys are full of winning. Both of you.
That is all. Carry on.
that may be so. But if all the world were to act as their hearts guide than the obstacles would still hold tyranny over the world, would they not?
no.
Its not the obstacles that define you, its your reactions to them.
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(TOO LATE EDIT TO ABOVE: A big "that's sweet, bro" to BigNorseWolf, too!)
no.
Its not the obstacles that define you, its your reactions to them.
I actually mostly agree with you here. That said, if all acted as their hearts guided them, the world would be a much, much darker and more vile place. 'Cause that's totally what laws are for. Regulatin' all that passionate silliness all up in them peoplezez!
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that may be so. But if all the world were to act as their hearts guide than the obstacles would still hold tyranny over the world, would they not?no.
Its not the obstacles that define you, its your reactions to them.
*dons his helmet*
Then go through. Do not let such things turn you left and right.
The world is full of danger, make no mistake in this. Allow your heart to wander and you invite all the danger of the world to feast on it. Every paladin carries a code, a creed to guide them through this world. But it is the Hellknight conviction that the greatest good may only be achieved by the greatest Discipline.
I am cruel, it is true. I am not proud of this, for I have closed my heart to such things. But I am precisely cruel. I am cruel with purpose. When I sense myself waver, or when duty weighs upon me, the Measure illustrates why this cruelty upholds Good. When I meditate upon the Chain, I engage my doubt and fear, leaving it behind because it will not serve me.
If this reaction defines me, so be it.
*removes his helmet*
*Ahem*
Kegluneq (helmeted and not) and Mika- er, Liath Samathran:You guys are full of winning. Both of you.
That is all. Carry on.
Aw, shucks. I just like taking on rhetoric straight. It is so easy to misconstrue arguments from a distance, and the single example of the convicted Hellknight Paladin I am trying to portray is more instructive. Or at least I think it is.
The fact that this is actually a reasonable debate for two LG paladins to be having illustrates why the Hellknights are actually a valuable contribution to the setting.
It is rather likely that the strain of being a Hellknight leads many Hellknight paladins to either fall as paladins or leave the Hellknights, though. The self-negating absolute philosophy the Hellknights embrace is, in many ways, even more restrictive than the dictum of Paladinhood. Add to that the tendency in militaristic organizations toward compliance and conformity, and it is easy to become a tool or cease to pay the Hellknight philosophy anything more than lip service.
Or worse, just become a power-mad knight of Hell. It's all "staring into the abyss" with these guys, you know?
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One can follow ones own rules and be lawful without following the law of the land. I really wish that it had originally been called "Order & Chaos" and not "Lawful & Chaotic". Law is not the opposite of Chaos, it's just one agent of Order. The opposite of Law/Lawful is Lawless/Unlawful....I must now say this
"who are you?"
And
"What do you want?"
Well Seekerof shadowlight, I can't at the moment think of anything witty to say, so I'll steal someone else's words.
" get the heck out of our galaxy!"
I really liked Babylon 5 and its spin off that never went anywhere Crusade.
I seem to remember reading somewhere, that Mr Strazinsky when asked by a fan "how fast does a white star go?" he replied "oh a white star travels at the speed of plot"
Then go through. Do not let such things turn you left and right.
Why? Why go through instead of going around? Are you so sure in your path that you know there's nothing better to see outside it? No better destination than the one you've set? No better way of reaching reaching it than plowing strait ahead?
The world is full of danger, make no mistake in this. Allow your heart to wander and you invite all the danger of the world to feast on it.
All the danger to eat it, and all the wonder to fill it. If living holds no joy for you,if good is not your ultimate goal, if order and a lack of evil are all you seek then look no further than the peace of the grave. It is cold, stale, static, and unchanging. There is no temptation, there strife, only perfect, unchanging order. You fight so hard for something that is a mere thrust of a dagger away.
Every paladin carries a code, a creed to guide them through this world. But it is the Hellknight conviction that the greatest good may only be achieved by the greatest Discipline.
Look to your own name for the absurdity of that statement. Is there any where more orderly than hell itself? Does hell lack for order or discipline? No. Hell lacks Compassion, mercy, and DIRECTION. Hell has lost sight of what order and discipline are supposed to be FOR: the betterment of the people you're protecting. The very things you claim are weaknesses to be expunged are he only things separating you from the thing you're fighting.
When your laws make things worse then they serve no purpose.
I am cruel, it is true. I am not proud of this, for I have closed my heart to such things. But I am precisely cruel. I am cruel with purpose. When I sense myself waver, or when duty weighs upon me, the Measure illustrates why this cruelty upholds Good. When I meditate upon the Chain, I engage my doubt and fear, leaving it behind because it will not serve me.
You are not cruel with purpose. You are cruel with mindless devotion to cruelty. You long ago forgot what you were supposed to be achieving with your cruelty.
If this reaction defines me, so be it.
One can follow ones own rules and be lawful without following the law of the land. I really wish that it had originally been called "Order & Chaos" and not "Lawful & Chaotic". Law is not the opposite of Chaos, it's just one agent of Order. The opposite of Law/Lawful is Lawless/Unlawful....I must now say this
"who are you?"
And
"What do you want?"
huh...
I think I'm missing something.
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I must now say this
"who are you?"
And
"What do you want?"
huh...
I think I'm missing something.
It was a Babylon 5 reference, ElyasRavenwood got it. The main plot revolves around millions of year old races who try to uplift younger races with two very different views on how to do so.
Order vs Chaos. The Volons ask "who are you" the shadows just asked "what do you want"
A fun note the order of the stick website "Giants in the playground" is also a b5 reference
And yes ElyasRavenwood I liked crusade myself, a pity it never lasted.I really wish the show got have the love trek seems to, a real pity.
Chuck if you have never watched B5 you really should. Such a fine sci-fi show. And when the plot starts to come together you notice it hard, all those small things from the earlier sesions that you never put together. One of those rare "Oh crap" moments.
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Why? Why go through instead of going around? Are you so sure in your path that you know there's nothing better to see outside it? No better destination than the one you've set? No better way of reaching reaching it than plowing strait ahead?
...
*dons his helmet*
Your inability to see the meaning and purpose in pain and cruelty does not invalidate our philosophy. When you burn your hand upon a stove, do you continue grabbing at kettles without a mitt? From your rhetoric, I would suspect you find some value in such senseless repetition.
And, worse, the crux of your argument rests on your discomfort with Law, your own insecurity with your own faculty for discerning reason. Like the fey beasts or a mad demon, you savor variety and creativity as an end unto itself. You mistake laws for Law, and a future worth possessing for the end of personal freedom. Like a madman, you rave of other destinations, when experience and Truth reveals what is Good and the path to it.
We have no need to defend the morality of Hell. Your attempts to align the Hellknight Orders with the fiery pit are wasted. Tell me instead this: how will your wonder and fancy, your dreams and caprice feed the starving? Or turn back blades in the night? Abandon reason and forsake cruelty if it turns your stomach, brother paladin, but for the good of all the Hellknights cannot.
When the time has come that the Hellknights are no longer needed, then and only then you may at last confront the glory of Law and see if you yet dissent or want for 'other destinations'. Until then, temptation must be overcome. Emotion quelled. 'Cold', 'Merciless', 'Uncompromising'. Yes. Yes indeed.
*removes his helmet*
[E.
Who says the founder was LG? He basically spit on the LG church of Adoren, no? I personally think he was a LE favored of Asmodeus put in as a shill to steer folk away from LG...and it WORKED!
See there you go, changing the history. What he was is well known. Three of what 12 orders have evil over tones. Big deal how many of those are non evil? We know at lest three orders are lead by paladins, most orders are overwhelmingly LN. Hell knights as a whole do not care about Good or evil.
One man in ten is evil so they are all evil. That is what you are saying. They are LN, die hard do what ever I must LN. They do not break the law, they do not care why you broke the law, they do not care you felt you had no other option but to starve. That would have been legal. That is what LN is.
You see Hellknight and sadly assume it must be evil and that is the cheap way out. Le do bad things. LN does what ever it takes.
We can keep disagreeing but it comes down to you think the folks who wrote the history of the Hellknights got it wrong. You simply change things until it must be evil and that is not how they are.
I changed the history? Where? Where does it say the founder was LG? Point it out for me, please! It does say he told the CHurch of Aroden to stick it. Why did they promptly call his order 'Hellknights', if he was 'merely' a LN sort, hmm?
1/4 of the orders and basically everyone in them are outright evil (very few LN and no LG in those orders). That's 25% of all Hellknights. Now, a quarter to a half of all Hellknights in the LN orders are LE. Let's say that's 25% of all Hellknights,not including those above. And a minute fraction are wondering what the idiots in the LG orders are about and we'll forget about them. The LG orders are probably 30% LG and 70% LN, because LG people don't tend to flock to being Hellknights. And they are distinctly in the minority in all Hellknight orders, I believe was mentioned?
That's at least ~35-40% of Hellknights are outright LE. And that number increases among the HIGHER LEVEL HELLKNIGHTS, and as time goes on. As the devs stated. It's a function of the PrC and the orders. The higher a Hellknight you are, the more and more likely you're an LE heartless bastard. 40-50% are LN (at best), and 10-20% AT BEST are LG.
You are not paying attention to the history OR what has been posted. If it's LN, it's among the newbies. The higher up you go, the more and more it tilts to LE, and that's where the power is.
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I'm denouncing because he's outright twisting the facts and ignoring what has already posted, to make an argument which has no support. He's not even reciting past arguments...he's saying what is NOT TRUE.
====Aelryinth
because LG people don't tend to flock to being Hellknights.
True. Anymore than LE people flock to being Hellknights. See, both are in the minority. That's why they're both pointed out as being in the minority.
And they are distinctly in the minority in all Hellknight orders, I believe was mentioned?
Yes, just like lawful evil people.
That's at least ~35-40% of Hellknights are outright LE.
NICE numbers from NOWHERE! :D
And that number increases among the HIGHER LEVEL HELLKNIGHTS, and as time goes on. As the devs stated. It's a function of the PrC and the orders. The higher a Hellknight you are, the more and more likely you're an LE heartless bastard. 40-50% are LN (at best), and 10-20% AT BEST are LG.
Nnnnnnnnnnnno. Individuals tend to become more neutral (as in LAWFUL NEUTRAL), but the (from air) numbers you give already include those who have a predisposition to evil, not those who become it (because it's taken from a spectrum across the already established group of all orders). One does not need levels in the Hellknight PrC in order to advance in the organization anymore than one needs Pathfinder Chronicler, or Pathfinder Explorer levels (or that Pathfinder mage class) in order to advance in the Pathfinder Society (because: you don't need them to advance in the organization).
You are not paying attention to the history OR what has been posted. If it's LN, it's among the newbies. The higher up you go, the more and more it tilts to LE, and that's where the power is.
Nah. The more class levels the more it tilts toward LE. The "higher up" you go in the organization, the more it tilts toward LN. As has been stated. And you keep ignoring.
I'm denouncing because he's outright twisting the facts and ignoring what has already posted, to make an argument which has no support. He's not even reciting past arguments...he's saying what is NOT TRUE.
No. YOU are outright twisting the facts and ignoring what's already posted in order to make an argument that not only has no support, but is not true, and has been clearly and completely rebuffed by the Devs. Again, you may feel free to do this with your home game, but be aware, it's just that - your home game.
Dude, you seem to be on some sort of mistaken crusade here, and it's kind of silly. You're not foolish. I've seen you make intelligent, reasoned, posts. These aren't some of them. I mean, you're actually kind of acting like a misguided Hellknight paladin about to fall (into lawful neutral from lawful good): too hung up on the rules to allow for the whole truth of the situation, while making snap, unyielding, unbending judgements against those that disagree with you because it's not supported by YOUR interpretation of the rules.
Chill. You're wrong. You've been told you're wrong. You're not wrong to play the game (or rule it) the way you want (for your home games), but by RAW, Canon, and reason, Hellknights are feasibly Paladins. They might not stay that way throughout their careers, but that's not the point. After all, barbarians can become lawful, monks chaotic, and anti-paladins "fall" from time to time as well. It's a thing. It happens when alignment shifts. :)
Finally, the lawful evil tend toward lawful neutral just as much as the lawful good. You're looking at it as a one-way street to eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil. It's not. It's a one-way street directly to lawful neutrality. Your claims are unsupported save by a vague interpretation of the name including "hell" in it. Your arguments are not sound.
As of this post, I'm done with this line of conversation. If you're not convinced, fine. Just know that you're also not convincing. So, you know, you should learn to say to yourself "it's just a game, I should really just relax!" :D
I changed the history? Where? Where does it say the founder was LG? Point it out for me, please! It does say he told the CHurch of Aroden to stick it. Why did they promptly call his order 'Hellknights', if he was 'merely' a LN sort, hmm?
1/4 of the orders and basically everyone in them are outright evil (very few LN and no LG in those orders). That's 25% of all Hellknights. Now, a quarter to a half of all Hellknights in the LN orders are LE. Let's say that's 25% of all Hellknights,not including those above. And a minute fraction are wondering what the idiots in the LG orders are about and we'll forget about them. The LG orders are probably 30% LG and 70% LN, because LG people don't tend to flock to being Hellknights. And they are distinctly in the minority in all Hellknight orders, I believe was mentioned?
Can you show us where you got your numbers from? The LE orders count as all LE but the LG are only 30% LG? And the LN orders are up to half LE? Yeah, I'm sure none of this is skewed toward your bias. :P
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I changed the history? Where? Where does it say the founder was LG? Point it out for me, please! It does say he told the CHurch of Aroden to stick it. Why did they promptly call his order 'Hellknights', if he was 'merely' a LN sort, hmm?
1/4 of the orders and basically everyone in them are outright evil (very few LN and no LG in those orders). That's 25% of all Hellknights. Now, a quarter to a half of all Hellknights in the LN orders are LE. Let's say that's 25% of all Hellknights,not including those above. And a minute fraction are wondering what the idiots in the LG orders are about and we'll forget about them. The LG orders are probably 30% LG and 70% LN, because LG people don't tend to flock to being Hellknights. And they are distinctly in the minority in all Hellknight orders, I believe was mentioned?
That's at...
*dons his helmet*
Ah. The one-drop fallacy again. A single evil soul exists to validate your notions of a Hellknight, so your thoughts must be sound. Curious how you Andoran types cling such an outlook.
One sin, one cruelty, makes the entire philosophy inescapably evil, does it? By your own logic, there is no assembly of men, no nation, no village and no association not untainted. None are innocent.
State your argument, your thesis, clearly. For the moment, you are a bleeding heart, keening on in terror for fear of justice.
*removes his helmet*
I changed the history? Where? Where does it say the founder was LG? Point it out for me, please! It does say he told the CHurch of Aroden to stick it. Why did they promptly call his order 'Hellknights', if he was 'merely' a LN sort, hmm?
A few things here, you are ignoring the history as told by the person who wrote it. From this very thread we know he was a life long sevent of Ardon, Not Asmodues. A fact you both ignore and "wrote" your own history to change. We also know from this very thread and the man who wrote it that they were dubbed Hellknight "when the bishop of Westcrown came to consecrate the new order, Ruel passionately rejected the church's blessing. Thus, the furious Aroden worshipers came to call the new knightly order "Hellknights."
It has nothing to do with hell or Asmodues but a pissed off faithful of a now dead god because they refused to be a Knightly order in his name.
You like to ignore this and rework history to make them "evil" and servants of asmodues when they were not.
1/4 of the orders and basically everyone in them are outright evil (very few LN and no LG in those orders). That's 25% of all Hellknights. Now, a quarter to a half of all Hellknights in the LN orders are LE. Let's say that's 25% of all Hellknights,not including those above. And a minute fraction are wondering what the idiots in the LG orders are about and we'll forget about them. The LG orders are probably 30% LG and 70% LN, because LG people don't tend to flock to being Hellknights. And they are distinctly in the minority in all Hellknight orders, I believe was mentioned?
I'll Hunt my books out and look at the leader ship later but I strongly feel you are incorrect on you 40% mark. We know and have been told the overwhelming AL of the Hellknights is in fact LN not LE, you keep ignoring the facts as stated by folks who wrote them.
LN will do evil( but lawful) if ordered, that is why they are LN, orders are orders but you ignore this fact as well.
You have in your head they are evil and to hell with what is written or the Dev's or the man who wrote the stuff has to say on the matter.
I think you do not understand LN or hellknights at all. You simply keep repeating the same incorrect assumptions even after the folks in charge cleared them up.
I'll post up the Al's of the leadership later and we'll see if its mostly evil as you claim.
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... snip snip quality stuff snip snip ...
*dons his helmet*
To place the mark of Law upon the world is more than the edicts of kings or the codes of village councils. Law is more than simple laws. Law is hierarchy, obedience, and fairness. Justice, through and through.
A Hellknight in a chaotic land is tyrant, at the very least, of all within reach of their sword. Where they walk, Law is upheld.
*removes his helmet*
And you are very right, the big problem for the Hellknights (or any organization, really, Paladin Knighthoods included) is the free rider problem, the tendency for the few to exploit the philosophies, reputations and resources of the many. The Lawful Good types, like the character I'm playing above, will defend their doctrine to the last, even as some among them actively truck with devils or support their preferred rulers for personal gain.
Ah, that razor thin difference between emulation and veneration.
Just about every argument about the impropriety or name of the Hellknight orders could be turned against your average Paladin order. In fact, the very notion that the average monarch or kingdom tolerates the constant interference of dedicated, heavily armed orders of knight-paladins for very long stretches my disbelief.
Example time: Consider the case of Cheliax. If I, ruler of Cheliax, want to go to war with Nidal and end the threat of their shadowy evil lets say, and in doing so I intend to bleed whole provinces dry of food and tax revenue to support the war effort, than I read that the general notion of the conduct of LG Paladin Orders is that they would find themselves either:
a) compelled to place Law and Good above their loyalty to me, the monarch, and therefore find themselves in armed rebellion against the state because of the state's willingness to destroy innocent and powerless people,
b) compelled to go to war and enforce the will of the state, because they may overlook the cruelties of the moment and cooperate with evil in the pursuit of greater good, or
c) compelled to fall, every last one of them, because they cannot obey the laws of the kingdom, heed the call to fight the evil of Nidal, and defend the innocent simultaneously.
Nope. No easy choice there. The Hellknights, in general, are a more flexible tool for this hypothetical Cheliax, but the same conundrums apply.
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Just to add some info to the discussion I went through the hell knight article in Ap27 and the alignment of all the mentioned characters are split as follows
LN 8
LE 3
LG 5
So out of 7 orders half the higher ups are neutral Slightly over a quarter are good with the minority being evil(the only order where all the commanders being evil being the order of the gate and thats because for that order only has one person listed for it's commanders)
I changed the history? Where? Where does it say the founder was LG? Point it out for me, please! It does say he told the CHurch of Aroden to stick it. Why did they promptly call his order 'Hellknights', if he was 'merely' a LN sort, hmm?A few things here, you are ignoring the history as told by the person who wrote it. From this very thread we know he was a life long sevent of Ardon, Not Asmodues. A fact you both ignore and "wrote" your own history to change. We also know from this very thread and the man who wrote it that they were dubbed Hellknight "when the bishop of Westcrown came to consecrate the new order, Ruel passionately rejected the church's blessing. Thus, the furious Aroden worshipers came to call the new knightly order "Hellknights."
It has nothing to do with hell or Asmodues but a pissed off faithful of a now dead god because they refused to be a Knightly order in his name.
You like to ignore this and rework history to make them "evil" and servants of asmodues when they were not.
1/4 of the orders and basically everyone in them are outright evil (very few LN and no LG in those orders). That's 25% of all Hellknights. Now, a quarter to a half of all Hellknights in the LN orders are LE. Let's say that's 25% of all Hellknights,not including those above. And a minute fraction are wondering what the idiots in the LG orders are about and we'll forget about them. The LG orders are probably 30% LG and 70% LN, because LG people don't tend to flock to being Hellknights. And they are distinctly in the minority in all Hellknight orders, I believe was mentioned?I'll Hunt my books out and look at the leader ship later but I strongly feel you are incorrect on you 40% mark. We know and have been told the overwhelming AL of the Hellknights is in fact LN not LE, you keep ignoring the facts as stated by folks who wrote them.
LN will do evil( but lawful) if ordered, that is why they are LN, orders are orders but you ignore this fact as...
Sigh. And now YOU are assuming that because he's a follower of Aroden, he was LG.
After he basically lost his faith in the Church and spit in their face.Yep, that makes sense. I'd say 'passionately rejected' the Church means he'd lost his faith in them, aye? And the whole PrC meant he went looking for other sponsors.
The devs have repeatedly and pointedly said that as you go higher into the HEllknight class you become more cold, cruel and merciless...and you gain access to Evil powers which some will employ, and thus turn further and further to Evil ends. You start to fall.
They have said this REPEATEDLY, and yet you are refuting it on face as you cling to the 'we're just lawful neutral, pay us no mind' mantra.
The 'public face' of the Hellknights is all about being LN. The fact that they deal with Hell, are known to deal with Hell, and it is the more powerful Knights among them that have access to the powers derived from Hell, which completely refutes what you are saying and claiming.
Three of the Orders are basically LE...proof that pure LE's are Hellknights. Higher level Hellknights increasingly fall to LE...LE's prescence grows the longer you remain a HEllknight in ALL orders. That is from the words of the devs!
LE is the only alignment which is growing in power among the Hellknights. Sure, they can start off LN or LG, but that rarely lasts long. The ones who hold onto those alignments are the ones who are not taking the PrC levels!
==Aelryinth
Your inability to see the meaning and purpose in pain and cruelty does not invalidate our philosophy. When you burn your hand upon a stove, do you continue grabbing at kettles without a mitt? From your rhetoric, I would suspect you find some value in such senseless repetition.
Of course. You can learn from "hot kettle hurts" and then, like some clockwork automaton, program in "I will never touch a hot kettle". Alternatively, you could say "I will never touch a hot kettle without a damned good reason". Such reasons may not occur to the programer of the automaton, but may through the infinitely diverse possibilities that enrich our reality, become apparent at the worst possible times. For example, if you need to throw the boiling water into the face of an intruder.
And, worse, the crux of your argument rests on your discomfort with Law, your own insecurity with your own faculty for discerning reason.
Its not the insecurity I have with MY faculties of reasoning its the insecurities I have about OTHERS faculties of reasoning and with their honesty. Insecurities i do not hold without just cause. How often do those in power decide that the greater good would be served if someone else were to suffer on their behalf? How many wars are fought for the honor of the emperor but paid for with the blood of the peasants? It is almost ubiquitous that those in charge decide that the greater good requires lavishly decorated marble palaces and bountiful feasts for themselves. What pitiful excuse for the greater good is justifying the enslavement of the halflings?
Like the fey beasts or a mad demon, you savor variety and creativity as an end unto itself.
Partially correct, I value it for the good it can do and for its own sake. There is no good without the freedom to choose it, there is no honor in compulsion. Furthermore given the infinite variety of history the best possible solution is unlikely to be a solution that's been used before.
You mistake laws for Law, and a future worth possessing for the end of personal freedom. Like a madman, you rave of other destinations, when experience and Truth reveals what is Good and the path to it.
The cry of the empire. Oppressing you today for a better tomorrow. How many thousands of years need to pass before you realize that that tomorrow will never come, and the oppression is for naught but the self aggrandizement of those at the top?
We have no need to defend the morality of Hell. Your attempts to align the Hellknight Orders with the fiery pit are wasted. Tell me instead this: how will your wonder and fancy, your dreams and caprice feed the starving?
Let a man keep his own crops and he'll grow his own crops.
Or turn back blades in the night?
Perhaps if some overzealous government agents weren't so fearful of their own people that they forbid them arms. magic, and training they wouldn't need "saving" in the first place.
Abandon reason and forsake cruelty if it turns your stomach, brother paladin, but for the good of all the Hellknights cannot.
Paladin? Keep your holy symbols. I got an axe, a beard, and a bear.
When the time has come that the Hellknights are no longer needed, then and only then you may at last confront the glory of Law and see if you yet dissent or want for 'other destinations'. Until then, temptation must be overcome. Emotion quelled. 'Cold', 'Merciless', 'Uncompromising'. Yes. Yes indeed.
And when will that be? Oddly enough those in power seem to decide that it is necessary that they stay there millennium after millennium. Odd that...either you have the ultimate job security or they're creating the ultimate job security.
Three of the Orders are basically LE...proof that pure LE's are Hellknights. Higher level Hellknights increasingly fall to LE...LE's prescence grows the longer you remain a HEllknight in ALL orders. That is from the words of the devs!
LE is the only alignment which is growing in power among the Hellknights. Sure, they can start off LN or LG, but that rarely lasts long. The ones who hold onto those alignments are the ones who are not taking the PrC levels!
==Aelryinth
I can not figure out where you are getting your information.
Order of the Chain:
Leaders - Lictor Uro Adom (LN male human fighter 5, hellknight 7), Master of Blades Mardinus (LN male human ranger 6, hellknight 2)
Order of the Gate:
Leader - Vicarius Giordano Torchia (LE male human wizard 11, hellknight 2)
Order of the Godclaw:
Leaders - Lictor Resarc Ountor (LN male fighter 4, cleric 2, hellknight 4), Armiger Regan Vashan (LG female paladin 3)
Order of the Nail:
Leaders - Lictor Severs “Boneclaw” DiViri (LE male fighter 4, rogue 2, hellknight 4), Mistress of Blades Maidrayne Vox (LG female centaur fighter 3, ranger 3, hellknight 2), Paravicar Acillmar (LN male human sorcerer 7, hellknight 1)
Order of the Pyre:
Leaders - Lictor Rouen Stought (LN female human ranger 6, hellknight 4), Master of Blades Tros Garvhost (LG male dwarf fighter 4, cleric 2, hellknight 3)
Order of the Rack:
Leaders - Lictor Richemar Alamansor (LE male human fighter 7, hellknight 7), Master of Blades Kassir Voidai (LN male human fighter 4, monk 2, hellknight 2), Paravicar Darcyne Wrens (LN female human sorcerer 8, hellknight 1)
Order of the Scourge:
Leaders - Lictor Toulon Vidoc (LN male human rogue 2, fighter 4, hellknight 7), Master of Blades Uldrannas Haelcant (LG male fighter 7, hellknight 1), Paravicar Orlayn Khorelos (LG female cleric of Abadar 7, hellknight 2)
Other Hellknights That I Could Find:
Hellknight Armigers (LN male/female human warrior 1), Hellknight (LN male/female human fighter 5/Hellknight 1), Shanwen Shanwen (LE male human cleric of Asmodeus 1), Paralictor Gonville Chard (LN male human ranger 7/Hellknight 2)
It's possible there are others that I couldn't find. If so, please add them.
I'm not offering any conclusions. I am merely offering the evidence, so everyone can use it to validate their statements made as evidence.
Ok, now that I've posted the stats, I am going to draw some conclusions.
Order of the Chain
All men lift themselves up upon the backs of others.
Order of the Gate
Judgment in the face of depravity.
Order of the Godclaw , leaning towards
Righteousness by obedience.
Order of the Nail , leaning towards
Savagery must be quelled, in the land, home, and mind.
Order of the Pyre , leaning towards
Reason’s flame consumes the shadow of corruption.
Order of the Rack , leaning towards
The venoms of the mind poison the body.
Order of the Scourge , heavily leaning towards
Without culpability chaos reigns.
Good says that the halfling has an inherent/god given right to be free.
No that would be CHAOTIC Good, as it talks about personal freedoms etc. The Lawful aspect holds no such grace, as that Halfling could have been a 'slave' or rather an 'indentured servant' due to many means, including as punishment for a crime.
He has no inalienable right to be free, otherwise there wouldn't be prisons eh?
Sigh. And now YOU are assuming that because he's a follower of Aroden, he was LG.
After he basically lost his faith in the Church and spit in their face.
Yep, that makes sense. I'd say 'passionately rejected' the Church means he'd lost his faith in them, aye? And the whole PrC meant he went looking for other sponsors.
No, You assumed he rejection of a faith meant he MUST have then worshiped Asmodues.MIne was show me anywhere it says that? Can you? Of chores not, as you made it up.
The PRC was not there at the front, it came about and was created by the hellknight orders over time. At the founding they did not call themselves hell knights nor did all the orders exist that now do.
The devs have repeatedly and pointedly said that as you go higher into the HEllknight class you become more cold, cruel and merciless...and you gain access to Evil powers which some will employ, and thus turn further and further to Evil ends. You start to fall.
And you incorrectly assumed this was evil. Some do evil as it has been shown those are a minority within both the order and the leadership of said order.Cold and merciless are LN traits, some will do evil for the greater good and still not be evil.
And by the number LG leadership outnumber the LE ones and LN outnumber them both.
Again just where are you pulling your random numbers from?
No that would be CHAOTIC Good
That a sentient being has a right not to be dragged out of the homes , locked in chains and put to work for somoene else under horrible conditions is a matter of GOOD, not merely chaotic good. Otherwise paladins wouldn't be against it at all.
Rights, even to the most chaotic chaotic good person, are not unconditional. They can be lost through ones actions.
That a sentient being has a right not to be dragged out of the homes , locked in chains and put to work for somoene else under horrible conditions is a matter of GOOD, not merely chaotic good. Otherwise paladins wouldn't be against it at all.
So explain to me why there would be prisons or a penal system in LG environs, because thats exactly what happens.
Chain gangs, indentured servitude, incarceration... all exist in LG societies.
Rights, even to the most chaotic chaotic good person, are not unconditional. They can be lost through ones actions.
So great, then the Paladin might indeed be more than within safe moral bounds to drag back a 'slave' to return him to his duties. The problem with the word 'slave' is that it covers an awful lot of situations. Why the person is a slave needs to be considered, and indeed the Paladin would be obliged to at least detain the Halfling and bring him/her back whilst the Paladin investigated the bona-fides and legitimacy of the Halflings servitude and detention.
In all cases, the Halfling would rightfully be detained and placed in custody.
The Paladin would not simply 'let them free' as that would be unlawful, and aiding and abetting a crime (in this case possibly 'theft') would also be a non-good action.
So great, then the Paladin might indeed be more than within safe moral bounds to drag back a 'slave' to return him to his duties. The problem with the word 'slave' is that it covers an awful lot of situations.
If you need to be more specific its chattel slavery. A slave is a slave, an indentured servant is an indentured servant, and a prisoner is a prisoner.
Why the person is a slave needs to be considered and indeed the Paladin would be obliged to at least detain the Halfling and bring him/her back whilst the Paladin investigated the bona-fides and legitimacy of the Halflings servitude and detention.
Which has the same effect as handing them over without investigating it, because no one but the paladin is going to care whether they're a thief, were born into slavery, or were innocent halfling number 3 on some slaving raid.
In all cases, the Halfling would rightfully be detained and placed in custody. The Paladin would not simply 'let them free' as that would be unlawful, and aiding and abetting a crime (in this case possibly 'theft') would also be a non-good action.
holy...
No. A billion times no. You are equating law with good. There is nothing rightful about the halfling being a slave because he was born one. There is nothing REMOTELY non good about abetting the crime of helping a slave escape. The action is both illegal and good. The fact that actions can be both is the entire raison d'etre of the chaotic good alignment.
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holy...
No. A billion times no. You are equating law with good. There is nothing rightful about the halfling being a slave because he was born one. There is nothing REMOTELY non good about abetting the crime of helping a slave escape. The action is both illegal and good. The fact that actions can be both is the entire raison d'etre of the chaotic good alignment.
Now now, lets not make this one of those alignment debates.
Er, which is to say ...
*dons his helmet*
A slave is a student. A slaveholder is an instructor. The slaveholder ensures that the labor of the slave contributes to society by the production of goods and services. Through their slavery, men and women are purged of their wilder ideas and first instructed in Discipline.
The chief aim of the Hellknights is their own obsolescence. The obsolescence of slaveholders and slavery is part of that aim. I believe that a slaveholder who refuses manumission to successive generations does greater harm to society than good, all in the name of personal greed. He holds back his students. But I will defend the institution.
How else can Ulfen savages be instructed in culture and reason? Or the ferocious half-orc street urchin? Compassion and reason? They lash out and flaunt public order even when their intentions are pure. Slavery is the most humane and instructive punishment, and the proper means of extending civilization to those unreceptive to it.
If your only opposition to the institution of slavery is mistreatment of slaves, than I invite you to the latifundia near Egorian.
*removes his helmet*
BNW You are just making that up.
Typical punishments for crimes 'back when' included work on chain gangs and indentured servitude.
You have simply decided that there's only one possible answer, and the Halfling is fleeing because he was set to service under arms through no doing of his own.
You just decided the only reason he was a slave was that he was born one, or taken as a slave (despite there being several other possible reasons). Similarly you have simply reinforced that it was a chaotic act to let him go - a breach of both the LG alignment the Paladin is holding dear, and a breach of the Hellknights requirement for law and order.
If he was a bankrupt debtor now undertaking indentured servitude as a slave, is it either a Good or Lawful act to aid in his escape?
A slave is a student. A slaveholder is an instructor.
By virtue of what knowledge? Superior force of arms? The superior ability to make money to hire force at arms, or the good fortune of being born in a nation with a strong military rather than a weak one.
The slaveholder ensures that the labor of the slave contributes to society by the production of goods and services. Through their slavery, men and women are purged of their wilder ideas and first instructed in Discipline.
And oddly enough they just happen, by sheer coincidence, to be contributing to the personal wealth of those who have so ordered society. Is it any surprise that one wonders who they're really trying to benefit? How daft do they think they are to think that its society they're benefiting by taking all but the merest living forcibly from those who work to earn it. Tell me, would society be any less orderly if the slaves were to keep 90% of their earnings? Free farmers are more productive than slave farmers, so your system is gaining in neither order nor efficiency.
The chief aim of the Hellknights is their own obsolescence. The obsolescence of slaveholders and slavery is part of that aim.
And how many millennia do you think that will take?
I believe that a slaveholder who refuses manumission to successive generations does greater harm to society than good, all in the name of personal greed. He holds back his students. But I will defend the institution.
And oddly enough the law does not require such manumission, and it will not require it so long as those with the power to enact the laws will profit from its lack.
Laws are a tool of government. Government is the tool of the wealthy. Slavish devotion to law is nothing more than slavish devotion to a status quo keeping the rich and the poor in their respective places regardless of actual merit.
How else can Ulfen savages be instructed in culture and reason?Or the ferocious half-orc street urchin? Compassion and reason? They lash out and flaunt public order even when their intentions are pure.
By example. If you believe slavery to be such a wondrous institution perhaps you should partake of its benefits.
Slavery is the most humane and instructive punishment, and the proper means of extending civilization to those unreceptive to it.
And the purpose for extending civilization is...? The "uncivilized" as you call them have more food per person, are less destructive to the land, need to work fewer hours, live longer and are far healthier than the whip lashed peasants plying away for the enrichment of their masters. They seem to be making a rational decision to live the way they do.
If your only opposition to the institution of slavery is mistreatment of slaves, than I invite you to the latifundia near Egorian.
No thank you. The last such invitation was made at the point of a crossbow.
BNW You are just making that up.
Ahem. You said "In all cases, the Halfling would rightfully be detained and placed in custody." Would the case of a halfling born into slavery or captured out of the blue be an exception?
Typical punishments for crimes 'back when' included work on chain gangs and indentured servitude.
And the term for such people was either prisoner or indentured servant. I don't think i need to go out on a limb to think that a slave is a slave and not an indentured servant or a prisoner. The golarion setting provides us with slaves, and in particular with a species specific preference for halfling slaves on the grounds that they don't take up much space and take less food to feed. (inner sea world guide under "halflings")
Also prisoner and justly imprisoned are not synonymous, especially with a court system getting a kickback from the number of people sold into slavery.
You have simply decided that there's only one possible answer, and the Halfling is fleeing because he was set to service under arms through no doing of his own.
You did say in all cases. That gives me the latitude to try to pick a case where your statement doesn't hold.
You just decided the only reason he was a slave was that he was born one, or taken as a slave (despite there being several other possible reasons). Similarly you have simply reinforced that it was a chaotic act to let him go - a breach of both the LG alignment the Paladin is holding dear, and a breach of the Hellknights requirement for law and order.
I'm going based on how the majority of slaves were acquired, as you put it, "back then"
I never challenged that it was a chaotic act: it is. The entire purpose of bringing it up was to offer an example of a conflict between law and good. You said it was a non good act.(aiding and abetting a crime (in this case possibly 'theft') would also be a non-good action) THAT is the part i am challenging.
Paladins CAN commit chaotic acts without falling.
If he was a bankrupt debtor now undertaking indentured servitude as a slave, is it either a Good or Lawful act to aid in his escape?
It can't be lawful. It might be good, to the point that I'm going to say it probably is good. It might be neutral. If he owed 5 gp and has been serving for 20 years but his effective owners are operating under a company store policy then yes, it would be good to help him escape. If his captors are doing unspeakable things to him then yes it would be good to help him escape.
holy...
No. A billion times no. You are equating law with good. There is nothing rightful about the halfling being a slave because he was born one. There is nothing REMOTELY non good about abetting the crime of helping a slave escape. The action is both illegal and good. The fact that actions can be both is the entire raison d'etre of the chaotic good alignment.
Now now, lets not make this one of those alignment debates.
Er, which is to say ...
*dons his helmet*
A slave is a student. A slaveholder is an instructor. The slaveholder ensures that the labor of the slave contributes to society by the production of goods and services. Through their slavery, men and women are purged of their wilder ideas and first instructed in Discipline.
The chief aim of the Hellknights is their own obsolescence. The obsolescence of slaveholders and slavery is part of that aim. I believe that a slaveholder who refuses manumission to successive generations does greater harm to society than good, all in the name of personal greed. He holds back his students. But I will defend the institution.
How else can Ulfen savages be instructed in culture and reason? Or the ferocious half-orc street urchin? Compassion and reason? They lash out and flaunt public order even when their intentions are pure. Slavery is the most humane and instructive punishment, and the proper means of extending civilization to those unreceptive to it.
If your only opposition to the institution of slavery is mistreatment of slaves, than I invite you to the latifundia near Egorian.
*removes his helmet*
If I understand you correctly, there are two important core beliefs at the heart of the Hellknight Orders.
So the Paladin Hellknight, regardless of his/her personal actions, is not enforcing justice and promoting general safety, but instead he/she working to create a state of “universal enslavement.”
Does anyone else see a problem with this?
Well your job, as a paladin and as a HK, is to capture that 'slave' and determine the Bona-fides of his case. No one says you have to just directly hand him over to his 'master', but remanding the suspect in custody and carrying out your investigation is your job, and something a Paladin LG HK should reasonably undertake.
To do less would be an abdication of ones duty.
Well your job, as a paladin and as a HK, is to capture that 'slave' and determine the Bona-fides of his case. No one says you have to just directly hand him over to his 'master', but remanding the suspect in custody and carrying out your investigation is your job, and something a Paladin LG HK should reasonably undertake.
To do less would be an abdication of ones duty.
Your job as a paladin is to help the helpless escape from the clutches of a great evil.
Your job as a hell knight is to help uphold said evil. There is no investigation. he is a slave. WHY he is a slave is irrelevant, its LEGAL.
Hence why i said that the arrangement was only going to last as long as your DM wanted it to, and that a pretty standard adventure hook could break it without trying.
If I understand you correctly, there are two important core beliefs at the heart of the Hellknight Orders.
# Concepts of duty, honor, and truthfulness are not part of “human/dwarven/elven/etc” nature, that such beings are basically foolish and despicable, and that must order be forcibly imposed for the “benefit” of such creatures.
# Lawful Society is extremely fragile and weak. For order to survive, all must be enslaved to some (any?) code of law. Obedience must be compelled by any means necessary.So the Paladin Hellknight, regardless of his/her personal actions, is not enforcing justice and promoting general safety, but instead he/she working to create a state of “universal enslavement.”
Does anyone else see a problem with this?
If you ever get a chance read "the measure and the chain" from PF 26( I think) You will find very little in the over all "laws" of the hellknights that forbids paladins and might see more then a few reasons why the Hellknights true goals might draw paladins to them.
Your job as a paladin is to help the helpless escape from the clutches of a great evil.
Your job as a hell knight is to help uphold said evil. There is no investigation. he is a slave. WHY he is a slave is irrelevant, its LEGAL.
There is the rub, slavery is not in and of itself evil. Not good but not evil.
And your Job as a Hellknight is to enforce the Hellknight code. If that slave holder is evil and curel and harming his slaves you can bet he has broken more then one of those codes.
As a Hellknight it is your duty to see his slave returned and see that he to pays for his crimes.
Correct SoSL.
Similarly as a Paladin you are expected to uphold the Law, not act out on your own without legal process. You can't just decide that a 'slave' should be set free without knowing the how and why of how they ended up as a slave. Do you release everyone from a prison because they are being 'kidnapped and detained'?