1. I interpreted the multiple morale effects line to refer only to overlapping effects - ones that gave a bonus to the same thing. Is that not the intended reading? Which I am not sure how that would work, exactly... if a Bard gives you Inspire Courage +2 while raging, and you chose that bonus, how would that affect rage as a
- Barbarian with Rage +1; i.e. temporary hit points, DR, etc - everything not covered by Inspire courage. Do they get a +2 bonus? +1? None?
- Barbarian with Rage +3, same things. Do they still apply at +3, or +2, or not at all?
2. Regardless, does this mean any morale effect, no matter what it applies to (even something rage does not affect at all) runs into the same multiple morale effects line?
3. Does Practiced Fighter, which increases effective fighter level for the effects on weapon training and fighter talents, apply at all to Primal Warrior or Knightly Order of the Raven's 15th level ability? There is no feedback in this example - One effective increase in fighter level is potentially boosting two separate talents which do not interact. If this is correct, it would allow an effective Barb 17 for rage, Fighter 20 for talents and Weapon Training, and Cleric 6 for spell casting via a Barb 3/Fighter 17 character. This is actually where I think I want to take this character, and I do not see anywhere it runs up against the Positive Feedback rules.
4. Then again, I did not actually see where the plain Primal Warrior created a positive feedback loop with Knightly Order- full synergy with barbarian levels for fighter talents would have increased the level towards any other fighter talent (including Knightly Order, which does not affect Primal Warrior at all). I was not trying to say, for example, that Primal Warrior allowing barbarian levels to provide full synergy to fighter talents would mean a Fighter 10/ Barb 10 had an effective Fighter level of 20 for strong synergy with barbarian rage, for a 24 effective level total for rage.
Unrelated possible typo - In the Spells chapter, Darkness and Deeper Darkness are called out as 2nd and 4th level spells, but in pathfinder they are 1st and 3rd. Which is correct? Does the Shadow Domain cleric get earlier spell access?
Some feedback on feats and combat maneuvers;
5. A Dirty Trick bonus is tacked on at the end of Improved feint. Is the increase in action economy (standard->move->swift) intended to apply to Dirty Trick as well? If not, should Bluff/BAB +6 include similar language as the other Improved feats for maneuvering strike, which would replace Quick Dirty Trick from Ultimate Combat (one dirty trick attempt as a replacement for the highest bonus attack in a full-round attack)? There is also Superior Dirty Trick, which increases one conditions removal to a full round rather than a standard. Perhaps that could be a BAB +16 / Bluff + 16? It also seems odd to require Weapon Finesse before being able to pull dirty tricks on someone…
Would it be better to just make an Improved Dirty trick feat to roll all of this together, and pull the improvements to dirty trick out of it’s text in the introduction and put it into the feat text? Right now Improved feint does not actually reference any improvements to Dirty Trick, including the negation of provoking AoO with the feat. This would also divorce Bluff from Dirty Tricks - as written, Bluff does not interact with dirty trick anywhere but the Improved Feint feat that I can find.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Combat Expertise (or something similar?)
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a dirty trick combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 competence bonus on checks made to inflict a dirty trick on a foe. This bonus increases by an additional +1 per 4 points of your base attack bonus. You gain a like bonus to CMD when defending against dirty trick maneuvers. Your ability to inflict dirty tricks improves as you gain in combat experience:
- Improved Dirty Trick: Whenever you successfully inflict a dirty trick on an opponent, the penalty lasts for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 round for every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD.
- Quick Dirty Trick: Whenever you make a full round attack, you may replace your highest BAB attack with a dirty trick attempt. -OR- You gain the effects of the Maneuvering Strike feat (Dirty Trick only), even if you do not possess that feat. In addition, removing the condition requires the target to spend a standard action. This supersedes the Quick Dirty Trick Feat, from Ultimate Combat.
- Greater Dirty Trick: If your base attack bonus is +11 or higher, whenever you inflict a dirty trick you can choose to either increase the removal condition to a full round action, or cause removing the condition to provoke an attack of opportunity.
- Knockout Blow: If your base attack bonus is +16 or higher, whenever you inflict a dirty trick you can choose to apply two effects, in place of increasing the removal condition or causing removal to provoke an AoO. The target must remove each condition individually.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a dirty trick combat maneuver. Creatures removing a penalty do not provoke attacks of opportunity; the normal penalty is a move action.
6. Improved X feats and Maneuvering Strike: if you have both feats, BAB+6 is not a useful improvement. Maybe add something like “If you do possess the feat, then you reduce the penalty for a full round maneuvering strike by X." -OR- "If you do possess the feat, you may make one _____ attempt as a free action in a full round attack.“
7. There are some feats/abilities which refer to the area you threaten, and others which refer to enemies or squares within reach; are these intended equivalent game terms? For example, with Shatter Defenses and Threat Zone would a 17th level fighter with a great sword be able to make an AoO on a shaken opponent who started its turn 15’ away?
8. I recall seeing at some point that a fighter with Keen and Improved critical could expand the threat range by an additional point - 18-20 -> 15-20 (either one) -> 14-20 (both). Did this disappear?
9. A couple typos: Stance mastery is a feat, not a fighter class feature as called out in the top of the Stance section on feats. Strike Mastery is a fighter talent, but is called out as a feat in the text of several other feats and the top of the Strike section on feats.
EDIT: 10. Did burrow speed keep the restriction on traveling through stone unless explicitly called out, and if so, should the plane of earth or underground terrain burrow speeds receive that text?
EDIT: 11. How would Spell Storing armor or weapons be priced? Straight from the core rules, or as a spell effect with something like Imbue with Spell Ability (4th level cleric)?
8. I recall seeing at some point that a fighter with Keen and Improved critical could expand the threat range by an additional point - 18-20 -> 15-20 (either one) -> 14-20 (both). Did this disappear?
I believe the hunter's Critical feat from ranger favored enemy feat's allows this, albeit only against a specific type of foe.
1. I interpreted the multiple morale effects line to refer only to overlapping effects - ones that gave a bonus to the same thing. Is that not the intended reading? Which I am not sure how that would work, exactly... Regardless, does this mean any morale effect, no matter what it applies to (even something rage does not affect at all) runs into the same multiple morale effects line?
I was trying to keep things simple at the table. Character generation can be complicated because you have time to do it, and some people like me enjoy the complexity. But during play, streamlined simplicity is usually a better goal than anything else. So, "you can rage or take the inspire courage stuff -- pick one, and you don't have to bother tracking rounds of rage while that's going on" is what I was shooting for.
EDIT: If there's a cantrip that provides a +1 morale bonus to blowing your nose for 1 hour/level, that would totally ruin what I was going for, because it would essentially provide infinite rage. So there might still be loopholes there to be closed.
3. Does Practiced Fighter, which increases effective fighter level for the effects on weapon training and fighter talents, apply at all to Primal Warrior or Knightly Order of the Raven's 15th level ability?
If you're saying, for example, "I have a fighter 6/barbarian 6 with Primal Warrior and Practiced Fighter, so I get strong synergy from [fighter +4 levels] vs. from [fighter level]," what you're actually doing is counting barbarian levels (4 of the non-fighter levels for Practiced Fighter) towards barbarian levels. That's a huge big-time no-no.
4. Then again, I did not actually see where the plain Primal Warrior created a positive feedback loop with Knightly Order- full synergy with barbarian levels for fighter talents would have increased the level towards any other fighter talent (including Knightly Order, which does not affect Primal Warrior at all). I was not trying to say, for example, that Primal Warrior allowing barbarian levels to provide full synergy to fighter talents would mean a Fighter 10/ Barb 10 had an effective Fighter level of 20 for strong synergy with barbarian rage, for a 24 effective level total for rage.
Tell you what -- let's deal with specific examples; it might be a lot more clear. Tell me what character we have, at what level, and what talents and feats, and I can parse it for you. At this point I've lost track if we even have cleric levels in the mix, for example, vs. just fighter and barbarian.
If possible, let's look at some examples below 20th level, because, let's face it, there are no amount of houserules that will allow the 3.5 chassis to function at that point, which is why a lot of the capstones say, not in so many words, "you win; roll up a new character."
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Only 20th? I think you give 3.5 too much credit :P
Hi Kirth,
My apologies for being difficult - I am confused by some of the synergy interactions and trying to understand how class features and feats interact with them. I think I see where you were saying that the barbarian levels counted twice towards the synergy - once at a 1:1 ratio via Primal Warrior, and a second time by way of the Practiced Fighter feat "making up" for the barbarian levels (up to the limit of Hit Dice). I think I misunderstand the point of the Practiced Fighter feat now - unless it should have a blanket statement that it does not count towards any fighter talents which provide synergy from other class levels? However, that is the exact opposite of what it explicitly says:
Special: The effects of [this] feat stack with class synergy features improving your effective fighter level; this a specific exception to the non-stacking rule.
I am looking at an eventual Barbarian 3 / Fighter 17, but lets call it a Barbarian 3 / Fighter 12 (the soonest this example comes up). Applicable fighter talents are Primal Warrior and Knightly Order (Order of the Raven). Feats are *possibly* Practiced Fighter. At 15th level, Order of the Raven grants spellcasting as a cleric of your fighter level -14 (Darkness and War domains). I originally thought that Primal Warrior's strong synergy would let the character count as a full hit dice fighter for the Order of the Raven 15th level class feature. Otherwise, you would qualify for the feature at 15th level via synergy and have an effective cleric level of 12-14 = -2. The first couple posts in this chain seemed to nix that idea. After I found the Practiced Fighter feat, I interpreted the special text to mean that it would increase effective fighter level by 3 (not 4, because of the Hit Dice Maximum) for all talents, and stack with synergy granted from Primal Warrior for Rage - the "double dipping" is the benefit for the cost of the feat.
EDIT: I thought I saw where I read the intent incorrectly, and then confused myself again. I read Practiced Fighter interacting with Primal Warrior like so: Your fighter level (+4 but limited by Hit Dice) provides strong synergy with barbarian levels for rage. Normally this would run afoul of the synergy feedback loops, but Practiced fighter explicitly says that it stacks. *Possible Understanding* - the feat says it stacks with features improving effective fighter level, not that it stacks with synergy contributed by fighter levels to another class.It says nothing about improving effective fighter level for the purpose of increasing synergy with other classes, implying that it does not do so. Is that where I read this wrong? The benefit of the feat allowing you to increase fighter level for talents (So that Primal Warrior reads fighter level+4) is what runs afoul of the feedback loop rule, and that aspect has no text calling out an exception?
I do understand the desire for simpler math, and it may be worth putting some text in the rage feature limiting the free rage from overlapping Morale bonuses to qualifying effects which are non-continuous and higher than a cantrip; There are still a few interactions such as at will morale bonuses or the Axefighter combat feat which could be a problem; with Axefighter, as long as you dropped one enemy per 2-4 rounds you would have infinite rage. Of course, that's also a fairly standard theme of a raging barbarian, so perhaps it was intended? I was interested in how Overexertion as a morale bonus would interact with Rage. Overexertion with Guarded Attributs would be effectively infinite Rage without much downside (besides massive damage at the end), given a move action every few rounds. (EDIT: Given the way Magical Talent and Magical Talent Array work with Concentration ranks, any 1-4th level spell that grants a morale bonus would eventually be at-will.)
Thank you for your patience - I like game systems, and especially finding odd or cool interactions. Not necessarily power gaming or finding the most broken ways to build Uber Epic Mythic Level 20 World Destroyer, just ones I think are cool. Finding out that a character that was already themed around Power over Shadow and an Amber-esque fighter with Threat Zone could end up with a few effective levels of Cleric with the Darkness domain made me really happy with the Knightly Order options.
I can see how it reads that way, and since it's capped at +4 levels, it probably wouldn't break the game to allow it. Practiced Fighter and Practiced Rage were originally intended for monsters with a few levels in fighter or barbarian; allowing them to PCs is still something I'd like to do, but clearly I need to more carefully codify what they count towards and what they don't.
Re: At-will rage: At some point, if you intentionally build a character with that end in mind, this should probably be possible. I generally don't run more than 1-2 big fights per game day; most of the PCs' efforts are usually geared towards figuring out the bad guys' strengths and weaknesses so that they can actually survive those 1-2 fights. The much-derided "fifteen minute adventuring day" has never been a problem for me because I intentionally design for it!
So if I am understanding correctly practiced feats/ talents would apply after all other calculations and still cap at total levels correct?
That's how I'd thought of them. Recent discussion is convincing me I need to think some more about how they apply, and clarify the wording accordingly. The +4/max level cap leads me to think that simply applying them after all the class synergy stuff, and not worrying about those interactions, would probably be fine.
So if I am understanding correctly practiced feats/ talents would apply after all other calculations and still cap at total levels correct?
Yeah, the more I think about the more I feel like I need to include an "order of operations" like with magic item pricing. For example:
Step 1: Check class level
Step 2: Add direct class synergy from other classes
Step 3: Add effects of "Practiced X," observing level cap.
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And or say that synergy is only applied via real class levels and never via pseudo class levels?
I will add that a line like Firewarrior suggests would have made things a lot clearer when I was trying to understand the situation - it is spelled out in the text if you follow through everything in the feats, talents, and synergy pages, but was not apparent to me the way a flat out statement in the feat text or a small header on the talents would have been.
Still confused though, as to whether Primal Warrior synergy from barbarian levels would count towards the fighter level for Knightly Order's of the Raven 15th level ability giving spell casting as a Cleric of fighter level - 14. It is not itself synergy - it's a straight ability to cast as a low level cleric - but seems like it might run into the double-dipping Kirth is trying to avoid, especially if an actual level of cleric is in there somewhere so the talent gives weak theurgy instead. EDIT: If that is the case, perhaps the talents/lores/etc need a disclaimer somewhere that synergy towards talents/lores/etc can never increase the effective class level towards synergy with any non-class features? As an example, if a Ranger Lore gives synergy with rogue levels and another gives synergy with Druid levels, any feat (like Practiced X) or lore which gives synergy towards Ranger level for lores do NOT apply towards the Ranger lores which synergize with other classes? END EDIT.
If I understand this correctly, Practiced Fighter would not add to Primal Warrior for the purpose of increasing the fighters level for synergy with Rage - the Fighter Level +4 bit bolded in my last post. It would however apply to the Knightly Order talent for the purpose of the cleric level determination, as well as the explicit weapon training increase from Practiced Fighter.
Does that sound right Kirth?
EDIT 2: Now I am confused again. I realize this was just a quick thought, but here is how I read it:
Step 1: Check class level
Step 2: Add direct class synergy from other classes
Step 3: Add effects of "Practiced X," observing level cap.
Fighter Level:
Step 1: Fighter level 17.
Step 2: Fighter level 20 for the purpose of non-Primal Warrior talents - all well and good. Would apply to Knightly Orders 15th level ability.
Step 3: Add Practiced Fighter. Fighter level is already capped out for all but Primal Warrior - Primal Warrior now treats the fighter levels as 17+3(4, but capped at 20) - which does not actually do anything yet - plus full weapon training progression.
For Barbarian:
Step 1: Barbarian Level 3
Step 2: Strong synergy from Primal Warrior: Without Practiced fighter, gives +13 Barbarian levels for rage. WITH Practiced Fighter, the effective fighter level is 20 for +14, which hits Primal Rage.
At least, that's how I read the order of operations.
Semi Related Question: Primal Warrior says this: You can also learn rage powers in the place of fighter talents.
Should that have any scaling or gating? Can you choose Primal powers? How did Spellbreaker Greater Superstition, and Aura of Superstition change now that Superstition is a class feature?
Semi Related Question: Primal Warrior says this: You can also learn rage powers in the place of fighter talents. Should that have any scaling or gating? Can you choose Primal powers?
The limitations for a single-classed barbarian still apply. You can only gain primal rage powers if you're capable of a primal rage.
I will add that a line like Firewarrior suggests would have made things a lot clearer when I was trying to understand the situation - it is spelled out in the text if you follow through everything in the feats, talents, and synergy pages, but was not apparent to me the way a flat out statement in the feat text or a small header on the talents would have been.
Still confused though, as to whether Primal Warrior synergy from barbarian levels would count towards the fighter level for Knightly Order's of the Raven 15th level ability giving spell casting as a Cleric of fighter level - 14. It is not itself synergy - it's a straight ability to cast as a low level cleric - but seems like it might run into the double-dipping Kirth is trying to avoid, especially if an actual level of cleric is in there somewhere so the talent gives weak theurgy instead. EDIT: If that is the case, perhaps the talents/lores/etc need a disclaimer somewhere that synergy towards talents/lores/etc can never increase the effective class level towards synergy with any non-class features? As an example, if a Ranger Lore gives synergy with rogue levels and another gives synergy with Druid levels, any feat (like Practiced X) or lore which gives synergy towards Ranger level for lores do NOT apply towards the Ranger lores which synergize with other classes? END EDIT.
If I understand this correctly, Practiced Fighter would not add to Primal Warrior for the purpose of increasing the fighters level for synergy with Rage - the Fighter Level +4 bit bolded in my last post. It would however apply to the Knightly Order talent for the purpose of the cleric level determination, as well as the explicit weapon training increase from Practiced Fighter.
Does that sound right Kirth?
EDIT 2: Now I am confused again. I realize this was just a quick thought, but here is how I read it...
Recent discussion is convincing me I need to think some more about how they apply, and clarify the wording accordingly.
Is it intended for a rogue to be able to coup de grace on every sneak attack he successfully makes via Killing stroke?
This seems obscene as a rogue 1/fighter x (or even pure rogue) could trivially mince everything that isn't immune to precision damage.
Also can Eldritch Blast scale off of your highest available SLA (like say via magical talent) like a [Reserve] feat can?
Is it intended for a rogue to be able to coup de grace on every sneak attack he successfully makes via Killing stroke? This seems obscene as a rogue 1/fighter x (or even pure rogue) could trivially mince everything that isn't immune to precision damage.
Also can Eldritch Blast scale off of your highest available SLA (like say via magical talent) like a [Reserve] feat can?
1. Sneak attack at BAB +1 doesn't magically make people helpless, you're never getting BAB +21 equivalent except by spending time, and Staggering Strike has a save. Is there some other exploit I'm missing?
2. Yes.
Benefit: You can perform a coup de grâce against a helpless opponent as a standard action.
Synergy: You can add the effects of any one strike you know (see “Combat Feats, Strikes” in Chapter 5) to any sneak attack that successfully deals damage, even if the normal activating conditions are not met. You cannot add Vital Strike to sneak attacks in this manner, however. Also, this synergy does not apply to sneak attacks made with splash weapons using the Grenadier talent (Appendix C).
I read the effects of killing stroke as Coup de grace the target under X conditions, rogue sneak attack states I can ignore those conditions.
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Kirth a quick question on sneak attack. Under synergy it's says that one strike feat even if the normal activating conditions ae not met. So for killing stroke does this allow a rogue to force a CdG save on any sneak attack?No, because the BAB-based scaling of the feat still applies. (Needing "base attack bonus +X" is a prerequisite, not an "activating condition.") To force a CdG on a sneak attack, you'd need to be at least 21st level (which the system doesn't really support), or else spend a number of rounds studying the opponent before attacking (which duplicates the assassin's death attack, BTW).
That said, a 16th level rogue can be forcing a CdG every other round...
I'll quote Kirth from when I asked a while back.
Thank's Talonhawke.
My confusion stems from my interpretation being the effects of the feat are Coup de grace. And the activation requirements being Standard action and target is under the following condition (BAB changes which conditions are applicable but if you're ignoring activation req's then that's irrelevant).
So basically with that quote you posted the condition of the target is not an activating condition of the strike feat. (I find this confusing because even in the text you quoted it seems like it might be although it might be in the context of an attack using Staggering strike).
That also makes the critical focus synergy confusing as it's wording is similar to sneak attack's "add the effects of" . Would that mean if you crit an opponent under de-buff X/Y/Z (instead of just CDG ing them) it forces the save or die?
Here's the text I've been referencing:
Benefit: You can perform a coup de grâce against a helpless opponent as a standard action.
- If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you can perform a coup de grâce against a stunned opponent as if he or she were helpless.
- If your base attack bonus is +11 or higher, you can perform a coup de grâce against a cowering or dazed opponent as if he or she were helpless. In addition, when you hit with a melee attack and reduce your opponent to –1 or fewer hit points, you can force that opponent to succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 15 + the damage your attack dealt) or die (this supersedes the Deadly Finish feat, from Ultimate Combat).
- If your base attack bonus is +16 or higher, you can also perform a coup de grâce against a staggered opponent as if he or she were helpless.
- If your effective base attack bonus is +21 or higher (see below), you can also perform a coup de grâce against a grappled or flat-footed opponent as if he or she were helpless.
Synergy
- If you also have the Critical Focus and Improved Critical feats, you can apply the effects of this feat to a confirmed critical (even if the attack is made as part of a full attack). This use supersedes the Devastating Critical feat, from the 3.5 Edition System Reference Document, “Epic Feats.” It also replicates the Gunslinger’s “death’s shot” class feature, from Ultimate Combat.
- If you have the Staggering Strike feat, apply the results of that feat to the opponent before referencing whether the Killing Stroke applies (this is a specific exception to the general rule of non-stacking of Strike effects).
- If you have the Improved Grapple feat (q.v.), each round you maintain a pin against an opponent counts as one round of studying, for purposes of activating this feat. This supersedes
the Reaping Mauler’s “devastating grapple” prestige class feature, from Complete Warrior.
- If you have at least 6 ranks in Bluff as a class skill, whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 or fewer hit points (whether using a Killing Stroke or not), you can also make a Bluff check to demoralize all enemies within 30 feet as a free action. Enemies that cannot see both you and the enemy you struck are unaffected.
Personally I'll probably add a line
Except as noted above this feat cannot be activated using Grit, Sneak Attack, Inquisitor's Judgement or similar abilities unless the target is also afflicted with the necessary condition or your effective BAB is greater than 20.
Which would gate such shenanigans to level 16+ at the soonest (when feat mastery can bump you over +21) and diehard has also is at the point where it can make you immune.
Benefit: You can perform a coup de grâce against a helpless opponent as a standard action.Synergy: You can add the effects of any one strike you know (see “Combat Feats, Strikes” in Chapter 5) to any sneak attack that successfully deals damage, even if the normal activating conditions are not met. You cannot add Vital Strike to sneak attacks in this manner, however. Also, this synergy does not apply to sneak attacks made with splash weapons using the Grenadier talent (Appendix C).I read the effects of killing stroke as Coup de grace the target under X conditions, rogue sneak attack states I can ignore those conditions.
No; you're trying to ignore prerequisites there, not activating conditions. Activating conditions are spelled out in the preamble to [Strikes] - standard action (or sometimes full-round action) attack, or confirmed crit with Improved Critical, or on a grapple with Improved Grapple, or AoO with Combat Reflexes.
Kirth don't know if you ever looked at the path of war stuff over at the pfsrd but they added some of the other schools if you need any inspiration for more strikes and stances.
This was mentioned back in August, but I don't think it was ever answered: The files I have show different uses-per-day for Magical Talent and Magical Talent Array.
Magical Talent has 2x=1/day, 3x=2/day, 4x=3/day, 5x=at will;
Magical Talent Array says to use the Racial Spell-like Ability rules, which say you get 1/day to start with, 3/day with 4x ranks, and at-will with 6x ranks.
The two tracks conflict somewhat, so which is your preferred or intended uses-per-day?
Even though one is a extension of the other having 2 different tracks is fine considering one is adding several abilities over the course of things. It is understandable that it might cause it to slow down some.
But how does it work? Do you get to use the original SLA 2/day at 3x ranks, but the others are stuck at 1/day until you reach 4x ranks when everything's usable 3/day? Or do they all use the racial SLA track? (I would assume it's the former.)
It really just feels kind of wonky, and I figured it might be something that was overlooked more than an intentional decision, but I wanted to check.
I'm not Kirth but i think I know how it works:
You gain a suite of spell-like abilities following the rules for racial spell-like abilities in Chapter 7. Your Magical Talent spell-like ability becomes the spell-like ability of the appropriate level in the array; the others must follow some theme, built around the existing spell-like ability, but are otherwise subject to your choice, conditional on referee approval.
I believe the first progression track ceases to matter as that spell like ability is then subsumed into the array. Because it get superseded by Magical Talent array Magical Talent's progression track no longer applies.
This was mentioned back in August, but I don't think it was ever answered: The files I have show different uses-per-day for Magical Talent and Magical Talent Array.
Magical Talent has 2x=1/day, 3x=2/day, 4x=3/day, 5x=at will;
Magical Talent Array says to use the Racial Spell-like Ability rules, which say you get 1/day to start with, 3/day with 4x ranks, and at-will with 6x ranks.
The two tracks conflict somewhat, so which is your preferred or intended uses-per-day?
Those have been standardized now; use 2x, 4x, and 6x for both.
Cool, thanks for answering! (...even if the munchkin in me likes the other track better!)
Shield and Cover bonuses are the same bonus type now does that mean precise shot let's you ignore opponents shields (at +11 bab)?
Shield and Cover bonuses are the same bonus type now does that mean precise shot let's you ignore opponents shields (at +11 bab)?
Yep.
How does that interact with Block Arrow? (Deflect an arrow with a shield (effective immunity to arrows at level 16 with combat reflexes)). I Assume not at all but just checking
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How does that interact with Block Arrow? (Deflect an arrow with a shield (effective immunity to arrows at level 16 with combat reflexes)). I Assume not at all but just checking
Rock - paper - scissors. Precise Shot ignores the shield; Block Arrow turns the tables and lets the shield-user ignore the arrow. I unfortunately have yet to see any combat in which combatants had both feats and used them against each other, but the anticipation for a time when a Precise-Shot guy gets his arrows blocked by a shield is still exciting to me.
Kirth,
I've been thinking about ways to trigger Dimensional Agility, and it seems like the lowest level options are the rangers Dimension Door as a 3rd level spell; some of the cleric domains giving a short range teleport option at 8th; and the magical talent/array feat, which would be 1/day until 16th level and then 3/day total. For a non-ranger/cleric, it seems to be very limited in usability, and comes online very late. Any suggestions?
I have thought of/found the following:
- Integrating the shadow jaunt maneuver from Tome of Battle as a 1/encounter SLA with a full round action recharge, maybe? Either a feat or talent investment to get it?
- Alternatively, the Pathfinder Wizard Teleportation Sub School Shift power as a feat or talent?
- Before the change to Skill Focus away from virtual ranks, Magical Talent Array +Skill Focus Concentration would have allowed Dimension door at will at 16th level, but thats out now (From the Ranger list it is at-will @18th level, but that is not allowed since Ranger is not a primary caster, correct?)
- Likewise, when Magical Talent was 5x for at will, 20th level would have allowed at will DD (now it needs 24) It also does not come online until 7th level for most of these options.
- A use activated item doesn't work because the feat requires that you be the one with the ability to use the teleportation - RAW intent is for it to be an inherent ability, I think.
- Greater Dimension Door from the Spell Compedium would work multiple times an encounter, at the cost of only having it 1/day up to 20th level and then 3/day at 20th (Via Magical Talent Array).
- Last but certainly not least, the spells Dimensional Hop and Dimensional Step from the PHBII would be perfect; I do not know why they were not continued in Pathfinder, or if they fit the desired power level of the rest of your modified rules, though
Unrelated: Racial spell like abilities and the Magical Talent Array do not call out that the selections must come from one of the primary casters spell lists. Is that assumed from Magical Talent?
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I'll have to look over spells and such to see if there is any other decent options. Do keep in mind rogues can get shadow hand manuvers.
As for Magical array I run it that it's from a 9 level list unless it only appears on a smaller list.
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+1 to the 9th level cast lists only
What I've done on another character is make Dimension Door a 3rd level spell by applying the Reach Spell Meta-magic Feat (Long to Medium Range.) I find this isn't an issue given that you are capped at 2x your speed anyways, you might even be able to work a close range (2nd level) dimension door.
There's also the Dimensional Jaunt Reserve feat which lets you teleport 5 feet per reserve spell level (So 5 feet / 2 levels)
You might be able to qualify with an item (maybe? feat doesn't specify it has to be a spell per say)
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Comments:
1. I've been using Dimensional Jaunt, per Firewarrior44. And, yes, rogues using Shadow Hand and/or skill tricks can qualify, per Talonhawke.
2. There's no reason not to apply metamagic to [teleportation] spells! In fact, I tried starting with a "basic" teleportation spell and deriving the whole subschool using metamagic (see spoiler below).
3. Per the consensus, 9-level spell lists are more or less assumed as the standard, especially for PCs. (I've occasionally deviated from that in designing monsters, but only when the array has a very tight "theme" more appropriate to a 6/7-level caster list.)
Teleportation (unformatted):
School: Conjuration [teleportation]
Level: arcane 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: standard
Range: touch (subject)/close (teleport range)
Target: creature or object (up to 50 lbs.) touched
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will neg.; Spell Resistance yes
Description: teleports target to a specified location within close range.
Improvement: metamagic.
BESTIARY UPDATE:
I've converted essentially all animals, vermin, plants, aberrations, constructs, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders I'd ever have a use for, and then some. I'm converting not just Paizo (Bestiary 1-5) monsters, but also ones from 0-3rd edition D&D.
I finally figured out how to do dragons and oozes, and am making big headway on those. I think I have fey mostly figured out, but haven't converted many yet and probably still have some bugs to work out.
Undead are still proving to be difficult, if only because I want to come up with something better than simply designing a new template from scratch for each type, but I also don't want a generic "undead" class.
Oh boy exciting stuff.
Will the Vampire and Lich remain races?
Perhaps for undead you could do something akin to Animated Objects with a modular point buy type system?
Awesome news man. Love what you have done so far with it.
Will the Vampire and Lich remain races?
That will certainly remain an option.
Oh, is this still being updated? Can I get a link to the most recent version, with the Bestiary & Spell lists included? I may soon be a GM for my very first campaign in Roll20, and I kinda wanted to try Kirthfinder out.
Also, what do you think of combining this system with Spheres of Power? With it's more abstract and piecemeal magic system, getting interesting effects (such as teleportation, from the previous discussion) can be done as early as level 1.
I have a copy of the last batch of Bestiary files that i can email to you. (Not the ones Kirth just announced)
The most recent batch of game files can be found Here in this post
Oh, is this still being updated? Can I get a link to the most recent version, with the Bestiary & Spell lists included?
The Bestiary stuff isn't ready for release. Also, the master docs have art for every monster, meaning that the file sizes would be prohibitively large.
Also, what do you think of combining this system with Spheres of Power? With its more abstract and piecemeal magic system, getting interesting effects (such as teleportation, from the previous discussion) can be done as early as level 1.
If SoP had come out before I started working on the magic system, I would have done so. I'm unwilling to invest in the book, demolish the existing work, and start over at this point, however -- I have neither the time nor the inclination. That said, if someone else wants to take that particular ball and run with it, more power to them.
I've been looking over the Barbarian class, and it's pretty awesome (as are the Fighter and Monk classes, awesome all around, really).
But I kinda question the use of Indomitable Will. The ability gives a saving throw against a list of conditions in order to suppress them for the duration of the Rage. The problem with that is that the level before you get Indomitable Will, you get Mighty Rage, which basically already suppresses all of the listed conditions (if I have read over the Conditions from Chapter 1 correctly). It seems a bit redundant. If a Barbarian suffers from one of these conditions before entering rage, does that condition not get suppressed?
I suppose the part about making saves against poison and disease is somewhat useful, but the rest seems...weird.
If you make the Indomitable will save though the affliction in question ends, opposed to resuming when your rage stops.
If you make the Indomitable will save though the affliction in question ends, opposed to resuming when your rage stops.
This is only true of poison and disease, all other conditions are merely suppressed for the duration of rage, despite Mighty Rage effectively already doing so.
Indomitable Will (Ex): Starting at 14th level, once per rage, you may attempt a new saving throw against one of the following conditions that may be affecting you: blinded, confused, dazzled,deafened, nauseated, or sickened. If you succeed at the save, the effect is suppressed for the duration of your rage. You also may attempt a new saving throw if poisoned or suffering from a disease; a successful save counts against those required for a cure, but a failed save has no ill effect.If you are affected by an enchantment spell or effect while not in a rage, you can choose to activate your rage as an immediate action so as to delay the onset of the effects (assuming you have rounds of rage remaining for that day).
The entire first part is not just redundant, but it weakens an earlier ability by attaching a save to something I assumed was automatic:
Mighty Rage (Ex): Starting at 13th level, during a rage you are temporarily immune to minor, moderate, severe, and critical conditions. These conditions are not removed; they are merely suspended until your rage ends. Also, when an improved rage ends, your delayed damage pool is automatically reduced by three-fourths before being applied as damage to you.
Minor: Dazzled [Sensory]
Moderate: Deafened [Sensory]
Severe: Blinded [Sensory]Minor: Sickened [Affliction]
Severe: Nauseated [Affliction]Severe: Confused [Mind-affecting]
So if we already suppress the effects of minor, moderate and severe afflictions (which really, Greater Rage already covers at level 9), then I don't really see the need to make a save just to suppress a smaller subset of these very same conditions.
The last part kinda just seems like a weaker version of "Instantaneous Rage," (mainly the fact that it only applies to a small subset of possible conditions, instead of all conditions and for any reason, like say an Initiative boost). Maybe it would be better to just give Barbarians Instantaneous Rage for level 14?
Good to see some free Kirthfinder stuff. ;)
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Ahh I see I see we're looking at different versions.
The Barbarian has been updated / unchained see here for the new class chart.
But yea indomitable will now removes the effect in question:
Starting at 15th level, once per rage, you may attempt a second saving throw against any condition temporarily suppressed by your rage; if successful, that condition ends.
If you are affected by an enchantment spell or effect while not in a rage, you can choose to activate your rage as an immediate action so as to delay the onset of the effects (assuming you have rounds of rage remaining for that day).
Ah, even better.
EDIT:
Wait a minute. Does this mean Barbarian no longer gives a bonus to stats? Seems kinda like a huge nerf now, actually. Especially when you consider things that applied off of your stats, like Canny Defense or Insightful Strike.
Also, Furious Counterstroke yet again seems like it got nerfed. In the earlier version, it had great synnergy with the Delayed damage pool mechanics. Previously, you could gain the damage bonus as long as your health was equal to or less than your DDP. If you had a Primal Rage, your DDP was emptied out completely and you could maintain a decent amount of health, as opposed to now, where it only activates when you are below 0 and are using Diehard. It's even worse compared to the version I saw originally on the triOmegazero google sites page, where you would gain a bonus depending on how full your DDP was. I liked that version the best, IMHO.
That's not to say that there aren't also buffs, of course. The Vital Strike on every hit damage boost seems a little gratoitous though.