The only way that an Int-based fighter is ever going to be viable is if game designers start making abilities which are beneficial to an Int-based fighter regardless of the existence of wizards.
The Warblade had some of these.
If there are going to be classes at all, some niches would be nice, otherwise why have classes at all? You might as well make a classless system and make pre-built templates. With a class system, going outside of the niche is what multiclassing is all about.
That said, I think some of the problem is that while mundane classes need the right stats and skill points to do certain things, magic users can sidestep those limitation via spells. For example, noticing things requires wisdom and ranks in perception to be good at for mundane classes, but magic users with a wisdom of 7 and no ranks in perception can cast a detect spell and it's all good. Mundane classes require charisma and ranks in diplomacy and bluff to get people do things for them, a magic user can just enchant people or summon a monster to attack for them. While feats must follow a linear progression, spells can be learned whenever / however. That fighter worked 4 levels of focus to be really good with the greatsword; The wizard learns to fly without learning to levitate, learns Summon Monster III without learning Summon Monster II. The wizard can learn new spells with time and money, but can the fighter learn new fighting tricks (combat feats) with time and money?
I like the archetypes CONCEPT but the execution is flawed; too much focus, not enough "oomph".
If the archetypes effectively gave over the top abilities at high levels, while ALSO giving a well-rounded warrior build, it would work better.
For example, take the poor Crossbow specialist.
The abilities listed should all be handed out by level 10, along with enough feats and abilities to make him strong in melee, mounted, and unarmed combat, and having the skills to use downtime and RP time effectively.
Then, in the high levels, all the limitations of the special abilities should drop away, and some innovative and powerful abilities should be added, both in and out of combat.
For example, crafting. A Crossbowman should be able to craft superior crossbows or bolts (which would be exotic to anyone else) which give special features or bonuses.
Another example would be applying the science of crossbows toward other things, like trapmaking or engineering.
Then there would be all the sorts of things which any elite veteran should be able to do - sense danger, anticipate attacks, countermove, lead/train troops.
I will try the "one hand master" fighter archetype with improved unarmed strike and crane style... nice duelist.
|
One thing I've been looking at lately, both in terms of balance but also flavor, is to look at spell casting as a universal ability, that one simply needs the stats for.
Thus, structure it in such a way that anyone with the right mental stat can cast spells via the bonus spell chart. The spell level would be scaled out over the 20 levels.
Thus, a fighter who has an Int 12 and a Wis 12 could cast one 1st level arcane and one divine spell per day.
Basically, if a wizard can buff up his Strength to 20+, pick up a weapon and start hacking people to bits, then a smart/wise fighter ought to be able to read a book or call for his god to help him also.
There are some rules to get massaged out of this, mostly dealing with seeing how spellcasters could abuse this open ended magical use. You could spin it that casters, with their heavy investment in one form of magic, can't spread themselves out.
Still, ability scores and the bonus spells from those scores do create really tight caps on wonky effects. If someone wanted to cast wish and miracle, they'd need 28's in two stats, plus be 17th level, which isn't exactly an easy way to mess with the system.
For the most part what it would allow is martial characters have to have some utility if they decided to raise a mental stat up.
On a thematic level I just like the idea because it makes the magic in the world this accessible and manifest element that anyone who's got the right stuff can tap into.
In my home games I already allow players to spend gold at the temple to get low level aid type spells from their gods. It seems silly to me that in a pantheistic universe where the gods want followers that they'd restrict their power base with just those who have the right stats and are willing to focus on being a divine caster. Plus, I just like the added feel of having players in critical moments, regardless of their class, call out to their god for aid and suddenly have a cure light wounds or bless tossed on them.
Doing all of the above doesn't...
Just to get it straight, a level 9 fighter with a natural intelligence of 14 and +6 circlet of intelligence would get to cast 2 first level spells, 1 second level, 1 third level, 1 fourth level and 1 fifth level spell, while in full plate and without problems?
What he would have to do to learn them?A level 17 fighter would need a starting intelligence of 17, +5 inherent and +6 circlet to get wish.
Or to circumvent the armour problem, a agnostic 9th level fighter with 14 wisdom and a circlet would be capable to raise the dead, and at level 7th he would be capable to reincarnate people.
What was the level of the spell to avoid the ageing penalties while keeping the bonuses?
Let's see: middle age +1 to all mental stats, -1 to all physical.
Age Resistance, LesserSchool transmutation; Level alchemist 3, druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
Components V, S
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range personal
Target you
Duration 24 hoursYou ignore the physical detriments of being middle-aged. This spell does not cause you to look younger, nor does it prevent you from dying of old age, but as long as the spell is in effect, you ignore the –1 penalties to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution that accrue once you become middle-aged. You retain the age-related bonuses to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma while under the effects of this spell. Additional penalties that you accrue upon becoming old or venerable apply in full.
Then there is the little play with reincarnation: I will lose my malus to physical stats for age, but retain the bonuses to mental stats (but I will not get them again).
Hmmm: with a starting 14 in intelligence or wisdom I will be capable to cast level 9th spells.
(14 base +3 age, +5 inherent, +6 item = 28)
If I get to "cast" alchemist spells it will be even simpler.
Good luck writing a 100 pages tome of rules trying to make it work.
|
|
Or to circumvent the armour problem, a agnostic 9th level fighter with 14 wisdom and a circlet would be capable to raise the dead, and at level 7th he would be capable to reincarnate people.With wisdom you do have to pick a god to worship, the character is after all channeling divine energy, not just coming up with it on their own.
But yes, if a fighter was so inclined to boost intelligence, either at the start or spend lots of gold on circlets and the like then they could end up casting some really powerful spells.
As far as I can see it isn't going to break the game. There is a tight limits on daily castings and your draining your wealth to boost mental stats, or picking up scrolls and whatnot, along with needing to boost spellcraft as much as possible.
Well:
- oracles and inquisitors don't need to chose a deity. Outside Golarion clerics don't need to select a deity, they can chose to follow a principle. Fighter: "I am a follower of the battle principle".- when you can get a +3 to all your mental stats thanks to age and then remove the physical stat malus with spells or reincarnation (and getting a possible further increase in physical stats if you get a lucky reincarnation roll) it will become a problem.
- what is the relevant level of a arcane spell? When it appear on the wizard, magus, bard, alchemist, summoner or witch liat?
same thing for the divine spells?
- as I now have access to all the spell lists (as least if I am a non spell user, as you want to bar spell users classes from this option) I can use all the magic items without the need of UMD? After all now all the spells are on my spell lists?
- as I have access to all spell lists I can craft magic items without problems?
- you have broken most of the "semi" spell casting classes one way or the other. The paladin get bonus sorcerer/bard/oracle spells based on his charisma? Or not as he already get spells? Bot options unbalance the class.
The bard? Inquisitor? Magus? ecc.
- monk: his primary stat is wisdom, he get bonus spells for that characteristic, wis bonus items help him several ways .....
Almost as good as having a cleric in the party.
Wisdom 20 and he can cover the need for most crucial spells.
My initial assessment that you would need 100 pages of home rules was too lenient.
You will need a book of the size of the core rulebook to cover all the angles.
Your idea seem nice when compared with current builds, but as soon as a number cruncher or a competent munckin get his hands on it he can find enough loopholes to make you mad.
|
|
I wouldn't want anything that ends up just tacking a 'magical' effect onto a warrior. I would rather have the warrior end up like Conan (Arnie) or Aragorn (LotR movie) rather than say Legolas (LotR movie). So no way a 'super hero' type warrior.
For balance I would reintroduce the idea that if a caster is hit while spell casting, which is assumed to be from the start of the round until their initiative, they automatically lose their spell.
2 cents,
S.
There's an error of logic here. Warrior don't use magic, so they can't interact with them.
But magic interacts with warriors :)
So, it's not strange for a non magic char to use some of his ability against magic, specially if it has a physical manifestation.
Something like the feat do parry a ray with your shield.
Why not a feat to dispell, that requires maybe a piece of cold iron?
And what about armor in cold iron?
A shield can help you against a dragon's breath?
Why you can't take a feat to destroy force effects?
And so on. If magic exists, you can interact even if you can't use it.
|
|
I wouldn't want anything that ends up just tacking a 'magical' effect onto a warrior. I would rather have the warrior end up like Conan (Arnie) or Aragorn (LotR movie) rather than say Legolas (LotR movie). So no way a 'super hero' type warrior.
For balance I would reintroduce the idea that if a caster is hit while spell casting, which is assumed to be from the start of the round until their initiative, they automatically lose their spell.
2 cents,
S.
It don't work with the current initiative system.
If you pretend that the guy spellcasting should specify what he is doing at the start of the round, the other guys should do the same.
If not you are introducing a very bad distortion to the game flow.
So no way a 'super hero' type warrior.
That's easy to accomplish -- play E6, or some variant in which you don't ever reach double-digit levels. Because an 11th level caster essentially bends the laws of reality to his whim, expecting a non-superhero to be anything other than his caddie or slave isn't going to work.
At level 6 it's possible for a fighter to fall 150ft and walk away with no permanent damage, and carry a 100lb load for a full day and not be fatigued. So it would have to be E2 maybe. And you would have to ban rangers, paladins and barbarians.
..stuff.. The fact is that the higher level you get, the more ridiculous the power level gets, so instead of pigeonholing martial characters into being 'mundane', they should develop into what are essentially superheroes as they level up.
I contend that they already do.
Martial characters are which? Paladins? Barbarians?, Monks? Rogues?All of these are plenty powerful at 15th level +.
But most in this thread seem to have an issue with the fighter.
So the question really has come across as what should high level fighters
be able to do.
To answer that you first have to ask what can low fighters do and what is their role in the party.
Fighters are for fight.. sure you can customize them in a myriad of different ways.. and those options should remain. But when figuring out new abilities for higher levels you should focus on improving what they already do.
Not trying to turn them into a different class.
Not crying about your personal opinion that casters are too powerful.
Not whining that you don't have enough options outside of combat.
More then half the "suggestions" in this thread do nothing but step or stomp on the other classes toes.
Leadership, armies, cohorts all of that is classic and makes sense but it's handled by a feat. Not every fighter will be interested in it either. So to make it a class ability is a waste.
Fighters are masters of weapons and armor... For this they gain weapon training and armor mastery.. So expand them..
Weapon training.. something like proficiency in exotic weapons makes sense, bonuses in any already know or the option to swap out the feats spent on them at lower levels (much like spontaneous casters can swap spells as they level)
Armor mastery.. eventually the DR should count towards spells. Increase in value and reflect back the Dr's worth of damage from directly targeted spells on a successful save. Or armor could start offering resistance to certain elements. OR both.
A class specific ability for fighter and a few other martial based classes could be continuing the bass attack progression into more attacks. You could cap some classes at 4 or less attacks per round but allow fighter to continue into 5, 6 or 7 attacks.
Paired with this as they level their iterative attacks could become part of the standard action rather then a full attack action. So while a 25th level fighter might have a Base attack bonus of
+25/+20/+15/+10/+5 he can use more then just the first in his standard attack and still move. The amount of attacks considered part of the standard action could increase as they level past 20.
All of these are fighter themed ideas that don't try to diminish the other classes.
|
|
It don't work with the current initiative system.
If you pretend that the guy spellcasting should specify what he is doing at the start of the round, the other guys should do the same.
If not you are introducing a very bad distortion to the game flow.
You are right it does cause issues. Without retro-engineering the initiative system I guess the quick fix is just insert the auto-lose spell? I'm not a huge fan of the current ease of spell casting. I think part of the unbalancing issues of caster vs non-casters. The idea of robe wearing casters running around in the middle of a melee casting left, right and center grates.
S.
|
|
At level 6 it's possible for a fighter to fall 150ft and walk away with no permanent damage, and carry a 100lb load for a full day and not be fatigued. So it would have to be E2 maybe. And you would have to ban rangers, paladins and barbarians.
To be more specific I mean manga-superhero with anti-grav attacks and the like. My point was the fighters abilities should be based on weapon attacks without resorting to silly addons to attempt to balance them out in things they can do. The crit feats of blinding, sickening, etc I see as mechanically things tacked on to give the fighter the ability to effect an opponent 'like' a spell caster. The D&D Rule Cyclopedia with its Weapon Mastery had perhaps the best attempt at making fighters interesting.
S.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do you think the stuntman slid down a dying creature, unrehearsed, while firing arrows which hit moving targets in a chaotic environment such as a battlefield?
I believe a collection of CGI pixels slid down another collection of pixels while firing more pixels in a structured environment consisting of pixels.
What? That's all action movies look like to me now.
Because that's all they are with rare exception. I don't have the shot of him sliding down the creature available right now, but I bet if I reviewed it, I'd find that it wasn't a stuntman, but just a computer generation.
That's why I love "Death Proof." If you can put up with 2/3 of the movie being meaningless chit-chat, the last third is some of the best live-action car chase footage ever filmed.
If my fighter hits 10th level and can't do what Zoe Bell does, then we KNOW there's a problem with the system!
Lool, no, no, no... this tread is gone.
Not only far from roleplay but even from game mechanics.
Warrior has not such problems.
|
|
So no way a 'super hero' type warrior.That's easy to accomplish -- play E6, or some variant in which you don't ever reach double-digit levels. Because an 11th level caster essentially bends the laws of reality to his whim, expecting a non-superhero to be anything other than his caddie or slave isn't going to work.
I completely agree with this sentiment. A character who is above 6th level has left the limits of our reality, regardless of their class, and their abilities should reflect that. If you have a problem with this, play E6 or a similar variant.
By 11th level all characters show up as legends under the Legend Lore spell. Legends do things for which the very suggestion of its possibility scares fully grown adults. No-one wants to think about the fact that someone existed that could rip a giant in half with his bare hands. At this point you've gone beyond vanilla superhero, stretching the suspension of disbelief, and into the comic-book superhero who outright shatters the illusion that this is the real world.
By 16-17th level the average caster can do everything short of change the past, and might even be able to do that (though not in a controlled fashion). By this point martial/mundane characters should be challenging Superman, and as such should themselves have a wide array of seemingly over-the-top abilities to use, including several things that seem to be magical in nature to some extent.
The Barbarian follows this pattern pretty well. They push the limits of what is possible and at 6th level they can potentially do things like shatter a spell with their bare hand. At 12th level even attacking one that is already hostile can be a bad idea (Come and Get Me) and by 17th level they seem to be completely unstoppable, throwing out inhuman abilities just for the fun of it (Tireless + once/rage powers).
|
|
It don't work with the current initiative system.
If you pretend that the guy spellcasting should specify what he is doing at the start of the round, the other guys should do the same.
If not you are introducing a very bad distortion to the game flow.You are right it does cause issues. Without retro-engineering the initiative system I guess the quick fix is just insert the auto-lose spell? I'm not a huge fan of the current ease of spell casting. I think part of the unbalancing issues of caster vs non-casters. The idea of robe wearing casters running around in the middle of a melee casting left, right and center grates.
S.
The biggest problem I see is what happen with the surprise round and with the first round initiative.
With your system the spellcaster can't cast in the surprise round unless he is the one doing the ambush.
If he was surprised he can't chose what he will do before his initiative count as he will be incapable to act, but if he has to chose if and what he will cast at the start of the round he can't cast during the first round.
Then the concept of "round" is fairly false in the current version of the game. In reality the action cycle is seamless. The limitation go from your initiative count to your next initiative count and that is a round for your character.
Tackling to that a "he should declare his action at the start of the round" mean making all spell a full round action and removing most capacity to react to a battlefield that change a lot in a few initiative ticks from all spellcasters.
It would require a complete retooling of the initiative system.
Or going back to 1E where spells were all full round actions, so they were easy to interrupt.
==Aelryinth
|
|
That's merely rough on full arcane casters, it completely destroys divine and partial casters who are expected to help on the front lines. A dleric that can cast divine favor/power and move into position can full round attack next turn and is occupying space on the battlemat and threatening. A cleric that requires a full round action to cast divine favor/power is just move attacking a full round after the battle is joined, leaving the non-casters hanging for the first round of combat and more vulnerable to flanking. The same applies to any semi-martial class that needs to cast something before fighting at par, and completely destroys the magus as a concept.Or going back to 1E where spells were all full round actions, so they were easy to interrupt.
==Aelryinth
It was a vastly different game, fights lasted more rounds, but each round was resolved way faster, the chance to hit was generally lower, and so on.
Tacking back only part of it will not work.
At 10th level the Multiclass was usually only advancing in one class, so actually it remained fairly steady.
And clerics wore ARMOR, so they could heal on the front lines. You still had to be hit to interrupt a spell. Feature, not bug.
Them not being able to move and cast was also a feature, not a bug.
==Aelryinth
Once he stopped advancing in class, there was no rule saying whether he had to keep splitting xp, ergo, most didn't.
==Aelryinth
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Once he stopped advancing in class, there was no rule saying whether he had to keep splitting xp, ergo, most didn't.
==Aelryinth
There was a rule stating that he did have to keep splitting xp; he was simply forbidden from gaining any more LEVELS in the class, not gaining xp, ergo most did.
Of course, it only mattered on the off chance he got hit with a deck of many things or other energy drain effect that siphoned a certain amount of xp. Gygaxian humanocentrism FTW!
|
|
Once he stopped advancing in class, there was no rule saying whether he had to keep splitting xp, ergo, most didn't.
==Aelryinth
There was a rule stating that he did have to keep splitting xp; he was simply forbidden from gaining any more LEVELS in the class, not gaining xp, ergo most did.
Of course, it only mattered on the off chance he got hit with a deck of many things or other energy drain effect that siphoned a certain amount of xp. Gygaxian humanocentrism FTW!
thys.
And:
At 10th level the Multiclass was usually only advancing in one class, so actually it remained fairly steady.
And clerics wore ARMOR, so they could heal on the front lines. You still had to be hit to interrupt a spell. Feature, not bug.
Them not being able to move and cast was also a feature, not a bug.
==Aelryinth
There was nothing about not moving when casting spells. It was a 1 minute round, remember.
I'll fudge on the split xp...most people ruled that the cap meant you couldn't put xp into a class, as it hit the ceiling and you were at the max.
I am pretty darn sure you couldn't move and cast. That's one of the huge things that 3E brought to D&D. And as they did so, they removed the ability from Melees. It's a huge power coup on the part of casters.
===Aelryinth
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
I'm pretty sure everybody could move and attack/cast in 1st Ed. Movement was its own separate thing. If you were a fighter/etc. with multiple attacks in a round, you could attack first, before initiative was rolled, but I don't think you could MOVE until initiative, and then you got your second (or third, if you were using UA specialization) attack at the end of the round, after bad guys went. If fighters on both sides had first attacks, I don't recall if you went simultaneously or used initiative to see who got the FIRST first attack.
The crusher was that if you got hit, it spoiled ANY spellcasting for the rest of the round, even if you hadn't started casting yet, unless I am misremembering. Still, since initiative was only on a d6 and your casting time added its segments to your initiative, you saw a whole lot more lower-level spells getting cast just so you could be sure to get the spell off when you did win initiative. If you didn't, you were pretty much boned.
Wizards in 1st Ed vs. 3rd:
Vastly fewer spells per day
Vastly lower hit points
Vastly more expensive to acquire new spells
Vastly easier to get your spells disrupted
Fewer options to increase AC
Very unfavorable xp progression, except for a strangely super-accelerated section from about 5th to 9th level. Slow xp before and after, but fast right there.
It was a very different game for casters back then.
FWIW, I was not a fan of the decision to increase sor/wiz HD to d6. It's bad enough sor/wiz can get full Con bonus PLUS can add their favored class bonus to hp (they hardly need more skill points, since their INT is already going to be good), but raising the HD size too? Bleah.
In fact, if anything I'd have kept it there and raised fighter HD to d12. I'm fine with partial casters getting d10. I understand Paizo's desire for a certain uniformity within the rules, but I think a bit more granularity had value.
If you had to go with uniformity, I'd have said:
1/2 BAB = d4 HD
3/4 BAB = d8 HD
1/1 BAB = d12 HD
If HP are going to be a distinguishing feature of the classes, make them MORE distinct, not less. I've played plenty of casters over the years, and there ain't nothin' wrong with learning how to play AROUND a weakness in your class. Just sayin...
Augean stable cleaning feat, here I come!Without, y'know, casting spells.They should get to choose from among numerous over the top abilities which suit their character.
Basically like "mega-feats".
The kind of stuff Barbarians can get is a good example.
I'm thinking classic comic books, manga, and/or legendary mythical stuff.
I literally snorted so hard my nose started bleeding.
Augean stable cleaning feat, here I come!If you sat on ice cream, you'd know what flavor it is.
Yes, your arse is just that wise.
Only to see this a minute later and nearly cackle into unconsciousness. I have a cramp in my diaphragm now and I'm still laughing!