I've been looking at the rogue since the UC came out and I think I'd would make more sense as Alternate Class of the fighter. Basically I'd do away with the Rogue Class and the Ninja would replace it as it's own class and not alternate of the rogue.
The rogue would then be a fighter that swaps out Heavy Armor, Medium Armor, Tower Shield, shields, and All martial weapons for 8 skills per level. and class skills.
Trap finding and Trap sense would replace bravery
10 rogue talents would replace 10 bonus combat feats
Evasion would replace the 1st level bonus combat feat
Sneak Attack would replace Armor Training 1 and 2, Weapon Training 1-4, and Armor Mastery
Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge would replace Armor training 3 and 4
Master Strike would replace Weapon Mastery
Reflex good save would replace Fortitude good save
The rogue would now have 1D10 HD and a Full BAB and qualifies for fighter only feats.
With this change you can not multi-class rogue with fighter but you can with a Ninja.
I like where this is going. My vision of a rogue is The Gray Mouser and the 3.5/PF version doesn't really allow this without sacrificing all utility for the TWF line.
A rogue with sneak attack and full BAB will do a ridiculous amount of damage. Without heavy armor he will also get hit in the face alot.
I think letting him keep medium armor and reducing sneak attack(I did the progression once) makes it more reasonable. I will look for the SA progression I had for a full BAB class.
I'd just change the rogue to full BAB, D10 HP.
SA at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, 19th, this way you pay one SA dice every time you benefit from a BAB increase as well as being more sturdy than the usual rogue.
The rogue can exchange talents for combat feats without limit, count the rogue as a fighter of his rogue level -4 for purposes of feat requirements.
Since BAB and D10 are better than the SA lost and gave it ability to improve fighting skill further, I'd cut skills to 6 sp/level for this variant, otheriwse it is the same as a rogue. Seems a much easier way to do it and better balanced.
A rogue with sneak attack and full BAB will do a ridiculous amount of damage. Without heavy armor he will also get hit in the face alot.
I think letting him keep medium armor and reducing sneak attack(I did the progression once) makes it more reasonable. I will look for the SA progression I had for a full BAB class.
The damage really wouldn't increase. The rogue would hit a bit more often with the sneak attack and at 16th get an extra attack. But the total damage really wouldn't change till 16th. They'd get the extra attack earlier and do more at 6th and 11th instead of 8th and 15th. Not really a big deal I think seeing as the Ninja gets even better than that though limited by ki. I mean a Ninja at first level can sneak attack 2 twice at their highest BAB. Add in TWF and it's 3 times. I'd have to see in action during play to really determine if sneak attack becomes over powering. Seeing what fighters and rangers do in my game though I don't think it will pass them.
I was considering removing evasion and making it a rogues talent. Then adding medium armor or shields though. This seems reasonable since Improved Evasion is an Advanced Rogues Talent.
I'd just change the rogue to full BAB, D10 HP.
SA at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, 19th, this way you pay one SA dice every time you benefit from a BAB increase as well as being more sturdy than the usual rogue.
The rogue can exchange talents for combat feats without limit, count the rogue as a fighter of his rogue level -4 for purposes of feat requirements.
Since BAB and D10 are better than the SA lost and gave it ability to improve fighting skill further, I'd cut skills to 6 sp/level for this variant, otheriwse it is the same as a rogue. Seems a much easier way to do it and better balanced.
Pretty much what I'm proposing here. Just the swapping out fighter features an making it Fighter Alternate class justifies the change. The rogue level -4 for combat feats though, I like that. I think that balance sneak attack even more.
I was just looking at the Archetypes like the Tactician which gets more skills and what they did with the Gunslinger and was thinking why isn't the rogue Full BAB and D10 hit dice class. It just seem like it should be when compared to all the other 3/4 BAB classes which all have some form a casting ability except the monk who has Ki and the Ninja who also has Ki. So all the 3/4 BAB classes have so sort mystical powers but the rogue gets non.
I guess what I'm really trying to do is convince myself this is a good idea. I have player complaining a lot since the Ninja play test and now that Ninja is here I'm getting a earful of "the rogue is obsolete".
Ban the ninja. That will shut him up. :)
Seriously. Interesting idea. IMO Fighters are always skill starved. If the DM allowed it, I would definitely build fighters with periodic level dips into this archetype just for the skills.
Would the expanded skill list be limited to the current rogue list or an amalgam of the fighter and rogue lists?
I'd just change the rogue to full BAB, D10 HP.
SA at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, 19th, this way you pay one SA dice every time you benefit from a BAB increase as well as being more sturdy than the usual rogue.
The rogue can exchange talents for combat feats without limit, count the rogue as a fighter of his rogue level -4 for purposes of feat requirements.
Since BAB and D10 are better than the SA lost and gave it ability to improve fighting skill further, I'd cut skills to 6 sp/level for this variant, otheriwse it is the same as a rogue. Seems a much easier way to do it and better balanced.
Pretty much what I'm proposing here. Just the swapping out fighter features an making it Fighter Alternate class justifies the change. The rogue level -4 for combat feats though, I like that. I think that balance sneak attack even more.
I was just looking at the Archetypes like the Tactician which gets more skills and what they did with the Gunslinger and was thinking why isn't the rogue Full BAB and D10 hit dice class. It just seem like it should be when compared to all the other 3/4 BAB classes which all have some form a casting ability except the monk who has Ki and the Ninja who also has Ki. So all the 3/4 BAB classes have so sort mystical powers but the rogue gets non.
I guess what I'm really trying to do is convince myself this is a good idea. I have player complaining a lot since the Ninja play test and now that Ninja is here I'm getting a earful of "the rogue is obsolete".
Yea, ninja is slightly better off overall.
I'd allow the rogue as I put it forth in my campaign, it probably has no problem to be combined with rogue archetypes, and makes an excellent dirty or skillful fighter type base class. Not sure I should qualify it as a rogue or fighter or neither.. I think I will just allow it to multi-class freely except with standard rogue.
A rogue with sneak attack and full BAB will do a ridiculous amount of damage. Without heavy armor he will also get hit in the face alot.
I think letting him keep medium armor and reducing sneak attack(I did the progression once) makes it more reasonable. I will look for the SA progression I had for a full BAB class.
The damage really wouldn't increase. The rogue would hit a bit more often with the sneak attack and at 16th get an extra attack. But the total damage really wouldn't change till 16th. They'd get the extra attack earlier and do more at 6th and 11th instead of 8th and 15th. Not really a big deal I think seeing as the Ninja gets even better than that though limited by ki. I mean a Ninja at first level can sneak attack 2 twice at their highest BAB. Add in TWF and it's 3 times. I'd have to see in action during play to really determine if sneak attack becomes over powering. Seeing what fighters and rangers do in my game though I don't think it will pass them.
I was considering removing evasion and making it a rogues talent. Then adding medium armor or shields though. This seems reasonable since Improved Evasion is an Advanced Rogues Talent.
No. Full BAB and full sneak attack would mean a ton of damage. They will qualify for the good feats earlier, and will always hit more often which directly means more damage.
No. Full BAB and full sneak attack would mean a ton of damage. They will qualify for the good feats earlier, and will always hit more often which directly means more damage.
I don't think it would be a ton of damage. There will be an increase which is kind of point of making the rogue Full BAB. You might see an extra hit with precision damage happen here and there, power attack damage would progress faster, and in the end there would be one over all attack added.
I don't think it would be a ton of damage. There will be an increase which is kind of point of making the rogue Full BAB. You might see an extra hit with precision damage happen here and there, power attack damage would progress faster, and in the end there would be one over all attack added.
No. Full BAB and full sneak attack would mean a ton of damage. They will qualify for the good feats earlier, and will always hit more often which directly means more damage.
Not quite. Here's the math, using the formula from this thread.
Assumptions:Str 24
+3 Falchion
Greater Wep Focus
Fighting AC 24 CR 10, as per that thread.
damage: 5 (avg falch) +3 (enhancement) +10 (1.5 x mstr)
Rogue
+7 (BAB) +3 (enhancement) +7 (mStr) +2 (GWF) +2 flanking= +21
Fighter: +24
R: .8(18+17.5) + (.3 * 1 *.8 * 18)
28.4 + 4.32 = 32.72
F: .95(18+17.5)+(.3 * 1 * .95 * 18)
33.725 + 5.13 = 38.855
Power Attack:
R: -2 +6
F: -3 +9
R: .7(24 + 17.5) + (.3 * 1 * .7 * 24)
29.05 + 5.04 = 34.09
F: .8(27 + 17.5) + (.3 * 1 * .8 * 27)
35.6 + 6.48 = 42.08
Basically, that +3 that full BAB has is worth 20% more damage.
That's just with one attack, by the way. I can't be arsed to do the +5 that a full BAB would get versus the +2 a 3/4ths would get. I highly suspect that the +2 attack of the rogue could be written off as a miss, but the +5 of the fighter might hit somewhat often.
Seems about right to me. I guess my definition of a ton more damage is different.
Of course I'd have to see this play to see what the impact really is. If it's too much then scale the Sneak Attack back. But I was thinking about a 20% increase is what is was looking for to start with.
I really like this idea. Though something about using power attack (giving up accuracy for power) just seems wrong to use with sneak attack (often described as a precision attack).
Seems about right to me. I guess my definition of a ton more damage is different.
Of course I'd have to see this play to see what the impact really is. If it's too much then scale the Sneak Attack back. But I was thinking about a 20% increase is what is was looking for to start with.
59.25 DPR for a fighter focused on a falchion-used Falchion Fred from DPR thread
SA version-2 to attacks and damage for weapon training being lost.Even losing the fighter bonus feats allows me to keep the feats I really want. Gains 5d6 SA.
The -2 for weapon training being lost is replaced by the flanking bonus. I will give DPR for SA and when not able to SA(sneak attack).
With SA in place the damage is 80.68
Without SA the damage is 48.86 which is close to a regular rogue when it is sneak attacking, and your version only loses 2 skills.
The above example is not doing 20% more damage than the rogue. It is doing 33% more than the fighter, and it has 6 skill points. Why play a rogue or fighter again?
Seems about right to me. I guess my definition of a ton more damage is different.
Of course I'd have to see this play to see what the impact really is. If it's too much then scale the Sneak Attack back. But I was thinking about a 20% increase is what is was looking for to start with.
59.25 DPR for a fighter focused on a falchion-used Falchion Fred from DPR thread
SA version-2 to attacks and damage for weapon training being lost.Even losing the fighter bonus feats allows me to keep the feats I really want. Gains 5d6 SA.
The -2 for weapon training being lost is replaced by the flanking bonus. I will give DPR for SA and when not able to SA(sneak attack).
With SA in place the damage is 80.68Without SA the damage is 48.86 which is close to a regular rogue when it is sneak attacking, and your version only loses 2 skills.
The above example is not doing 20% more damage than the rogue. It is doing 33% more than the fighter, and it has 6 skill points. Why play a rogue or fighter again?
You could be right, might have to scale back SA to a max of 6D6.
The flanking bonus isn't something I'd count as everyone in a flanking position gets +2 to hit.
Seems about right to me. I guess my definition of a ton more damage is different.
Of course I'd have to see this play to see what the impact really is. If it's too much then scale the Sneak Attack back. But I was thinking about a 20% increase is what is was looking for to start with.
59.25 DPR for a fighter focused on a falchion-used Falchion Fred from DPR thread
SA version-2 to attacks and damage for weapon training being lost.Even losing the fighter bonus feats allows me to keep the feats I really want. Gains 5d6 SA.
The -2 for weapon training being lost is replaced by the flanking bonus. I will give DPR for SA and when not able to SA(sneak attack).
With SA in place the damage is 80.68Without SA the damage is 48.86 which is close to a regular rogue when it is sneak attacking, and your version only loses 2 skills.
The above example is not doing 20% more damage than the rogue. It is doing 33% more than the fighter, and it has 6 skill points. Why play a rogue or fighter again?
You could be right, might have to scale back SA to a max of 6D6.
The flanking bonus isn't something I'd count as everyone in a flanking position gets +2 to hit.
That flanking bonus combined with sneak attack is what leads to the much increased damage though. Everyone might get it, but not everyone benefits from it like the new rogue you are making.
Yeah, either scale back sneak attack or make the full attack circumstantial - like, when an opponent is denied dex to AC or you're flanking you can use full attack bonus routine (a "flurry of stabs" so to speak).
EDIT: Or rather the reverse, if you want to enforce it's role as a mobile combatant: When only making a single attack, use full BAB.
If full BAB with sneak attack is broken what does that say about rogues with bard friends?
Inspire Courage and Haste surpass the BAB gap between rogue and this weapon-training-less proposed fighter archetype at every level except 6, where to hit is the same but haste isn't yet available to compensate for the missing iterative. There is the competence bonus to damage though.
And what about the vivisectionist? He can get alchemical bonuses to his attack stat that keep pace with BAB until level 17 while also having full sneak attack progression and an ability mechanically similar to 2/3 spellcasting.
I'd say the full BAB sneak attack can of worms has already been opened.
But the fighter is also benefitting from the performance, and in the meantime the rogue-fighter is getting the performance bonus on top of full bab and sneak attack...
If full BAB with sneak attack is broken what does that say about rogues with bard friends?
Inspire Courage and Haste surpass the BAB gap between rogue and this weapon-training-less proposed fighter archetype at every level except 6, where to hit is the same but haste isn't yet available to compensate for the missing iterative. There is the competence bonus to damage though.
And what about the vivisectionist? He can get alchemical bonuses to his attack stat that keep pace with BAB until level 17 while also having full sneak attack progression and an ability mechanically similar to 2/3 spellcasting.
I'd say the full BAB sneak attack can of worms has already been opened.
You realize that buffs to hit, damage and extra attacks make the full BAB rogue relatively even better than a standard rogue ?
Vivisectionist is silly, I do not think it should have ever been created as it is now, it intrudes too much on rogues/ninjas. While you can argue that bombs are better than SA at least it was it's own thing and a limited resource, now we have a SA damage dealer with more tricks up his sleeve than the rogue. One bad doesnt make the other good.
Here's a suggestion from one my players.
He would like to see a class feature of the rogue added at 1st level that allows the rogue to apply up to his Int modifier in additional ranks to a skill. These additional rank don't count for skill pre-requistites though.
So for example a 1st level rogue with an Int bonus of +3 could put 1 rank normally into stealth and and additional 3 ranks in for +3 bonus to stealth. You'd mark it under ranks 1(3) for +7 Stealth as it's a class and apply +4 Dex for +11.
His point was the rogue doesn't need to be better fighter. The rogue needs his edge back in skills.
It thought this wasn't a bad idea.
If full BAB with sneak attack is broken what does that say about rogues with bard friends?
Inspire Courage and Haste surpass the BAB gap between rogue and this weapon-training-less proposed fighter archetype at every level except 6, where to hit is the same but haste isn't yet available to compensate for the missing iterative. There is the competence bonus to damage though.
And what about the vivisectionist? He can get alchemical bonuses to his attack stat that keep pace with BAB until level 17 while also having full sneak attack progression and an ability mechanically similar to 2/3 spellcasting.
I'd say the full BAB sneak attack can of worms has already been opened.
Haste gives on extra attack with a +1 bonus. Full BAB would stack with that and BAB unlike haste is always on.
An attack bonus does not equal BAB. BAB gives extra attacks and makes sure you are more likely to hit. The two are not equal, and does the vivisectionist stack on loads of d6 on top of what BAB grants. I think not.
You could make it a Rogue ability where if the target is unaware of them, they add 1/4 their rogue level, minimum of 1, to their BAB. This effectively treats them as if they were full BAB in situations where they're stealthy.
|
I'm not much of a number cruncher, so i may be wrong, but many threads speak of the poor performance of the two weapon fighter and the rogue.
If you make the rogue a fighter, and limit sneak attack to light weapons (precision based damage), this might go some way to limiting stacking bonuses from power attack and a high strength.
It would support the idea of a rogue using two weapon fighting, or any other way of maximising attacks. It would improve the rogue and increase the benefits of two weapon fighting in this case.
Compaired to a fighter they would still not stand up to a toe to toe encounter. They have less armour and with rogue talents replacing feats, less combat versatility. They would not deal the massive damage of the two handed fighter, being limited to light weapons to maximise sneak attack.
However, when striking unawares they would potentially level the fighter, with the increased sneak damage. I don't see this as a problem.
With a limited selection of feats, to maximise the two weapon fighting line the rogue would have to spend their first level feat, 7th level feat, 11th level feat etc. This leaves a very limited number of feats to play with for other options (dodge, mobility, spring attack etc.)
Assume both have an 18 str
Fighter with a falchion:
1st: (power attack) 5 (2d4) + 6(Str) +3 (PA)= 14 (+4 to hit)
Fighter could have Weapon Focus to increase to hit by +1, or Furious Focus, so there is no penalty for first power attack.
Rogue with paired short swords:
1st: (TWF) 7 (2d6)+ 6 (Str + 1/2 str) = 13 (+3 to hit)
Sneak attack increases damage to 20 points.
By level 11 your fighter would have another 10 feats. Your rogue, if maximising TWF would have only 3 (having used 1, 7 and 11). The fighter could also move fully in heavy armour, have weapon training bonuses and bravery. The rogue would have their Rogue Talents, something I'm not familiar with.
The problem is, how does this work out on "dips". Might be open to abuse. I believe you can't dip multiple archetypes, so if I'm a fighter, this would stop me dipping rogue as its a fighter archetype.
Alternatively could you make sneak attack a rogue talent?