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This seems to have gotten off track. So I am gonna re ask the question because it in fact directly effects a character I am building. I will use my real character as an example. He is currently only level 5 but this problem will occur at level 7.
HumanUrban/Supersticious Barbarian 6, Unarmed Fighter 1
18 dex, wears a mithril Chain Shirt, Max Dex 6
AC: 4amor, 6dex (raging), a dodge, 4 Crane Style= 24
Touch AC: 20
All my favored class bonuses are going into superstitious so at Barb level 6 I will have a Superstitious bonus of 5 (2 base, 1 level, 2 FC). So my Ghost Rager bonus will be 5, more than my armor bonus. So I will have a AC 24 and a Touch AC 25
So what happens, it is, according to the descriptions of a Touch AC, impossible to have a touch higher than your regular AC. So does my touch AC become my new regular AC or something else?
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So does my touch AC become my new regular AC or something else?
Against a touch attack your AC will be 25. (Assuming what you wrote is correct, 6 dex, 3 ranks acrobatics, fighting defensively, crane style activated, raging)
It's a conditional modifier that only applies against touch attacks. Just like if there was something that gave you a bonus to your AC when flat-footed, it would make it possible for your flat-footed AC to be higher than your normal AC.
Just add everything up the way it tells you.
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Is there any abilities that give precedence for what you are saying?
On the one hand that makes sense, as it says it applies to touch attacks. On the other, that defies both common sense that it is easier to stab me then touch me and that, according to the rules, there is no way to calculate a touch AC higher than a normal AC.
Are there other abilities out there that can, to use your example, raise my flat-footed AC that may give an example for how this is works? I have been unable to find any other ability, feat, spell or magic item that raises just the touch or flatfooted AC. Every other thing I can find always raises your regular AC too.
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Is there any abilities that give precedence for what you are saying?
Ghost Rager says it grants a bonus to touch AC, so that's what it does. As mentioned upthread, the Deflective Shield (Ex) ability of the Armor Master fighter archetype does something similar.
On the other, that defies both common sense that it is easier to stab me then touch me and that, according to the rules, there is no way to calculate a touch AC higher than a normal AC.
Sure there is. You have a +5 bonus to AC that only works against touch attacks. Just like a bonus to damage against orcs only applies when you hit an orc.
For fluff, maybe you're so freaked out by spooky ghosts and stuff, the idea of something bad touching you is worse than just getting stabbed, so your emotions cause you to be more nimble in avoiding being touched.
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Thanks Grick, That was exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Can't believe I missed it. I am looking for info to present my GM. It's not quite the same but close enough for info.
I still don't think it makes any sense to say the gunslinger misses at 20 feet but hits at 40 with a 24 or the numerous other oddities that it creates. But I do completely understand your point of view.
I still don't think it makes any sense to say the gunslinger misses at 20 feet but hits at 40 with a 24 or the numerous other oddities that it creates.
It would make a lot more (fluff) sense if it was just a bonus to AC against spells and incorporeal touch attacks.
It seems odd that it works against firearms/splash weapons/tanglefoot bags/nets/etc.
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I still don't think it makes any sense to say the gunslinger misses at 20 feet but hits at 40 with a 24 or the numerous other oddities that it creates.It would make a lot more (fluff) sense if it was just a bonus to AC against spells and incorporeal touch attacks.
It seems odd that it works against firearms/splash weapons/tanglefoot bags/nets/etc.
For fluff, you could just state that the barbarian thinks it must be magic that makes those small balls of lead deadly. Thus you are extra paranoid of them.
Personally I think that they used touch AC for firearms to keep it simpler. People are already used to working that out and creating another AC type vs firearms would just be confusing.
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Thanks Grick, That was exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Can't believe I missed it. I am looking for info to present my GM. It's not quite the same but close enough for info.
I still don't think it makes any sense to say the gunslinger misses at 20 feet but hits at 40 with a 24 or the numerous other oddities that it creates. But I do completely understand your point of view.
I don't believe Ghost Rager actually gives a bonus against Firearms.
When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.
I stand by my initial statement that any rule referencing "touch AC" should be reworded to stay in keeping with the fact that core rules never actually state a definition for "touch AC" outright. The closest we have is a rule on how to determine your effective AC vs. touch attacks. Same thing, right? If we reword these things accordingly though...
If the wording of these things were consistent with the core rules, Ghost Rager would say:
"She also gains a morale bonus to AC against any touch attacks made against her equal to her saving throw bonus from her superstition rage power."
And the Firearms rules would say:
"When firing an early firearm, targets within the first range increment of the weapon do not benefit from any armor, shield, or natural armor bonus, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."
More consistency, less room for confusion, and as an added bonus, the interaction between these two rules works in a logical fashion this way.
And yes, I'm kind of cheating with that firearms rewording, but otherwise I'd be saying it's treated as a touch attack that isn't treated as a touch attack. If my rewording there causes anything to function incorrectly though, it's something that could stand to have some errata added in anyway. I'm legitimately unsure if bracers of armor for instance are meant to give a bonus vs. firearms at close range.
I don't believe Ghost Rager actually gives a bonus against Firearms.
Are you saying it shouldn't, according to the flavor, or that it doesn't, according to the rules?
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I don't believe Ghost Rager actually gives a bonus against Firearms.Are you saying it shouldn't, according to the flavor, or that it doesn't, according to the rules?
It actually looked like he was saying it doesn't according to the rules, because of the clause in the firearms description about them not counting as touch attacks for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. Though whether they meant "feats and abilities, such as Deadly Aim" indicating a feat that references touch ac, or if it's specifically referencing feats and abilities that work just like Deadly Aim works, I suppose has some room for interpretation.
I would think it's the latter...
I don't believe Ghost Rager actually gives a bonus against Firearms.Are you saying it shouldn't, according to the flavor, or that it doesn't, according to the rules?
It definitely doesn't, according to flavor.
RAW, it's kind of a total mess, because both of these rules make direct reference to "touch AC" but technically speaking, nowhere in the core rules is there an actual proper definition of "touch AC" or the conditions under which one uses it. It's just sort of an informal shorthand for "this is what you substitute in in place of your regular AC when something makes a touch attack against you."
99% of the time, this is an incredibly minor detail, because duh, formally defined or not, we all know what Touch AC is.
The way the firearms rules are written though only make sense if you assume the person writing that section forgot how the base combat rules were written, and could have sworn there bit in the core rules along the lines of:
"Touch AC: A character's Touch AC is equal to the following:
10 + Dexterity modifier + other modifiers
Substitute your Touch AC in place of your normal AC whenever you are the subject of a touch attack."
If there was, hey! The firearm rule makes sense as written. We go off touch AC even though we aren't making a touch attack. We don't have such a rule though, so, ambiguous mess, and I'm FAQ tagging the post where I raised the issue.
I don't believe Ghost Rager actually gives a bonus against Firearms.Are you saying it shouldn't, according to the flavor, or that it doesn't, according to the rules?
It definitely doesn't, according to flavor.
RAW, it's kind of a total mess, because both of these rules make direct reference to "touch AC" but technically speaking, nowhere in the core rules is there an actual proper definition of "touch AC" or the conditions under which one uses it. It's just sort of an informal shorthand for "this is what you substitute in in place of your regular AC when something makes a touch attack against you."
99% of the time, this is an incredibly minor detail, because duh, formally defined or not, we all know what Touch AC is.
The way the firearms rules are written though only make sense if you assume the person writing that section forgot how the base combat rules were written, and could have sworn there bit in the core rules along the lines of:
"Touch AC: A character's Touch AC is equal to the following:
10 + Dexterity modifier + other modifiers
Substitute your Touch AC in place of your normal AC whenever you are the subject of a touch attack."
If there was, hey! The firearm rule makes sense as written. We go off touch AC even though we aren't making a touch attack. We don't have such a rule though, so, ambiguous mess, and I'm FAQ tagging the post where I raised the issue.
Ghost Rager also makes this mistaken assumption, and doesn't seem like it was written with the firearms bit in mind. So... it would need errata of its own, to spell out exactly how it feels about this. Bonus against touch attacks would fit normal wording, and what I'm pretty sure is the intent.
As others have said, A dagger attack doesn't target Touch AC, regardless of how high or low that AC is.
And keep in mind, that a regular attack requires you to bypass the target's defenses, including its Natural AC, Deflection bonuses, Shield, etc. Which means that you're penetrating those defenses.
Where as a Touch attack only requires you to make even the gentlest contact with that individual, anywhere. Hence why Armor, Shield, and Natural Armor bonuses do not apply, but Deflection bonuses do.
Any material printed later, which does not follow the core AC rules do not change how the entire AC system works, they only change it as far as that one ability is concerned.