Okay, so I was sort of invited over here based on a post I made recently in this forum. I was working on making a cleric/bard hybrid that does something different than the Evangelist archetype from Ultimate Combat.
I'm still working on it (trying to make something that can stand on the front line and inspire the troops around him to fight better).
However, I recently built a MCA (before finding this thread) that is an Inquisitor/Ranger hybrid.
Guardian v1.0
Primary Class: Inquisitor
Secondary Class: Ranger
BAB: Medium
Saves: Good Fort, Good Will, +2 Ref
Skills: 6 + Int modifier, Inquisitor list + Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Geography)
Spellcasting: As Inquisitor
Class Features
The following are class features of the guardian.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A guardian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. She is also proficient with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Spells: An guardian casts divine spells drawn from the inquisitor spell list. She can cast any spell she knows at any time without preparing it ahead of time, assuming she has not yet used up her allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.
To learn or cast a spell, an guardian must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an guardian's spell is 10 + the spell level + the guardian's Wisdom modifier.
An guardian can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level each day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 2–3. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score (see Table 1–3 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
An guardian's selection of spells is extremely limited. An guardian begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the guardian's choice. At each new guardian level, she gains one or more new spells as indicated on Table 2–4. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells an guardian knows is not affected by her Wisdom score. The numbers on Table 2–4 are fixed.)
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third guardian level thereafter (8th, 11th, and so on), an guardian can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the guardian “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level guardian spell she can cast. The guardian may swap out only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.
Domain: A guardian must select the Trickery domain and she gains the domain powers from it. A guardian does not gain the bonus spells listed for each domain, nor does she gain bonus spell slots. The guardian uses her level as her effective cleric level when determining the power and effect of her domain powers. If the guardian has cleric levels, one of her two domain selections must be the Trickery domain. Levels of cleric and guardian stack for the purpose of determining domain powers and abilities, but not for bonus spells.
Judgment (Su): Starting at 1st level, an guardian can pronounce judgment upon her foes as a swift action. Starting when the judgment is made, the guardian receives a bonus or special ability based on the type of judgment made.
At 1st level, an guardian can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the guardian can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The guardian must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again.
When the guardian uses this ability, she must select one type of judgment to make. As a swift action, she can change this judgment to another type. If the guardian is evil, she receives profane bonuses instead of sacred, as appropriate. Neutral guardians must select profane or sacred bonuses. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.
Destruction: The guardian is filled with divine wrath, gaining a +1 sacred bonus on all weapon damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 for every three guardian levels she possesses.
Healing: The guardian is surrounded by a healing light, gaining fast healing 1. This causes the guardian to heal 1 point of damage each round as long as the guardian is alive and the judgment lasts. The amount of healing increases by 1 point for every three guardian levels she possesses.
Justice: This judgment spurs the guardian to seek justice, granting a +1 sacred bonus on all attack rolls. This bonus increases by +1 for every five guardian levels she possesses. At 10th level, this bonus is doubled on all attack rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Piercing: This judgment gives the guardian great focus and makes her spells more potent. This benefit grants a +1 sacred bonus on concentration checks and caster level checks made to overcome a target's spell resistance. This bonus increases by +1 for every three guardian levels she possesses.
Protection: The guardian is surrounded by a protective aura, granting a +1 sacred bonus to Armor Class. This bonus increases by +1 for every five guardian levels she possesses. At 10th level, this bonus is doubled against attack rolls made to confirm critical hits against the guardian.
Purity: The guardian is protected from the vile taint of her foes, gaining a +1 sacred bonus on all saving throws. This bonus increases by +1 for every five guardian levels she possesses. At 10th level, the bonus is doubled against curses, diseases, and poisons.
Resiliency: This judgment makes the guardian resistant to harm, granting DR 1/magic. This DR increases by 1 for every five levels she possesses. At 10th level, this DR changes from magic to an alignment (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) that is opposite the guardian's. If she is neutral, the guardian does not receive this increase.
Resistance: The guardian is shielded by a flickering aura, gaining 2 points of energy resistance against one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic) chosen when the judgment is declared. The protection increases by 2 for every three guardian levels she possesses.
Smiting: This judgment bathes the guardian's weapons in a divine light. The guardian's weapons count as magic for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction. At 6th level, the guardian's weapons also count as one alignment type (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. The type selected must match one of the guardian's alignments. If the guardian is neutral, she does not receive this bonus. At 10th level, the guardian's weapons also count as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction (but not for reducing hardness).
Orisons: Guardians learn a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table 2–4 under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. Orisons prepared using other spell slots, such as those due to metamagic feats, are expended normally.
Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a guardian selects a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table. She gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against creatures of his selected type. Likewise, she gets a +2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against them. A guardian may make Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify these creatures.
At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the guardian may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +2.
If the guardian chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, she must also choose an associated subtype. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the guardian's bonuses do not stack; she simply uses whichever bonus is higher.
Favored Terrain (Ex): At 3rd level, a guardian may select a type of terrain from the ranger's Favored Terrains table. The guardian gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks when he is in this terrain. A guardian traveling through her favored terrain normally leaves no trail and cannot be tracked (though she may leave a trail if she so chooses). Unlike a ranger, a guardian only selects one favored terrain.
Track (Ex): At 2nd level, a guardian adds half her level on Survival skill checks made to follow or identify tracks.
Combat Style Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, a guardian must select a combat style to pursue, as per the ranger ability. The guardian's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
The benefits of the ranger's chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a ranger selects a combat style, it cannot be changed.
Discern Lies (Sp): At 5th level, an guardian can discern lies, as per the spell, for a number of rounds per day equal to her guardian level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Activating this ability is an immediate action.
Second Judgment (Ex): At 8th level, whenever an guardian uses her judgment ability, she selects two different judgments, instead of one. This only consumes one use of her judgment ability. As a swift action, she can change one of these judgments to another type.
Stalwart (Ex): At 11th level, an guardian can use mental and physical resiliency to avoid certain attacks. If she makes a Fortitude or Will saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, she instead avoids the effect entirely. This ability can only be used if the guardian is wearing light armor, medium armor, or no armor. A helpless guardian does not gain the benefit of the stalwart ability.
Camouflage (Ex): A guardian of 14th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of her favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.
Third Judgment (Ex): At 16th level, whenever an guardian uses her judgment ability, she selects three different judgments, instead of just two. This only consumes one use of her judgment ability. As a swift action, the guardian can change one of these judgments to another type.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in her favored terrain, a guardian of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.
True Judgment (Su): At 20th level, an guardian can call true judgment down upon a foe during combat. Whenever an guardian uses her judgment ability, the guardian can invoke true judgment on a foe as a swift action. Once declared, the guardian can make a single melee (or ranged attack, if the foe is within 30 feet) against the target. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally and the target must make a Fortitude save or die. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the guardian's level + the guardian's Wisdom modifier. Regardless of whether or not the save is made, the target creature is immune to the guardian's true judgment ability for 24 hours. Once this ability has been used, it cannot be used again for 1d4 rounds.
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: An guardian can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions.
I'm fairly certain that it's too powerful, but I rather prefer to build a strong base and whittle away until it sits on the power level that I like.
I'm not super satisfied with leaving the Judgments as-is and could use some ideas on how to alter that feature.
I also left out any tables because they aren't really practical on this board.
Please comment, critique and otherwise tear this down so that it can be properly built.
@re mauril/guardian: we're actually on a bit of a revamp of previous work, and not posting many new multiclass archetypes. Nice work on the guardian though! First, you could peruse our guidelines as posted by elghinn lightbringer somewhere near the bottom of the first page of this thread.
As for your guardian it might help if you could:
Clearly illustrate what you are abilities you are trading in/out in line with other archetypes.
It also helps others to understand your concept and not suggest out of theme abilities if you give some idea of what you are trying to create role-wise and flavour-wise. Why trickery domain only for example?
You could also look at inquisitions rather than domains as flak suggested for the witchfinder (inquisitor/witch) we workshopped - in fact that mca is a recent illustration of trades for abilities on the previous page.
I hope these points help to clarify how we can help further! @bardess ideas? (seeing as you sent mauril to us in the first place... ;p)
Ah, so it's all my fault, huh? ;P
Well, I'd say that judgments function just against the favored enemy (maybe 1 single favored enemy); I'd remove the combat style feats and leave just the inquisitor weapon choices. One terrain type could go. This is just for start...
Anyway, I called first dibs for my Hand of the God when the Witchfinder's finished, remember! ;PPP
Alright, guys, RL issues managed; so I'm back to this.
OSW, thanks for all your work formatting and tabling; I'll be along to help out in the morning. If you've got AIM, send me a message.
Fletcher will be posted soon-ish. I just need to make a couple decisions on the casting.
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Welcome to the thread, Mauril! Lessee what you've brought us...
We don't do the +2 to save anymore, so. Also, not feeling the flavor of this being a 'guardian'; a little write-up would be helpful for that.
Trickery Domain is definitely not fitting the name as it stands xP
I'll look over specific abilities later, but I think it's a good start other than the mentions above.
Sorry. Been away a little bit.
Taking a look over it, the Trickery Domain doesn't make sense because another ability (some bonus spells) and the flavor text did get stripped.
These mysterious hunter illusionists are generally not seen or heard, but the knowledge of their existence deters many crimes and invasions. The training of a Guardian is long and slow, so it is generally only suited for elves. In their off seasons, Guardians take bounties on wanted criminals.
This ability was also removed.
Bonus Spells: A guardian is adept at the art of illusion. She gains ghost sound (0) as a bonus spell at first level. At 2nd level she gains disguise self (1), at 5th invisibility (2), at 8th nondetection (3), at 11th hallucinatory terrain (4), at 14th seeming (5), and at 17th mislead (6) as bonus spells known.
@OSW (and everyone else, I guess) here is the line by line replacement for the various features.
Favored Enemy replaces Solo TacticsBonus Spells replace both detect alignment and discern lies
Track replaces Stern Gaze
Combat Style replaces the bonus teamwork feats (though at different levels)
Favored Terrain replaces Bane
Camouflage replaces Greater Bane
Hide in Plain Sight replaces Slayer
I'm not sure what I dropped Exploit Weakness for, but I'm sure that it was simply dropped because something the whole bundled seemed too powerful with it still included.
My original listing actually didn't have the bonus +2 reflex, but the guidelines seemed to suggest that it should be in there (since there were three good saves between the two classes).
The increased skill set (+3 skills over the Inquisitor list) and the added weapon proficiencies are relatively minor, so I'm not certain they really change the power of the class much.
@Raiderrpg: Glad things got sorted out!
I'm not married to the name. It's just what the group from my homebrew world that this build was based on is called. They are sort of the black ops unit of one of the kingdoms, focusing on using stealth (magic and mundane) and illusion to eliminate the foes of the enemy.
I'm open to suggestions, and I'm also open to trying my hand at one of the classes on the current list that needs making.
One problem is the marriage of Favored Enemy and Judgements. Two potent combat mechanics that can be used at the same time so easily is basically...
Well, while you might think it's like 1+1=2, it's more like 2+2=4, if you get my meaning.
Reading the flavor, trickery domain does work. Let's call it 'Hidden Guardian', maybe? Minor change that certainly could suit the class.
Hm. I'm thinking the other changeovers are alright, though I'll be running through testing at some point to be sure.
As far as the other classes, we're trying to get stuff polished right now; wait till Flak can post and put some input down, and we'll get you set up right and proper. For now, just keep on the Guardian- and take your time. >:3 Very few classes are done in one go- I think most of the best have taken 3 or so 'versions' to be completed.
I sort of felt the same way about FE + Judgments, but I wasn't sure if FE alone was potent enough, since rangers (in my experience) seemed to be built largely around both FE and Hunter's Bond, where Inquisitors are built around Judgments and Solo Tactics/bonus teamwork feats. I just sort of married the two.
What would you think of Judgments sort of working similar to the Hunting Companions portion of the Hunter's Bond ability? Basically, alter the way the Judgments function to effect the Hidden Guardian's allies, instead of just himself? Alternately, just giving them the Hunting Companions ability instead of Judgments?
Also, if there needs polishing done, I'm in. Where should I start?
@mauril: I agree with raiderrpg, trickery totally complements your write-up. While I personally find single race classes/archetypes straitjacketing, I think this one works well and you are on the right track. My comments:
*1:@raiderrpg - if Hidden Guardian has trickery domain, it doubles up on many of the spells in bonus spells ability:
Bonus Spells: A guardian is adept at the art of illusion. She gains ghost sound (0) as a bonus spell at first level. At 2nd level she gains disguise self (1), at 5th invisibility (2), at 8th nondetection (3), at 11th hallucinatory terrain (4), at 14th seeming (5), and at 17th mislead (6) as bonus spells known.
namely disguise self, invisibility, nondetection and mislead, albeit at different levels.
Either way works I guess. With the Bonus Spells, abilities are traded out (detect alignment and discern lies- not sure if they are balanced swaps though) and the Hidden Guardian is free to choose ANY domain.
I actually prefer the "only trickery domain" idea (strange as it's a straitjacket, but this MCA seems to be flavoured that way), and nixing the bonus spells, and then having detect alignment and discern lies still to trade for Hidden Guardian powers, or to keep. I think both are useful for a Hidden Guardian, but maybe not mauril's Hidden Guardian.
*2:
Track replaces Stern Gaze
I'm Confused!?! Inquisitors get track at 2nd level.
*3: I'd like to see a mashup of Hunting Companions/Judgments as you suggested. Give it a go, and we'll see. :)
@raiderrpg: Yep, working away on the formatting. All pages I uploaded are now formatted and ready to be linked. Sent you a message on the wiki re: divine exemplary spell progression error. Not sure AIM so useful due to conflicting time zones (it's 10pm here and 7am where you are!)
P.S.
Well, while you might think it's like 1+1=2, it's more like 2+2=4, if you get my meaning.
I think you meant 1+1=3??? (synergy) or 2+2=17.8 (exponentia) :P
*1:@raiderrpg - if Hidden Guardian has trickery domain, it doubles up on many of the spells in bonus spells ability:
Bonus Spells: A guardian is adept at the art of illusion. She gains ghost sound (0) as a bonus spell at first level. At 2nd level she gains disguise self (1), at 5th invisibility (2), at 8th nondetection (3), at 11th hallucinatory terrain (4), at 14th seeming (5), and at 17th mislead (6) as bonus spells known.namely disguise self, invisibility, nondetection and mislead, albeit at different levels.
Either way works I guess. With the Bonus Spells, abilities are traded out (detect alignment and discern lies- not sure if they are balanced swaps though) and the Hidden Guardian is free to choose ANY domain.
I actually prefer the "only trickery domain" idea (strange as it's a straitjacket, but this MCA seems to be flavoured that way), and nixing the bonus spells, and then having detect alignment and discern lies still to trade for Hidden Guardian powers, or to keep. I think both are useful for a Hidden Guardian, but maybe not mauril's Hidden Guardian.
Inquisitors don't gain bonus spells from their domain. "An inquisitor does not gain the bonus spells listed for each domain, nor does she gain bonus spell slots." This was basically including those bonus domain spells explicitly. In order to get them, something had to be lost (to keep the power level even). So I chose the thing the inquisitor got that was most like bonus spells, that is some SLAs.
At least that was my reasoning.
*2:Track replaces Stern GazeI'm Confused!?! Inquisitors get track at 2nd level.
My bad. You're right. They lost Stern Gaze for something, even if it was just flavor.
*3: I'd like to see a mashup of Hunting Companions/Judgments as you suggested. Give it a go, and we'll see. :)
I'll get to work on it tonight and see if I can get something that I feel happy with.
Hey just checking in, welcome aboard Mauril nice work you're doing here!
I'm unfortunately swamped in schoolwork at the moment. But I'm actually still following the thread (believe it or not!). I'm around. Keep it up everyone!
Hey just checking in, welcome aboard Mauril nice work you're doing here!
I'm unfortunately swamped in schoolwork at the moment. But I'm actually still following the thread (believe it or not!). I'm around. Keep it up everyone!
Okay, so here is my first crack at combining Hunting Companions with Judgments. Right now I've left them usable whenever (like inquisitor judgments), but if it's too strong, it could easily be limited to only when fighting favored enemies and/or within her favored terrain.
Bonded Judgment
Starting at 1st level, a guardian can pronounce judgment upon her foes as a swift action. Starting when the judgment is made, the guardian receives a bonus or special ability based on the type of judgment made.
At 1st level, a guardian can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the guardian can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The guardian must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again.
When the guardian uses this ability, she must select one type of judgment to make. As a swift action, she can change this judgment to another type. If the inquisitor is evil, she receives profane bonuses instead of sacred, as appropriate. Neutral inquisitors must select profane or sacred bonuses. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.
A Hidden Guardian may choose to activate the following abilities. She may choose to grant the listed bonus to herself or she may choose to grant half of that bonus (minimum 1) to all of her allies within 30 feet. These allies need not remain within range after the ability is activated but all allies lose any benefits if a Guardian chooses to deactivate the ability.
This ability counts as the inquisitor's Judgment ability for the purposes of feats, class and item requirements.
Destruction: The guardian is filled with divine wrath, gaining a +1 sacred bonus on all weapon damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 for every three guardian levels she possesses.
Justice: This judgment spurs the guardian to seek justice, granting a +1 sacred bonus on all attack rolls. This bonus increases by +1 for every five guardian levels she possesses. At 10th level, this bonus is doubled on all attack rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Perception: This judgment heightens a guardian's ability to find her foes and pierce their illusions. The judgment grants a +2 bonus on perception and sense motive checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every three levels the guardian possesses. At 10th level, this ability automatically allows the guardian to make a save to disbelieve illusions.
Piercing: This judgment gives the guardian great focus and makes her spells more potent. This benefit grants a +1 sacred bonus on concentration checks and caster level checks made to overcome a target's spell resistance. This bonus increases by +1 for every three guardian levels she possesses.
Destruction, Justice and Piercing are word-for-word from the Inquisitor ability. Perception is my addition. I'd like to add a stealth option, but I'm not sure how to do it under the bounds of "must be in combat" from the judgment ability.
I am still -eyeballs deep- in the psychic. Along with numerous playtest phases, game sessions, interviews, work sessions, artist jam sessions, and family events I just haven't been able to get things finished. Further, I'm a bit ill at the moment, with a really bad scratchy sore throat that negatively impacted my Requiem game last night. -,-
Sadface.
I remain highly interested in everything going on here, though! Anything that's been "finished" since the thread-split please send on to my email account, and I'll add it to the growing pile of *awesome* that will go into the finished PDFs after one more polish. Sorry for all my quietude on the boards!
@Hidden Guardian
A Hidden Guardian may choose to activate the following abilities. She may choose to grant the listed bonus to herself or she may choose to grant half of that bonus (minimum 1) to all of her allies within 30 feet. These allies need not remain within range after the ability is activated but all allies lose any benefits if a Guardian chooses to deactivate the ability.
So this is the base of your crunchy bit. Seems okay to me, though I'm sure raiderrg/flak/bardess/purplefixer/cartmanbeck may have other ideas! As for the stealth option, I'm not sure how it fits in with a judgment in a combat that has already begun either. Maybe a SLA is the way to go. I like your Perception ability.
@flak/purplefixer: nice to hear from you guys!
@Hidden Guardian
A Hidden Guardian may choose to activate the following abilities. She may choose to grant the listed bonus to herself or she may choose to grant half of that bonus (minimum 1) to all of her allies within 30 feet. These allies need not remain within range after the ability is activated but all allies lose any benefits if a Guardian chooses to deactivate the ability.So this is the base of your crunchy bit. Seems okay to me, though I'm sure raiderrg/flak/bardess/purplefixer/cartmanbeck may have other ideas! As for the stealth option, I'm not sure how it fits in with a judgment in a combat that has already begun either. Maybe a SLA is the way to go. I like your Perception ability.
@flak/purplefixer: nice to hear from you guys!
Yeah. Also, as a deviation from the normal inquisitor, the options of judgments changes somewhat.
The stealth option was sort of "use someone as a distraction to make the stealth kill". Obviously someone will have to be seen to be in combat, but not everyone. If you've been keeping up with the changes to Stealth proposed in the blog, Stealth in combat is becoming much more viable.
Eldritch Hunter
Flavor Mini-blurb: Combining Archery with magics both arcane and natural, the Eldritch Hunter stalks his prey- any prey- with a spell on his lips and two fingers on the bowstring.
Class: Ranger/Magus
Concept: An archer who enchants his arrows to match his opponents.
HD: Full
BAB: Full
Saves: Fort good, Ref good, Will bad
Level: Special:
1 Track, Arcane Pool, Craft Arrows
2 Combat Style Feat
3 Spellbound Arrow
4 Hunter's Bond
5 Magus Arcana
6 Combat Style Feat
7 Hunter's Stride
8 Swift Tracker
9 Evasion
10 Combat Style Feat, Magus Arcana
11 Quarry
12 Camouflage, Improved Spellbound Arrow
13
14 Combat Style Feat
15 Magus Arcana
16 Improved Evasion
17 Hide in Plain Sight
18 Combat Style Feat
19 Improved Quarry
20 Greater Spellbound Arrow, Magus Arcana
Spellcasting: As Ranger. The Eldritch Hunter also recieves the following additions to his spell list:
Level 1: Mount, Magic Weapon
Level 2: Acid Arrow, Spider Climb
Level 3: Force Hook Charge, Greater Magic Weapon
Level 4: Dimension Door, Fire Shield
Arcane Pool: An Eldritch Hunter gains an Arcane Pool, as the Magus ability, with the following changes.
- May only apply weapon enhancements to the bow.
- May apply Seeking, Distance, Flaming, Flaming Burst, Frost, Freezing Burst, Shocking, Shocking Burst, or Speed.
This replaces the Ranger's Favored Enemy at first level.
Craft Arrows: An Eldritch Hunter may craft magical arrows, as though through Craft Magical Arms and Armor. He may apply his Spellbound Arrow abilities to any arrows he creates; however, the enhancement bonuses do not stack. If he later gains the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, he may create magical arrows in half the time.
This replaces the Ranger's Wild Empathy.
Combat Style Feat: The Eldritch Hunter must select the Archery style.
Spellbound Arrow: The Eldritch Hunter's signature ability is to craft an arrow to match his opponents. To anyone else, this arrow is simply a +1 Arrow; to the Eldritch Hunter, however, it can be far more.
At level 3, the Eldritch Hunter may meditate for one hour each day to create a number of Runed Arrows equal to 3+his Int modifier; each of these is considered a +1 arrow, with an additional +1 for each five class levels the Eldritch Hunter attains (Maximum +5 at level 20). As a move action, he may spend one point from his arcane pool to apply the Bane special ability related to a single creature type. He may only have a maximum number of 20 Runed Arrows in existence at any one time.
This replaces Endurance and Favored Terrain.
Hunter's Bond: As the Ranger ability.
Magus Arcana: As the Magus ability, at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20.
This replaces the Ranger's Favored Enemy from 5th level onwards.
Hunter's Stride: At level 7, the Eldritch Hunter may spend an arcane point to track a named target. This acts as though through the Locate Creature spell.
This replaces the ranger's Woodland Stride.
Evasion: As ranger.
Quarry: As ranger.
Improved Spellbound Arrow: At 12th level, the Eldritch Hunter may create a more potent arrow. By spending an arcane point during his meditation, he may enchant a single arrow to strike a named target. This target must be one the Eldritch Hunter has seen within the last week. Upon firing this arrow at the named target, he gains a +20 on his attack roll and it deals an extra +1d6 damage per 2 levels of Eldritch Hunter; this stacks with the Bane ability. He may only have one such arrow in existence at any time. At level 20, he may have two such arrows in existence at any one time.
This replaces the ranger's Camouflage.
Improved Evasion: As ranger.
Hide in Plain Sight: As ranger.
Improved Quarry: As ranger.
Greater Spellbound Arrow: At 20th level, the Eldritch Hunter may choose to create a truly potent arrow. By spending three arcane points during meditation, he may enchant a single arrow to strike a named target, as Improved Spellbound Arrow. Should this arrow strike the target, they must make a fortitude save (DC 10+Half Eldritch Hunter's level+Int Modifier) or die. Should they succeed on the save, they take damage as though it were an Improved spellbound arrow. He may only have one such arrow in existence at any one time.
This replaces the ranger's Master Hunter.
64 Ogres on the run, thanks to a couple Invisibility potions. Not half bad.
Thoughts? Opinions? Went for the 'hunter' aspect of the rangers while trying not to make the Magus bits edge out anyone wanting to play an Arcane Archer.
@beckett - umm, contact details?
@raiderrpg re: Eldritch Hunter. Much better than the Eldritch Fletcher, and IMHO a better name too. Good to see you iterating the swap outs too!
*I don't get the flavour connection with some of the added spells, but that's just me. I'm not sure how they balance, I'm guessing you just put them in. Not that I think it's a bad idea, just wondering what balances them...
*The Bane ability applies to the Spellbound arrow I'm guessing... :)
*The specialised magus ability is a good tweak too.
*I like the use of arcane points for Hunter's stride, and nice to see you kept hide in plain sight and improved quarry for that real hunter feel, as opposed to plain old arcane archer.
As usual, my crunch isn't up to a wholly rigorous review, but I like this.
@raider again - any chance of contact re:wiki?
Just sent you a message on that, OSW.
And yes, Bane is for the spellbound arrow... ^^;;
The spells are because they met my standards here- arcane 'tropes' that fit the hunter's needs without being overpowered. Though I'll admit Force Hook Charge was just for the 'Hey look, I'm Link!' factor >_>
I REALLY wanted to make this different than an Arcane Archer, and I think it works. The Hunter gets Bane, stealth, and hunting; the Arcane Archer keeps their much better spellcasting and attractive special attacks.
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As far as the wiki; I think I'm going to let OSW handle the rest of the tables, as they give me a major headache. I'm going to start on bolding, headers, and spacing very soon-ish.
@raiderrpg: Copy that!But there are a few other issues with divine exemplar and one other progression - I sent messages to you. I guess we can fix them up later...
The wiki tables give YOU a major headache? You %^$#! ;p
Ok, they give me a headache too, but I seem to be able to get through them. Can you put up the bard and cleric MCA pages/links?
re: Eldritch Hunter: yep I think it's distanced flavourwise from Arcane Archer.
Ok, here's a slight revamp. Moved the Witchfinder's Mark to 3rd level at -1 penalty etc. Will leave it at this I think until flak's return...
Primary: Inquisitor
Secondary: Witch
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d8
Saves: G/P/G
Bonus Skills: None. 4+int modifier per level.
Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All simple weapons plus favoured weapon of deity. Witchfinders are proficient with light armor only.
Spells: The witchfinder casts divine spells as an inquisitor. Spells are drawn from the inquisitor spell list and witchfinders receive spells per day and spells known as inquisitors, except where noted under Patron.
Versatile Casting: Witchfinders are exempt from the inquisitor restriction on casting opposed alignment spells. This unique capability reflects their dual nature, and their lack of qualms with regard to achieving their aims. (This ability replaces Detect Alignment.)
Inquisition: The witchfinder gains an inquisition at 1st level. Suggested inquisitions are Spellkiller, Anger and Fate. However, the inquisition powers may only be accessed by the witchfinder if he is wielding his feybane weapon.
Judgment: As Inquisitor except: a witchfinder may expend one of his daily uses of judgment in order to use a hex on a creature who ordinarily could not be targeted by that hex due to daily hex usage restrictions. Likewise, he may expend two of his daily uses of judgment to use a major hex again in this way. Additionally, the witchfinder may not enact his judgments unless he is wielding his feybane weapon.
Fey Incunabula: The witchfinder adds his Wisdom in addition to his Intelligence modifier on skill checks made to identify the weaknesses of fey, outsiders, arcanists, animated and summoned creatures, and on Spellcraft skill checks made to identify arcane spells as they are being cast. (This replaces Monster Lore)
Steel Mind: Witchfinders have trained their thinking to counteract the wiles and tricks of the fey. A witchfinder gains a morale bonus on all saves against sleep, confusion and any other mind-affecting spell/ability equal to +1 for every three levels he possesses (minimum +1) (This ability replaces the inquisitor ability Stern Gaze.)
Trace essence: When following tracks, the witchfinder gains a bonus on all knowledge arcana checks made to identify auras and ongoing spell effects equal to 1/2 level. (This ability replaces Track.)
FeybaneWeapon(Ex): At 1st level the witchfinder is proficient with one type of exotic or martial melee weapon; that weapon is his feybane weapon. If the witchfinder’s deity’s favoured weapon is a martial or exotic melee weapon he may nominate it as his feybane weapon instead. This is a masterwork weapon and the witchfinderbegins with one at no cost. (This replaces medium armor/shield and missile weapon proficiencies)
Patron: In the darkest corners of the multiverse are Patrons who will aid even a witchfinder in his pursuits. A witchfinder chooses a Patron as a witch, and adds his patron spells to his spell list. These are cast as divine spells. Patrons that complement the Witchfinder multiclass archetype are:ancestors, endurance, occult, strength, wisdom, and vengeance. It is strongly recommended that the witchfinder be limited to these choices, however it is up to the GM to allow other Patrons the player may wish to choose. (This ability replaces the inquisitor abilities solo tactics, cunning initiative.)
Hexes: At 3rd level, a witch gains one hex of his choice. He gains an additional hex every 3 levels. A witchfinder cannot select an individual hex more than once. Hexes are otherwise as for the witch except as specified under Judgment and with the following new witchfinder hex (replacing cauldron and coven). (This ability replaces teamwork feat.)
Hex: Trail Bite (Su)
This ability affects a foe, regardless of distance, that a witchfinder has successfully discerned with track or trace essence. Utilising sympathetic magic, the witchfinder applies damage to the found creature as if with a successful attack with his feybane weapon, including any bane or greater bane powers. This ability may only be used against the same creature once every 24 hours. Likewise, damage sustained from this attack may not be healed for the same period, unless the witchfinder is incapacitated or slain.
Discern lies: As inquisitor.
Witchfinder’s Mark: At 3rd level the witchfinder may, with a move action, choose one enemy to mark during combat. That enemy receives a -1 penalty to saving throws made to reduce effects or damage of attacks.
At 6th level the penalty increases to -2, at 9th level the mark can be placed as a swift action and the penalty increase to -3, and at 12th level the penalty increases to -4. The mark lasts until the end of the combat or the creature is slain. As a swift action the witchfinder may change the mark to a new creature. The witchfinder’s mark does not stack with the saving throw penalty of the eye bite hex.(This ability replaces stalwart)
Feybane (Su): This functions as bane, but only when the witchfinder is wielding his feybaneweapon.
Second Judgment. As inquisitor.
Greater Feybane (Su): As Feybane.
Major hex. At 12th level, the witchfinder may choose a major hex. This ability replaces the inquisitor ability exploit weakness.
Third Judgment. As inquisitor.
Slayer: As inquisitor.
True Judgment: as inquisitor.
1st Inquisition, Judgment, Fey incunabula, Steel mind, Patron, Versatile casting, Feybane weapon
2nd Essence trace
3rd Witchfinder’s Mark,Hex
4th Judgment 2/day
5th Feybane, Discern lies
6th Hex
7th Judgment 3/day
8th Second Judgment
9th Hex
10th Judgment 4/day
11th
12th Greater Feybane, major hex
13th Judgment 5/day
14th
15th Hex
16th Judgment 6/day, Third Judgment
17th Slayer
18th Hex
19th Judgment 7/day
20th True Judgment
Can we get a couple of lines for a 'flavor blurb' on the witchfinder?
Otherwise, looking alright, if a bit front-heavy. Might want to move something up to second level? Don't know what could be moved, though. I'll run it through a couple of playtests this weekend, I should be able to snag a couple players to help out.
@re Witchfinder: Yep, i see what you mean. Could move fey incunabula and steel mind and maybe patron (they seem thematically linked) to second level. I think the inquisition/judgment abilities should start at first level.
Flavour text: "The witchfinder utilizes the very tricks of those he hunts to bring them to their judgment. To best combat dark practices one requires the aid of dark pacts, but woe betide the witchfinder who blurs the line between ardent execution of duty and fervent desire for power."
Good work guys, and I like the Eldritch Hunter better than Eldritch Fletcher. Still don't have time to contribute more than these paltry words. :(
Re: Witchfinder
My notes on the Witchfinder, take them for what you will.
Fey Incunabula seems oddly named. Partially because pretty much no one without acess to Google will know what an "incunabula" is and, those that do, note that this ability/class don't require any sort of books. If Inquisitors required a spellbook, it would seem to make more sense to me. Also, by calling it fey incunabula, you expect interaction with fey. Outsiders, animated and summoned creatures don't have a whole lots to do with fey. Also, "arcanist", to my knowledge, isn't a defined game term. Do you mean anything that casts an arcane spell? If so, you pretty much mean anything above CR 8. If you mean creatures who have taken levels in an arcane class or are granted spells as per an arcane class (such as a dragon gaining sorcerer progression), then you will need to define that, but I'm not sure why it's easier for the Witchfinder to indentify an elf in wizard robes as an elf, than an elf in studded leather. I do like the bonus to Spellcraft though.
Trace Essence doesn't make much rules sense to me. Auras and ongoing effects don't leave residual effects in places currently. If you want to add rules for "tracking by aura" you are going to have to spell all of those out here. Otherwise the two abilities are unrelated. As currently written, your Witchfinder could be tracking a herd of deer and gain the bonus to identifying the spell effects of some wizard waiting in ambush.
Suggestion: "When following the tracks of a creature identified by the fey incunabula ability, the witchfinder gains..."
Patron: Go ahead and explicitly limit the class to the patrons listed and then put in the following sentence: "Additional patron options may be available at the GM's discretion." As written, there is nothing really in the rules that limits me as a player from picking whatever patrons I want. Strong recommendations are not something I've seen in a Paizo book yet.
Hex: Just say "A Witchfinder cannot select the following hexes: cauldron and coven" rather than having the new hex replace old hexes.
Trail Bite: I guess I just really don't understand this ability. So I track a thing and then, regardless of how far away it is, what its AC/defenses are, I automatically deal my full weapon damage to it? I'm playing right now with a fighter who, in a single swing, can deal like 150 damage. That kills any similarly leveled arcane caster. His limitation is that he has to be in melee range, get past all the defenses of the caster and not get chewed up by spells/minions. With this ability, he just spends a standard action and kills him. Done. Also, if this doesn't kill the unfortunate caster, he can't heal it, even with wish. I don't know how to make this not incredibly overpowered, but, where I playing a witchfinder, I know that this would be the very first hex I take.
Witchfinder's Mark needs some sort of save. It also probably needs to be a (Su) ability. The evil eye hex this seems to be similar to has a will save to reduce the duration and has the limitation of being a mind-affecting effect. Also, why not just make this a new hex?
All that said, I really like the idea behind this class and really like where it is going (and, when it's finished have the perfect place for it in my homebrew world). It just seems to need some rules polishing.
I try as hard as I can to think like a rules-lawyering power-gamer when I review new classes. How can I break this? Where are the loopholes? I'm sure there might be some ability/feat interactions that I've not considered (just as I'm sure there are lots of ability/feat combinations that break the Hidden Guardian), but there still seems to be a few iterations to go on some of those abilities to get it table ready.
First- 150 damage from a SINGLE ATTACK WITH A FIGHTER. Wow, wait, what? What, 110 Str and a +XX flaming/shocking/freezing weapon? :P
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Second, on the rules noted:
I believe he was referring to the standard, say, 1d8+whatever of a bow or such, but you're right. It should require a save and maybe a more specific range/damage.
And Witchfinder's Mark not requiring a save itself should be fine- it's okay to break such rules at some points. If we DO add a save, then making such similar to Bestow Curse would be best. Maybe make it so it only applies to effects from the Witchfinder, instead or as well.
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Finally, on the other notes; Arcanist is a term used sporadically in the game, if undefined. Was in 3.6 as well, though I believe they did define it at one point- I'll take a peek later on to see what it said. But I'd say leaving this one to the GM is pretty much fine, as it IS up to them in the end- or, rather, leaving it to whoever edits this into proper game terms, which comes later on. Same with the 'strong recommendation' (( Also, not EVERYTHING over CR 8 uses arcane forces. Not even in the Forgotten Realms settings of ol' 3.5. ))
Also, Recommendations such as that are, indeed, seen sporadically in Pathfinder. See: Mysteries, Eidolon, and perhaps most closely, Broodmaster.
The point being, right now we need to test and see how the class works. Editing it into a polished and shiny version usually waits until we've something that can be played in the first place :P So don't nitpick, stick to the rules stuff, dood. ^^
@re witchfinder: thanx mauril, raiderrpg.
Mauril: I agree re "fey" incunabula. Ever since 1e unearthed arcana came out i wanted to write my own - esoteric incunabula. I shied off esoteric here out of deference to raiderrpg's Esoteric Chemist. Perhaps i shouldn't have. As for "incunabula" i don't see that books are required per se, just prior research, nor should a ride in the googlemobile. Just a dictionary - rpgs excel in broadening our vocabulary after all.
Witchfinder's Mark replaces stalwart, don't want to waste a hex choice on it. Mechanic-wise i agree could be tweaked - raider's idea of only against witchfinder's abilities is a good one, but i don't want to gimp it completely.
Trace essence: i replaced my original with flak's idea of auras et al, but really wanted something that could trace opponents lingering essence of whatever kind.
Trail bite:I'm not seeing 150 damage, but at highest echelons, who knows. Saves etc? Sounds good. And if it still appeals, and players want to choose it first then i know i've done my job bringing the theme to life.
Hexes: ok. I'll look at the wording.
Patron: i'm happy with that as it is.
As for rules lawyering power gamers and loophole hunters: i detect them as a supernatural ability and Banish wherever possible. Having said that you have a good approach, one at complete variance to mine. I guess i try to make thematic abilities, tweak them so they aren't broken WITH the THEME in mind, NOT the aforementioned power gamers. Let them play pc games where the roleplaying is non-existent and power is the key to finishing gameplay. Even with any rule-as-written, the social- or even play-experience- contract should demand an easy give and take between player and gm re determining relative levels of balance.
Overall though, thanx for your input! :)
@raiderrpg: thanx for references re: recommendations and use of arcane. (and sticking to mechanix)
As for rules lawyering power gamers and loophole hunters: i detect them as a supernatural ability and Banish wherever possible. Having said that you have a good approach, one at complete variance to mine. I guess i try to make thematic abilities, tweak them so they aren't broken WITH the THEME in mind, NOT the aforementioned power gamers. Let them play pc games where the roleplaying is non-existent and power is the key to finishing gameplay. Even with any rule-as-written, the social- or even play-experience- contract should demand an easy give and take between player and gm re determining relative levels of balance.
I have another gaming associate that I make homebrew stuff with all the time. He takes a similar tack that you do, which is all well and good, until it meets players. I completely understand that you can't rules down everything and that there will always be things that are missed, but I don't want to have to rely on people that have never met me trying to decipher my RAI. If I was only making stuff for the guys at my table to play with, I'd worry less about things, since I'd be there to explain anything I missed or worded poorly. However, in the stuff that I expect to be taken to a broad audience (let alone the stuff I expect to get published), I make sure to tighten it down as much as possible.
Theme is hugely important to selecting and designing abilities. Theme is hugely important to developing interesting mechanics, but if I want to keep players into that theme, I need to make sure that the rules back up what I mean.
Re: incunabula - It's just hard to say. *smirk*
@mauril: it's not that i'm not worried about explicity, just that that isn't where i come from. And i'm glad that's all well and good. I'm ultimately looking for balance and compatibility/playability like everyone else here. So when it DOES meet players out there it's as tight as it can be. Otherwise i'd just leave it for my table.
Incunabula: i know, i always want to say/spell it incAnabula. %^)
Limiting ourselves to only one or two custom mechanics per archetype is also highly encouraged. Feel free to scavenge from other archetypes, though, as I did when I wholesale took abilities from the Honor Guard and Sacred Shield when I did the Adamant Interceptor, which I have in the playtest phase right now with some of Elghinn's suggestions.
Try not to pigeonhole your player-base with overly specific archetyping. A thug can be a pirate, or a #2 dandy knee-breaker, or a dirty racketeer. If you can't come up with at least three different interpretations of your archetype within the flavor provided, it's probably too narrow.
@purplefixer: thanx for the advice!
@benkalas
A very first impression after a quick read of you pdf.
Very interesting project except for one things: they are not Archetypes but an Alternate (Multi)Classes
However as soon as i have more time i read more depht the pdf and the two topic
Thanx for your interest. I must heartily disagree with you re: definition. Just as monks can be drunken masters or ki mystics, so could a rogue/inquisitor be a gang enforcer or a hitman, and a bard/cleric could be a temple dancer or a holy songstress, an inquisitor/fighter could be a soldier of fortune or a shrineguard etc. We are only presenting one possible Archetype for each of these Multiclass options - there are many many more to discover and create.
Phew! All core mcas table-formatted on the wiki (except swordmage).Still need some editing... Will get to APGs next.
@ witchfinder. I'll have another crack with mauril and raiderrpg's suggestions. Witchfinder 2.5 coming soon!
SPEAKING of Swordmage... can we get a final vote on that, already, people? :P
@swordmage: just looked it over on first page of this thread. Looks good, I vote it IN.
SPEAKING of Swordmage... can we get a final vote on that, already, people? :P
Do I get a vote? If so, I vote IN, with reservations.
Swordmage notes.
They get light armor proficiency at level 1, but can't actually cast in it until level 5. So, either they can't use a level 1 ability until level 5, or they have to suffer 5-20% ASF for 5 levels (or through those levels where 2 or 3 points of AC make a huge difference).
Bonded Focus: You might mention explicitly that the bonded item's ability to grant a bonus spell per day doesn't consume an unused spell slot. The wording could possibly imply that it does (though I would not interpret it that way) due to this line: "This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the swordmage..." A very strict GM might make it use an unused spell slot, which would make the ability effectively useless, so don't leave that option open.
Does the "hold a charge ability" mean you attack a touch AC with the weapon and just deal the spell damage/effect? Does it target normal AC (like weapons with Spell Storing would)? Does it deal the normal weapon damage too? That might need to be clarified.
Weapon Focus: Why do they get this? Nothing unblanced, I just don't get it.
Bloodline Manifestation: By the rules, your sorcerer never actually gains a bloodline. If this 7th level ability is supposed to grant a bloodline, how are they getting bonus spells at level 3 and level 5? You might need to include a level 1 ability that gives them a bloodline for the purposes of skill and spells and then alter it with this ability at level 7.
Casting Reflexes: Does casting this spell provoke an AoO? It shouldn't, I think, so you might mention that.
Furious Spellcasting: This seems incredibly weak as a capstone to me. Magi get this ability, as often as they want to use it, at 1st level.
Also, you give two abilities one level, and then none the next, then two abilities, then none. Paizo has made it a pretty standard practice to avoid dead levels whenever possible. If you can, I'd try to shift some of the abilities forward or back by a single level so that you get something every level (or almost every level).
They get light armor proficiency at level 1, but can't actually cast in it until level 5. So, either they can't use a level 1 ability until level 5, or they have to suffer 5-20% ASF for 5 levels (or through those levels where 2 or 3 points of AC make a huge difference).
This matter's already been discussed, I believe.
Bonded Focus: You might mention explicitly that the bonded item's ability to grant a bonus spell per day doesn't consume an unused spell slot. The wording could possibly imply that it does (though I would not interpret it that way) due to this line: "This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the swordmage..." A very strict GM might make it use an unused spell slot, which would make the ability effectively useless, so don't leave that option open.
From the PRD:
Doesn't need to mention a spell slot, there. At any rate, this comes under 'fancying up', which can be done once the design itself is in and we're ready to drop in rules terms to make sure it follows RAI.
Weapon Focus: Why do they get this? Nothing unblanced, I just don't get it.
What?
Bloodline Manifestation: By the rules, your sorcerer never actually gains a bloodline. If this 7th level ability is supposed to grant a bloodline, how are they getting bonus spells at level 3 and level 5? You might need to include a level 1 ability that gives them a bloodline for the purposes of skill and spells and then alter it with this ability at level 7.
Um... All sorcerers pick a bloodline. That's, kinda... well, part of the class? I don't see where in the post it says 'the swordmage does not get a bloodline'.
Do you, perhaps, mean to add this bit from under the sorcerer description?
(( Followed by yada yada, the progression, etc. }}
I prefer to leave such specific matters to the fancy-ing person, but yes, that or similar would be in there, I'm sure.
Casting Reflexes: Does casting this spell provoke an AoO? It shouldn't, I think, so you might mention that.
No, it doesn't. I don't think there's anything anywhere about an AoO replacement causing another AoO, so it'd just be spare matter for a player to dreg throught to add it, I think. Kinda like adding 'This bonus applies to thrown daggers' to Weapon Focus (dagger) :P
Furious Spellcasting: This seems incredibly weak as a capstone to me. Magi get this ability, as often as they want to use it, at 1st level.
... Double what?
Also, you give two abilities one level, and then none the next, then two abilities, then none. Paizo has made it a pretty standard practice to avoid dead levels whenever possible. If you can, I'd try to shift some of the abilities forward or back by a single level so that you get something every level (or almost every level).
First, see: Cleric. Second, see: Sorcerer. Sorry, but- I really don't see where you're going with this. They get spell levels at every even but 2 and 20, and hey, just that works for the standard sorcerer.
Swordmage = Stuff
Notes:
-Sidenote: Swordmage is merely the most common name. Axemage, Clubmage, even Glaivemage all work equally well.
Was 'battlemage' taken? I like swords. So I like swordmage. Just a question.
Primary: Sorcerer
Secondary: Fighter
HD: D8
Saves: Good Fort, Good Will
Skills: 2+Int
Bonus Skills: Sorcerer+Bloodline skill. Select three additional fighter skills.
Secondary BAB, like it. Standard on the skillset, correct, correct, right, good! ^.^
Weapons: Simple. Select one Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Swordmages are proficient with Light Armor.
WRONG! Not a limitation! This should be simple and martial weapons and light armor proficiency, period. NO choice for a single exotic. A single exotic weapon proficiency is not a limitation, it is a bonus feat. (Literally. Exotic Weapon Proficiency. In this case, without the prerequisite even!)
Limited Cantrips: At first level, the Swordmage learns the cantrips Detect Magic, Mending, and Light, and may use them at will. He learns no other cantrips as he grows in level. This ability replaces Cantrips.
Why? What's wrong with letting him pick his own cantrips?
Diminished Spellcasting: 1 less spell slot per level per day, and one less spell known.
*thumbsup*
Arcane Focus: Swordmages form a powerful bond with their weapon in place of their first level bloodline power, and begin play with one of their choice at no cost. The weapon is always of masterwork quality, but is not made of any special material. If a swordmage attempts to cast a spell without her bonded weapon in hand, she must make a concentration check (DC 20 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. A bonded weapon can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the swordmage knows and is capable of casting, including bloodline spells. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the swordmage, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the swordmage’s level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. ((-Good so far.))The weapon maintains an Aura detectable by Detect Magic and similiar spells, at a strength determined by the Swordmage's caster level. ((-Okay. Good.))
If at any time the Swordmage's Arcane Focus has at least a +1 enhancement bonus (whether crafted as such or by the Magic Weapon spell), it gains the Spell Storing special quality. Only the Swordmage can cast spells into his Arcane Focus. ((-This should be a class feature of it's own. J2))
A swordmage can also add additional magic abilities to her bonded weapon as if she has the required item creation feats and if she meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a swordmage with a bonded longsword must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the longsword (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Chapter 5 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook). The magic properties of a bonded weapon, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the swordmage who owns it. If a bonded weapon’s owner dies, or the item is replaced, the sword reverts to being an ordinary masterwork weapon of the appropriate type.
If a bonded weapon is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the swordmage rests to regain her spells. If the weapon is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per swordmage level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. Items replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded item. ((-It wasn't masterwork at first level...))A swordmage can designate an existing magic weapon as her bonded item. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed item except that the new magic item retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded weapon.
This ability replaces the first bloodline power.
((-Do not like. Can we spread this ability out so that at first level it's just the penalty, at third level it gains the bonus spell, and at fifth it can be enchanted?))Bonded Focus: The Swordmage gains their choice of Weapon Focus, Arcane Strike, or Combat Casting as a bonus feat. In addition, a swordmage counts 1/2 his total class level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has a similar ability from another class, these abilities stack.
((-"Similar Ability" can be removed. Otherwise = Good... except... What is this replacing?))This replaces the Bloodline power normally gained at 3rd level.
((-The whole bloodline at this point? Ouch. This looks very much like a non-bloodline sorcerer. Also: Mauril is right, make sure you write in 'bloodline' in the first level line of stuff.))Light Armor (Ex): At 5th level, a swordmage may select to cast arcane and bloodline spells without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance only if she is wearing light or no armor. A swordmage wearing medium armor, heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. ((... This is fine. Before 5th level they need to rely on Mage Armor, okay.))
This replaces the Bloodline power normally gained at 5th level.
((- Ouch. >.<))Bloodline Manifestation: The Swordmage gains a bloodline power that he could have gained at a previous level. Alternatively, he may select a feat from his Bloodline Feat list.
This replaces the Bloodline feats normally gained at 7th, 13th, and 19th level. ((-O.O IT DOES!?))
Combat Readiness: At ninth level, whenever the Swordmage rolls for initiative, they may cast a single spell of up to 3rd level as a free action. This spell must only target the swordmage, and they must have any required focus or expensive material components in hand.
This replaces the Bloodline power normally gained at 9th level.
((-Except for what it replaces, this is nice.))Casting Reflexes: At fifteenth level, the Swordmage has honed his reflexes and speed of casting far beyond the ordinary sorcerer. Any time the Swordmage would make an attack of opportunity, they may elect to cast a single touch range spell upon the target instead. They must have one hand free to cast. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to 3+charisma modifier.
Even if the swordmage has the combat reflexes feat, they may only cast one spell in this way each round.
This replaces the Bloodline power normally gained at 15th level.
((-Nice. Except for the same comment I've made before, but you get it at this point... "I don't like replacing the bloodline".))Arcane Assault: At twentieth level, the swordmage may spend a spell slot of any level while making a full attack. Doing so adds a bonus to each attack roll equal to the spell level. (i.e, a third level spell dropped equals a +3 bonus to each attack made that round.) In addition, one of the attacks made deals additional damage equal to the spell level. This choice can be made after the attack roll, but before the result is announced. (i.e, that third level spell adds a +3 to damage for one of those attacks.) This ability may be used up to three times per day.
This replaces the bloodline power normally gained at twentieth level.
((-This seems very weak for a capstone. Needs work.))Needs to be written up fancy-like still, but I think this should do it. Seems balanced in random playtesting- level 10 version handled two gynosphinx with minor difficulty and managed my usual multi-ogre test, but level 20 lost out against a Shoggoth. That Combat Readiness letting him toss a turn one combination of Haste and Greater Heroism helped a lot, though.
Okay, here goes:
From the Core Rulebook, 4th Printing: Sorcerer
1st: (Bloodline), Bloodline power, cantrips, eschew materials, 1st spells
2nd: *NOTHING* (-.-)
3rd: Bloodline power, bloodline spell
4th: 2nd Spells
5th: Bloodline Spell
6th: 3rd Spells
7th: Bloodline Feat, Bloodline Spell
8th: 4th spells
9th: Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell
10th: 5th Spells
11th: Bloodline Spell
12th: 6th spells
13th: Bloodline Feat, Bloodline Spell
14th: 7th spells
15th: Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell
16th: 8th spells
17th: Bloodline Spell
18th: 9th spells
19th: Bloodline Feat, Bloodline Spell
20th: Bloodline Power
This class seems like a PRIME candidate for the Dragon Disciple prestige class, and should be treated as if he's going into it ASAP. It's the obvious choice. Why wouldn't you take bonuses to caster level, strength, and attack power over NOT having bonuses to caster level, strength, and attack power?
My suggestions:
Swordmage:
1st: (Bloodline), Bloodline Power, Diminished Casting, Cantrips, Eschew Materials, Bonded Weapon (Concentration)
2nd: Bonded Weapon (Bonus Spell)
3rd: Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell
4th: Bonded Weapon (Spell Storing)
5th: Armored Casting *Replaces Lost Spell Known*
6th: Martial Training (Fighter Level = 1/2) *Replaces 5th & 9th & 13th BL Spell*
7th: Bonded Weapon (Enchantment) *Replaces feat*, Bloodline Spell
8th: -
9th: Bloodline Power
10th: Combat Readiness *Diminished Casting*
11th: Bloodline Spell
12th: -
13th: Bloodline Feat
14th: Casting Reflex *Diminished Casting*
15th: Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell
16th: -
17th: Bloodline Spell
18th: -
19th: Bloodline Feat, Bloodline Spell
20th: Bloodline Power
Custom casting tree should have -2 spells per level, and -1 spell known at each level.
1st: 1
2nd: 2
3rd: 3
4th: 4/1
5th: 4/2
6th: 4/3/1
7th: 4/4/2
8th: 4/4/2/1
9th: 4/4/4/2
10th: 4/4/4/3/1
11th: 4/4/4/4/2
12th: 4/4/4/4/3/1
13th: 4/4/4/4/4/2
14th: 4/4/4/4/4/3/1
15th: 4/4/4/4/4/4/2
16th: 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/1
17th: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/2
18th: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/1
19th: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/2
20th: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4
Like so.
I am INCLINED to add in: "No CL Increase" at 8, 12, 16, and 18 just because Full CL with 9th level casting makes me twitch. I'm also inclined to give 0 first level spells at level 1 and delay the entire progression by one level, for balance sake, but I'll leave that decision till after playtesting. This combination that doesn't sacrifice spell levels could make a KILLER Ray-Mage. Or as noted: Dragon Disciple.
With the feat, Bonded Weapon is paying for itself in installments.
Swordmage Mechanical Thoughts:
BAB = Fighter 9/Sorcerer 11
Saves = BOTH 20
CL = Full
Skills = Better than either, but not as good as Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19
What are you giving up?
Sorcerer: Very little versatility; by 20 = 18 spells per day (of 54), 12 spells known (of 34). ...
Profit?
Sorcerer: Very little versatility; by 20 = 18 spells per day (of 54), 12 spells known (of 34). ...
Wait giving up 2/3 of your spell slots and almost 2/3 of your spells known isn't a big tradeoff? We're not talking wizards who can just pay trivial amounts to get the spells again... We're talking permanent, drastic cuts.
(This is not the Flak you're looking for!)
Right, I- honestly have no idea what Purple was on throughout his post, except that I honestly couldn't understand most of it; so I'm gonna just hit at the main points that do actually seem viable concerns, and ignore the crazy 'drop over half spells' for now.
On the Martial/Exotic; YES, actually, it IS a restriction. See: Cleric and Favored Weapon, btw, for an example of such.
First, on Dragon Disciple- compare Fighter4/Sorcerer1/Dragon10 to Swordmage5/Dragon10. DD1 (Fighter/Sorcerer) has more feats, less spells, better BAB. DD2 (Swordmage/DD) would have slightly more caster level and spells, and be able to cast in light armor. Seems slightly boosted on the latter, but not too horribly; and they would still be suffering from the Diminished Casting. So I say fair, on that. Unless someone can toss a build up that breaks the combination before level 15?
Also, the Bloodline isn't replaced; they have all the bloodline spells and three chances to grab bloodline powers. It's just been pushed on back
Now can we stop jabbering? Mauril, Purple, please read the class again. It's obvious both of you are merely skimming it at this point.
Alright, people, looking over matters... we need some organization up in this biz!
We're slowing down based on being 'perfectionists' or continuously going over the same classes again and again, and without anyone doing the fancy-ing.
So here's what I propose. Let's stop effing around and use the wiki for this nitpicky part. We can post the 'playable but contested' stuff up under a seperate page, then stop dwelling on it here. Then once Flak is fully back and we're all through the remaining Core MCA Archetypes, we can can get back to these ones we're stuck on.
Basically, clean slate, we get moving. Let's each of us (myself, purple, OSW, Cartmanbeck if he's around?) grab a fresh Core MCA that needs work and try to get it ready and working within ten days. We'll just do the simple stuff; whip up a custom little treat for each, switch the switching that needs switching, and boom.
It's risky in that we can get bogged down all over again, but frankly, we NEED to get this moving again. Over the last month we've been incredibly slowed down.
So whaddya all say?
@raiderrpg: I wholeheartedly agree that some organisation is needed. My thoughts run thus:
Personally i'd like to get witchfinder over the line (so close, no matter how far...) just for some closure. After that i'm committing to no new mcas until i finish formatting the APG mca's. (at 20-30 mins each that's still about 12 hours data entry kiddies, and this ol' wolf got a job an' a family, so this ain't no joyride. It's because i believe in the project, the process and the contributors!) in fact i'm actively NOT entertaining new mcas ( GO away shrineguard! :p) and will quietly work away on the dusty temple dancer in my own time. EDIT: i meant no shiny brand new mcas. I'm still up for restyling divine mage for the core.
I'd really for the "old hands" to chip in and rustle up finishes on the core, but i won't mind admitting i think the current slowdown could continue. Such are the vagaries of "volunteerism" i guess. :p
I also think to ask new folk to do the same is unfair, though some have offered... I REALLY want to finish what we have before moving on. My head hurts when i think of what we have IMHO "almost" achieved. (remember, imhO, don't wanna see this quoted anywhere).
As for when the gears get rolling again i would drop down to two new mcas at a time, hope that even if peeps don't grok a particlar mca they can constructively critique and review. That way we can improve turnover, and say to new folk: wait a bit bub, we'll just finish the Shoggoth Slayer or the Free-willed Wightlord and we'll help with your Patient Scholar. OSW out.
They get light armor proficiency at level 1, but can't actually cast in it until level 5. So, either they can't use a level 1 ability until level 5, or they have to suffer 5-20% ASF for 5 levels (or through those levels where 2 or 3 points of AC make a huge difference).This matter's already been discussed, I believe.
I guess I missed this discussion. Can you point it out to me or explain what the conclusion was? I'd like to make sure in the future to not rehash things that are already being discussed.
Bonded Focus: You might mention explicitly that the bonded item's ability to grant a bonus spell per day doesn't consume an unused spell slot. The wording could possibly imply that it does (though I would not interpret it that way) due to this line: "This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the swordmage..." A very strict GM might make it use an unused spell slot, which would make the ability effectively useless, so don't leave that option open.From the PRD:
** spoiler omitted **
Doesn't need to mention a spell slot, there. At any rate, this comes under 'fancying up', which can be done once the design itself is in and we're ready to drop in rules terms to make sure it follows RAI.
I didn't realize there was a "fancying up" stage that was separate. That doesn't change the fact that the bonded item doesn't, by RAW, do nothing for the sorcerer. I've always seen it as a poor bit of wording for the sorcerer. The bonded object works on spells in a spellbook and sorcerers don't have spellbooks. I understand the RAI, but RAW could be clarified. Fancying up stage or not, it could use clarification.
Weapon Focus: Why do they get this? Nothing unblanced, I just don't get it.What?
I just don't get why they get this feat. It doesn't really have any flavor tied to it. It's not a bad choice; I just don't get it.
Bloodline Manifestation: By the rules, your sorcerer never actually gains a bloodline. If this 7th level ability is supposed to grant a bloodline, how are they getting bonus spells at level 3 and level 5? You might need to include a level 1 ability that gives them a bloodline for the purposes of skill and spells and then alter it with this ability at level 7.]Um... All sorcerers pick a bloodline. That's, kinda... well, part of the class? I don't see where in the post it says 'the swordmage does not get a bloodline'.
Do you, perhaps, mean to add this bit from under the sorcerer description?
PRD Bloodline stuffs:
Bloodline: Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. For example, a sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. Regardless of the source, this influence manifests in a number of ways as the sorcerer gains levels. A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.
(( Followed by yada yada, the progression, etc. }}
I prefer to leave such specific matters to the fancy-ing person, but yes, that or similar would be in there, I'm sure.
Well, sorcerers do get something that says that they gain a bloodline. As this class is a Swordmage, and not a sorcerer (though one of its components is a sorcerer) that class ability needs to be included or it doesn't get it. It's implied, but it doesn't get it.
Casting Reflexes: Does casting this spell provoke an AoO? It shouldn't, I think, so you might mention that.No, it doesn't. I don't think there's anything anywhere about an AoO replacement causing another AoO, so it'd just be spare matter for a player to dreg throught to add it, I think. Kinda like adding 'This bonus applies to thrown daggers' to Weapon Focus (dagger) :P
Actually there are things. You can replace an AoO with a trip/sunder/disarm attempt. If you try to do so without having the Improved Trip/Sunder/Disarm feat(whichever is relevant) it provokes an AoO. Spells always provoke, unless they are swift, immediate or free actions. Attacks of Opportunity are sort of their own action (much to the chagrin of myself and most rules lawyers) which is never defined. As a rules clarification you need to spell out that casting this spell doesn't provoke.
Call it fancying or whatever, but it needs to be clarified.
Furious Spellcasting: This seems incredibly weak as a capstone to me. Magi get this ability, as often as they want to use it, at 1st level.... Double what?
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
So, as a full round action, the magus gets to full attack and cast any spell on his list. He takes a -2 to his weapon attacks and needs a hand free, but he can cast any standard action spell he has prepared. And he can do this as many times a day as he wants.
You ability, gained 19 levels later, drops the -2 to the attack rolls, doesn't need a free hand (so it can be done with a two handed weapon) and can cast any spell on the list, regardless of casting time. But he can only do it a three times per day (not even 3 + CHA times).
Only the casting time bit is useful and it's broken. As written, I can cast a 1 hour casting time spell as a full-round action and still swing my sword 3 times (assuming medium BAB to go with the d8 HD).
Do you see what I'm trying to say here? This ability needs to be altered. I like the flavor of it, but it comes too late to be useful and because of the lack of proper wording, parts of it are too powerful.
Also, you give two abilities one level, and then none the next, then two abilities, then none. Paizo has made it a pretty standard practice to avoid dead levels whenever possible. If you can, I'd try to shift some of the abilities forward or back by a single level so that you get something every level (or almost every level).First, see: Cleric. Second, see: Sorcerer. Sorry, but- I really don't see where you're going with this. They get spell levels at every even but 2 and 20, and hey, just that works for the standard sorcerer.
That's fair. But see every other class in the game. They pretty much get an ability every level or those abilities are meted out a little more evenly. 2-0-2-0-2-0-... can easily become 1-1-1-1-1-1-... and retain the same flavor and gain a little bit of something each level. It's not a class balance thing, but a preference thing. I was simply stating that it might be an idea to do so. Please note my wording that doing so is "standard practice...whenever possible" and that I was only offering a suggestion.
Now can we stop jabbering? Mauril, Purple, please read the class again. It's obvious both of you are merely skimming it at this point.
In fact, I spent about three hours reading, comparing and considering the implications of your class. I read each feature closely, which you then complained about because that was for the "fancying up" stage. I consider some of those class features in need of revision before it can even be properly playtested (e.g., the lack of bloodline and the brokenly under- and overpowered capstone).
You asked for suggestions, or I assumed that you wanted feedback, and so I offered it. I didn't realize that the intent was to publish first and then refine later. That seems wasteful to me. There would be lots of time spent on formatting things for publication that would end up getting changed and then need to be reformatted. Personally, I prefer things to get as close as I can to perfect before publishing. It saves me time in the long run.
As far as "slowing things down" goes, the goal shouldn't (IMHO) be to churn out things as fast as we can, but rather to make sure that whatever we turn out is a solid product. Quality over quantity and all that.
If that is not the intent of this design group, then I guess I am in the wrong place. I would love to work with other creatives like yourselves, but if we have completely different design goals and strategies then I am not sure if I am welcome here. I would like to be, but that is sort of up to the "old guard" and not really up to me.
Well, sorcerers do get something that says that they gain a bloodline. As this class is a Swordmage, and not a sorcerer (though one of its components is a sorcerer) that class ability needs to be included or it doesn't get it. It's implied, but it doesn't get it.
It's a sorcerer archetype. Try the MCA guidelines. There is a 'primary class' and a 'secondary class.' The secondary class is a guiding focus, the primary class is the base class being altered by the archetype. These are archetypes. These are archetypes. The sorcerer gets a bloodline unless otherwise specified.
(This is still not the Flak you're looking for.)
Oh, though I should say, I do prefer attention to detail and so on over "churning out" so please, Mauril, don't feel out of place. Raider just has very low patience for clarity ;)
Mauril... the current Swordmage doesn't HAVE Weapon Focus (( Edit: Unless you mean the Bonded Focus bonus feat? )) or Furious Casting.
On the AoO: I don't normally play a fighter-type, so I was unaware that you can replace AoO with trip and such as well. Good to know for the future, and I'll add the bit to the version I put up for Flak to polish.
As far as "slowing things down" goes, the goal shouldn't (IMHO) be to churn out things as fast as we can, but rather to make sure that whatever we turn out is a solid product. Quality over quantity and all that.
On the one hand, I more than agree- we need to maintain quality and balance. On the other, we're getting -too- bogged down on just a couple of classes. We need to care about quality, which is why we'll get back to these- I just think we should move on momentarily to things we can do quicker and easier, at least until Flak and/or Cartmanbeck can be here full-time.
In fact, I'll probably put up a core re-do tonight; something simple that needs doing.
-----
On another note; over most of the week, expect me to be in-and-out. I've another project that needs some immediate attention, but is mostly data entry and a few tests. I'll still try to make a couple posts per day, but don't expect anything high-speed from me besides that core re-do I just mentioned.
Oh, though I should say, I do prefer attention to detail and so on over "churning out" so please, Mauril, don't feel out of place. Raider just has very low patience for clarity ;)
This. xD It's very true, I do have low patience for some matters. I think you'll find I'm much more adaptable to changes -before- I get the concrete laid down, as well. <<;; We've all got our flaws, though, and it's true I've been a bit rough on you. Sorry for that.
Tell ya what; catch me on AIM sometime today, we can go over the swordmage things and riff for a moment, maybe figure out exactly what we're really differing on. Plus, I always find instant-speak to be a bit easier as far as talkin' over matters, as I'm sure Purple, Flak, and OSW can confirm xP
LAST TIME I'M POSTING IT IN THIS THREAD OH MYSTRA THE SPAAAAAAAAAAM
Mauril... the current Swordmage doesn't HAVE Weapon Focus (( Edit: Unless you mean the Bonded Focus bonus feat? )) or Furious Casting.
Where is the current one? I was basing my notes on the one posted earlier in this thread (one page 1).