I've been poking around this forum for the last couple of days to get some ideas about running this AP (the Obit and Fey/Grig prank thread have been my favorites). This is going to be the first module I've run, so I'm a bit nervous. I love the sandbox nature of the campaign and the last fantasy campaign I ran was similar, but I'm used to knowing the ins and outs of the world my players are taking part in, so I'm feeling a bit off-kilter.
So, I turn to you guys...the more experienced runners of this AP. Any suggestions for making the campaign as smooth as possible? Are there things specific to the AP to avoid that work well on paper but not really in practice? Are there traps and pitfalls to avoid that bog the campaign down? Player complaints to keep in mind, aside from the reward for rare radishes?
Maybe some of these questions are in the materials and I'll be rereading it over the next couple of days, but here goes:
1) When did you work in the wanted poster/side quests, such as the aforementioned radishes? Did you make the players aware of the "wanted posters" from the get go or did you stagger them as your sessions went on?
2) This one may be clarified as I reread the material. I know that the Stolen Lands is separated into six parts and the first couple of parts (Oleg's and the Bandit Camp) work well back to back. Did you push your players to the Kobold camp or Sycamore tree? I read that the the mites stole treasure that the kobolds stole from the bandits, so that could provide an in. How did you handle these transitions?
3) Outside of increased HP and numbers to account for higher point buys or larger groups, did you make any particular changes to the scripted encounters or locations that you felt made for a better player experience?
I'm running a group of 4 or 5 players, one of which is new to pen and paper RPGs. They all did a 15 point buy system and may or may not have a wizard/sorcerer, depending on whether or not the 5th player shows.
I'll continue digging around the forum, but it'd be nice to have suggestions and responses in one place.
Thanks in advance.
I just finished the second book of the AP with mostly veteran players last weekend.
As for your questions,
1. I started with 2 posters, and added one new one every time the PCs came back to Oleg's. (Pretty sure I started with Radishes and the boar, adding Bandits the next day when the guards came and so on.)
2. The players stumbled on the Kobold lair first since this group decided to clear most of the plains first. For this particular encounter (the Kobold/Mite War) I ran it almost exactly by the book. They entered the hex from the east and found the entrance.
3. Because I had 2 relatively new players (1 of them a 4e/NWoD vet, the other a complete RPG newbie.) I let them use 25 pt. buys.
The Kingmaker AP, imo, runs best with 20 pt. buys, esp if you're new.
Because they're running with 6, I used the extremely helpful guide to running Kingmaker with 6 PCs that is also here on this forum. (My party consists of a Gnome Cleric of Sarenrae, Human Conjurer Wizard, Half-elf Switch-hitter Ranger, Elf TWF Rogue, Halfling Diplomancer Bard and Dwarf Sword and Board Fighter)
I had very few problems challenging the party. Between Grizzlies and a random bandits with Longbows, even with the 25pt. buys there were a lot of forays into the negative HPs for the group. The fight with the Stag Lord left half the group at negative, one at -9. One nearly got eaten by the big bug at the bottom of the mite lair, and if it wasn't for DM fiat, would have been.
Lastly, you probably got this from the Obit thread, but make sure you emphasize the need to RUN AWAY when your players see trolls.
One thing I did was make the Radish patch kobolds a different, smaller tribe. I put their hex on the one with the dead trapper and switched it so that the kobolds killed him instead of the fey. (They also switched the traps around in the trap-filled hex.) My PCs REALLY wanted to kill some kobolds as well as help some, so this worked pretty well.
If you have the time, adding extra things makes for a nice touch.
(I also added mountain lions and a few other things to the random tables and added a ruin with a basilisk, put an outcast ogre in the mine and had a Displacer Beast stalk the PCs for a time too.)
Excellent, and thanks for responding!
1. I started with 2 posters, and added one new one every time the PCs came back to Oleg's. (Pretty sure I started with Radishes and the boar, adding Bandits the next day when the guards came and so on.)
This is what I had in mind after doing some more reading, though I like the idea of adding more as they make more trips back to Oleg's. I also thought about having non-hostile NPCs that they encounter make mention of seeing something about "this or that" back at Oleg's as they passed through. I'm trying to think of ways of making sure the players remember to make trips back and use it as a base of operations.
2. The players stumbled on the Kobold lair first since this group decided to clear most of the plains first. For this particular encounter (the Kobold/Mite War) I ran it almost exactly by the book. They entered the hex from the east and found the entrance.
As I mentioned in my other post, assuming my players go to the bandit camp after the initial encounter at Oleg's, I'm leaning towards having a captured bandit tell them about the kobold's theft, which can then lead them to the Sootscales and then to the mites. Even if they wipe the kobolds out, as one is playing a ranger, I could effectively have him track the other kobolds to the mites.
I'm kind of hoping that my players set up an alliance with them instead of wiping them out.
3. Because I had 2 relatively new players (1 of them a 4e/NWoD vet, the other a complete RPG newbie.) I let them use 25 pt. buys.
The Kingmaker AP, imo, runs best with 20 pt. buys, esp if you're new.
Because they're running with 6, I used the extremely helpful guide to running Kingmaker with 6 PCs that is also here on this forum. (My party consists of a Gnome Cleric of Sarenrae, Human Conjurer Wizard, Half-elf Switch-hitter Ranger, Elf TWF Rogue, Halfling Diplomancer Bard and Dwarf Sword and Board Fighter)
I had very few problems challenging the party. Between Grizzlies and a random bandits with Longbows, even with the 25pt. buys there were a lot of forays into the negative HPs for the group. The fight with the Stag Lord left half the group at negative, one at -9. One nearly got eaten by the big bug at the bottom of the mite lair, and if it wasn't for DM fiat, would have been.
I normally allow players to start with an 18 and roll using the 4d6 method. Yeah, it's being a little accommodating, but most players have more initial fun having an 18. My players offered to use the 15 point buy system, so I said sure. I have noticed some posts that talk about a 20 point buy fitting better within the campaign. I'm planning to use the first few encounters as a measuring stick. If things aren't faring well for the players, I'll have them spend 5 more points on attributes. At least, that's the plan for now. As we've grown as a group, we've become a little more tactical and I like them having to plan around their faults and to work to overcome average or worse stats.
Lastly, you probably got this from the Obit thread, but make sure you emphasize the need to RUN AWAY when your players see trolls.
I've already started warning them. I'm going to reiterate it out of character before we start and I'll have Oleg and Svetlana warn them before they head off.
Speaking of Svetlana, I read a snippet in one of the threads where a GM treated or wanted to treat her more like a mail-order bridge. I actually kind of like that idea, so I may take it and make it worth within the way I intend to have her interact with the players.
I recommend using a random weather generator and creating a calendar as well. The random weather will add spice to otherwise boring encounters and the calendar will help you know exactly how long the PCs are out in the wilderness.
I started this campaign without random weather and I truly regret it. The calendar however I use and its been incredibly helpful. My PCs were laid out for three weeks with red ache. Even though it only took ten minutes of game time at the most, marking the days off on the calendar really helped them understand the gravity of the disease.
Another possible piece of advice would be to create some small encounter maps in between game sessions that you can use as inspiration when a random encounter pops up. Focus each one on two different skills.
I.E.
1: Stealth and Disable Device for a group of bandits who have set up a small camp with some traps in the area to catch hunters.
2: Acrobatics and Stealth for a group of kobolds who are attacking from across a river.
You can always reuse the maps with minor terrain fluxuations too. Just remember, there are PLENTY of random encounters, don't let your players get bored with them.
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I started them with two posters and the meta-quest of learning about the bandits with an eye to driving them out. I started with 12 players though and had them sign up for "quests", before I cut down to 6. I still do this though as it allows me to make the most out of my prep time. The players still feel like they have choice, its just a useful tool to keep me off the back foot :-)
As others have answered your first, specific questions, I'll just offer some unsolicited advice. :)
Read all six books ahead of time! Even if you just skim the second to sixth, it may give you some great ideas for little tidbits to toss the players in even the first book. It may also give you ideas for tying in each character to the overall story, either by adding in places/NPCs or sliding some of your PCs directly into the plot down the line. I've used this to good effect, giving my players "visions" of possible futures which won't occur until much later, if at all.
If you have six or more players, use the conversions; if you have four or five, the AP as written should be fine. And I agree with testing the waters on the 15 pt buy. Should be okay, as it's written for it, but if the players are new...
Write up some "random" encounters ahead of time. I've gone entire game days without rolling a single random encounter, so started just tossing them out there when I felt like it. Stupid dice won't obey me!!
The sandbox nature of the AP is both a blessing and a curse. Sometimes they'll feel like they're unsure of what to do or where to go. At those times, exploring is a great option! Other times, they may hear of some big bad and make a beeline for it, approaching under the "suggested level". So be prepared to do some on-the-fly GMing.
Lastly, as you've already done, read through the posts on the Kingmaker forum, and don't be afraid to ask questions! I've been delighted and amazed at the awesome people here, and admit to having lifted more than two ideas over the last year... :)
Okay I lied. Here's lastly: Have fun! This was my first AP with a new group of players, and I've truly enjoyed it.
PS--The Kingdom Excel sheet is your friend!
If you roll the random encounters in advance, you can do more with them. This monster is where it is because the trolls drove it there; these tracks belong to the monster in the next hex, giving some forewarning; this monster has been harassing that one; etc. This also helps for the occasional encounter that does not really want to be "random" (we had issues with the woodmen in the Gnarlwood not having any set location)-- if you see them coming, you can fill in where their camps are, where they sell their goods, etc.
I didn't do random weather but I did do seasons. Brevoy is described as having harsh winters, so I put snow on the ground 4 months of the year, and adjusted events accordingly. This helps a lot in making the place seem real. Random weather is a good idea as well, though don't fall into the trap of making it too extreme. This campaign will cover a lot of time, and if the weather is too freakish it will become distracting.
The final Stag Lord fights can be quite difficult. Watch out if your players seem to head straight for them. If you can't stop them, consider adding an NPC such as Kesten to the group to make it a bit stronger.
I found _Stolen Lands_ to run quite smoothly. Things become more difficult for the GM as the game goes on. But it can also be a really rewarding campaign with lots of scope for player creativity.
YMMV, but this is what worked for me:
1 - Prebuild the random encounters, sothat you've got them ready to go (and as someone noted above, it can be an inspiration).
2 - Make Oleg's a living place. When my party first returned there, they overheard one hunter berating another for not marking his traps (the second hunter was Breeg, later found dead). As the PCs started clearing bandits and Oleg felt safer, he began to expand a bit, building a taphouse. A while after the soldiers came (and complained about the lack of women), Svetlana arranged for traveling ladies to stop by...etc.
3 - Build up the NPCs that aren't written. Kesten has a backstory...but his soldiers don't even have a name. Give them names and a one-line bio...do the same for 3 or four bandits...those will happen to be the bandits that survive to be questioned :) When the party managed to turn a bandit to a more civilzed frame of mind, it had more impact because they knew him...and when he died defending Oleg's from a revenge attack by the Stag Lord, it felt important.
4 - Don't let things get static. The Stag Lord should react (somewhat) to what the PCs are doing, and if the PCs make an alliance with the kobolds, have them crop up once in a while (for good or ill).
Awesome. I didn't have a chance to check this thread after yesterday afternoon and came back to find some more responses. I really appreciate you guys responding.
After yesterday afternoon, and definitely after reading these posts, I agree that coming up with some preplanned encounters is a must. If I can't find graph paper to fit my needs, I can print some up off of the internet and draw them up ahead of time. I'm curious if Staples or Officemax sell a pad of it? Fortunately, my wife works at a place that gives me easy access to cheap lamination, so I'll be able to reuse some of the encounter maps I'm going to come up with (I intend to draw up 20-30 between today and tomorrow).
I was able to talk to three of my players last night and went over the campaign, the exploration, and sandbox nature of the campaign. The campaign was actually suggested by one of them, so he's familiar with the idea of the story arc, but not with any details. They all seem to be pretty excited about it. I reiterated that not every fight has to be fought and while there's a starting and ending point for The Stolen Lands, it's more about how and when they get there. I tried to keep it ambiguous.
Build up the NPCs that aren't written. Kesten has a backstory...but his soldiers don't even have a name. Give them names and a one-line bio...do the same for 3 or four bandits...those will happen to be the bandits that survive to be questioned :) When the party managed to turn a bandit to a more civilzed frame of mind, it had more impact because they knew him...and when he died defending Oleg's from a revenge attack by the Stag Lord, it felt important.
This is actually a really good idea. I downloaded an app for my phone that makes naming NPCs easier, but giving them a quick bio would help flesh them out. Since my party will consist of mostly good-aligned characters, it would make sense for them to spare some of the bandits.
Awesome. I didn't have a chance to check this thread after yesterday afternoon and came back to find some more responses. I really appreciate you guys responding.
You know, you *will* get sucked into this one! :)
I know that office supply stores sell large sheets of 1" grids. The one I saw was like $25 or so for a whole bunch of sheets (can't recall the precise #). You might want to look into that if you're planning on reusing "generic" settings. Also, Paizo sells their own line of "generic" mats that look pretty cool, in a variety of settings.
Oh, and the NPC thing is a good suggestion. If you want to keep things in-game, you might also create an NPC to act as a Kingdom Planning Adviser or something, once they get to that stage.
Overall, have the players take their time and explore. Show them a blank map and give 'em free reign. I suspect they'll enjoy themselves. Who knows what's in that next hex! :)
Regarding map paper - I get large easel pads with a 1" grid. I don't recall if I last got them from Staples or Office Depot - whichever it was, they had a recycled paper four-pack (fifty or sixty sheets per pad) for about $60, delivery-only. When I want to keep a map, I just insert the sheet back under all the other blank pages, just above the cardboard, and they're safe until I need them.
I'm starting my Kingmaker campaign in a few weeks, and I picked up a few things at GenCon that I can strongly recommend.
Dark Platypus Studio (http://www.dark-platypus.com/) has some really fun products. Since I can't draw trees worth a darn, and this adventure path is going to have a lot of wilderness scenes, I got a couple sheets of their Dungeon Clings: Trees and Bushes. They also have Boulders and Rubble. (Dungeon Clings are like Colorforms, so they'll stick to a laminated map, but I figure I can set them on a paper map just fine.)
(I'm also using their magnetic Action Stands with Status Flags. The web site refers to their 4th edition-compatible status flags, but at GenCon they also had 3rd edition/Pathfinder status flags available. I did not go with the magnetically-receptive 1" grid, although I kind of wish I had - and the bendy-walls to go with them. If you haven't seen these yet, check out their web site.)
I also want to recommend two books from Engine Publishing - Eureka: 501 Plots to Inspire Game Masters and Masks: 1000 Memorable NPCs. These books are a treasure trove of ideas when you get stuck for plot twists or for interesting NPCs, and in a sandbox campaign, they look to be extremely useful.
You know, you *will* get sucked into this one! :)
I know that office supply stores sell large sheets of 1" grids. The one I saw was like $25 or so for a whole bunch of sheets (can't recall the precise #). You might want to look into that if you're planning on reusing "generic" settings. Also, Paizo sells their own line of "generic" mats that look pretty cool, in a variety of settings.
Overall, have the players take their time and explore. Show them a blank map and give 'em free reign. I suspect they'll enjoy themselves. Who knows what's in that next hex! :)
Cool. I'll be stopping in at the local Staples/Office Max/Office Depot (all three are within a 10 minute drive).
As for the map, I actually bought the Kingmaker Map Folio off of Amazon and my wife laminated it. Then she, being the wonderfully awesome wife that she is, cut out around 100 hexes out of cardstock and is laminating them as well. So, I'll be able to set up the map, apply the hexes with some sticky tack, and then remove them as the characters move into the different areas of the map.
I'm curious how the players will go about exploring. I did hint that the first part of this path will end with the characters at level 4, but is contingent on taking advantage of everything it offers. The two dominant personalities seemed to really like the idea, so hopefully I've hooked them with that.
Dark Platypus Studio (http://www.dark-platypus.com/) has some really fun products. Since I can't draw trees worth a darn, and this adventure path is going to have a lot of wilderness scenes, I got a couple sheets of their Dungeon Clings: Trees and Bushes. They also have Boulders and Rubble. (Dungeon Clings are like Colorforms, so they'll stick to a laminated map, but I figure I can set them on a paper map just fine.)
Hopefully, between my meager doodling skills and paintshop, I can come up with something to laminate. I'll have to check these out, especially if what I come up with looks like crap.
What really bums me out is that I recently sold a huge collection of D&D minis because I didn't think that I'd play D&D again. I really wish I had those. I'm tempted to contact the guy (he's an acquaintance) and see if I can buy them back.
Well, the first session went well. My group explored 6 or 7 hexes, destroyed the bandit camp, wiped out the mites, and agreed to take on Nettle's quest. They killed Kressle, dug out the middens and put Happs down in them, and have temporarily adopted Mikmek...even gave him a small spear.
Our new player was very direct...who are you, where are you from, what you do want, what do you know...etc. It makes me glad that I read up on these forums and got snippets of information to use as backgrounds. This next week, I intend to read up on and flesh out the major NPCs. The small bios for the faceless bandits are now going to be more important as my players are more intent on killing the named guys and keeping the faceless ones around for interrogation.
I'm looking forward to more. Have another sessions this weekend.
