Two questions...
The first is what should I do with my remaining feats when planning this build. I've got the 'feat tree' listed below by level and everything in bold is pretty much decided on. The non-bold items I'm still considering and I'd like to hear some thoughts... for instance, would it make sense to take Unarmed Strike and then dip into one of those fighting styles in UC? Or should I consider using those slots to dip into the critical feats?
(Our GM allows Vitals Strike et al to be used anytime you make a standard attack action or when you charge, but under no circumstances can you benefit from the additional damage more than once per round)
1st Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Power Attack, Cleave
2nd Dodge
3rd Mobility
4th Combat Expertise
5th Spring Attack
6th Whirlwind Attack
7th Lunge
8th Greater Weapon Focus: Greatsword (retrain Cleave to Furious Focus)
9th Improved Critical: Greatsword
10th Vital Strike
11th Dazing Assault
12th Improved Vital Strike
13th Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
14th Greater Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
15th Combat Reflexes
16th Stunning Assault (retrain Dazing Assault to Standstill)
17th Greater Vital Strike
18th Step-Up
19th Following Step
20th Step Up and Strike (retrain Furious Focus to Iron Will)
Also, I'm planning on playing this character using the Weaponmaster Arche-type. I considered the Two-Handed Fighter archetype, but the way I read it, the benefits didn't seem adequate. I am wondering if I read it correctly, though... for instance, when it says:
"when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls."
I'm assuming that you add double your Strength bonus on damage rolls instead of the normal 1 1/2 Strength bonus, not in addition to. Is that correct? (Ditto for the 7th level ability Backswing)
Thanks in advance.
The Two Handed Archetype deals much more damage. At top levels, trading in greatsword for a greataxe or pick means you deal full damage with a standard action, since you crit everything damage wise.
Unsure on UC. Don't have resource to it yet.
===Aelryinth
The Two Handed Archetype deals much more damage. At top levels, trading in greatsword for a greataxe or pick means you deal full damage with a standard action, since you crit everything damage wise.
Unsure on UC. Don't have resource to it yet.
===Aelryinth
I would think it would deal more damage when it hits - I'm not sure about MUCH more - but I like the Weaponmaster more because 1) it has faster weapon mastery acceleration (+1 to hit and +1 damage come quicker and more often), 2) the ability to re-roll an attack, crit confirmation, etc. has proven to be invaluable, and you start getting it at 5th level, 3) Increasing crit damage modifier at a crucial time can not be under-estimated and 4) Unstoppable Strike is absurd, especially once you realize you can use Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Stunning Strike, etc. with impunity and - as I read it - you don't have to give up the standard Fighter's Armor Mastery ability for it.
Can you clarify the question about the Two-Handed Fighter's strength modifier for me?
That's correct, it is 'instead of', not in addition to. basically it's giving you a rising damage bonus above and beyond your weapon mastery to your big stick.
==Aelryinth
Although Lunge + Whirlwind Attack is a very effective combination you need 5 feats to achieve it, which is quite a lot in my opinion. But since you decided on that it still is a viable option. I also think, improved vital strike is not worth taking.
I would strongly consider critical focus and the feats of this chain, although these are much more effective for falchion users. The feats of these chains will benefit the defense of you and your party.As far as I can see the fighting styles are mostly for monks and they only boost unarmed strikes. Of course you could play an unarmed fighter, and then it would be a very strong choice to take a fighting style but not as a greatsword user.
The strength modifier of a two handed fighter is 2x - if you use a greatsword and you have str of 20 you will deal 2d6 + 10. This is a very solid archetype and it is one of the most effective meleers in the game.
I don't really consider the five feats wasted, because I generally get use out of all of them to one degree or another, and being able to strike everyone within 10' with a single attack at your full attack bonus by 7th level is pretty effective. Doubly so when you can subject them all to a Dazing effect at level 11.
When you say you don't think Improved Vital Strike is worth taking, do you mean that the entire chain isn't worth taking or that just advancing it past the initial Vital Strike feat is a waste? I'm more inclined to go with it since our GM is a bit more permissive with regards as to when it can be used.
I really stack up those critical mastery feats with my scimitar and shield guy who plays more like a tank than a damage-dealer - the Weaponmaster's benefits particularly impact those critical effects.
I recognize that the Two-Handed Fighter does more damage, but it doesn't seem to me to be that much more - consider:
Two-Handed Fighter, Strength 20, +2 Greatsword at 4th level is +7 to hit and will deal 2d6 +12 damage (14-28 total).
Weaponmaster, Strength 20, +2 Greatsword at 4th level is +8 to hit and will deal 2d6 +10 damage (12-26 total).
Obviously as you level up, damage bonuses increase, but so does the Weaponmaster's accuracy, and every hit that he makes that the Two-Handed Fighter wouldn't have has to be factored in - plus you get all of those other goodies as well.
I'd like to see your character's stats. Truly, I think you'd do better to have Iron Will earlier, not to mention the fact that it's not a combat feat, and so you can't trade it out for a combat feat.
Good point about swapping out for Iron Will - here are his other notable attributes, with all level bonuses going into Strength:
Human Fighter, Weaponmaster (Greatsword)
Strength 19
Intelligence 13
Wisdom 13
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Charisma 7
Traits:
Defender of the Society (+1 AC with medium or heavy armor)
Freed Slave, Andoran Region (+1 Will saves)
Tweaked build - same advice desired:
1st Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Power Attack, Cleave
2nd Dodge
3rd Mobility
4th Combat Expertise
5th Spring Attack
6th Whirlwind Attack
7th Lunge
8th Greater Weapon Focus: Greatsword (retrain Cleave to Furious Focus)
9th Improved Critical: Greatsword
10th Vital Strike
11th Dazing Assault
12th Improved Vital Strike
13th Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
14th Greater Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
15th Combat Reflexes
16th Stunning Assault (retrain Dazing Assault to Greater Vital Strike )
17th Iron Will
18th Standstill
19th Step-Up
20th Following Step (retrain Furious Focus to Step Up and Strike)
You're forgetting the THW melee also gets weapon training, it's just a level or two later then the Weapon Master, meaning he's never more then +1 behind to hit...and he'll always be +2 or more ahead on damage. His AC bonus from the class tends to be better, as well.
The Weapon Master sees use mostly as a quick way to get Weapon Training and Gloves of the Duelist.
=+Aelryinth
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I don't want to be instantly negative, but I don't see the immense synergy going down with a greatsword and whirlwind attack. I know you have Lunge as well, but in my opinion the reason you want whirlwind attack is because you're using a reach weapon. So, my suggestion, without gutting the build entirely is the bardiche. You're looking at 1d10 instead of 2d6, which is unfortunately a decrease of 1.5 in damage per hit. What you're gaining however, is the very wonderful reach feature, which will make your Lunge + Whirlwind so much more powerful. Here's my input, with Iron Will unceremoniously thrust in as well. To be perfectly honest, I've never seen a fighter build so feat-starved.
1 Weapon Focus: Bardiche, Power Attack, Cleave
2 Dodge
3 Iron Will
4 Weapon Specialization: Bardiche, Mobility, (-Cleave)
5 Combat Expertise
6 Spring Attack
7 Whirlwind Attack
8 Greater Weapon Focus: Bardiche
9 Improved Critical: Bardiche
10 Lunge
11 Improved Iron Will
12 Greater Weapon Specialization: Bardiche
13 Combat Reflexes
That's all I'm willing to do as I've never played higher. I didn't include Vital Strike not because I think it's a bad feat, but because I couldn't find room for it. I really do think picking a reach weapon will do you good though. Other honourable mentions include the Hooked Lance and the Bec de Corbin.
I don't want to be instantly negative, but I don't see the immense synergy going down with a greatsword and whirlwind attack. I know you have Lunge as well, but in my opinion the reason you want whirlwind attack is because you're using a reach weapon. So, my suggestion, without gutting the build entirely is the bardiche. You're looking at 1d10 instead of 2d6, which is unfortunately a decrease of 1.5 in damage per hit. What you're gaining however, is the very wonderful reach feature, which will make your Lunge + Whirlwind so much more powerful. Here's my input, with Iron Will unceremoniously thrust in as well. To be perfectly honest, I've never seen a fighter build so feat-starved.
1 Weapon Focus: Bardiche, Power Attack, Cleave
2 Dodge
3 Iron Will
4 Weapon Specialization: Bardiche, Mobility, (-Cleave)
5 Combat Expertise
6 Spring Attack
7 Whirlwind Attack
8 Greater Weapon Focus: Bardiche
9 Improved Critical: Bardiche
10 Lunge
11 Improved Iron Will
12 Greater Weapon Specialization: Bardiche
13 Combat ReflexesThat's all I'm willing to do as I've never played higher. I didn't include Vital Strike not because I think it's a bad feat, but because I couldn't find room for it. I really do think picking a reach weapon will do you good though. Other honourable mentions include the Hooked Lance and the Bec de Corbin.
I appreciate the advice. I wasn't really trying to build an optimal 'reach' fighter - in my experience a 10' reach is pretty much all that's truly needed in the heat of combat. More to the point, you're missing the point of that reach - a single die of damage with bonuses is rarely enough to kill or incapacitate, but utilizing Dazing Assault, you can get some nice mitigation until you have the chance to finish them off. The attack penalty that Dazing Assault imposes can be offset somewhat by the fact that each attack is at your highest BAB.
The thought behind the character is to have a bit of versatility - effective damage and crowd control when in the thick of things as well as the ability to decimate a single opponent quickly.
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I appreciate the advice. I wasn't really trying to build an optimal 'reach' fighter - in my experience a 10' reach is pretty much all that's truly needed in the heat of combat. More to the point, you're missing the point of that reach - a single die of damage with bonuses is rarely enough to kill or incapacitate, but utilizing Dazing Assault, you can get some nice mitigation until you have the chance to finish them off. The attack penalty that Dazing Assault imposes can be offset somewhat by the fact that each attack is at your highest BAB.
The thought behind the...
I've looked over Dazing Assault again, and I'm sorry I took it out, as it's a great feat for this build. Remove Improved Iron Will and insert Dazing Assault to my suggestion. I still do think you should consider a reach weapon. Remember also that you aren't using all of your trade-ins, and you could actually conceivably have weapon focus with a reach weapon up to level 8, and then trade it in to grab weapon focus and greater weapon focus with a greatsword. That would make up for not having Lunge right away.
You're forgetting the THW melee also gets weapon training, it's just a level or two later then the Weapon Master, meaning he's never more then +1 behind to hit...and he'll always be +2 or more ahead on damage. His AC bonus from the class tends to be better, as well.
The Weapon Master sees use mostly as a quick way to get Weapon Training and Gloves of the Duelist.
=+Aelryinth
He gets it (weapon training bonuses) sooner AND he gets more of them. +2 damage is a big deal when you're 4th level and you're looking at 2d6+12 damage vs. 2d6+10 damage... but when you're talking about 8d6+26 vs. 8d6+24, that benefit seems a lot smaller.
However I consider the higher damage vs. the improved accuracy more or less a wash with the THW Fighter maybe coming out a little ahead. Its all the other bells and whistles that the WM gets that the THW Fighter doesn't.
I'm not sure what you mean about the AC bonus being better.
Although a bardiche is a reach weapon, remember that it still only has a threat of a 5' zone
Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
With lunge you could use it to attack opponents 15' and 10' away but not adjacent, or shorten the grip to 5' and adjacent foes.
On re reading, does lunge increase your natural reach? If so does a reach weapon allow you to threaten 20' away?
Just wandering in what book you found those two traits?I think i saw trait for +1 on will saves,but cant remember anything about trait for +1 AC?I'd like to see your character's stats. Truly, I think you'd do better to have Iron Will earlier, not to mention the fact that it's not a combat feat, and so you can't trade it out for a combat feat.Good point about swapping out for Iron Will - here are his other notable attributes, with all level bonuses going into Strength:
Human Fighter, Weaponmaster (Greatsword)
Strength 19
Intelligence 13
Wisdom 13
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Charisma 7Traits:
Defender of the Society (+1 AC with medium or heavy armor)
Freed Slave, Andoran Region (+1 Will saves)
Defender of the Society here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/defender-of-the-society-fighte r-pathfinder-societyFreed Slave, Andoran Region here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/freed-slave-regional-andoran
Our GM allows for two traits so long as they aren't from the same category. This was one of those instances where optimalization and chracter background blended perfectly.
The decision, if you rather want a THW-Fighter or a WM is more or less linked to what you want to do with this character. If you want high HP-damage output and maybe sometimes do some Combat Maneuvers of the Power attack chain, then you simply want a THW-Fighter. The Weapon Master is much more relying on his defense and on doing crits.
Your build looks to me like you primarily want to deal HP-Damage as you use a greatsword. I think the Weapon Master in combination with the critical feats and a Falchion would be an excellent choice.
About the vital strike chain. I have to admit that I don't know if vital strike can be applied to a whirlwind attack. If you can apply it, then improved vital strike could be useful. Another thing is, that you take the combat expertise feat but nothing from that tree. why don't you drop it, since you play a human, you don't need a high int and a boost of Wis or Str (int 10, wis 12 -> str 20) wouldn't hurt.
As an alternative to the whirwind attack tree you could consider taking cleaving finish and imroved cleaving finish from UC. This basically is the old 3.5 cleave.
Vital Strike can definitely not be applied to Whirlwind attack - it is usable soley as a standard attack action (though our GM allows it to be used with any standard attack action as well as with charges). At any rate you absolutely will not get the bonus damage more than once a round. I personally take advantage of it when moving and then attacking, charging and eventually when I gain access to Unstoppable Strike. IF you are using the Vital Strike chain, a Greatsword is absolutely the way to go - I teetered back and forth between it and the Falchion, but when I was using the Falchion, the build looked very different in order to maximize those critical mastery feats... and then when I looked at what it was becoming, I decided to go sword and board with a Scimatar instead for what essentially became a crowd-controlling tank. A very good one in fact.
As I said before, the character isn't really designed as an optimized reach fighter. A 10' reach is more than adequate for my purposes - and don't halberds prefevnt you from hitting things within 5' when you use their reach ability? Whirlwind Attack + Lunge is mainly jst being used to gain extra attacks at the highest BAB and to be able to affect multiple foes with Dazing/Stunning strike. I don't plan on taking advantage of the Combat Manuever benefits that Two-Handed Fighters get, but I DO plan on using things like being able to re-roll missed attacks or increase your crit multiplier. At the higer levels you gain Unstoppable Strike AND Armor Mastery as well.
You're forgetting the THW melee also gets weapon training, it's just a level or two later then the Weapon Master, meaning he's never more then +1 behind to hit...and he'll always be +2 or more ahead on damage. His AC bonus from the class tends to be better, as well.
The Weapon Master sees use mostly as a quick way to get Weapon Training and Gloves of the Duelist.
=+Aelryinth
He gets it (weapon training bonuses) sooner AND he gets more of them. +2 damage is a big deal when you're 4th level and you're looking at 2d6+12 damage vs. 2d6+10 damage... but when you're talking about 8d6+26 vs. 8d6+24, that benefit seems a lot smaller.
However I consider the higher damage vs. the improved accuracy more or less a wash with the THW Fighter maybe coming out a little ahead. Its all the other bells and whistles that the WM gets that the THW Fighter doesn't.
I'm not sure what you mean about the AC bonus being better.
The weapon master doesn't get an AC bonus against anything as he levels, except those using his weapon. So, he's got a good AC against other greatsword users...tough luck on the dragon!
You get 5 Weapon Masteries for +5/+5. The THW guy gets +4/+4. He also gets 2 pts of armor mastery, and an AC Shield benefit with his weapon on the defensive.
Lastly, he gets Overhand Chop and its upgrade, for +50% str on all attacks, and Improved Power Attack, for +50% Power Attack on all attacks.
This means that at higher levels, Your Guy is going to be doing, say, +5 Th, +35 dmg with a Greatsword from WEapon Mastery and Power Attack (ignoring the TH penalty for the moment), and with a 30 Str.
THe THW guy is going to be doing +4 To hit, +45 damage. And that's with ANY weapon he can use in two hands, not just a greatsword. We haven't used Weapon Spec yet.
And on top of this is the level 19 'killer' ability. As a standard action, take a -5 to hit, and you auto-crit with your one attack. Assume Furious Focus, 30 str, a +5 Weapon, and any weapon with a x3 or x4 crit multiplier...
Yeah, that's right. You're doing 150 + 3x weapon or 200 + 4x weapon every round. Minotaur Greathammer for the win. No weapon spec feats.
So, yeah, in the long run, the THW fighter is probably better. Still, a weapon master has style, can't fault him for that. And if you're going to dip Fighter, it's the best way to go.
==Aelryinth