Ok so this is about to happen in my game.
The summoner is 4th lvl and getting ready to make a +5 headband "of spellcrafting" the item will give him a +5 on his spellcrafting skill checks. he has a +11 to his check already, he does have the craft wonderous items feat.
reading the rules he must make a spellcraft check of DC 5 plus the caster lvl of the item....so his over all DC would be 9. I'm thinking he would need to use the fox's cunning spell for this which is on his list.
the base price is bouns squared times 100...so 5 squared = 25x100 for a grand total of 2500 gp. Thre rules state he only needs half that to make it, so 1250gp.
As if this is not enough he as stated that he plans on building another one later that would give him a +10......I have look throught the rules and not found anything stoping him. I know that 3.5 had rule for making this that gave you more than a +5. Those where EPIC items and you needed to be EPIC lvl to even think of trying to make them. Or am I wrong
You're thinking of enhancement bonuses. The rules you're thinking of (epic items) don't apply to these.
Check out the Boots of Elvenkind and the Cloak of Elvenkind. Both give +5 for 2500 gp. Skill enhancing items are really cheap.
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Is Fox's Cunning on his list of spells KNOWN? If not, it still adds +5. Not that this affects his ability to take 10.
You are in fact wrong on the points in the last paragraph. You can get up to a +15 item pre-epic (a 22,500gp value item). This item must be in a thematically appropriate item slot (or on a ring) or its cost is increased.
Skill items are cheap, though. For an example of them in action, look at the "Greater Shadow" and "Greater Slick" properties on armor. These follow those pricing guidelines with a +50% for being an "extra" property on already magical armor.
One of my characters, a cleric who is basically an artificer, currently has an "Artificer's Spectacles" which give him +8 to spellcraft. He's spending money now so that he won't lose a ton more later. It's like insurance :)
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One of my characters, a cleric who is basically an artificer, currently has an "Artificer's Spectacles" which give him +8 to spellcraft. He's spending money now so that he won't lose a ton more later. It's like insurance :)
I usually restrict skill items to 5-point increments for simplicity's sake. I also don't like when people make a +8 item because that's exactly how much they need to make that other item and they would rather not spend the extra money on the last +2.
Keeping it 5-10-15 keeps the "lesser, normal, greater" setup that the armors have for skill boosting. Simple, clean, as accurate as it needs to be.
Not as well justified as "no +1 attribute items", but oh well.
Ok so upon looking at the 3.5 EPIC item rules....an item that gives a +30 bonus to a skill check or is priced over 200,000 gp was an EPIC item....still creating that +30 with the pathfinder rules can still be done at 4th lvl if he can get his hands on 45,000 gp ....So for 5,000 more than a ring of freeddom of movement he would never have to roll a spellcraft check again as there is no nat 1 on skill checks is a fail rule.
Am i the only person that sees a problem with this?
*has said spellcaster in a grapple and is beating their brains in* Huh? +30 to spellcraft? *shrug* I don't care! *more beating*
Not sure it helps you, but I houseruled it to make it a concentration check instead, thus not allowing any easy way to be boosted. Caster level + casting ability modifier.
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Ok so upon looking at the 3.5 EPIC item rules....an item that gives a +30 bonus to a skill check or is priced over 200,000 gp was an EPIC item....still creating that +30 with the pathfinder rules can still be done at 4th lvl if he can get his hands on 45,000 gp ....So for 5,000 more than a ring of freeddom of movement he would never have to roll a spellcraft check again as there is no nat 1 on skill checks is a fail rule.
Am i the only person that sees a problem with this?
Yeah, pretty much. Most crafting wizards can make anything they want without that item anyway, all it does is take it from "take 10" to "do it in my sleep". The hardest any DC generally gets for a wizard is about a 30 (for a CL20 item), which only takes a +20 to take 10 on. For a wizard who starts at a +4 int mod, with +3 class bonus they only need 13 ranks to do this. Meaning they can take-10 on a CL20 item at level 13 without that item. This assumes they have the spells needed, of course. Actually, they probably get that bonus by around level 10th-11th because of int increase from a headband and from level.
Also, how the hell does any character less than about 8th or 9th level get 45,000gp? In my campaigns that just doesn't happen. Actually, such an item would never be made before about 15th-18th level in my campaigns since they usually don't have the ability to get that much pure cash until then unless it's some kind of emergency (which this definitely isn't).
Lastly, I recommend doing a cap of +15 on pre-epic items. This is mostly to follow the example of items already listed in the core book.
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Not sure it helps you, but I houseruled it to make it a concentration check instead, thus not allowing any easy way to be boosted. Caster level + casting ability modifier.
Your world must have cursed items up the wazoo.
EDIT: Nevermind. Somehow I read "caster level check", not "concentration" check, which is more reasonably in-line with what it currently is, but still a minimum of 3 points low. So cursed items would still be more common, just not to the "up the wazoo" degree.
Ok so upon looking at the 3.5 EPIC item rules....an item that gives a +30 bonus to a skill check or is priced over 200,000 gp was an EPIC item....still creating that +30 with the pathfinder rules can still be done at 4th lvl if he can get his hands on 45,000 gp ....So for 5,000 more than a ring of freeddom of movement he would never have to roll a spellcraft check again as there is no nat 1 on skill checks is a fail rule.
Am i the only person that sees a problem with this?
Maybe there's a reason the cost was lowered? Maybe it was felt that the 3.5 rules were completely overpricing certain items?
Ever thought of that? Just because something was in 3.5 a certain way doesn't mean it has to stay that way forever, or that it was a good way.
One of my characters, a cleric who is basically an artificer, currently has an "Artificer's Spectacles" which give him +8 to spellcraft. He's spending money now so that he won't lose a ton more later. It's like insurance :)I usually restrict skill items to 5-point increments for simplicity's sake. I also don't like when people make a +8 item because that's exactly how much they need to make that other item and they would rather not spend the extra money on the last +2.
Keeping it 5-10-15 keeps the "lesser, normal, greater" setup that the armors have for skill boosting. Simple, clean, as accurate as it needs to be.
Not as well justified as "no +1 attribute items", but oh well.
+ 8 is all I can afford. I'd like a lot more so I can make items faster, since spending a few months making an item tends to kill any adventure plans.
Ok so upon looking at the 3.5 EPIC item rules....an item that gives a +30 bonus to a skill check or is priced over 200,000 gp was an EPIC item....still creating that +30 with the pathfinder rules can still be done at 4th lvl if he can get his hands on 45,000 gp ....So for 5,000 more than a ring of freeddom of movement he would never have to roll a spellcraft check again as there is no nat 1 on skill checks is a fail rule.
Am i the only person that sees a problem with this?
How many skills is auto-succeeding at really going to mess up your game? Besides that's a decent chunk of change to be super good at a skill, and a low level character isn't realistically going to have the means to do it financially. And really, just to compare, would you rather have a ring of freedom or a +30 bonus to escape artist?
What I'm ask is why is there no adjustment to the DC based on the bonus given.
Right now he can make the +5 headband now at 4th lvl. He has stated his next step is to make a +10 headband....he will never need to put another rank in the skill so long as the DC is never adjusted based on the bonus given. That would put his total nonus at +21, his next step is to make armbands that would give him a + 10 to craft(weapons). He will then be able to double the partys treasure intake.
What I'm ask is why is there no adjustment to the DC based on the bonus given.
Right now he can make the +5 headband now at 4th lvl. He has stated his next step is to make a +10 headband....he will never need to put another rank in the skill so long as the DC is never adjusted based on the bonus given. That would put his total nonus at +21, his next step is to make armbands that would give him a + 10 to craft(weapons). He will then be able to double the partys treasure intake.
You could just make him not Take 10 on rolls, I guess. But then he'd just make higher bonuses. Hmm...
What exactly is your problem with this? Is it just that he'll be able to make magic items?
Also, I think this will devolve into Crafting / WBL soon.
@ maezer : your bring up something i might have missed..I'll go back and look closer at the books.
Am i the only person that sees a problem with this?
You lost the battle as soon as you let them create custom magic items without regard to similar magic items or spell effects they are simulating.
The closest similar skill boosting item I am away of is the armor properties of Slick/Shadow greater which require a CL equal to the skill bonus. This should be the absolute minimum required for large skill bonus.
Boots of elvenkind.
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It's actually fairly normal to have more powerful version of the same ability not require a higher DC. You see this with headbands/belts and pearls of power, to name two examples.
That said, I think the only item that goes above +5 by RAW is the shadow/slick bonuses, which do scale their CL. As such I would probably have the CL match those (CL equal to bonus) for any given skill boost item. This matches up to the CL of boots of elvenkind as well.
Think of it as an excuse to throw harder and more interesting monsters at the party :)
...he will never need to put another rank in the skill so long as the DC is never adjusted based on the bonus given. That would put his total nonus at +21, his next step is to make armbands that would give him a + 10 to craft(weapons). He will then be able to double the partys treasure intake.
First of all, this is not just an issue about one item. The mentality behind creating "goggles of crafting" is obviously somewhat "min-maxing", but there's nothing wrong with that, IF that is the game you want to play.
The developers have clearly stated that the magic item creation rules are guidelines, not clear-cut rules. There are many items which can be created which will unbalance gameplay, and the GM must work with (but not against!) the players to find the balance that works with each group. This is largely a matter of taste, and can often be resolved by discussion.
Here are some possible solutions:
Solution 1: Talk to your players, explain what you want with crafting and try to reach a consensus on what constitutes a "cheesy" item and which kinds of items should be banned. (Best solution.)
Solution 2: Lay down the GM-hammer and restrict crafting to just the already existing items in the Core Rulebook. Or ban crafting outright. (This might be the most undiplomatic solution, and will upset a lot of players.)
Solution 3: Don't ban anything, but reduce amount of loot and time available to the players. In this way they don't get 100% more gear and can't create everything themselves. (A bit sneaky, but restricting time is actually just common sense, the PCs can't expect the BBEG to respect a "crafting time-out".)
Solution 4: Don't ban anything and allow full crafting, but up the difficulty of encounters (adding 1-2 CR to account for the insane lvls of loot). (This is the best solution for a party who want to go the min-max way and feel like their characters are super-powerful.)
My perspective:
We started playing Kingmaker after 3-4 years without playind d20 and we decided on total crafting freedom. Although we were a bit rusty (so no one figured out how to make super-cheese items), by lvl 13 the party had a ridiculous level of gear. For our next campaign (Council of Thieves), we tried no crafting and found that a bit restrictive. For our next campaign we will try unlimited crafting of consumeables (potions, scrolls, wands), but no crafting of "static items" (weapons, armor, stat-boosting wondrous items).
I think that crafting can remove a lot of the "wow-factor" of magic items, especially when you can recycle new loot into more "optimized" gear. But apart from obviously cheesy items (CLW at will, paladin-restoration at will, boots of haste for everyone), it won't affect game balance THAT much, especially if the GM factors it into CRs.
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For our next campaign we will try unlimited crafting of consumeables (potions, scrolls, wands), but no crafting of "static items" (weapons, armor, stat-boosting wondrous items).
I like that plan. Thanks for the idea. :)
I initially tell my players that all item crafting is off-limits, so if they want to take a crafting feat, talk with me first. That tends to limit the create-our-own-loot pretty quickly.
But I like the idea of only crafting consumables. Otherwise Craft Wondrous Item is a very useful/powerful feat if the party has the cash available.
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Of course, for a mere 2,000gp that Summoner could be making himself a Headband of Alluring Charisma which actually boosts his magical power... so be happy that he's planning on wasting his headband slot on other stuff instead... ;)
You can add extra abilities to the same item by increasing the price of all the not-the-most-expensive abilities by 50% (only one gets the "most expensive" slot if there is a tie). So a 4000gp headband of charisma and a 2500gp headband of spellcraft could be combined to make a 7750gp headband of charisma and spellcraft.
One of my characters, a cleric who is basically an artificer, currently has an "Artificer's Spectacles" which give him +8 to spellcraft. He's spending money now so that he won't lose a ton more later. It's like insurance :)
I'm curious about your artificier-cleric?
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An item I'd take a look at is Boots of Striding & Springing.
Boots of Striding and Springing
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot feet; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
These boots increase the wearer’s base land speed by 10 feet.
In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement
bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can
jump with a +5 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, longstrider, creator must
have 5 ranks in the Acrobatics skill; Cost 2,750 gp
I've always thought this was a great way to limit skill bonus items. They have to have ranks equal to the bonus in the skill.
And the final say on the item creation should be the DM. Not all magic items are created equal. I heard one developer say once that magic item creation is as much art as science. Just because you can make an item using the formulas that continually grants True Strike for 8000 gp, doesn't mean you should allow it. I'm not saying you should deny all creativity, but they need to be balanced with similar items and you're well within your rights as DM to assign additional prerequisites to PC crafted items.
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An item I'd take a look at is Boots of Striding & Springing.
I've always thought this was a great way to limit skill bonus items. They have to have ranks equal to the bonus in the skill.Boots of Striding and Springing
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot feet; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
These boots increase the wearer’s base land speed by 10 feet.
In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement
bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can
jump with a +5 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, longstrider, creator must
have 5 ranks in the Acrobatics skill; Cost 2,750 gp
...Or add 5 to the DC. Not a bad way to make certain items harder to make, though.
One of my characters, a cleric who is basically an artificer, currently has an "Artificer's Spectacles" which give him +8 to spellcraft. He's spending money now so that he won't lose a ton more later. It's like insurance :)I'm curious about your artificier-cleric?
Started out as a cleric of heroism and revolution, and is slowly focusing on a lot of artificer stuff like creating items. Soon he'll be taking Craft Construct and making Homunculi that can craft items for him (using rules from Eberron), and will take a PrC that gives an extra domain (Artifice, obviously). And once he has enough constructs under his command, and enough crossbows / spears to give to people, he'll start a revolution.
Here are some possible solutions:Solution 1: Talk to your players, explain what you want with crafting and try to reach a consensus on what constitutes a "cheesy" item and which kinds of items should be banned. (Best solution.)
Solution 2: Lay down the GM-hammer and restrict crafting to just the already existing items in the Core Rulebook. Or ban crafting outright. (This might be the most undiplomatic solution, and will upset a lot of players.)
Solution 3: Don't ban anything, but reduce amount of loot and time available to the players. In this way they don't get 100% more gear and can't create everything themselves. (A bit sneaky, but restricting time is actually just common sense, the PCs can't expect the BBEG to respect a "crafting time-out".)
Solution 4: Don't ban anything and allow full crafting, but up the difficulty of encounters (adding 1-2 CR to account for the insane lvls of loot). (This is the best solution for a party who want to go the min-max way and feel like their characters are super-powerful.)
My Kingmaker game is using #2a, with the addition of banning the Craft Wondrous Item feat. So it just applies to what they can purchase/commission. They're just getting their city started, so they're just starting to be able to craft, so I'm hoping this keeps it reasonable. They seemed OK with it. Really, it's not hard to point to the fact that the crafting table are just guidelines and say "If it doesn't exist as an item, you can't buy it any more than you can cast a spell that isn't in a book."
My Kingmaker game is using #2a, with the addition of banning the Craft Wondrous Item feat. So it just applies to what they can purchase/commission. They're just getting their city started, so they're just starting to be able to craft, so I'm hoping this keeps it reasonable. They seemed OK with it. Really, it's not hard to point to the fact that the crafting table are just guidelines and say "If it doesn't exist as an item, you can't buy it any more than you can cast a spell that isn't in a book."
Here are some possible solutions:Solution 1: Talk to your players, explain what you want with crafting and try to reach a consensus on what constitutes a "cheesy" item and which kinds of items should be banned. (Best solution.)
Solution 2: Lay down the GM-hammer and restrict crafting to just the already existing items in the Core Rulebook. Or ban crafting outright. (This might be the most undiplomatic solution, and will upset a lot of players.)
Solution 3: Don't ban anything, but reduce amount of loot and time available to the players. In this way they don't get 100% more gear and can't create everything themselves. (A bit sneaky, but restricting time is actually just common sense, the PCs can't expect the BBEG to respect a "crafting time-out".)
Solution 4: Don't ban anything and allow full crafting, but up the difficulty of encounters (adding 1-2 CR to account for the insane lvls of loot). (This is the best solution for a party who want to go the min-max way and feel like their characters are super-powerful.)
...but you can research your own spells.
...but you can research your own spells.My Kingmaker game is using #2a, with the addition of banning the Craft Wondrous Item feat. So it just applies to what they can purchase/commission. They're just getting their city started, so they're just starting to be able to craft, so I'm hoping this keeps it reasonable. They seemed OK with it. Really, it's not hard to point to the fact that the crafting table are just guidelines and say "If it doesn't exist as an item, you can't buy it any more than you can cast a spell that isn't in a book."
Here are some possible solutions:Solution 1: Talk to your players, explain what you want with crafting and try to reach a consensus on what constitutes a "cheesy" item and which kinds of items should be banned. (Best solution.)
Solution 2: Lay down the GM-hammer and restrict crafting to just the already existing items in the Core Rulebook. Or ban crafting outright. (This might be the most undiplomatic solution, and will upset a lot of players.)
Solution 3: Don't ban anything, but reduce amount of loot and time available to the players. In this way they don't get 100% more gear and can't create everything themselves. (A bit sneaky, but restricting time is actually just common sense, the PCs can't expect the BBEG to respect a "crafting time-out".)
Solution 4: Don't ban anything and allow full crafting, but up the difficulty of encounters (adding 1-2 CR to account for the insane lvls of loot). (This is the best solution for a party who want to go the min-max way and feel like their characters are super-powerful.)
True, but there's no mechanics for doing so. Just "here's an idea of what might be involved." If the GM wants to go down that route, then they shouldn't have any problems allowing unrestricted crafting, either.