|
Can you upgrade Named Magic Armor/Weapons in PFS?
For example if I buy a Breastplate of Command which is equal to +2 breastplate can I later upgrade it to +3 breastplate?
The main issue I have with it is that the special abilities for named items don't aew not generally on the Enhancement charts so it may be difficult to price them, unless they are just considered a flat GP addtion to the price *Which is what I do*.
If I can do that in PFS do I just pay the difference between +2 and +3 (5000 gp)?
|
|
As far as I know you can't upgrade the "named" magic items at all, PFS or regular. Houserule of course is another story. Unfortunately I don't have a link to that ruling handy or I would provide it, but I know I've seen it said on the boards before.
I looked at that in the RPG book prior to posting this, and I could not see anything in there that said you could not upgrade "Named Weapons/Armor"
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
related
From this I would extrapolate, that no sort of customizing is legal within PFS.
My understanding is that you cannot by or upgrade to anything not explicitly legalized in the core rules, additional ressources document, or a chronicle sheet.
Special items such as armor and weapons can therefore not be modified.
|
|
From this I would extrapolate, that no sort of customizing is legal within PFS.
My understanding is that you cannot by or upgrade to anything not explicitly legalized in the core rules, additional ressources document, or a chronicle sheet.
Special items such as armor and weapons can therefore not be modified.
You are reading something totally different then I am, if you get that out of that.
Upgrading Weapons and Armor is Legal in the Core rules, so by that extrapolation I see it as you can upgrade Named Weapons and Armor because they are Weapons and Armor, just with extra abilities and a Name.
Can you upgrade Named Magic Armor/Weapons in PFS?
For example if I buy a Breastplate of Command which is equal to +2 breastplate can I later upgrade it to +3 breastplate?
The main issue I have with it is that the special abilities for named items don't aew not generally on the Enhancement charts so it may be difficult to price them, unless they are just considered a flat GP addtion to the price *Which is what I do*.
If I can do that in PFS do I just pay the difference between +2 and +3 (5000 gp)?
No, you can't upgrade.
It's a control issue, not a legality issue. Yes, in the open game, you can. But if they allow customization of armor, they have to allow customization of everything, and you'll start seeing people take named items and 'upgrading' them in multiple directions, figuring out the cost of special abilities and grafting them back and forth, and it spins out of control.
So, nope. It keeps play on an even keel.
===Aelryinth
|
I looked at this when it come up a month ago. The 3.0/3.5 rules specifically disallowed upgrading of named armor/weapons, but that text is not present in Pathfinder.
I suspect that this was an error on the part of Paizo and allowing upgrades of these items which are not "standard" priced may be unbalancing. With the PFS limits on item purchases and upgrades, I definitely wouldn't try to do it unless Mark specifically allows it.
|
|
I looked at this when it come up a month ago. The 3.0/3.5 rules specifically disallowed upgrading of named armor/weapons, but that text is not present in Pathfinder.
I suspect that this was an error on the part of Paizo and allowing upgrades of these items which are not "standard" priced may be unbalancing. With the PFS limits on item purchases and upgrades, I definitely wouldn't try to do it unless Mark specifically allows it.
That is why I brought it up, in PF RPG it is allowed, unless they they decide to change that later, but Posted this to see if Mark has any input or if someone posted it in and was answered, my search did not find anything.
|
Making named items unupgradeable makes them a poor choice mainly. Since the whole upgrading thing is basically derived from the old Living Greyhawk campaign (in which upgrading was allowed, although 3.5 didn't allow it), and it was created to keep items viable for purchase. Making named items unable to upgrade doesn't seem logical at all. What makes them so special?
Named items should be treated just as any other magical items. They can't be bought as any lesser version, but you sure should be allowed to make them better.
|
|
From this I would extrapolate, that no sort of customizing is legal within PFS.
My understanding is that you cannot by or upgrade to anything not explicitly legalized in the core rules, additional ressources document, or a chronicle sheet.
Special items such as armor and weapons can therefore not be modified.
You are reading something totally different then I am, if you get that out of that.
Upgrading Weapons and Armor is Legal in the Core rules, so by that extrapolation I see it as you can upgrade Named Weapons and Armor because they are Weapons and Armor, just with extra abilities and a Name.
That's probably because we are interested in getting two different answers.
In the link above Mark is answering a general question about customizing magical items within the premise of Pathfinder Society OP, not the PRPG in general. His answer to you then will probably apply to this question as well.
|
|
That's probably because we are interested in getting two different answers.In the link above Mark is answering a general question about customizing magical items within the premise of Pathfinder Society OP, not the PRPG in general. His answer to you then will probably apply to this question as well.
Perhaps...
I see it as Upgrading like any magic weapon or armor while you see it as customizing like adding a new power to a Magical item that originally does not have it, Like making a Ring of Protection +1 to a Ring of Evasion/Protection +1 which is explicitly not allowed in PFS, while Upgrading a +3 Breastplate to a + 4 Glamered Breastplate is allowed, which is how I see upgrading Named Weapons/Armor falls.
|
|
Since we are unable to buy a Wand of Magic Missile or Cure Light Wounds, with a caster level of 2+, it would be safe to assume we can’t upgrade named items.
The process is described in the rules on how to, but since the items don’t appear in any of the charts it is disallowed in Society play.
Your collation between Wands and Armor and Weapons make no sense. What you are talking about has nothing to do with Upgrading Magical Weapons and Armor, which is allowed in PFS.
And they do appear in the Chart. The enhancements being upgraded are the same enhancements being upgraded with non named Magical Weapons and Armor.
|
|
I am unclear as to which way to go, but the example that always comes to mind for me is Elven Chain as that seems to me to be a prime candidate for upgrading.Considering it's non-magical and masterwork quality (mithral armor) that shouldn't be a problem.
-James
Except that it is a named armor. So if you can't upgrade Celestial armor, then you can't upgrade elven chain either. I just noticed another one that makes me scratch my head, Adamantine Breastplate, that seems like something that an unknowing player could upgrade just by accident. Kinda makes you go hmmmmm. :-)
|
|
Has this question been asked in the general RPG board?
This might be a cases by case issue, but still needs review.
For me there was never a question in my mind that this was not possible by the PF RPG rules so I would not have posted a similar question there.
My only question was not was it possible by the rules of the RPG but was it allowed in PFS.
It seems it has never been asked before so it will either have to wait for an answer by Mark or fall into obscurity and not touched. If that happens I will not attempt it on any of my PFS characters because it could be "controversial", and I try to stay away from stuff like that.
As far as I know you can't upgrade the "named" magic items at all, PFS or regular. Houserule of course is another story. Unfortunately I don't have a link to that ruling handy or I would provide it, but I know I've seen it said on the boards before.I looked at that in the RPG book prior to posting this, and I could not see anything in there that said you could not upgrade "Named Weapons/Armor"
The cost to upgrade those items is undefined, however. You can make the assumption that the special qualities of named magical armor add a flat cost to the price of the armor (instead of multiplying it by a factor or being the equivalent of a +N enhancement, say), but that's purely speculation.
Some cases are particularly unclear, like the Sword of the Planes. Is it a +1 sword with an extra cost, or a +4 sword with a discount? Who can say?
|
|
The cost to upgrade those items is undefined, however. You can make the assumption that the special qualities of named magical armor add a flat cost to the price of the armor (instead of multiplying it by a factor or being the equivalent of a +N enhancement, say), but that's purely speculation.Some cases are particularly unclear, like the Sword of the Planes. Is it a +1 sword with an extra cost, or a +4 sword with a discount? Who can say?
I can see that being questionable, of course my mind went directly to it being a flat coast and I did not really think it would be an equivalent +n enhancement.
But that could be a good question for the rules forum and this could wait for that to be in FAQ or to wait for it to be addressed in the Ultimate Equipment book.
|
|
The cost to upgrade those items is undefined, however. You can make the assumption that the special qualities of named magical armor add a flat cost to the price of the armor (instead of multiplying it by a factor or being the equivalent of a +N enhancement, say), but that's purely speculation.Some cases are particularly unclear, like the Sword of the Planes. Is it a +1 sword with an extra cost, or a +4 sword with a discount? Who can say?
I can see that being questionable, of course my mind went directly to it being a flat coast and I did not really think it would be an equivalent +n enhancement.
But that could be a good question for the rules forum and this could wait for that to be in FAQ or to wait for it to be addressed in the Ultimate Equipment book.
My thoughts were that if it was allowed in the general sense of rules, we would have a precedence.
|
|
--- snip ---
But like others have said this is a Core rules issue and likely should be moved there, the side issue on whether PFS allows it if its legal is a separate case,
-James
I disagree, for anything except PFS the local GM is going to make a ruling as to whether he/she will allow what is a grey area and move on. Only in Society play is an interpretation of how this mechanic works required.
|
|
Its not a question of it being 'named' or appearing on a chart, but rather what the enchantment is.In the case of elven chain, adamantine breastplate, etc there is not enchantment.
Note that you don't have a prohibition here on enchanting 'named items' but rather a requirement for enchanting, etc.
But like others have said this is a Core rules issue and likely should be moved there, the side issue on whether PFS allows it if its legal is a separate case,
-James
Sorry, it is still early here.
The question was very specifically about enhancing (upgrading) named items from the magic items section of the rule books. The opinion was put forth that 'named' magic items couldn't be upgraded (upgraded seems a word less likely to misinterpreted). I stated that I found that blanket statement to be hard to work with for the two examples that I gave. As far as elven chain not being enchanted there can be little argument because it specifically called out that way in the stat block. I would argue that it does have a specific property added to the item (taking a medium armor and making into a light armor) which is covered under argument of whether there is pricing for upgrading the elven chain.
|
|
I disagree, for anything except PFS the local GM is going to make a ruling as to whether he/she will allow what is a grey area and move on. Only in Society play is an interpretation of how this mechanic works required.--- snip ---
But like others have said this is a Core rules issue and likely should be moved there, the side issue on whether PFS allows it if its legal is a separate case,
-James
No, James has a good point. Occasionally the developers show there and explain their thought processes on what should happen and then when they get the chance they update the FAQ with that info. Having ther thoughts helps.
That's not to say that play outside of PFS doesn't do exactly what you say, it's just that starting on another board for clerification can't hurt.
|
|
In the absence of another ruling, I would say you can upgrade any "named" item that you can construct (rules-wise) normally. So you could upgrade an adamantine breastplate, for example.
However, you could not upgrade something that does not fit the standard pricing, like a Sword of the Planes.
My opinion only. Probably worth asking on the rules boards, tho I still think it is worth asking for FAQ.
|
|
I look at upgrading armor a little differently. First Adamantine Breastplate and Elven Chain are not IMO "named" armors. They are a type of armor made out of a specific material, that is all. They have no extra special abilities. So, I believe they can be upgraded normally.
I think that Celestial Armor, Rhino Hide armor and other "named" armors with special abilities can be upgraded to an extent. You can not upgrade Celestial Armor from +3 to +4 because we don't know exactly how the armor was built. Is it a +3 armor with an add or gp cost? Is it a +4 armor with a smaller add on gp cost? We just don't know. So without an understanding how the armor was built, I don't see how that could be allowed. That said, I have no problem with adding gp only enhancements. For example adding Shadow to Celestial Armor for an extra 3,750 gp. Or you could have Undead Controlling Breastplate of Command by adding 49,000 gp to the 25,400 gp Breastplate of Command.
So IMO you can not abilities and bonuses to named armor that have a cost given in terms of armor bonuses, but you can add abilities to armor that just have a gold piece cost.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
|
|
I look at upgrading armor a little differently. First Adamantine Breastplate and Elven Chain are not IMO "named" armors. They are a type of armor made out of a specific material, that is all. They have no extra special abilities. So, I believe they can be upgraded normally.
--- good stuff ---
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
How do you handle Elven Chain? It does have a specific enhancement not available anywhere else. It is light armor of a type that is medium armor otherwise. Chainmail is medium armor except if it is Elven Chain.
|
|
How do you handle Elven Chain? It does have a specific enhancement not available anywhere else. It is light armor of a type that is medium armor otherwise. Chainmail is medium armor except if it is Elven Chain.
By the rules.
Chainmail: Medium Armor, +6 AC, +2 Max Dex, -5 Check Penalty, 30% Spell Failure.
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.
Errrrrr ... OK. Just noticed a line that Elven Chain is light armor, not 'treated as'. But, Elven Chain is nonmagical, so I have no problem adding magical enhancement to it. I would treat it as other masterwork armors for how you add magical enhancements to it.
So it is a (nonmagical) named armor that I would allow to be upgraded.
-Swiftbrook
|
Figuring out the costing for named magical items is a can of worms, which special abilities are like a + and which are flat increase seems problematic to determine.
Not allowing a player to upgrade his chain shirt because he wrote down Mithral Shirt instead of Mithral Chain Shirt seems asinine. The Mithral Chain bothers me a little bit since it's different than the Mithral Chainmail but since it's nonmagical to start with figuring out costs for it is no more difficult then a non named item.
This yahoo's opinion of the solution:
Allowing full normal upgrading of non-magical named items and allow only gp (ie no +) upgrades for named magical items. (or for extra simplicity I wouldn't really object to not allowing modification of named magical items at all)
|
|
Just noticed a line that Elven Chain is light armor, not 'treated as'.Indeed it is -- and it flies deliberately in the face of the IMO wrong-headed ruling elsewhere regarding mithral armors and needed proficiencies.
No, you can't upgrade.Is this answer a strenuous desire, or an actual rule you've discovered?
It's a control issue, not a legality issue. Yes, in the open game, you can. But if they allow customization of armor, they have to allow customization of everything, and you'll start seeing people take named items and 'upgrading' them in multiple directions, figuring out the cost of special abilities and grafting them back and forth, and it spins out of control.
How do you figure it spins out of control in a campaign level-capped at 12th? Any really game-changing piece of equipment is already so prohibitively expensive that upgrading is usually not even practical (i.e., theoretical +4 upgraded Celestial Chain will cost 29,400; and if the character already has a stratospheric AC due in part to that armor, blowing 7,000 for an additional +1 non-touch-applicable bump is an arguably suboptimal expenditure of cash if he hasn't already upgraded all of his +1 rings and amulets to +2 prior).
|
|
How do you figure it spins out of control in a campaign level-capped at 12th? Any really game-changing piece of equipment is already so prohibitively expensive that upgrading is usually not even practical (i.e., theoretical +4 upgraded Celestial Chain will cost 29,400; and if the character already has a stratospheric AC due in part to that armor, blowing 7,000 for an additional +1 non-touch-applicable bump is an arguably suboptimal expenditure of cash if he hasn't already upgraded all of his +1 rings and amulets to +2 prior).
But this is where the problem comes in.
How do you know it is a 7000 gp bump?Celestial Armour's price puts it somewhere between +4 and +5 armour equivalent.
So a +1 bump could also cost anywhere between 9000 and 11000 gp, if you assume the Celestial portion is at least a +1 upgrade.
After all, if you tried to raise +3 Light Fortification armour to +4, it would cost you 9000. And +3 Celestial is numerically more valuable than +3 Fortification.
EDIT: You are correct if you assume Celestial is a flat-rate upgrade (like Slick), but that is not spelled out in the rules.
|
|
How do you figure it spins out of control in a campaign level-capped at 12th? Any really game-changing piece of equipment is already so prohibitively expensive that upgrading is usually not even practical (i.e., theoretical +4 upgraded Celestial Chain will cost 29,400; and if the character already has a stratospheric AC due in part to that armor, blowing 7,000 for an additional +1 non-touch-applicable bump is an arguably suboptimal expenditure of cash if he hasn't already upgraded all of his +1 rings and amulets to +2 prior).
You could equip your tiger animal companion with a rhinohide barding at afordable cost. Suddenly that animal has the capability of doing +10d6 on every charge attack.
There will be many more loop wholes if upgrading named special items is allowed.
|
|
But this is where the problem comes in.
How do you know it is a 7000 gp bump? Celestial Armour's price puts it somewhere between +4 and +5 armour equivalent.
The bump is extrapolated from Celestial Chain being described as +3 elven chain. The other effects would be considered non-enhancement fixed-cost type "Special Ability" additions (i.e., similar to adding Slick) -- why assume so? Because there's otherwise no reason for it to have been described as +3 armor.
|
|
You could equip your tiger animal companion with a rhinohide barding at afordable cost. Suddenly that animal has the capability of doing +10d6 on every charge attack.There will be many more loop wholes if upgrading named special items is allowed.
You can do that now, you just (arguably) cannot make that barding also have the shadow enhancement or a higher enchantment bonus than standard.
-James
In PRPG certainly, but in PFS I am not convinced that that is true.
|
|
The bump is extrapolated from Celestial Chain being described as +3 elven chain.It's not +3 elven chainmail however.
If you look at the cost to create vs the cost of the item this is borne out.
22,400gp to buy, but 11,350gp to make.
You then figure that 300gp is in material cost and 11,050gp is the enchantment cost.
This does not account for a suit of elven chainmail, and hence it is not.
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.Again no reference to elven chain, though it does weigh the same.
Semantic quibble. "+3 (mithral) chainmail" and "+3 elven chain" are the same thing.
The extra cost is for all the other benefits (flight, daylight, increased DEX limite).
Again: There is no reason whatsoever for the armor to be described as "+3" in the text unless that information is to be useful in some way.
Step back from Celestial to take a look at Boneless Leather (~12,000gp) which is described as +1 leather with a bunch of other useful benefits -- but you'd be completely out of your mind to buy it if you knew you couldn't upgrade it.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Semantic quibble. "+3 (mithral) chainmail" and "+3 elven chain" are the same thing.
No, they're not. Mithral lightens an armor's weight category for most purposes (movement, for instance), but not proficiency. Elven Chain counts as light even for proficiency.
|
|
From what James Jacobs has said in this post, no. Specific armor "is what it is"
Can you upgrade Named Magic Armor/Weapons in PFS?
For example if I buy a Breastplate of Command which is equal to +2 breastplate can I later upgrade it to +3 breastplate?
The main issue I have with it is that the special abilities for named items don't aew not generally on the Enhancement charts so it may be difficult to price them, unless they are just considered a flat GP addtion to the price *Which is what I do*.
If I can do that in PFS do I just pay the difference between +2 and +3 (5000 gp)?
|
|
No you can't. Or rather you can only upgrade to an item you can find in the Allowed Resources list. None of those tomes has a price structure for upgraded named items. If you can't find it in a book, or a chronicle, you can't buy it, nor can up upgrade something to it.
Your only option is to sell the item completely at half price to fund the purchase of an allowable item.
This.