This is a continuation/focus of my thread on a survivable arcane caster.
Looks like we will be doing the Carrion Crown adventure path which goes through about 15th level by what I have read on the boards.
Resources avail are Core Rulebook, Bestiary, Game Master's Guide, free Character Traits download, free Carrion Crown Players Guide download, by the time we start I will have the Inner Sea Campaign Setting, and any free official pathfinder online (with GM approval).
Do not have the APG or Ultimate books.
Abilities: str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 12 wis 7 cha 18 (all raises to cha)
Race: maybe gnome for size and con maybe human for additional skill points
Paladin to level 2
Sorcerer with Celestial bloodline for the remainder
Traits: Magical Knack and ?
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Spell Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Extend Spell (from bloodline), Mounted Combat (from bllodline)
Really not sure about about the SF, GSF and AS. Do summoned monsters end up useful very often in pathfinder? Seems like they might with the bloodline and AS boost.
This will really crank up my saves, give some emergency healing (prob just druid for healing), some help from smite evil, etc...
Summoning can be very useful, but I'm not sure I'd recommend spending feats on it in your case. When you're Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 7 you'll only be able to cast Summon Monster 3, while a level 9 Wizard would be able to cast Summon Monster 5. You'll be summoning a leopard or a lantern archon, while your ally is summoning a dire lion or 1d4 + 1 lantern archons. The monsters you'll be fighting by then will laugh at a leopard's attacks.
You don't look like much of a melee fighter with your low STR, so what will you do in battle until you have decent spells? Archery or just optimistic smiting?
On the plus side, you'll have access to a good range of wands...
Summoning can be very useful, but I'm not sure I'd recommend spending feats on it in your case. When you're Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 7 you'll only be able to cast Summon Monster 3, while a level 9 Wizard would be able to cast Summon Monster 5. You'll be summoning a leopard or a lantern archon, while your ally is summoning a dire lion or 1d4 + 1 lantern archons. The monsters you'll be fighting by then will laugh at a leopard's attacks.
You don't look like much of a melee fighter with your low STR, so what will you do in battle until you have decent spells? Archery or just optimistic smiting?
On the plus side, you'll have access to a good range of wands...
I see what you mean. ok I will drop the SFconj, GSFconj, and AS. That frees up 3 feats, what do you recommend.
Maybe toughness, combat casting, and empower spell...Maybe SF and GSF for illusions if I take a gnome...
And yes, I will shoot until I can cast.
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You don't make a survivable arcane caster by having a 7 Wisdom or multiclassing into non-caster classes, especially a slow progression caster (sorcerer). Two levels of paladin means your sorcerer won't have 2nd level spells until 6th level. So when a wizard has fireball (5th level), you'll still be casting burning hands.
All I know about Carrion Crown is that it is a horror campaign and your character may not survive long against a single Allip (Wisdom damage and/or drain). Which at CR 3, could be something encountered in your first session.
You appear to lack a plan. Spell focus conjuration and augment summpning are fine, if you build a character around it. Dodge and mobility are of minimal use to a caster who stays out of melee. Spell Penetration and Greater spell penetration are useful at higher levels (I generally start to consider them between 7-9), but you're not likely to live that long.
You haven't said what else is in your party, so it is hard to say what the group needs, but you need to determine what your niche will be in the party and ensure that you can fill it effectively.
Here's my critique, all is opinion only. I am assuming paladin2/sorcerer 7 and ability scores to be mandatory.
Race: gnome makes sense. halfling or human would also be very good choices.
Feats: I'm not seeing a lot of consistency here. Spell penetration is not often an issue and it can be bypassed with the right spell choice or through the use of other combat strategies. I would suggest a rethink of these choices. Your summoning choices seem to have a consistency, but the rest are all over the place.
Saves: You're probably covered here. With paladin bonus and will saves on fast progression with sorcerer, you might just get away with dumping WIS.
Traits: a +2 to initiative is always a good idea. There are a couple of traits that do that. Otherwise, magic lineage gives you one spell you can spam into the ground.
Hope that helps.
You don't make a survivable arcane caster by having a 7 Wisdom or multiclassing into non-caster classes, especially a slow progression caster (sorcerer). Two levels of paladin means your sorcerer won't have 2nd level spells until 6th level. So when a wizard has fireball (5th level), you'll still be casting burning hands.
All I know about Carrion Crown is that it is a horror campaign and your character may not survive long against a single Allip (Wisdom damage and/or drain). Which at CR 3, could be something encountered in your first session.
You appear to lack a plan. Spell focus conjuration and augment summpning are fine, if you build a character around it. Dodge and mobility are of minimal use to a caster who stays out of melee. Spell Penetration and Greater spell penetration are useful at higher levels (I generally start to consider them between 7-9), but you're not likely to live that long.
You haven't said what else is in your party, so it is hard to say what the group needs, but you need to determine what your niche will be in the party and ensure that you can fill it effectively.
Discussion started here
"http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinder RPG/advice/arcaneCasterWithSurvivabilityBoosted&page=1&source=searc h#16"the feats aren't in order just listed, i agree those are for later. rest of the group is not set. but historically, our group has had troupble keeping single class casters alive. saves have been a big problem. yeah, 7 wis may be too low.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinder RPG/advice/arcaneCasterWithSurvivabilityBoosted&page=1&source=searc h#16
Couldn't find it - took me to store.
hmmm... wierd, try this
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/archives/arcaneCasterWithSurvivabilityBoosted
You don't make a survivable arcane caster by having a 7 Wisdom
Why not? Wisdom is pretty much a dump stat for Sorcerers and Wizards.
This is a continuation/focus of my thread on a survivable arcane caster.
Looks like we will be doing the Carrion Crown adventure path which goes through about 15th level by what I have read on the boards.
Resources avail are Core Rulebook, Bestiary, Game Master's Guide, free Character Traits download, free Carrion Crown Players Guide download, by the time we start I will have the Inner Sea Campaign Setting, and any free official pathfinder online (with GM approval).
Do not have the APG or Ultimate books.Abilities: str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 12 wis 7 cha 18 (all raises to cha)
Race: maybe gnome for size and con maybe human for additional skill points
Paladin to level 2
Sorcerer with Celestial bloodline for the remainderTraits: Magical Knack and ?
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Spell Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Extend Spell (from bloodline), Mounted Combat (from bllodline)Really not sure about about the SF, GSF and AS. Do summoned monsters end up useful very often in pathfinder? Seems like they might with the bloodline and AS boost.
This will really crank up my saves, give some emergency healing (prob just druid for healing), some help from smite evil, etc...
I am unsure about the specifics. Are you posting for level 15? Are the ultimate xxx books forbidden, just not your first choice, or all fine? By playing a caster, do you mean full casters like witch, wizard, sorcerer? Or 6-level casters like bards as well? Only arcane or divine? Are those stats and their assignments you gave fixed or can they be moved around?
About your specific build, I do not believe it will perform well:
- Paladin will force all kinds of alignment issues onto you. While I personally do like paladins, be very sure if you really want that just to improve some saves and to gain some weapon and armor proficiencies (as I get the impression that's what you're aiming at)
- Survivability is greatly influenced by saves. Therefore I would not go that low with a save-relevant stat such as wisdom. Even if divine grace would even it out, it's just too low.
- I would not take all those spell focus and spell penetration feats. Use those feat slots for extend spell (enhance duration of your buffs), defensive combat training, and potentially the dodge/mobility line of feats - getting away from danger seems to be important for you. Nimble moves might assist with that as well.
- If it's for survivability and battle prowess, the draconic bloodline will probably be more useful to you, especially since that opens up the dragon disciple route for you. Alternatively, fey bloodline with their laughing touch offers a great defense, and the aberrant bloodline allows you to deliver touch attacks at a greater distance - helps keep you save.
- Reactionary with its +2 to initiative or resilient with a +1 to fortitude might help a lot :-)
Here are some quick ideas what you could do:
- Consider the empyreal bloodline (UM). It shifts your casting stat to wisdom, so you automatically boost your will saves and perception skill checks - two things which will greatly help survivability. If you did a single level dip to monk, you could then add that wisdom directly to your AC, as well as gain a powerfull melee attack and significant boost to saves.
- Bard and magus are great melee casters due to their ability to wear armor. I found armor to be incredibly useful, especially since you can cheaply add special properties such as slick and energy resistance to it.
- Bard and witch are great for survivability due to their access to healing spells, buffs and debuffs.
- Of course, if divine characters are an option, inquisitor is pretty strong, as are oracles, druids, and clerics. I won't go into detail here because I get the feeling you are aiming for arcane casters.
- If you go the prepared casters route such as wizard or witch, consider the preferred spell feat. It gives you limited spontaneous casting and allows you to not prepare a spell that you might need all the time. Examples: vanish, shield, resist energy, dimension door...
- For pure casters such as wizards and sorcerers, consider the feats toughness, great fortitude, defensive combat training, skill focus (acrobatics and perception), combat casting and improved initiative. They will help you act before your enemies, be harder to grapple/trip/etc., tumble away, make your vital fortitude saves...
- Be sure you have at least one spell for every save to target an opponent - if you bring them down, they are no threat to you anymore. Have some spells that do not have spell resistance (conjuration school), some that require an attack roll but allow no save, and some that do not require a save but no attack roll. Have a few save-or-suck-spells such as hold person, but do not focus on them - undead and others are (without special feats) immune to them. Standard buffs such as haste are fantastic not only for your group but also for yourself, alter self gives you many useful abilities such as darkvision (see the enemy)or a swim speed (get away from them fast)
- Have a melee weapon and actually draw it.
- Concealment-giving spells such as blur or displacement or spells like mirror image are superior to AC buffs, particularly in higher levels.
- Cloaks of resistence, boots of springing and striding, bracers of armor or enhanced armor/shields (if you can use them), rings of protection, amulett of natural armor... They will go a long way to help you stay alive.
- Don't focus on attack and defense too much. Your character could become boring otherwise. My rule of thumb regarding spell selection: one-fourth each into utility spells, offense, defense, and fun stuff :-)
So much for a start. If you answered some of the questions above, I could maybe give some further input. I have played full casters and part-casters (bards etc.) in what I felt pretty challenging campaigns, and I survived through all of them with the basic principles mentioned above. It certainly is doable! :-)
You don't make a survivable arcane caster by having a 7 WisdomWhy not? Wisdom is pretty much a dump stat for Sorcerers and Wizards.
Hm, those characters would be dead very quickly in one of my campaigns. Suggestion (or any kind of will-targeting spell), harpy's songs, wisdom ability drain and damage... Wis is just too important a stat to allow for a negative IMO :-)
You don't make a survivable arcane caster by having a 7 WisdomWhy not? Wisdom is pretty much a dump stat for Sorcerers and Wizards.
It is all up to the GM and playstyle. Failing Will saves is a bad thing, and so is failing perception checks, at least in my games. Now if the DM does not bother with such things then I would agree to dump them.
This is a continuation/focus of my thread on a survivable arcane caster.
Looks like we will be doing the Carrion Crown adventure path which goes through about 15th level by what I have read on the boards.
Resources avail are Core Rulebook, Bestiary, Game Master's Guide, free Character Traits download, free Carrion Crown Players Guide download, by the time we start I will have the Inner Sea Campaign Setting, and any free official pathfinder online (with GM approval).
Do not have the APG or Ultimate books.Abilities: str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 12 wis 7 cha 18 (all raises to cha)
Race: maybe gnome for size and con maybe human for additional skill points
Paladin to level 2
Sorcerer with Celestial bloodline for the remainderTraits: Magical Knack and ?
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Spell Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Extend Spell (from bloodline), Mounted Combat (from bllodline)Really not sure about about the SF, GSF and AS. Do summoned monsters end up useful very often in pathfinder? Seems like they might with the bloodline and AS boost.
This will really crank up my saves, give some emergency healing (prob just druid for healing), some help from smite evil, etc...
What are the other people in your party playing. Normally multiclassing is not the most powerful option. It makes you more versatile though.
Why don't you think you can survive with a straight caster?
I am unsure about the specifics. Are you posting for level 15? Are the ultimate xxx books forbidden, just not your first choice, or all fine? By playing a caster, do you mean full casters like witch, wizard, sorcerer? Or 6-level casters like bards as well? Only arcane or divine? Are those stats and their assignments you gave fixed or can they be moved around?
About your specific build, I do not believe it will perform well:
[list]
Paladin will force all kinds of alignment issues onto you. While I personally do like paladins, be very sure if you really want that just to improve some saves and to gain some weapon and armor proficiencies (as I get the impression that's what you're aiming at)
A character to use through the carrion crown adventure path level, 1 to 15.
The ultimate books are not forbidden, but I won't have purchased them by that time. We have agreed to not use materials we don't actually have (due to issues in the past with mis-quoted material).
I don't like bards and witch isn't in the books i have. Magus is good, but too close the the duskblade i just finished with.
The alignment of paladin is fine because it is different from the most recent character (neutral boardering on evil mercenary).
I agreed that the spell focus conj are not worth it. I think they should bew replaced with defensive combat training and combat casting.
I already have improved initiative and extend spell. May add still spell. I don't find preferred spell, so I assume that is a book I don't have.
This build is for a sorcerer. I am also going to build a wizard and chose between them after I spend some time looking at them both.
I am unsure about the specifics. Are you posting for level 15? Are the ultimate xxx books forbidden, just not your first choice, or all fine? By playing a caster, do you mean full casters like witch, wizard, sorcerer? Or 6-level casters like bards as well? Only arcane or divine? Are those stats and their assignments you gave fixed or can they be moved around?
About your specific build, I do not believe it will perform well:
[list]
Paladin will force all kinds of alignment issues onto you. While I personally do like paladins, be very sure if you really want that just to improve some saves and to gain some weapon and armor proficiencies (as I get the impression that's what you're aiming at) A character to use through the carrion crown adventure path level, 1 to 15.
The ultimate books are not forbidden, but I won't have purchased them by that time. We have agreed to not use materials we don't actually have (due to issues in the past with mis-quoted material).
I don't like bards and witch isn't in the books i have.
The alignment of paladin is fine because it is different from the most recent character (neutral boardering on evil mercenary).
This build is for a sorcerer. I am also going to build a wizard and chose between them after I spend some time looking at them both.
OK, so this is what the character would look like at level 15? What point-buy do you use, or did you roll (if yes, what are the base stats)?
It is all up to the GM and playstyle. Failing Will saves is a bad thing, and so is failing perception checks, at least in my games. Now if the DM does not bother with such things then I would agree to dump them.
Well 7 may be too low, but the paladin charisma saves and good will saves for both paladin and sorc means the will save will still be higher than almost any one else.
However, like was mentioned above, I didn't consider wisdom drain. I certainly won't be able to survive much of that. So I will probably try to bump it up a bit.
Why not just go Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple? It's a relatively common build concept, and is viable enough.
What are the other people in your party playing. Normally multiclassing is not the most powerful option. It makes you more versatile though.
Why don't you think you can survive with a straight caster?
Don't really know what the others are playing for sure. Player that is almost always a 'glass cannon' melee type. He usually plays it more as a berserker though. Close and slash until target dead then next target. But he said he might try to build a tank
Player that is usually an info gathering rogue. Usually not optimized for combat. Info/burglar is primary archery distant second.Player that is often cleric, druid, or ranger. No details yet.
But none of that is engraved in stone yet.
I know it is not as powerful. But I'm trying to avoid a powerful corpse.
I want to build an arcane caster that has a better chance to survive especially at low/medium level.
The last 2 campaigns I have been in each had players that tried a sorc or wiz. Due to a number of factors like players, GM, setting, reach, ambush, intelligent opponents, etc… the casters were not able to stay out of harm’s way. Those casters seemed to spend a lot of their time (at least in the serious fights) running, evading, and/or dying. The cleric was using most of his spells healing/buffing the wizard instead of the front line types. The group was spending a lot of our cash on raises/ressurections. Eventually the players gave up and started new characters.
Therefore, I am looking for a build that can survive more than 1 or 2 rounds if he does get in melee and has good enough saves to hopefully make it if the enemy casters concentrate on him until someone can assist him.
OK, so this is what the character would look like at level 15? What point-buy do you use, or did you roll (if yes, what are the base stats)?
Sorry, forgot that. That was a 25 point buy (assuming I did the basic math right).
Why not just go Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple? It's a relatively common build concept, and is viable enough.
I seriously thought about that, but I would like to be more of a caster with this character.
A well-built and well-played caster can be just as survivable as a big fighter. It's all about control, preventing the enemies from reaching or damaging you. If you play it right, your saves and HP pool will be irrelevant, because you won't get hit.
A magus or arcane duelist bard is one way to go for a more melee-capable caster. You could also try a Wizard with the Teleportation subschool and have the ability to teleport out of a tight spot. Honestly, most fights at low-levels are, well, balanced for low level characters, so there shouldn't be anything with much of a chance of tearing you up as long as you play it right.
Slow enemies, debuff them, be sure to stand somewhere where the enemies have to provoke attacks of opportunity from the fighter, things like that. If casters really were so squishy that you have to gimp your casting ability to be more 'survivable', then there would be no high-level wizards or sorcerers in the world. The fact that there are means people are playing them right, and/or their GM isn't out to specifically screw that character over.
I recently built a gish character to go into Dragon Disciple. Sorc 4/ Fighter 1 currently. I got survivability mostly with CON 14, toughness, and favored class into HP.
But as a primary caster, I suggest you look at a 1 level Zen Archer dip, and then empyreal bloodline if you can use UM. This nets you good saves all around, a boost to AC, Bow Proficiency, Perfect Strike, Flurry of Arrows. It also opens up Arcane archer easily as with another level you get weapon focus and another bonus feat. Three levels would be putting you firmly as an archer primarily, even if you go into Arcane archer.
A well-built and well-played caster can be just as survivable as a big fighter. It's all about control, preventing the enemies from reaching or damaging you. If you play it right, your saves and HP pool will be irrelevant, because you won't get hit... and/or their GM isn't out to specifically screw that character over.
I get this response alot. You may be right that we just don't play them properly, but that doesn't match our experience. Too may times the bad guys ambush and/or surround us, the archers and/or rogue are smart enough to target the caster, big guy with reach, tough guy ignore a single AoO to squish the caster, 1 or 2 AoE spells before the protection is up, etc...
I honestly don't think the GM is out to screw the caster, but many of the bad guys are just as intelligent as the PC's. What is one of the first things most groups do? Take out either the battle caster {shrug} if it is a valid tactic for us, it is a valid tactic for them. Un-intelligent bad guys usually hit either the closest or whoever did the most damage. That still leaves a high chance for attacks going in on the battle caster.
I do intend to take several debuffs such as slow and defense such as displacement, but I need to survive long enough to cast them.
I can attest to the quality of brambleman's comment above from working with him.
I'm going to disagree with the empyreal bloodline suggestions. These are based primarily on the fact that you dumped WIS.
1) Any dump stat could be targetted by the DM and dumping is a valid strategy with other stats.
2) You lose perception/sense motive skills and will saves with a low wisdom score.
You get a bonus to perception with a number of races, helping to mitigate that. You're not going to be a scout, but from the sounds of it, the rest of your group can help too.
3) sense motive is going to be a sore spot, but its not a big deal if you play as suspicious.
4) Now the real question: will saves Let's assume normal WIS score of 12, you're at 3 below average. Add CHA from paladin (+4), and fast progression for saves. (above other characters: +2 at first level, +6 at level twenty) All other things being equal, your will save is still higher than a WIS 12 fighter by +3 at level 1 and by +9 at level 20.
Decision: Go ahead and dump WIS, you're covered in other ways.
Based on comments and further thought, I think I'm now at:
Abilities: str 10 dex 14 con 16 int 12 wis 8 cha 19 after racial mods (all raises to cha)
Race: gnome
Paladin to level 2
Sorcerer with Celestial bloodline for the remainder
Traits: Magical Knack and ? (reactionary was suggested, but I thought the second was supposed to come from the adventure path)
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Improved Initiative, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Combat Casting, Defensive Combat Training, Extend Spell (from bloodline), Mounted Combat (from bloodline)
Not sure in what order to take them though.
Talk to your DM about traits. As I understand it, you just can't have two of the same type of trait (magic, religion, regional, combat, etc.) I'd suggest dodge first as its still relevant during your first levels as a paladin. (You also get to wear armour for this time period, which is fun.) Combat casting or even arcane armour training would both be good choices after that. You've already got proficiency, why not eliminate spell failure chance and wear some light armor to boost your AC.
Talk to your DM about traits. As I understand it, you just can't have two of the same type of trait (magic, religion, regional, combat, etc.)...
it's all good.
The Carrion Crown trait 'Chance Savior' also gives a +2 to initiative.
On mine I took the race trait Elven Reflexes, also for +2 initiative.
But if your stats are set, then the WIS based suggestions are of course invalid. Thanks, Magnu123, I missed that in my analysis.
If youre set on your sorc/Paly mix, then what youre going to want to do is take Mage Armor as one of your spells. Dragon bloodline gets this as their first bonus spell, otherwise take immediately. You then spend your armor budget on a lesser rod of Extend Spell. Cast long before trouble, this is now your armor. By level 4, with extend, this covers an 8 hour adventuring day, at 12th level it is all day protection, renewed each morning.
On a further note on Hit points. If you go with human you may want to sactifice the 1 hp favored class bonus for the extra spell bonus instead. The feat can buy you toughness to make up for it.
It is all up to the GM and playstyle. Failing Will saves is a bad thing, and so is failing perception checks, at least in my games. Now if the DM does not bother with such things then I would agree to dump them.
But this is true for all characters and at least Sor & Wiz get good Will save progression.
As for perception: Usually it is enough if one or two characters in the party have good perception (often druids or rangers). If they detect an ambush / enemies, they can alarm the rest of the party.
If you are consistently getting ambushed without the opportunity to have buffs up, then your party is doing it completely wrong. The best ability you have is the ability to be prepared. That's why having scouts and the ability to initiate combat on your terms, as well as hopefully win initiative/have a surprise round, can be some of the biggest deciding factors in any combat.
But if you're blindly walking ahead into traps and ambushes without the vaguest bit of preparation then yes, your squishies are absolutely going to die.
If you are consistently getting ambushed without the opportunity to have buffs up, then your party is doing it completely wrong.
Saying that they're doing it wrong is unhelpful and without knowing the campaign, a little disrespectful. Depending on situation and character level, it can be more or less impossible to prepare properly.
That's why having scouts and the ability to initiate combat on your terms, as well as hopefully win initiative/have a surprise round, can be some of the biggest deciding factors in any combat.
A moving scout usually has a harder time to sneak than an ambusher laying still.
Say, for example, you're going through a mountainous area with some light vegetation at character level 2. The DM's put a hard encounter (CR4) in front of you - 3 goblin 1st level rogues laying an ambush with heavy crossbows around 100 ft. up on the mountain. Each also carries a javelin, a heavy wooden shield and a battleaxe and wears leather armor (easily affordable at 1st level). The cliffs are steep and the circumstances add +1 to the CR (4 creatures CR 1/3 + 1 = CR 4).
They've camouflaged themselves and hidden in some bushes, trained on the area below with crossbows readied. They've taken 10 on stealth, having a total of 21 (+3 dex, +4 rank/class, +4 size), and on perception with a total of 15 (+4 rank/class, +1 wis), with 17 against the area they specifically watch (favorable conditions).
The scout, say a 2nd level elven rogue, tries to keep down as well as he can but there isn't concealment or cover everywhere, so the DC of a visible creature applies (base 0). His perception is 19 (+5 rank/class, +1 wis, +3 focus) if taking 10, 29 if taking 20 (though it takes far more time that way).
Regardless, the goblins spot the scout at 150-170 ft. away, while the scout needs to get within 80 ft. to spot the goblins by taking 20 and can't spot them by taking 10. If they spot the scout (which they will if he's to do any useful scouting), he'll be a pincushion before long. Their to-hit is normally +5 (+3 dex, +1 focus, +1 size) for 1d8+1d6 damage, and the scout's flat-footed.
If you are consistently getting ambushed without the opportunity to have buffs up, then your party is doing it completely wrong.Saying that they're doing it wrong is unhelpful and without knowing the campaign, a little disrespectful. Depending on situation and character level, it can be more or less impossible to prepare properly.
** spoiler omitted **...
Anyway, claiming that a Sor or Wiz with Wsidom 7 is not "survivable" is a little outlandish. I have a Wizard and a Paladin with Wis 7 in my group, use the rules as written as far as ambushes / initiating encounters / Will-saves are concerned and the characters so far (lvl 9/10) had little trouble.
If you are consistently getting ambushed without the opportunity to have buffs up, then your party is doing it completely wrong...if you're blindly walking ahead into traps and ambushes without the vaguest bit of preparation ...
Ambushes have happened, but not constantly. That was only 1 of the 9 things I listed that have pounded on the caster. And probably not the most common. The most common was intelligent enemies that try and take out the battle caster first.
We do try to prepare when possible, but we don't always know when/what is coming at us.
We have found it very difficult for a classic goup of 4 (melee, healer, sneak, caster) to always keep 1 or more completely out of harms way. especially when significantly outnumbered.
...But if your stats are set, then the WIS based suggestions are of course invalid...
Stats are not set but I don't have UM where you said that feat comes from.
...On a further note on Hit points. If you go with human you may want to sactifice the 1 hp favored class bonus for the extra spell bonus instead. The feat can buy you toughness to make up for it.
Where is this, did I miss it or is it a book I don't have?
Saying that they're doing it wrong is unhelpful and without knowing the campaign, a little disrespectful. Depending on situation and character level, it can be more or less impossible to prepare properly.
** spoiler omitted **...
LOL, your set-up is almost exactly what happened to us at least once. Except it was gnomes with atalas(sp?) (spear throwers).
...
Abilities: str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 12 wis 7 cha 18 (all raises to cha)Race: maybe gnome for size and con maybe human for additional skill points
Paladin to level 2
Sorcerer with Celestial bloodline for the remainder
...
The general advice about which feats, spells etc. to pick I gave above are still valid, so I won't repeat it here. You wrote about 25 point-buy. Checking your math:
Stat -> PBSstr 10 -> 0
dex 14 -> 5
con 14 -> 5
int 12 -> 2
wis 7 -> -4
cha 18 -> 17
This adds up to 25, so you are fine here, and I assume that "(all raises to cha)" refers to what you want to do afterwards, so this is level 1 for me.
Suggesting a full caster build, I would change the values this way to be more survivable:
Stat -> PBS
str 10 -> 0
dex 15 -> 7
con 14 -> 5
int 12 -> 3
wis 10 -> 0
cha 16 -> 10
As a race I would pick human, following suggestions assume that. Half-orc is a decent alternative if you can get a standard-action-activated healing item.
+2 from human goes into charisma, bringing your values to
str 10, dex 15, con 14, int 13, wis 10, cha 18.
You will have 2+2+1=5 skill points per level, leaving you the option of putting your favored class bonus into hitpoints. Make sure that each level you put a rank into acrobatics, knowledge arcana, spellcraft, and perception. The remaining skill rank you can assign freely, e.g. into class skills to get the trained bonus.
When you level up, put the first increment into dex, the following two into charisma. This way your AC and CMD and ranged attacks will improve, but you will still be able to cast all levels of spells (character level 15 means you will only go as high as 7th level spells anyway). If you need higher DCs, get them via items or feats like spell focus.
Regarding bloodline, I would suggest to either pick the fey bloodline or the celestial bloodline. The latter is cool for healing, especially when combined with the half-orc race. The fey bloodline has the very usable defensive laughing touch ability. Note that there is no save against it, you only need to touch the opponent who only can take a move action for one round - pretty powerful! Woodland stride will help you move away more easily, fleeting glance allows you to turn invisible, and fey magic will let you reroll any spell resistance roll once at will - really useful!
So I will assume fey bloodline now. The bloodline arcana hints towards compulsion spells, of which you should take a few but not focus too much on.
Feats progression recommended:
1 combat casting -> cast defensively
1h improved initiative -> act first
1b eschew materials -> for free
3 great fortitude -> make those fortitude saves
5 defensive combat training -> at this level it becomes important not to be grapples, tripped etc.
7 dodge* -> higher AC and...
7b mobility* -> move away from danger more savely
9 nimble moves -> 5ft steps in difficult terrains!
11 free to assign...
13 free to assign...
13b free to assign...
15 free to assign...
*take point-blank shot and precise shot if you prefer to go that route
The feats starting at level 11 could be used for weapon focus/dazzling display/intimidate route, metamagic feats like quicken (free from bloodline) or extend or empower, acrobatics (tumble and fly are boosted this way), alertness (detect enemies early), improved great fortitude (reroll that vital fortitude save), endurance/die hard (seems to be improtant for your campaign style) etc.
As traits I would pick focused mind (+2 concentration) and reactionary (+2 initiative).
Starting spells suggested:
0 detect magic
0 read magic
0 prestidigitation
0 dazzle
1 mage armor
1 color spray
Next 1st level spells would be featherfall (you do not want to die after being bullrushed over a cliff, do you?) and shield. Then distribute as I described above. Color spray is better IMO since it's a very powerful offense and will have some effect on your opponents, giving you the chance to get away.
That would be my suggestion. There are many other ways, but multiclassing is not required with this kind of build-up IMO. Hope that helps :-)
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As for perception: Usually it is enough if one or two characters in the party have good perception (often druids or rangers). If they detect an ambush / enemies, they can alarm the rest of the party.
That depends on how his DM runs it. In our games the character get perception checks. Whoever makes it is not surprised, and there is not always enough time to warn the others. So in such a case it does not help for only one or two to have high perception - if they do not roll well enough (i.e. see the ambush from further away) the other characters are still surprised.
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Where is this, did I miss it or is it a book I don't have?
APG, so you don't have it. But if you can get it, it's really the best of all the extra books that have come out IMO, so I really recommend it :-)
Anyway, claiming that a Sor or Wiz with Wsidom 7 is not "survivable" is a little outlandish. I have a Wizard and a Paladin with Wis 7 in my group, use the rules as written as far as ambushes / initiating encounters / Will-saves are concerned and the characters so far (lvl 9/10) had little trouble.If you are consistently getting ambushed without the opportunity to have buffs up, then your party is doing it completely wrong.Saying that they're doing it wrong is unhelpful and without knowing the campaign, a little disrespectful. Depending on situation and character level, it can be more or less impossible to prepare properly.
** spoiler omitted **...
"Rules as written" - I would disagree here. This part of the rules is not so well-defined that there is only one way to do it. I have had more than 6 GMs and they have all run it differently, each claiming to run it according to rules as written. :-P
In some campaigns you might get away with a minus to wisdom and thus will saves. I also won't dispute that in your campaigns there does not seem to be a problem.
But I dare say that when the intention is to build a "survivable" character and the OP consistently has problems surviving with his builds, recommending a minus to one of the two most important saves in the game is not advice to furthering that end :-)
In our campaigns you would be dead pretty quickly with those minuses - even with the paladin bonus. :-/
Thanks everyone you have put a lot of thought into helping me out and I appreciate it.
But I dare say that when the intention is to build a "survivable" character and the OP consistently has problems surviving with his builds, recommending a minus to one of the two most important saves in the game is not advice to furthering that end :-)
In our campaigns you would be dead pretty quickly with those minuses - even with the paladin bonus. :-/
Sure, every character rolls perception. But the encounters where enemies are immediatly in close combat range should be the excepetion. In environments, where ambush is likely, scouts can be employed.
A low will save is not pretty, but if a Wis 7 Paladin with his +5 or more to all saving throws will be "dead pretty quickly" in yor campaigns beacause of his lacking Will save, I assume a Fighter, Rogue or Barbarian won't be a feasible choice at all, right? Since, unless they have Wis 16 or more (highly unlikely), their Will save will be even worse....
My build with wisdom 8, pal 2, and sorc 6 will have will save of +12
8th cleric 22 wis, will save +12
8th fighter or rogue 12 wis and iron will feat, will save +5
Even with the 8 wisdom I will have as good a will save as a straight cleric and much better than almost any non-caster.
I suppose I could 'monkey shine' it higher, but I don't see any need to do that.
Granted if I took your full build without the paladin levels the will save would be only +5, that is still as good as most non-casters. But I would probably want it higher.
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My build with wisdom 8, pal 2, and sorc 6 will have will save of +12
8th cleric 22 wis, will save +12
8th fighter or rogue 12 wis and iron will feat, will save +5
Even with the 8 wisdom I will have as good a will save as a straight cleric and much better than almost any non-caster.
I suppose I could 'monkey shine' it higher, but I don't see any need to do that.
Granted if I took your full build without the paladin levels the will save would be only +5, that is still as good as most non-casters. But I would probably want it higher.
There are two things wrong with this point of view.
1) You are creating a character for a horror AP so you have a better than usual chance of running into a stat draining opponent.
2) As I mentioned earlier in the threasd, you will be casting 1st level sorcerer spells at 5th level, when a wizard would have fireball.
You have basically nerfed yourself as a caster in a quest for survivability which means that encounters that the party should be able to handle without problems (like swarms) will cause the expenditure of more resources than accounted for in CR.
I don't think a build will fix your problem, it sounds like your party doesn't work together to protect the squishies and/or the the players of the squishies are too aggressive.
1) You are creating a character for a horror AP so you have a better than usual chance of running into a stat draining opponent.
That is my biggest concern. But most good caster builds I've seen have at least 1 if not 2 dump stats. Even if I don't dump it, I still wouldn't raise it much either, so that would let me take maybe 1 more hit. I don't know the PF monsters, all that well, but from what I'm hearing different ones drain different abilities. So the odss may not be that bad, I'm not sure about it.
2) As I mentioned earlier in the threasd, you will be casting 1st level sorcerer spells at 5th level, when a wizard would have fireball.
This is a concern. However historically, our group hasn't had a wiz using fireball at level 5 either. We've either had a corpse or a wiz spending all his time buffing or running.
it sounds like your party doesn't work together to protect the squishies...
TO a certain extent that is true. Might be partially because the group has 1 noob (at this game) and 1 that is kinda weak at joint planning.