If you cast a buff on an eidolon, and he gets sent back to his plane. Assuming you re-summon him immediately, does he still have that buff?
If the answer is no, what happens if you cast protection from elements(fire) on yourself, and go to the plane of fire?
Now for the fun question. The Eidolon for the most part can be a crappy caster or a decent tank. Through evolutions he can learn to cast the following spells.
Level 1 - acid splash, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, ray of frost, stabilize, or touch of fatigue.
Level 4 - burning hands, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos/evil/good/law, magic missile, obscuring mist, silent image, vanish [APG] (self only), or ventriloquism
Level 7 - acid arrow, cure moderate wounds, darkness, daze monster, glide [APG], invisibility (self only), lesser restoration, levitate, minor image, scorching ray, see invisibility, or spider climb
Level 11 - arcane sight, create food and water, cure serious wounds, daylight, fireball, fly, gaseous form, lightning bolt, major image, stinking cloud, tongues, or water breathing
Can the eidolon use wands and scrolls that are on his spell list without using use magic device?
Shown below are the rules for wands.
Wand Rules
The rules for scrolls state that you don't even have to be able to cast the spell to utilize them, as long as the spells are on your spell list.
That said, can an Eidolon be in combat form and still have the capability of using wands crafted with his particular spell list in mind, even if he doesn't have the specific evolutions to cast the spell like abilities? (Scroll rules state that it simply has to be available to your list not that you have to know how to cast it.)
What does everyone think?
Other relevant stuff:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
No, and the 2nd question is irrelevant. When you summon the Eidolon, unless it was sent back to it's home plane by damage, it's essentially reset to the condition it was the last time you summoned it. It is not the same thing as your personal planar travel.
If we follow this logic, then when the eidolon takes ability damage, I can dismiss and re-summon him and have all of the ability damage be erased.
Minor Magic Is a Spell Like ability not a spell, Eidolons are not casters just monsters with SLAs
Minor Magic Is a Spell Like ability not a spell, Eidolons are not casters just monsters with SLAs
In most cases, spell like abilities are treated exactly like spells, even when used with feats. Such as the Summoner's ability to summon monsters which benefit from Augment Summoning.
So given that the rules for the use of spell triggers state that you simply have to be able to "cast the corresponding spell" you are saying that casting the spell by a spell like ability, is somehow different from casting the spell using an actual prepared spell.
See here for reference:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
The thing about SLAs is that you must have the SLAs, in order to use wands and scrolls with that corresponding spell.
Maybe, maybe not. But the recent publication of "The Summoner's Circle" allows you to create a variety of Eidolon builds using the "Unstable Evolutions" Feat. If you use that feat, you can theoretically re-select spells each and every time you summon your Eidolon.
Arcane Strike for Rogues
"Arcane strike requires the ability to cast arcane spells as a prerequisite. Spell-like abilities are not arcane spells, despite similarities."
It's a better feat for bards than rogues as a result.
The use of Augment Summoning with the Summoners Summon Monster SLA is the exception to the rule for spell feats and SLAs.
"Arcane strike requires the ability to cast arcane spells as a prerequisite. Spell-like abilities are not arcane spells, despite similarities." ** spoiler omitted **
The use of Augment Summoning with the Summoners Summon Monster SLA is the exception to the rule for spell feats and SLAs.
Yes, you are correct about this. A rogue doesn't have any arcane spell crafting to allow him to take/use that feat. The issue here was a spell trigger for the wand. And spell triggers just require the ability to cast the spell. One could actually say a spell like ability to cast the spell charged into the wand.
After more digging into this (I would like to be wrong as giving an Eidolon a wand of Curing sounds good to me as a player):
Spell Like Abilities
"Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance. ... A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled."
After more digging into this (I would like to be wrong as giving an Eidolon a wand of Curing sounds good to me as a player):
Spell Like Abilities
"Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance. ... A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled."
The activation of a wand requires the use of a spell trigger.
[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems.html#spell-trigger[/url] The text applicable to using a spell trigger is shown below.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Please note that the text does not specify spell casting through a spell like ability or though normal spell casting. It simply says whoever can cast the spell can activate a spell trigger. Furthermore it states that you don't even have to actually be able to cast the spell, as per the Paladin example. I would say that as long as your class can cast the correct spell, then you can use the same wand of that spell.
If you cast a buff on an eidolon, and he gets sent back to his plane. Assuming you re-summon him immediately, does he still have that buff?
Yes, if the duration has not expired. There's no rule stating that all buffs on him immediately end.
Now for the fun question. The Eidolon for the most part can be a crappy caster or a decent tank. Through evolutions he can learn to cast the following spells.
Blah blah blah
Can the eidolon use wands and scrolls that are on his spell list without using use magic device?
No. The Eidolon does not have a spell list and is not a spellcaster. He has evolutions which grant him spell-like abilities, but he does not even have the ability to cast spells. He doesn't even have the ability to cast spell-like abilities unless he specifically takes those evolutions.
He might be able to use the wands if you actually give him the ability to use the corresponding SLA, but in that case you'd probably be better served by getting Skilled [UMD] if you're just trying to use some wands.
Same for scrolls. Eidolons in general being capable of getting evolutions which give them access to SLA versions of particular spells does not constitute a spell list.
He might be able to use the wands if you actually give him the ability to use the corresponding SLA, but in that case you'd probably be better served by getting Skilled [UMD].
Same for scrolls. Eidolons in general being capable of getting evolutions which give them access to SLA versions of particular spells does not constitute a spell list.
I am good with this type of compromise answer.
Let me see
Skilled = +8 1 evo. point
Make UMD a class skill with 1 rank = 1 + 3
UMD +12 before the roll at level 1. DC to use a wand 20.
It is still probably worth the risk.
+12 to umd at lvl 1 is likely better than anyone else can get.
It is indeed. But the Summoner class itself sacrifices level 7-9 spells to be able to do some fun stuff. There might as well be some benefits.
well summoner's are pretty top tier for the first 10 lvls or so. Thats not bad. Later on when your badass minion starts to fall behind and other full progression casters can summon up long term minions and have their keep their high lvl spells, you are slightly worse off. But those first 10 lvls are good times.If you plan to use your eidolon for using wands, would it be better for you to just go master summoner?
Point for point and level for level I would play a druid over a Summoner. Just take an animal companion, it is essentially the same as an eidolon, in some cases better in other cases worse. During the times where the animal companion is worse than the Eidolon the druid can rely on better spell selection. As a druid you also get to Shape change.
I just find it funny that there is so much summoner hate and virtually no druid hate.
That may be a ton of buffs but I dropped their na progression down 5 to account for the allowed armor bonus. So it ended up only a slight buff.
Umm, let's see. First, they're getting about 4/3 as many feats, since they're getting 4/3 as many HD. They're getting about 4/3 as many saving throw increases for the same reason, and skills too. Oh, and all those evolutions which depend on the eidolon's HD, those are better now. HP too. Endgame their armor is the same, since celestial armor counteracts the loss of mage armor and the 5 natural armor you removed (while still allowing for builds with DEX up to 26). They're getting more flexibility in their build - for instance, you can have an eidolon who just uses a bunch of tentacles, and they count as primary because he only has one type of attack. There's no way to classify all of that as a "slight buff." You made the class way more powerful.
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Running on RAW, as you noted:
"Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell."
Eidolon is not a class. It is (at best) a race. Even if the Eidolon has an SLA, the spell is not on his Class Spell List...so no Spell Trigger items.
No reason that UMD wouldn't work though...
Running on RAW, as you noted:
"Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell."
Eidolon is not a class. It is (at best) a race. Even if the Eidolon has an SLA, the spell is not on his Class Spell List...so no Spell Trigger items.
No reason that UMD wouldn't work though...
Actually the technical race would be Outsider. The class that that particular outsider took was Eidolon to bond with and benefit the summoner.
To put it another way. A druid selects a Bear as an animal companion. Is the companion's race Animal Companion? or bear/animal?
Running on RAW, as you noted:
"Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell."
Eidolon is not a class. It is (at best) a race. Even if the Eidolon has an SLA, the spell is not on his Class Spell List...so no Spell Trigger items.
No reason that UMD wouldn't work though...
Actually the technical race would be Outsider. The class that that particular outsider took was Eidolon to bond with and benefit the summoner.
To put it another way. A druid selects a Bear as an animal companion. Is the companion's race Animal Companion? or bear/animal?
Its race would be bear, its type would be animal.
An eidolon is probably the eidolon race, the outsider type.A Balor's race is Balor, his type is outsider.
well they gotta spend a feat on armor to atleast use celestial armor, so in your example they are only getting 1 extra feat. But then they are also spending more money on celestial armor. So that is a pretty neutral change.
And currently their saving throws are terrible. To the point that, only a biped is useable after later lvls since a quadruped maxes out at a base +5 to will save.
Also, those hd based evolutions are currently terrible as well. All I do by boosting their hd is make those evolutions usable. Look at frightful presence for example. RAW, when you get access to it, an eidolon can only make creatures who have 9 hd or less shaken. So currently it is a dc 14 save that only affects 9 hd or less creatures. Unuseable. If it can atleast make 11 hd enemies of a lvl 11 summoner shaken, it has some value(not a ton but atleast some). All this does is turn those abilities into options. Which they currently are not. In a guide
To count it all... so its really,
1. skill point boost
2. a save boost(sorely needed)
3. (5.5+con mod)*5 so ~ 50 extra hp in the end.
4. net armor change of 0.
5. 2 extra feat( 10 feats vs 8)
6. hd related abilities already discussed above.1 is nice but not breaking much. 2 is necessary. 3 is a small change. 4 is no change except now you have to spend atleast 1 feat on armor proficiency and cash on armor(so actually a nerf). 5 is a buff that is atleast partially compensated for by needing to pick up armor proficiency.
I am personally of the mind that if a summoner is going to lose 3 lvls of spells, then his eidolon should be clearly better than an animal companion. So annoying rules that were dropped on the eidolon but not the ac I felt had to go out the window. Just how I dealt with it. A druid is much better anyway since he is like a regular summoner(gets a pet) and a synthesist(wild shape is his own power armor) and he still ahs 9th lvl spells. Further more, the ac doesn't pop inside an antimagic field and it can't be banished. The changes I made do not push...
Devotion. +4 on will saves vs. enchantment effects. That's the most common type of will save to have to make, and eidolons get a flat +4 on it from level 6 onward.
This means at level 20 they essentially have a +9 on will saves whereas a fighter has a +6, without your modifications. Even without devotion, it's +5 for the quadruped eidolon vs. +6 for the fighter. Why does the eidolon need to be a better frontliner than the frontline classes?
Oh, and I forgot that now they'd get 5 ability score increases instead of 3.
The summoner isn't "losing 3 levels of spells" quite. A lot of spells are lower level on the summoner list than on the sorc/wiz list. He doesn't keep up on spells per day, admittedly. He also has Summon Monster, one of the most versatile spells in the game, as a spell-like ability that's way better than the actual spell (it's a standard action and lasts minutes instead of rounds) that he can cast a lot of times per day.
The eidolon is clearly better than the animal companion. At a few of the early levels, and at level 7, you can probably get better animal companions, but after that the eidolon is going to consistently be way better and way more flexible than the animal companion.
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Spell Trigger: ... Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.
Eidolons have no class, they are a class feature. Eidolons have no spell list, they have evolutions that allow them to use a spell like ability and nothing more.
If Eidolons had either a class or a spell list, it would be listed somewhere in the APG. But it has neither.
No, Eidolons cannot use spell trigger items without using the UMD skill.
Evolutions are not a spell list.
Spell Trigger: ... Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.Eidolons have no class, they are a class feature. Eidolons have no spell list, they have evolutions that allow them to use a spell like ability and nothing more.
If Eidolons had either a class or a spell list, it would be listed somewhere in the APG. But it has neither.
No, Eidolons cannot use spell trigger items without using the UMD skill.
Evolutions are not a spell list.
Really? The part of that whole sentence that you are putting all of your emphasis on is class? That seems incredibly narrow minded.
So you are saying, that an eidolon has no trouble whatsoever using a magic missile spell like ability as a spell like ability, but when it comes to activating a magic missile wand whose spell is almost entirely cast, he is dumbfounded?
Can a dragon also not figure out how to use magic items with spell triggers because he doesn't have a class he is simply a dragon?
That is not what we are saying. We are saying that the Gold Dragon has spell-like abilities which cannot be used to activate a wand and spells that can. See the Ancient Gold dragon
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 26th):At will—bless, daylight, detect evil, geas/quest, sunburst (DC 25)
Spells Known (CL 15th)
7th (5/day)—greater teleport, resurrection
6th (7/day)—antimagic field, greater dispel magic, heal
5th (7/day)—dispel evil, plane shift, teleport, true seeing
4th (7/day)—divination, restoration, spell immunity, stoneskin
3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, haste, invisibility purge, prayer
2nd (8/day)—aid, cure moderate wounds, lesser restoration, resist energy, silence
1st (8/day)—alarm, divine favor, mage armor, shield, shield of faith
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, mending, stabilize, 6 more
That is not what we are saying. We are saying that the Gold Dragon has spell-like abilities which cannot be used to activate a wand and spells that can. See the Ancient Gold dragon
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 26th):At will—bless, daylight, detect evil, geas/quest, sunburst (DC 25)
Spells Known (CL 15th)
7th (5/day)—greater teleport, resurrection
6th (7/day)—antimagic field, greater dispel magic, heal
5th (7/day)—dispel evil, plane shift, teleport, true seeing
4th (7/day)—divination, restoration, spell immunity, stoneskin
3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, haste, invisibility purge, prayer
2nd (8/day)—aid, cure moderate wounds, lesser restoration, resist energy, silence
1st (8/day)—alarm, divine favor, mage armor, shield, shield of faith
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, mending, stabilize, 6 more
And a Gold Dragon which can cast those spell like abilities is more than capable of utilizing a spell trigger for those spell like abilities.
As a GM you can always make that choice, but RAW it cannot, as SLAs are not spells.
The exception, explicitly stated in its description is the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA - why would the extra wording if all SLAs had that functionality?
Mogart, I'm not even getting how you could possibly think your argument is valid, when the RAW contradicts you in a 100% definitive fashion. There isn't even a little bit of gray-area. This is one thing the RAW is completely literal on, there is no other way to interpret it.
Whether I hit someone with a magic missile spell or a magic missile spell like ability, they were still hit with magic missile as per the spell, that is how the argument is valid.
The reason I am being so stubborn about it is the same reason that I was being stubborn about the fact that you can't treat a monk as a weapon that can be enchanted. It is also the same reason that when one of my players wanted to have a hammer with one or more bear traps attached to it I said no.
Namely the idea seems inherently wrong to me, if you can cast a spell then you know how to utilize the spell trigger for that spell.
How about the rules for creation of a magic item. Specifically this text.
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item's caster level.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
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So by the current arguments presented, a SLA can be used to create a wand but knowledge of how to cast that spell can't be used to trigger it.
So by the current arguments presented, a SLA can be used to create a wand but knowledge of how to cast that spell can't be used to trigger it.Incorrect.
A creature with a SLA that casts haste could use it to make boots of speed, but could not use it to make a scroll of haste, wand of haste or the like.
You'll want to go further in the magic item creation section to each individual creation feats (arms/armor, potions, etc).
-James
I have looked through the methods of making magic items, and I don't see what you are referring to. The only vague inference of it is that the creation feats seem to mention Sorcerers and Bards. I am fairly sure that anyone of magical talent with the appropriate feats can create magic items not just Sorcerers and Bards. I will grant you that using SLAs to create magic items isn't done often, but there is at least one mention that yes it can be done under the requirements section in item creation feats. The feats in general say that you can use SLAs to make them but there is no one entry in which SLAs are specifically mentioned for armor/wondrous/potions/scrolls/rings/wands/rods/staves.
However under the requirements section of item creation it specifically states that SLAs can be used.
So essentially if we continue the current flow of the logic presented herein, either SLAs can't be used to make any magic items at all or they can be used to make magic items even if not specifically mentioned in each individual item creation text. Unless there are magic items that aren't under the sub headings armor, weapons, potions, rings, rods, staves, wondrous item,and wands.