More controversial Eidolon questions


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mdt wrote:
Zeden wrote:
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs). Let me bring out that it only states "Attack" instead of "Attacks." Each form only gets one primary ATTACK! and being that they get this are first lvl if it was 2 attacks the base form has already spent 2 of your 3 attacks for lvl 1

LOL

I've seen this cheese before. My response was..

Sure, that's fine. You have one Attack called 2 claws. It does 1d4. Not 1d4 twice, just 1d4. It's singular, so those '2 claws' is one attack, and the 1d4 is how much the one attack does.

If you want the 2 claws to do 1d4 each, then it's two attacks, and it counts toward your max.

Look, man, I'm the biggest hater of the eidolons! That's why I say it's broken (I know a LOT about it), but no, its one attack that does a total of 2 1d4s plus STR. You're confusing the natural attacks with weapon attacks. They do not work the same. And besides, if it counted as two attacks towards the maximum, it would cost more than one point. True, they have the capability of doing more damage than a single bite, but they have the disadvantage of BOTH having to hit. So, there's some crackers for your CHEESE, and if you keep on, then I'm gonna break out the WINE!


Or you could look at the claws evolution and see that it gives 2 attacks:
"Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution."

or does the Grizzly Bear only get one strike with its claws "Melee 2 claws +7 (1d6+5 plus grab), bite +7 (1d6+5)"


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zeden wrote:
mdt wrote:
Zeden wrote:
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs). Let me bring out that it only states "Attack" instead of "Attacks." Each form only gets one primary ATTACK! and being that they get this are first lvl if it was 2 attacks the base form has already spent 2 of your 3 attacks for lvl 1

LOL

I've seen this cheese before. My response was..

Sure, that's fine. You have one Attack called 2 claws. It does 1d4. Not 1d4 twice, just 1d4. It's singular, so those '2 claws' is one attack, and the 1d4 is how much the one attack does.

If you want the 2 claws to do 1d4 each, then it's two attacks, and it counts toward your max.

Look, man, I'm the biggest hater of the eidolons! That's why I say it's broken (I know a LOT about it), but no, its one attack that does a total of 2 1d4s plus STR. You're confusing the natural attacks with weapon attacks. They do not work the same. And besides, if it counted as two attacks towards the maximum, it would cost more than one point. True, they have the capability of doing more damage than a single bite, but they have the disadvantage of BOTH having to hit. So, there's some crackers for your CHEESE, and if you keep on, then I'm gonna break out the WINE!

Nope, you have to hit with each claw. That requires an attack roll per 1d4. I'm sorry, but you want your cake and you want to eat it as well.

Situation 1 : It's one attack. Then you get the listed Damage, 1d4. It requires one attack roll.

Situation 2 : It's two claws, each is an attack, each does 1d4, and each requires an attack roll.

So go drink your own wine and drink your sorrows away.

EDIT :

Just to pour salt on the wound.

PRD wrote:


Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.

See the bolded bit, two attacks.

PRD wrote:


Biped

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).

Note the 2 claws (1d4) attack comes from the free evolution, claws. Which is spelled out above as two attacks, not one.

EDIT EDIT :

Completely didn't see David Thomassen's post. Ninja'd before my edit even.


David Thomassen wrote:

Or you could look at the claws evolution and see that it gives 2 attacks:

"Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution."

or does the Grizzly Bear only get one strike with its claws "Melee 2 claws +7 (1d6+5 plus grab), bite +7 (1d6+5)"

Yep pretty much. If you have a pair of arms (2 evo. pts.) and you have a set of claws (1 evo. pt.) you have spent 3 points on 2 attacks. Yes it is 2 attacks.

Interestingly, pounce for the eidolon is written differently than it is in the bestiary. (No rake attacks)

Rend is also written differently. (No limit)

And the rake attack specifically counts as 1 attack, as is written in the evolution. It is 2 attacks that count as 1.

Thoughts?


Morgat, I agree with you :) [Well a Biped does get limbs(Arms) for free, but for additional attacks it is 3 points to get 2 claw attacks]

It was Zeden's statement that I had issue with:
"Look, man, I'm the biggest hater of the eidolons! That's why I say it's broken (I know a LOT about it), but no, its one attack that does a total of 2 1d4s plus STR. - Claw Evolution gives 2 attacks.

You're confusing the natural attacks with weapon attacks. They do not work the same. - Only for not getting attack iterations for BABs >5

And besides, if it counted as two attacks towards the maximum, it would cost more than one point. True, they have the capability of doing more damage than a single bite, but they have the disadvantage of BOTH having to hit. So, there's some crackers for your CHEESE, and if you keep on, then I'm gonna break out the WINE!

Lots of the abilities of the Eidolon are different from the Bestiary, more the pitty. It would have been nice if they used the universal monster rules, but them are the breaks.


David Thomassen wrote:
Mogart, I agree with you :)

It was bound to happen eventually. :)

If you want a flavorful eidolon go with a biped give it tentacles on its face (at least 4) and wings.
You have your very own Cthuluhu!!

If you are a blizzard fan, go for a quadruped, give it an extra set of arms with claws, fast healing,and give it burrow. Now you have a pet Zergling!!

Hydralisk is probably doable, except for the ranged attack. Serpentine, arms, claws, bite, fast healing,and burrow.

Non-ranged hydralisk!


I originally liked the idea of a Hekatonkheires wielding Dwarven Maulaxes, but a quadruped rending machine is hard to beat.

Mogart, we do appear to look at things differently, but that is good - it gets me to re-read and re-think things. It is also why I link to rules or examples when I can (I do like to be right.)


mdt wrote:
Zeden wrote:
mdt wrote:
Zeden wrote:
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs). Let me bring out that it only states "Attack" instead of "Attacks." Each form only gets one primary ATTACK! and being that they get this are first lvl if it was 2 attacks the base form has already spent 2 of your 3 attacks for lvl 1

LOL

I've seen this cheese before. My response was..

Sure, that's fine. You have one Attack called 2 claws. It does 1d4. Not 1d4 twice, just 1d4. It's singular, so those '2 claws' is one attack, and the 1d4 is how much the one attack does.

If you want the 2 claws to do 1d4 each, then it's two attacks, and it counts toward your max.

Look, man, I'm the biggest hater of the eidolons! That's why I say it's broken (I know a LOT about it), but no, its one attack that does a total of 2 1d4s plus STR. You're confusing the natural attacks with weapon attacks. They do not work the same. And besides, if it counted as two attacks towards the maximum, it would cost more than one point. True, they have the capability of doing more damage than a single bite, but they have the disadvantage of BOTH having to hit. So, there's some crackers for your CHEESE, and if you keep on, then I'm gonna break out the WINE!

Nope, you have to hit with each claw. That requires an attack roll per 1d4. I'm sorry, but you want your cake and you want to eat it as well.

Situation 1 : It's one attack. Then you get the listed Damage, 1d4. It requires one attack roll.

Situation 2 : It's two claws, each is an attack, each does 1d4, and each requires an attack roll.

So go drink your own wine and drink your sorrows away.

EDIT :

Just to pour salt on the wound.

PRD wrote:


Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two
...

N Huge outsider

Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +18
DEFENSE

AC 35, touch 12, flat-footed 31 (+0 armor, +0 deflection, +4 Dex, +23 natural, -2 size)
hp 187 (15d10+105)
Defensive Abilities improved evasion; Fort +15, Ref +13, Will +5; +4 vs. enchantment
SR 31
OFFENSE

Speed 40 ft., fly 80 ft (poor)
Melee +34/+29/+24 +5 huge greataxe (4d6+27/x3), bite +31 (2d6+27), 6 claws +32 (1d8+12 plus grab)
Power Attack +30/+25/+20 +5 huge greataxe (4d6+39/x3), bite +27 (2d6+39), 6 claws +28 (1d8+16 plus grab)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks pounce
STATISTICS

Str 40, Dex 18, Con 22, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +15; CMB +32 (+36 grapple, +34 trip); CMD 46 (52 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Lunge, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greataxe), MultiattackB, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (greataxe, pincers)
Skills Fly +14, Knowledge (planes) +16, Perception +18, Stealth +14
Languages Common
SQ evolutions (see right panel),
Gear +5 amulet of mighty fists, +5 huge greataxe

bite - free*
limbs (legs) x2 - free*
Pounce - 1*
1
Limbs (arms) x3 - 6*
7
Claws (legs, arms) x 3- 3*
10
bite - 1*
11
huge - 10*
21
spell resistance - 4*
25
flight (wings, +40 spd) - 4*
29
grab (claws) - 2*
31

This is an eidolon creation from the Collaborator Messageboard. Note that by the time they had 11 evolution points (level six eidolon has nine normally, and gets an additional two from the Summoner being a half-elf), the eidolon was only level six. The level six Eidolon natural attack limit is four: 3 sets of claws, and a bite attack. So, there's my ice cream, my cake, AND my MF'ing pop-tarts!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zeden wrote:
This is an eidolon creation from the Collaborator Messageboard. Note that by the time they had 11 evolution points (level six eidolon has nine normally, and gets an additional two from the Summoner being a half-elf), the eidolon was only level six. The level six Eidolon natural attack limit is four: 3 sets of claws, and a bite attack. So, there's my ice cream, my cake, AND my MF'ing pop-tarts!

So you are saying that your entire basis for your insistence on misreading the very plain and clear text of the abilities is a forum post on a third party site, posted by someone else (assuming it's not yourself that posted it).

A) Someone misread the rules.
B) If the program allows this, then the programmer screwed up.
C) Your MF'ing pop-tarts have feces on them, I would suggest not eating them. (Translation, your logic is s***ty).

Honestly, that's the most ridiculous logic I've ever seen. "Hey guys, this forum post on another site says my way of doing it is right, and that the rules are wrong! So hahaha I win!"


There's absolutely no sense in which two claws can be considered to be one natural attack. It's the same natural attack FORM, but two different natural attacks.

Even the two rake attacks from rake are two natural attacks. They just COUNT as one attack against the eidolon's limit due to a specific exception in their rules text.


/me tries to beat Morgat to the punch (And was ninja'd by 3 others)
Max Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.

6th Level Summoner, Eidolon Max attacks =4 - not 3 sets of claws and a bite (See below)

Half Elf 6 x 0.25 = 1.5 which rounds down to 1, so the build is off by one point.

With a BAB of 15 this is a 19th or 20th Level Summoner. Again assuming the Half Elf & 20th Level 20x 0.25 = +5 so a max of 31 points - so thats ok.

7 Natural attacks? Yup, oh look its claws are doing 2 attacks per evolution.

2 Arms free to Weild Great Axe - yup

Wasted Feat - Weapon Focus (Pincers), yup - assume WF (Claws)

Natural Attacks: BAB (+15) + Size (-2) + Strength (+15) + Attacking with Manufactured Weapon & having Multi-Attack (-2) + Amulet of Mighty Fists (+5) = 15-2+15-2+5 = +31
Damage = 1/2 Strenght (+7) + Amulet (+5) = +12
So the Bite Damage is wrong, the Claws are good.

I could go on, but you have made my point about the basic claw evolution - it grants 2 attacks.


To Zeden, even if the stat block say 1 attack that is not rules text. It gets over ruled by actual rules text in the evolutions section.

If you need an attack roll it is a separate natural attack. Like I said the only place where there is an exception is in the Rake evolution. Without that exception RAW claws are 2 natural attacks.


It is a decent build, but when you keep in mind that it is level 20 the power tends to fall away from it. Just pop that monstrosity with any sort of will save and laugh, its level 20 Will save is a +5.

It is also somewhat surprising that you didn't go for UMD, as the Eidolon is uniquely equipped to use it well.

Don't get me wrong it is a fun build, it just isn't one that I would want to use. Just ask yourself one question, will the Eidolon be able to make his will save or not?

Do you feel lucky?......punk

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed some posts. Don't be a jerk.

Also, flag it and move on.


I thought the point of the Collaborator board was for putting things together and getting reviewed. Since there's no link to where that info was from, it's hard to say whether that one has been reviewed yet or not.
Also, it's possible it's old information. Beta rules for Summoners were out for a long time, and most of the Beta test was done with no cap on number of attacks. If this was made before the change, then it was technically correct at the time it was made.


The Eidolon posted by Zeden has the correct number of natural attacks and 2 arms free to weild the great axe. That was not the issue.
The issue was with Zeden's iterpretation of "You have one Attack called 2 claws. It does 1d4. Not 1d4 twice, just 1d4. It's singular, so those '2 claws' is one attack, and the 1d4 is how much the one attack does."
Even the Eidolon he posted in defence of his argument broke that rule (3 points spent on 3 claw evolutions, giving 6 claw attacks).

There was also some discussion as to could you buy unlimited potential natural attacks "Max Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons." - So at most it can have Max Attacks(Natural) plus 1 (But still only use Max Attacks(Natural))

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