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So here's my Idea (and something I'd like to do for my upcoming campaign).
Going through the races, and anything that is cultural and/or something that is learned, gets taken out and replaced, and the races are adjusted to be the same power level without the culture built in. At the moment, different races have different amounts of cultural abilities. My goal is to have none of it prepackaged into the races.
Cultural aspects of races are moved into traits or feats. Then if the GM would like, he can grant a couple additional traits at level 1 that have to come from the cultural section.
By doing it this way, there can be mechanical differences between dwarves and elves from different countries, without having to redesign the race for each one. Additionally, if your dwarf was raised in say: Cheliax, (and there are no dwarven cultures in cheliax) the GM could allow you to have some chelish cultural abilities instead. Because you never had the chance to learn dwarven weapons, orc and goblin hatred, or how to dodge giants.
It also deals with the desire some people have for an elf for every day of the week, without making it take alot of work, or making it only apply to elves.
Is there any interest in this, or is it just me?
Is there any interest in this, or is it just me?
I've been trying to do something like this for a while now. In the campaign I run, I have a completely customized/ standardized each race to better balance the races (for the purposes of my high fantasy epic powered campaign). Each race essentially has four "super" feats: one which represents a single +2 ability bonus, two +2 skill bonuses, one class-like ability (smite, favored prey, rage, etc), and one +2 resistance to something (poison, illusion, tripping, etc). I allow my PCs to mix and match attributes and abilities if they see fit to create unique hybrids or half-breeds if they desire, so long as the final product adds up to four.
This should definitely be implemented into Pathfinder 2.0. O_O I've thought about it before, but never considered a way to fix it beyond rebuilding the race entirely. I've never liked that ALL dwarves had the same racial traits, even if they weren't born or raised in mountain tunnels. Same goes for other races.
Excellent idea. Perhaps a good community project to get started up?
So here's my Idea (and something I'd like to do for my upcoming campaign).
Going through the races, and anything that is cultural and/or something that is learned, gets taken out and replaced, and the races are adjusted to be the same power level without the culture built in. At the moment, different races have different amounts of cultural abilities. My goal is to have none of it prepackaged into the races.
...
Is there any interest in this, or is it just me?
I'm interested, and have thought about possibly creating "environment/culture" templates for various races that can incorporate part of their starting abilities. I haven't gotten very far, though :) .
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This is a good idea, but to be honest the idea is what the alternate racial traits are in the APG. They are supposed to represent the differences in the races from different areas.
Examples:
An elf from the deserts of Osirion would have the Desert Runner racial trait. Where as an elf that lives in Kyonin would have the Eternal Grudge or Lightbringer traits. And finally an elf from the Mwangi would have the Woodcraft trait.
So you wouldn't really have to completely redesign a race, you could just create one or two alternate racial traits for them based on location.
I like the idea of cutting out all the cultural (or "nurture") abilities, to an extent. It gets kinda weird depending on how far into it you think. Like, the Hardy racial trait- is that because a Dwarf is born with a naturally strong disposition, or is it a product of their formative years? I always thought of it as the latter, but it could go either way.
Examples:
An elf from the deserts of Osirion would have the Desert Runner racial trait. Where as an elf that lives in Kyonin would have the Eternal Grudge or Lightbringer traits. And finally an elf from the Mwangi would have the Woodcraft trait.
You can do that, but I'm not sure it goes far enough. These traits are fairly minor, and imo don't differentiate different archetypes nearly well enough. I realize we are talking fantasy races, but most non-human races are already shoehorned in roles much too small for the different archetypes there may be.
The core dwarves are insular mountain dwarves, stubborn and with acute senses, but distrustful. Merchant dwarves of the cities might not necessarily have that bonus to wisdom or the penalty to charisma, and quite a few other things. Likewise, PF elves are what I'd call "urban" elves, with lower constitution and higher intelligence - their kin who spend their whole life toughing it out in the forest or deserts in primitive tribal societies have little reason to have either. Gnomes can also be steampunk-ish inventors trading the bonus to charisma for one to intelligence. Why not? For all of these there have been various books, movies, etc that make them every bit as valid as the "core" modifiers in the pathfinder rulebook. As I see it, humans have bonus feats and floating attribute bonus exactly to simulate the near-endless variety of cultures and tribes. Demihumans can have a bit more variety without impinging on humans' schtick :) .
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Examples:
An elf from the deserts of Osirion would have the Desert Runner racial trait. Where as an elf that lives in Kyonin would have the Eternal Grudge or Lightbringer traits. And finally an elf from the Mwangi would have the Woodcraft trait.You can do that, but I'm not sure it goes far enough. These traits are fairly minor, and imo don't differentiate different archetypes nearly well enough. I realize we are talking fantasy races, but most non-human races are already shoehorned in roles much too small for the different archetypes there may be.
The core dwarves are insular mountain dwarves, stubborn and with acute senses, but distrustful. Merchant dwarves of the cities might not necessarily have that bonus to wisdom or the penalty to charisma, and quite a few other things. Likewise, PF elves are what I'd call "urban" elves, with lower constitution and higher intelligence - their kin who spend their whole life toughing it out in the forest or deserts in primitive tribal societies have little reason to have either. Gnomes can also be steampunk-ish inventors trading the bonus to charisma for one to intelligence. Why not? For all of these there have been various books, movies, etc that make them every bit as valid as the "core" modifiers in the pathfinder rulebook. As I see it, humans have bonus feats and floating attribute bonus exactly to simulate the near-endless variety of cultures and tribes. Demihumans can have a bit more variety without impinging on humans' schtick :) .
But the problem with this is that the races are setting specific, though the core rulebook is supposed to be setting neutral they are based off of what the races are in Golarion. Including the racial ability modifiers.
Gnomes in Golarion would never be "Steampunk", they would be Gnomes who specialize in pyrotechnics or academics and would probably hail from the Mana Wastes, hence the Academician, Master Tinker, or Pyromaniac traits.
Now I can see making more alternate racial abilities to help represent different locations but changing the race like you are suggesting wouldn't be any different than just making a completely new one, or just making a single customizable race.
But the problem with this is that the races are setting specific, though the core rulebook is supposed to be setting neutral they are based off of what the races are in Golarion. Including the racial ability modifiers.
The thing is, I think Golarion is big enough that bigger variations - up to and including some ability modifiers - are possible. Even if it isn't, the pathfinder system should be, because as a system it should be able to cover different settings. I'd like to see, for example, each race currently having two positive modifiers have one positive, and a chance of one or a few combinations of a positive and negative. Some things would stay the same An elf would always have a dexterity bonus and bonuses to perception rolls, a dwarf would always have high constitution, etc. The question is how much can be changed. Our games need not be limited to Golarion - or, for that matter, to the stereotypes of Golarion you or I may hold.
I like the idea of a city dwarf having a bonus to intellect and penalty to dexterity, if dwarves are merchants and bankers. Likewise for gnomes' eccentricity showing itself more via intellectual pursuits, savage halflings or toughened forest elves. IMO a lot of the races have more social influences than the current replacement traits can account for.
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But the problem with this is that the races are setting specific, though the core rulebook is supposed to be setting neutral they are based off of what the races are in Golarion. Including the racial ability modifiers.The thing is, I think Golarion is big enough that bigger variations - up to and including some ability modifiers - are possible. Even if it isn't, the pathfinder system should be, because as a system it should be able to cover different settings. I'd like to see, for example, each race currently having two positive modifiers have one positive, and a chance of one or a few combinations of a positive and negative. Some things would stay the same An elf would always have a dexterity bonus and bonuses to perception rolls, a dwarf would always have high constitution, etc. The question is how much can be changed. Our games need not be limited to Golarion - or, for that matter, to the stereotypes of Golarion you or I may hold.
I like the idea of a city dwarf having a bonus to intellect and penalty to dexterity, if dwarves are merchants and bankers. Likewise for gnomes' eccentricity showing itself more via intellectual pursuits, savage halflings or toughened forest elves. IMO a lot of the races have more social influences than the current replacement traits can account for.
I really like this idea. I would probably place it as Elves with Int though, so that Halflings could take Dex and Gnomes would get Cha. I would even consider leaving the option open of NOT taking a second + and as a result not getting a second minus.
Well, it depends if you think it's a bad thing for bonuses to match. Personally, I think a dexterity bonus can work for elves and halflings alike - it's the intelligence one that bugs me. It might be fine enough for the Forlorn or the Kyonin elves, but not those of the Mwangi or those grey masked ones, whoever they were. Having only a plus and no minus could work imo, at least for elves and dwarves - the small races may be "predisposed" towards having lower strength, although their weapon size and carrying capacity is already affected.
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Well, it depends if you think it's a bad thing for bonuses to match. Personally, I think a dexterity bonus can work for elves and halflings alike - it's the intelligence one that bugs me. It might be fine enough for the Forlorn or the Kyonin elves, but not those of the Mwangi or those grey masked ones, whoever they were. Having only a plus and no minus could work imo, at least for elves and dwarves - the small races may be "predisposed" towards having lower strength, although their weapon size and carrying capacity is already affected.
Ah, yes. The small races may need to have a "locked" strength minus. Maybe they should just get two arbitrary bonus stats? So a gnome could pick Dex/Int as quickly as Con/Wis?
Then we have the following locked: Dwarves (+2 Con), Elves (+2 Dex), Halflings (-2 Str), Gnomes (-2 Str)
Obviously halflings/gnomes will always be picking two bonuses, but dwarves/elves might stay where they are. Though the idea of a -2 Str/+2 Cha dwarf amuses me.
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What they Should have in the DMG on Culture and Civilization is something along the lines of these:
A. THE CIVILIZATION AS A WHOLE
Technological Advances
1. The development of many new artistic forms and designs to express symbols of the earthly and supernatural power of urban centres.
2. The building of increasingly larger and more complex structures in the form of Store Houses, Palaces, Temples, Monuments to heroes and gods, and large scale public irrigation, water supply and drainage systems.
3. The invention and development arithmetic and geometry for complex record keeping, making estimations of the value of food and tools, and for building, making precise calendars, and measuring the passage of time.
4. The Development of Writing as a means of expressing rules for the new forms of social organization in growing urban centres and as a way to keep records of supernatural and political justifications for the new rules and their associated ruling elites.
Sociological improvements
1. A growing specialization of work combined with a developing local system within a town for the exchange and distribution of special objects and products.
2. Growth of Social integration amongst a rapidly expanding population in urban centres.
3. The development of trade networks for the exchange of goods and services with nearby urban centres.
4. The invention of rules for the collection and transport to a central urban centre of the surpluses of food produced by farmers and herders.
5. The Growth of political and religious leadership and membership in special organizations, as continuous residence in an urban centre began to replace social relations based on family and kinship – that is, the growth and differentiation of a “citizenship” in an urban centre began to replace personal identification through kinship.
6. The growth of a small ruling elite or class with privileges of access to material goods and to travel, special education and social deference from other ‘citizens’ of an urban centre, or group of centres.
B. THE RULING CASTE
MONARCHICAL ABSOLUTISM. The King or independent Chief enjoys absolute power.
EMINENT DOMAIN. All land, Livestock, and Game are the property of the monarch providing a right to income.
DIVINE AUTHORITY. The Ruler is a divine power or has access to divine Power.
RITUAL ISOLATION. The Monarch resides in physical isolation with a few attendants to do the Monarchs Bidding. Meetings involve acts of isolation by curtains, designated speakers,
INSIGNIA OF OFFICE. Royal status is displayed through symbolic regalia,
CAPITAL TOWNS. The Monarch resides in a capital and new rulers establish a new capital or residence.
ROYAL COURTS. The Monarch maintains a Court with assorted specialized staff. Pages, guards, chamberlains, etc.
PROTOCOL. Behaviour in the presence almost universally requires conformity to a process of behaviour. Indirect Interaction, Gifts, Abject Prostration, etc.
HAREMS. The ruler has a great many wives and or concubines.
QUEENS. At most royal courts a queen mother, a queen consort, a Queen Sister enjoy prestige sometimes outranking the Monarch. They will likely have their own estates and enjoy some political authority.
TERRITORIAL BUREACRACY. For Administrative purposes, the state is divided into administrative provinces with their own officials tasked with taxation and labour management. Such provinces will be subordinate to a central authority.
MINISTERS. Located in the Capital they work as assistants to the Monarch in the central Bureaucracy.
DUALITY OF ROLES. Ministers function in an assortment of areas of the bureaucracy.
TITLES. Hereditary or Term of Service.
SECURITY. Rivals for the throne are killed, imprisoned, or deported to maintain stability.
ELECTORAL SUCCESSION. Though the Monarch designates an Heir, the final say is in the hands of ministers.
PERIOD OF MOURNING. After the death of the Monarch. A period of social disorder occurs when candidates vie for power.
HECATOMB. Funerary Rites for a Monarch include acts of sacrifice, sometimes large scale slaughter.
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Assuming that you're referencing humans, no matter the culture they are one race - humans. Race is such a bad term to use. However, even using a cultural basis as a replacement isn't really the right term either. I'm American which certainly is a cultural aspect, but I'm also an American from the Southwestern portion of the nation and my cultural understanding, ideas and even dialects are different than those in Boston or the South. Often, a village 10 miles away from a major city in the Phillipines doesn't even speak a language that has identifiable words in which both can communicate easily.
So even the lines of Taldan, Ulfen and so forth don't apply nicely. Plus, the whole thing about affairs and naughty men and women often means that while one might believe they are tied to a particular cultural determination, they very well may not.
Worse, I have no answers to my thoughts nor even a better way to explain racial/cultural determinations. I do like where you are headed here though.
Now if we'd all just follow the One True Path of Theocrat Issak we'd all be Issakians, a cultural hegemony under my misguidance.
Theocrat Issak
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I like some of these Ideas.
I was going to leave the stat bonuses alone but be willing to change up the other stuff.
You guys are right, some of it could go either way on the born with or learned talent.
So I was going to make decisions about which are which on a case by case basis, and replace the abilities that are not innate with ones that are.
Cause yeah, some of the variations may not fit into golarion, but if I'm not running an AP, I dont use golarion (Though I may import Cheliax and add Cayden Cailean to the list of available gods.)
But when I'm not running a PF AP, I either use the Forgotten Realms, or I use a homebrew setting.
It's also occurred to me that I'm going to need to power up *ALL* of the races for my fall game, since I want a race of large size humanoid(Giant) to be available, as well as a few races with nonstandard types (devil, fey, monstrous humanoid, undead).
VoodooMike's guide mostly says don't do it, but I think that guideline changes if you bump all the available races up to 15 or 20 points (and have cultures on top of that). For the standard races that I do (and I may end up doing all of them) I'll do a "10 point" version thats equivalent to what they had before, as well as my powered up version to allow for devils, etc.
I'm not sure I'm going to use VM's guide though. I'm contemplating using UK'c Challenging Challenge Ratings v5 instead. It's much more fleshed out, it may have been build for 3.5, but the only things that changed are the point totals you're shooting for. (It can do races, Classes, AND Monsters.) Additionally the guide that's in Trailblazer is good material to help with it (UK and WulfRatbane worked together alot over on ENWorld.)