Diplomacy and Intimidate

[W E Ray]

DMs, when you run your games do you allow your PCs with Intimidate assist the other PCs using Diplomacy?

I was completely shocked when I found out about a DM who would not allow the Orc Barbarian with Intimidate to assist the other PCs using Diplomacy. That's just wrong.

Here's my reasoning:

Good Cop vs Bad Cop is a concept everyone knows and knows that it works!!!
One cop is making the Diplomacy check; the other cop is assisting with the Intimidate check.
Duh!

But there's an important Metagame reason also.

The PC who has a Racial bonus to Intimidate and has spent Skill Ranks, Feats (such as Skill Focus), and perhaps a Trait -- not to mention building his PC so that CHA isn't his dump stat so he can get an awesome Intimidate score -- HAS to be given opportunities to use it!

And when he's in the same party as the Paladin with the high CHA and huge Diplomacy score they both HAVE to be given opportunities to use them.

How many DMs out there allow Diplomacy and Intimidate to work together?

-------------------------

And for the many DMs who Houserule that a PC can substitute their STR mod for their CHA mod for Intimidate (w/ or w/out a Feat), how do you do it?

[Trinam]

I'm okay with this; it's a check to aid another check and seems completely plausible.

The STR over CHA for intimidation is something I allow with a trait.

[snobi]

Complete Adventurer:

"Skill Synergy
In addition to helping a character’s own skill checks, skill
synergies can be used to aid the checks of allies as well.
A character with 5 or more ranks in a skill that offers a
bonus on another skill due to synergy can make a check
using the first skill to aid the skill that would normally
receive the bonus from synergy. For example, Soveliss
the 2nd-level ranger could make a Handle Animal check
to aid Jozan’s Ride check (using the aid another rules
described above and in the Player’s Handbook), because
a character with 5 ranks in Handle Animal gains a +2
bonus on Ride checks due to synergy. See Table 4–5: Skill
Synergies, page 66 of the Player’s Handbook.

The normal rules for aiding another still apply. For
instance, even if Krusk the barbarian had 5 ranks in
Handle Animal, he couldn’t use it to aid Vadania the
druid’s wild empathy check, because Krusk can’t make
a wild empathy check himself. Some combinations may
be difficult to imagine, but the DM should allow any
synergistic aid another attempt that seems reasonable.
For instance, it might seem odd at first glance for Mialee
to use Spellcraft to assist Lidda’s Use Magic Device check
when reading a scroll—until you imagine the wizard
leaning over the rogue’s shoulder, helping her sound out
the tougher words."

In 3.5, there was no skill synergy between Intimidate and Diplomacy, so it would be a DM's call per the bold. I would allow it.

[gbonehead]

Sure, I'd allow it, the whole good cop/bad cop thing makes perfect sense.

I'd also make darn sure that the Intimidating character takes the full penalty of using Intimidate. After all, the target of a bad cop routine is going to remember that bad cop for a long time.

There are side effects of using Intimidate on someone - if you want the benefit of Intimidate but not the penalty, then it sounds like you're trying to game the system.

[Vendis]

I think that your example is the clearest form of aiding allies with skill checks. I don't understand why someone wouldn't allow it.

My group offers a solution to the Cha vs Str problem. At character creation, you are allowed to choose one and have it stick. We also give Weapon Finesse as a free feat as well, if they choose it. However, the choice doesn't change - if you somehow take ability damage, you can't suddenly swap to the other because it's more beneficial.

Our rational is that you would probably always rely on your scary demeanor and not your force of personality or have been taught to fight nimbly and not with pure strength.

[Allia Thren]

It depends! In good cop/bad cop situations, aka getting info from a prisoner it makes sense, and should work.

If the paladin is negotiating a better reward with the king and suddenly the half-orc tries to help "MORGOK BREAK SCRAWNY HUMAN'S SPINE NOW!" ... yeah, not so much.

[EWHM]

Most folks I know who run games don't use the RAW for Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, or Sense Motive. They simply use what your skill level in that skill is to pigeonhole you into one of several categories, usually associated with a person that they've had some experience with (former presidents like Reagan and Clinton are popular choices) and decide based on your roleplaying how outrageous a feat of persuasion, BS, or intimidation you're trying to carry off. The die roll is often not even used and generally handwaved in any case.

The key issue is that the social mechanics don't have sufficient capital in most GM's minds to allow the success or failure of anything really significant to hang off of them. That and diplomancers pretty well poisoned the well long ago ;-)

[Jim Groves]

I would allow it. I'd explain why in great length, but I find the logic presented in the first post to be pretty sufficient.

Seriously, if that is the player's reasoning, it demonstrates an intelligent use of mechanics to actually augment actual role-playing.

That type of thinking needs to be encouraged, not shut down.

[Kinithin]

Jim Groves wrote:

Seriously, if that is the player's reasoning, it demonstrates an intelligent use of mechanics to actually augment actual role-playing.

That type of thinking needs to be encouraged, not shut down.

++